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Old 02-19-2007, 05:09 PM
 
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I've been thinking about this topic with respect to food a lot lately. Is it just me, or is there a tendency here (MDC) to think people are either feeding their kids Wonderbread, Lunchables, and McDonalds, or they're feeding them a 100% organic diet with everything made from scratch.

I honestly don't know anybody who does either. I know a few who are very close to the "Wonderbread and McDonalds" thing, and a few others who are almost 100% organic. But, I don't know anybody who is 100% on either end. It's as though the whole spectrum is totally invisible, except the really extreme ends.

Maybe it's just me. I have a lot of issues with food, so I might be hyper-sensitive on this topic.

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Old 02-19-2007, 05:27 PM
 
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Visualizing someone pushing a stroller around the house as they stack the dishwasher

~Nay
um after my c-section i could not sling my son and i did just that! my sister has terrible back problems and did this with her babies, too! it is really possible to push a stroller into each room you are in so you can set the baby down and have him able to see you and you see him while you wash a dish or make lunch.
that way you are within arms reach at all times, which, if you are an AP mom, ie someone who wants to respond to the babys cries in order to promote attachment, you can respond ASAP if they start to fuss, and they are near you instead of in the other room laying somewhere cuz you cant lift them for more than 5 minutes while standing.

again, its really hard to say these tools are bad. i am glad i had a stroller. my son did not live in it and spent much more time in my arms or in his dads arms, but when his dad was at work and i needed to get up and do a few things, i was glad i thought of keeping the stroller inside. we didnt own a crib or a playpen, nor did we want to, so this was really helpful for me and my infant.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:35 PM
 
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I honestly don't know anybody who does either. I know a few who are very close to the "Wonderbread and McDonalds" thing, and a few others who are almost 100% organic. But, I don't know anybody who is 100% on either end.
It's funny, I was laughing at my "tribal forum" the other day as almost everyone (active that is) was comparing their favorite fast food and chain restaurants. It just never seemed to dawn on anyone that spending money there on cr*ppy food seems at odds w/slings and bf.
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Old 02-19-2007, 05:59 PM
 
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Great thread.

Rivka, very interesting post.

All I have to add is that babywearing, cosleeping, and breastfeeding are AP tools. They are not AP. AP is an attitude towards parenting.

That being said - having found that the AP philosophy resonates with me, I am finding it easier to wade throuh the reams of information on parenting supplied by my doctor, the health region, my bookstore, my mommy friends, my mother, her book club, my in-laws, the internet, Dr. Phil, strangers in the checkout line, and the guy begging for bottles at the recycling bin. A little dogma every once in awhile just makes life easier.
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I've been thinking about this topic with respect to food a lot lately. Is it just me, or is there a tendency here (MDC) to think people are either feeding their kids Wonderbread, Lunchables, and McDonalds, or they're feeding them a 100% organic diet with everything made from scratch.

I honestly don't know anybody who does either. I know a few who are very close to the "Wonderbread and McDonalds" thing, and a few others who are almost 100% organic. But, I don't know anybody who is 100% on either end. It's as though the whole spectrum is totally invisible, except the really extreme ends.

Maybe it's just me. I have a lot of issues with food, so I might be hyper-sensitive on this topic.
No, it's not just you! I mean, we do our best. We don't eat much organic except a few key things that are known to be more contaminated; it's just too expensive for us. But we do eat mostly whole foods. Except when we don't! I mean, I would never, ever, ever spend money on those crappy lunchables. Except that I did when we were remodeling out kitchen. Like you said, I know a few people who are at either extreme, but most people are just like us -- pretty good habits most of the time, but not averse to the occasional fast food meal. I'm having surgery tomorrow, and you can bet that DH will be heating up some frozen pizzas and/or taking the kids to a burger joint for dinner! It's not the best, but in the big nutritional picture, I don't think it'll hurt any of us.

But I digress. Yes, I think there's that impression or feeling or whatever. That if you're not 100% organic vegan, then you're just shoving crap down your kids' throat day and night.

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Old 02-19-2007, 06:39 PM
 
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this thread is so interesting! I find in alot of circles your NFL or crunchiness is like a competition of sorts. :

also I think it's "trendy" latley to be NFL.

I also think there's a bit of insecurity about choices involved too. I see it alot on MDC too, I don't need to read your checklists or justify my own choices! we are all doing our best!

my kids do watch tv (dvd's) and we do eat junk on occasion (and sometimes more often) what business is it of anyone else though? don't pity me for my choices! (that's almost laughable!)

Blissful Mama to DD-(5), DS-(6) and someone new due in November!
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:23 PM
 
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But I digress. Yes, I think there's that impression or feeling or whatever. That if you're not 100% organic vegan, then you're just shoving crap down your kids' throat day and night.
Thanks. As I said, I know this is a topic that I'm sensitive about. But, sometimes, I come away from here feeling like I'm shoving crap down my kid's throats - then I say something about my feelings to dh, and he just laughs at me. He says I feed our family better than anyone else he knows. I guess I just focus too much on the fact that we only eat half whole wheat pasta (too expensive ) and we have white rice in the house because it's quick, and we eat non-organic veggies. I totally overlook that my kids are snacking on cheese, nuts and fruit and that we eat almost all whole grains and things like that. Maybe food is the area that I have the most trouble giving myself credit in...

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Old 02-19-2007, 10:59 PM
 
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Is it just me, or is there a tendency here (MDC) to think people are either feeding their kids Wonderbread, Lunchables, and McDonalds, or they're feeding them a 100% organic diet with everything made from scratch.
I find that with A LOT things, not just food. There seems to be two very different extremes in a lot of things. But as for food, I agree with you. We eat a lot of less then (MDC) perfect things for various reasons, but are by far the most conscientious people we know. When people come to our house to eat they are always taken aback by the fact that we eat from scratch. I made beef stew for dinner last night and my FIL's girlfriend stopped by after work and had a bowl, then proceeded to ask what brand of packaged stew mix I used! She was shocked that it was "home made" and tasted so good, AND was low sodium, and about 60% organic. So while everything may not be totally organic, I can at least take solice in the fact that we eat low sodium whole foods that are not chalked full of preservatives, fillers, and other junk.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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Old 02-20-2007, 02:05 AM
 
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We eat a lot of less then (MDC) perfect things for various reasons, but are by far the most conscientious people we know.
I hear you.

I realized the other day that my 3 year old is a more accomplished cook than one of my closest male friends.

Seriously, my 3 year old knows how to make banana smoothies, turkey sandwiches, and porridge (though he needs help with the stove). My friend J can boil hotdogs and make toast and that is about it - I swear, he also needs help with the stove and he is 37.

The baseline is pretty darn low, I am finding.

You know the attributes for a great adult? Initiative, creativity, intellectual curiosity? They make for a helluva kid...
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Old 02-20-2007, 08:39 AM
 
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It's like the bar is continually set higher and higher - first for what is considered ideal, and then for what is considered *minimally* acceptable.

For example:

Mothers should breastfeed for at least a year.
Mothers should breastfeed for at least a year, without EVER supplementing with formula.
Mothers should breastfeed for at least TWO years without supplementing.
Mothers should breastfeed for at least two years, AND breastmilk should be the primary source of calories until children are over two.
Mothers should breastfeed for MORE than two years.

Or, for GD:

Parents should not use physical punishment or humiliation.
Parents should not use time-out.
Parents should not use ANY form of punishment.
Parents should not criticize.
Parents should not use rewards.
Parents should not praise.
Parents should rescue their children from natural consequences.
Parents should not use distraction or playful techniques which are manipulative.
Parents should be careful not to indicate approval or disapproval of their children's behavior.

The "right way" keeps getting redefined to include fewer and fewer people. Delaying solids until 6 months is no longer enough - now people are being urged to start later and later, and then to only give "tastes" of solids until after the first year. Keeping your child rear-facing to the seat's weight limit is no longer enough - now people are being urged to buy new seats with higher rear-facing limits. And so on.
Rivka, you have forgotten the diaper part:
- Parents should change a wet/dirty diaper
- Parents should only use cloth
- Parents should only use EC: diapers are not GD

I enjoy this discussion. It shows that guilt is a very, very strong motivator for so many people, me included. A lot of posters post with guilt of not having performed to the highest ideal of GD or AP. Then, yes, as Yooper was saying a couple pages up on this thread they're really looking for someone to ease this guilt but noone can really do that...The very best advice I got from this community - and I got a lot - was when I asked for advice without feeling guilty over what I'd done wrong, just with a genuine wish to do better in the future. Our children will thrive even if we raised them less than ideal -- whatever our ideal was. They will thrive so long as they see their parents accepting of themselves, of their choices and showing the same acceptance for them as kids. What counts is just trying to do better than what we did yesterday --in the sense of having a more peaceful and harmonious relationship with those around us. Not that we will succeed every day...
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Old 02-20-2007, 07:12 PM
 
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For me we do nfl for health reasons and no other reason. I have an interest in health and nutrition and want to have my kids the healthiest they can be. I am not interested in the politcs that come along with being crunchy cause I dont ever want to be labelled or put in a box. Funny alot of people go crunchy to get out of a box and just end up back in one. I dont consider myself crunchy. I do everything that a "crunchy" person" might do but I tend to shy away from people liking me for what I do, rather than just being who I am. What I do could change tomorrow, but I hopefully will be the same person.
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Old 03-01-2007, 03:44 AM
 
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What I dont understand is this, if someone can clarify this for me that would be great! #not aloud to spank turns into not aloud to ground or give time ours turns into not aloud to give consequences unless"natural" turns into why the heck does anyone have parents anyways? DOnt understand why, but It doesnt seem right, Im all for balance, but it seems people have taken GD and crunchiness toooo far. Am I the only one who feels this way? And please explain to me why you parent that way? respectfully)
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:26 AM
 
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What I dont understand is this, if someone can clarify this for me that would be great! #not aloud to spank turns into not aloud to ground or give time ours turns into not aloud to give consequences unless"natural" turns into why the heck does anyone have parents anyways? DOnt understand why, but It doesnt seem right, Im all for balance, but it seems people have taken GD and crunchiness toooo far. Am I the only one who feels this way? And please explain to me why you parent that way? respectfully)
That is probably a question for the GD forum specifically But I would like to point out that just because a family does not use punishments does not mean there are not boundries or guidance for children. I parent in a way that I feel is most respectful to my kids and to the rest of our family and I assure you that is far cry from what you would expect to see of children with no parental figures at all :
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:13 AM
 
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I made beef stew for dinner last night and my FIL's girlfriend stopped by after work and had a bowl, then proceeded to ask what brand of packaged stew mix I used! She was shocked that it was "home made" and tasted so good, AND was low sodium, and about 60% organic. So while everything may not be totally organic, I can at least take solice in the fact that we eat low sodium whole foods that are not chalked full of preservatives, fillers, and other junk.
Sorry to go but North of 60, could you please PM me or post here the beef stew recipe? Would be much appreciated!

I WISH that I had some holier than though NFL/AP mommy friends. Pretty much all of my close mommy friends are very mainstream and when if our conversations happens to even touch upon things such as breastfeeding or organic food or discipline or giving birth, I pretty much have to keep my mouth shut because if I proffer an opinion, I will be perceived to be judgmental of their choices. So I stay quiet. (And I am not even that granola - only managed to breastfeed under a year, have never co-slept, used sposies...).

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Old 03-01-2007, 12:21 PM
 
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Loving this thread.

I am still new here and it was just recently that I noticed the "dark" side of MDC'ers (see now mod review thread "MIL pushy about CD") and how judgemental some mama's here are. But I think it's just that. Some mama's here. And that has nothing to do with NFL or AP, that is just people being critical and needing that acceptance from others. And that is anywhere you go. Seems like when people are secure with themselves and what they do, they are okay to let others figure things out alone, or offer a helping hand and not bash them all over the forum.

What's funny is, this all-or-nothing way of thinking that we're discussing reminds me of an expirement in which a group of children, maybe 10 years old, someone help me with the specifics, heard a story of a man who stole drugs from a pharmacy for his sick wife that he could not afford. When asked if this was right or wrong, the boys in the group almost unanimously felt that this was wrong because stealing is wrong. Very black and white, very immature thought pattern. The girls, OTOH, thought that the man should have talked with the pharmacist and explained his situation, found assistance somehow. Very grey, very willing to see his situation and cater specifically to it.

What has happened to us?!!

When I met my husband I was happy that he was so different from the norm, until I realized that he would never like some of my music, or even listen to it, share all of my views, etc. Then I realized that I had assumed that since he was different, he would be open minded. This was not necessarily true. Still love him, stubborness and all, but to make a point, I think this happens here, too.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:32 PM
 
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This is a great discussion! I haven’t read each and every response, but have looked at quite a few and I agree with so many things being said here.

I LOL’d when I saw the “crunchier than thou” phrase. My good friend lives in one a pretty competitive NFL communities, and she has mentioned this. Meanwhile, we live in an area that is definitely on the mainstream side, and we consider ourselves to be much more on the crunchy/granola side ourselves, and we do fall into the camp of doing “what feels right for our family.”

But I also have personally experienced a bit of negative judgment when I brought up in a post that we use disposables. It was a little frustrating b/c there are soooooo many things we do that fit in w/ the NFL lifestyle (no circ, BF, organics, gardening, delayed and selective vax, GD, holistic health, whole foods – mostly vegan, etc) but a few people really wanted to get mad at the *one* thing we don’t do. So, was this being “crunchier than thou”?? Maybe, or maybe it just hit a nerve.

Another example, is that my son has always LOVED his stroller. We did a lot of baby-wearing, but due to a pretty severe accident I was in a few years ago, it got harder for me as he grew bigger and heavier. So, I brought him out and about in his stroller, and he honestly loved it. It shouldn’t be a problem for anyone, yet, I have felt some judgment (not from MDC since this is the first time I’ve mentioned it, but from a NFL local group I’m involved in).

Funny thing is…I never would have guessed that strollers would be so controversial!!

I like this discussion b/c it helps remind me to chill out and not worry so much, and to also take a chill pill about judging what other parents do.
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:26 PM
 
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I think this is hilarious. I always find the necessity for "pedigrees" to be vastly amusing.

Thou are not Natural Enough! Gasp.

I go back and forth about being on this board. Some days I think I don't fit. Other days I think I fit BEST here compared to anywhere.

For example, I use disposables. I also do EC. Go ahead! Classify ME! I dare you.
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:53 PM
 
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What I dont understand is this, if someone can clarify this for me that would be great! #not aloud to spank turns into not aloud to ground or give time ours turns into not aloud to give consequences unless"natural" turns into why the heck does anyone have parents anyways? DOnt understand why, but It doesnt seem right, Im all for balance, but it seems people have taken GD and crunchiness toooo far. Am I the only one who feels this way? And please explain to me why you parent that way? respectfully)
No, you're definitely not the only one who feels this way. I never visit the GD board, because I absolutely don't fit there. GD for me means that I don't spank or hit, and I don't use discipline methods that I feel are demeaning; i.e., name-calling, shaming, etc. I do, however, give consequences that aren't necessarily "natural" (time-outs, loss of privileges, early bedtimes, etc.).

So, anyway, the hard-leaning GDers (it's called consensual living; it's worth reading about, even if you're not interested in implementing all the ideas) have something great going in their households, but it's definitely not true that 100% of us lean the same!

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Old 03-01-2007, 07:37 PM
 
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What I dont understand is this, if someone can clarify this for me that would be great! #not aloud to spank turns into not aloud to ground or give time ours turns into not aloud to give consequences unless"natural" turns into why the heck does anyone have parents anyways? DOnt understand why, but It doesnt seem right, Im all for balance, but it seems people have taken GD and crunchiness toooo far. Am I the only one who feels this way? And please explain to me why you parent that way? respectfully)
Amen. I am right there with you.
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:48 PM
 
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What I dont understand is this, if someone can clarify this for me that would be great! #not aloud to spank turns into not aloud to ground or give time ours turns into not aloud to give consequences unless"natural" turns into why the heck does anyone have parents anyways? DOnt understand why, but It doesnt seem right, Im all for balance, but it seems people have taken GD and crunchiness toooo far. Am I the only one who feels this way? And please explain to me why you parent that way? respectfully)
Because for me, the more I learned about GD, GD became less about "not spanking" and more about "respectful parenting". I'm not all the way to consensual living, but I'm working on it, and it's something I wouldn't know anything about if it weren't for the EXTREME mamas here on MDC

In fact, I don't think MDC would have anything of value for me if not for the EXTREME mamas. I wouldn't have learned a darned thing from this site if all the information were middle-of-the-road :yawning:
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:52 PM
 
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In fact, I don't think MDC would have anything of value for me if not for the EXTREME mamas. I wouldn't have learned a darned thing from this site if all the information were middle-of-the-road :yawning:
Brilliant
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:56 PM
 
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Why? Because I could feel the invisible eyes of the GD Righteous glaring down on me.
...
It didn't matter that my personal philosophy is that it IS okay to draw a line and say after appropriate preparation, we're going NOW, I'm sorry if you don't like it but we have an appointment we cannot miss.
...
It took me several hours to talk myself down from the fact that I was applying a standard that was unattainable to my parenting.
...
It's enough to make me reconsider all the research and time I put into parenting by reading these boards. Because they just make me feel inferior sometimes.
Bolding mine . . . this is really unfair to people who genuinely are able to come up with a non-child-grabbing solution. Fwiw, I would likely have done the same thing. Then, if I was feeling badly about the way it went, I would have realized, as you said, that I was the one setting the ideal - NOT other people.

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Suppose you had posted that on the GD forum. Those posts are always there. The "this happened and I did not like how it went, what could I do differently?" threads. I tend to not reply to those. It is almost always going to be a trainwreck because the OP is usually not actually looking for suggestions. They want everyone to say "you are right, there is absolutely no alternatives to that situation except exactly what you did". When someone posts asking for suggestions, by mind starts brainstorming and I might pass along ideas or my own experiences. Or at least I did, until I discovered that indeed, they are looking for validation rather than suggestions. I think it is perfectly fine to ask for validation. But to ask for "suggestions" and then start calling posters "holier than thou" for making suggestions that unbeknownst to them are unacceptable to the OP is not really productive for anyone.
That's a real shame. Although I pretty much never get around to posting on the GD board, I try to evaluate what I've done with my dd's and often almost post a "this is what I did, what could I have done" thread (I'm just usually too exhausted and then I forget until next time I run into the same situation). If I ever post a question like this, respond, okay? It'll be genuine.
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Old 03-01-2007, 08:27 PM
 
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The problem I see is that an unreachable standard is being set here....


Mamas worry that if their baby cries for three minutes, EVER, that the child will suffer horrible psychological damage. They ask pleadingly if it's "okay" that their kid accidentally saw half an episode of Mr. Rogers once, or if the baby sits in a bouncy seat while the mom takes a five minute shower. They write of the angst they suffer for leaving their child in the care of their husbands for an hour, for the first time, when the child is over three years old.

Again and again I see mamas posting with guilt -- crushing guilt -- about not meeting some sort of AP super standard at ALL TIMES. And attempting to meet most of these standards entails this huge, astonishing self-sacrifice on the mother's part. ...


Instead of helping women be the best mamas they can be, I sometimes feel like the AP movement can be a way to make women even more tortured about their choices -- because, sometimes, you really just can't be good enough.


OMG OMG OMG!!!!
It's like the words were copied right out of my brain!!!
I feel like this a lot lateley....
Sadly it's the reason why I don't come to MDC much anymore.
At one point in my life shortly after my second DD was born I was so obsessed with doing everything AP/NFL/ yada yada yada, that I had totally alienated myself from all of my friends because I felt like "nobody understood" and that they were "lame" for not making the same sacrafices I was, for their children. I became very judgmental. Of almost everyone and everything. I became like the OP mentioned.
I hated myself. I hated that my life had become so difficult. I felt like I was going crazy.

I had bad BF problems with #2 and put so much pressure on myself to keep up with it despite it being nearly impossible. I remember one day in particular when it was beautiful outside and all of the neighborhood was outside enjoying the day, but me. I watched from a rocking chair. A rocking chair I had been sitting in for pretty much the whole day, trying to nurse and get dd to sleep. I refused my husbands offer to give her a bottle and me a break because I literally felt like formula was evil (even though looking back she really needed supplementing then)l. I didn't dare put her down or give her to my husband because she would cry, and I wouldn't allow it. She needed me and only me. I felt like an insane person.

I had a mini nervous break down that evening and just cried that I was so tired of no sleep, sleeping with a baby attached to my breast all night, and just spending my days with her up in that rocking chair trying to get her to nurse and nap.
Every time I came on MDC for support all I got was "keep it up" and "you're doing what's best for your baby" when I really needed to hear " youv'e been doing the best you can, but it's OK to give yourself a break."

I remember one time ( a humiliating experience) of trying to nurse in public. I really felt like I wanted to cover up but after posting about purchasing a nursing cover up I was bullied into feeling like I shouldn't have to cover up, so again I set that standard fro myself. Instead of listening to my own gut, I was trying to keep up with the "AP Jonses", and it just wasn't working for me any longer. I felt like I couldn't breath.

Thankfully I have rebounded and landed somewhere in the middle of Crunchy and mainstream. I still try to do everything as AP and natural as possible, but I won't beat myself up about it if it dosen't work out.

I still very much value MDC and the women here that teach their knowledge and offer support.
Thanks for listening, I've wanted to get that off of my chest for a while now.
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:34 PM
 
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What I dont understand is this, if someone can clarify this for me that would be great! #not aloud to spank turns into not aloud to ground or give time ours turns into not aloud to give consequences unless"natural" turns into why the heck does anyone have parents anyways? DOnt understand why, but It doesnt seem right, Im all for balance, but it seems people have taken GD and crunchiness toooo far. Am I the only one who feels this way? And please explain to me why you parent that way? respectfully)
For me, it comes down to the fact that my parents didn't spank (mom's actually EXTREMELY against spanking), but still used punishments such as time outs, etc, and I remember what that felt like . . . I remember very distinctly what it was like to be a kid, why I "misbehaved" and what I didn't learn with regards to how to express myself in a socially acceptable way - I refer to it as "fair weather parenting" . . . yk, "You must be alone when you're not pleasant to be around" - consequently when I did become self-destructive and suicidal with no real "reason", and was unable to be completely eloquent about it, I figured my mom would just be mad at me for being "overemotional" and didn't bother to talk to her. Because I didn't trust that she was there for me.
I wasn't punished a lot as a child. By the time I actually remember, it was very rare, I was a pretty good kid. I knew darn well my parents loved me. I didn't feel that they tried to understand me though. They just assumed I was being overdramatic and manipulative. When I was punished, I calmed down - by thinking about how much I hated my parents and how much I couldn't wait to get away from them. I got really good at not getting caught. I still don't feel I can really be myself around my parents.

I do believe natural consequences are a good thing - even logical consequences. I'm not perfect at all, I yell at my daughter and I really wish I wouldn't. I even resorted to time out once because I couldn't think. We use "time in" a lot to help dd1 cool down. And "be windy" (she has to inhale deeply in order to be the wind). I don't believe I should shield my children from consequences because I think it causes them to believe they can't handle life.

Anyway, those are my philosophical objections and reasons. I'll admit, I'm not doing well with it lately. I think punishing would be far easier - I just want to raise emotionally healthy adults.
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Old 03-01-2007, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Mamas worry that if their baby cries for three minutes, EVER, that the child will suffer horrible psychological damage. They ask pleadingly if it's "okay" that their kid accidentally saw half an episode of Mr. Rogers once, or if the baby sits in a bouncy seat while the mom takes a five minute shower. They write of the angst they suffer for leaving their child in the care of their husbands for an hour, for the first time, when the child is over three years old. "

I hear you so much about that! When I got in that zone, what I found really helpful was looking at all the people around me who are happy, healthy, wonderful people and didn't have that kind of upbringing.

My dad was extremely ill for the first nine months of his life. He had to be in a hospital several hours away from my grandparents' farm, and they could not afford to pay for my grandma to stay in town with him. In fact, she had to be on the farm to work as they let go of two hired men to pay for the hospital bills. I'd be surprised if he saw his parents for more than a couple hours once a week. Despite coming from a non-ideal situation after birth, he's a loving, responsible, stable and all around great person.
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Old 03-02-2007, 01:02 AM
 
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As time goes on I am less hard on myself about being the perfect natural parent. It seems like every other time I read another post or article I have just unknowingly bought something toxic, did something emotionally/physiclaly damaging to my child or the Earth and so on.

You can only research and try and do the perfect thing so much. I like AP/NFL concepts and they made my family's life better, but I now know that I can't do everything perfect without sacrificing somewhere else (mentally, my marriage, finances, energy). So I just "eat the fruit, and spit out the pits" and do what is reasonable for us.

I don't know who the AP/NFL police are but most of them are probably in my imagination or just online. It is easy to think people are living a certain way when you don't see them in everyday real life. I also wanted to add that we all have our "specialties". Some moms have tons of anti vax info, others on GD, others on homebirth. So it can seem overwhelming like everyone has all the ansers while everyone has some piece of the answer instead.

Jen

homebirth.jpg<>< Mama to DS, DD, and a new baby girl 4/1! homeschool.gifmdcblog5.gif

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Old 03-02-2007, 09:33 AM
 
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Because for me, the more I learned about GD, GD became less about "not spanking" and more about "respectful parenting". <snip>
In fact, I don't think MDC would have anything of value for me if not for the EXTREME mamas. I wouldn't have learned a darned thing from this site if all the information were middle-of-the-road :yawning:
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I refer to it as "fair weather parenting" . . . yk, "You must be alone when you're not pleasant to be around" - consequently when I did become self-destructive and suicidal with no real "reason", and was unable to be completely eloquent about it, I figured my mom would just be mad at me for being "overemotional" and didn't bother to talk to her. Because I didn't trust that she was there for me.
I wasn't punished a lot as a child. By the time I actually remember, it was very rare, I was a pretty good kid. I knew darn well my parents loved me. I didn't feel that they tried to understand me though. They just assumed I was being overdramatic and manipulative. When I was punished, I calmed down - by thinking about how much I hated my parents and how much I couldn't wait to get away from them. I got really good at not getting caught. I still don't feel I can really be myself around my parents.

I do believe natural consequences are a good thing - even logical consequences. I'm not perfect at all, I yell at my daughter and I really wish I wouldn't. I even resorted to time out once because I couldn't think. We use "time in" a lot to help dd1 cool down. And "be windy" (she has to inhale deeply in order to be the wind). I don't believe I should shield my children from consequences because I think it causes them to believe they can't handle life.

Anyway, those are my philosophical objections and reasons. I'll admit, I'm not doing well with it lately. I think punishing would be far easier - I just want to raise emotionally healthy adults.
: to all of the above. While I am not extreme, being able to read 'extreme' viewpoints on this board have helped me not only learn new things to incorporate into my own family, but also to flesh out the things I *don't* agree with and become more confident in myself

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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Old 03-02-2007, 01:04 PM
 
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They didn't do GD, though I think they thought themselves very enlightened for only humiliating us and not beating us down physically.
I hope it's not cruel of me to find humor in this. I don't know why it touched my funny bone... maybe because I know people like this. Anyway, I'm just making my way through this thread and I had to tell you Belgian, that I love your posts.

You,too, chinakat. Loved the clockwork orange reference.

OK, back to reading.
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Old 03-02-2007, 01:36 PM
 
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There's a recognized social psychology phenomenon in which, as groups of liked-minded people discuss their positions, they gradually become more extreme over time.
I think this is intriguing. It would explain so much... outside of message boards, even. How do rational folks that start out with certain ideals become maniacal fanatics?

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Really, something to take into an account is that I think there is always an "arc" of development among our beliefs and who we are.
This is another great point. I'm reading a book right now about the ego and the effects of it on your life. What I take from it is that, at times, a person tends to try to condemn or convert others to feel better about their own choices. Once one is truly confortable, they no longer feel the need to make others see things their way. If we could stop seeing our Selves in our choices we wouldn't be so touchy/defensive about them. We identify with the roles, labels, and icons because it is easier than understanding what our true identity is... which is what is left when all that "stuff" is stripped away.
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Old 03-02-2007, 01:46 PM
 
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So, what's the deal here? Those of us that actually do hold some extreme views in our heart of hearts must put a disclaimer on everything that we write 'i believe' on that also states 'I understand that other people do not come from the same place and see the world through different filters and I'm okay with that'? Honestly, if a person were to think so little of me that they wouldn't think I know that, I have to say I really don't give a rat's arse if they judge me judgmental.

A big long-winded example: no, I don't believe you should go to your crying baby if you're going to throw her out the window. Yes, I do believe the reason you feel that way is largely because you're either depleted in key nutrients or your body is unable to properly process what you take in. Does that mean I believe you're a bad person if you continue to eat MacDonald's twice a week? Uh, no, that's what happens when you don't have the energy to cook for yourself. So if I say *insert nutrients here* might help, or that studies show being low in *somesuch* can be caused by intake of *something else* or whatever. I'm not saying "you're bad if you don't do it or if you turn to meds", because I understand it's not that simple. But do I really need to water down the message and come across sounding like all sides are equal, you'll still be mentally ok if you persist in doing what you're doing (assuming a tendency toward depression or whatever). It's like doctors who say formula is just as good as breastmilk because they're afraid of making women feel guilty.

Guilt is what you feel when your actions conflict with your ideals. Not someone else's.

Most of my views are extreme. I have a vision for my descendents that I am trying to live towards.That doesn't make me a bad person. I'm certainly not "following the crowd", I've never had any use for people who do things based solely on someone else's actions. I don't meet my own ideals all the time, and I'm actually okay with that. I'm human.
I have realized that my "causes" are all selfish - I'm concerned about my great great great grandchildren (even just about my own DNA), so environmental concerns are big with me. So I get frustrated sometimes when others do things that slap Mother Earth in the face. Even being anti-spanking is selfish - it's about the assault on my own fragile psyche when I have to see/hear/think about it.
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