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The Granola Extreme

21K views 326 replies 96 participants last post by  lolalola 
#1 ·
An interesting discussion was started elsewhere about AP/Natural family living and its compatability/incompatability with feminism. I thought it would be good to have a place to continue the discussion.

Some people may remember an extremely mediocre miniseries on TV a while back called "The Sixties." It did have one moment that rang true to me: the daughter runs away from her traditional, cookie-baking SAHM family. She ends up at a commune, where her first job is to bake muffins (without refined sugar, of course). She discovers her scope at the commune is just as restricted as it was at home.

Sometimes AP/NFL does, to me, reek of: difficulty for the difficulty's sake, self-sacrifice by moms (regardless of the relative value of the sacrifice to the gain) = nobility, the more obscure, the more "cool", the more challenging, the more "cool". I have seen it drive my DH's ex literally to her wits' end. With her next pregnancy I expect to run across her lying under some bushes in the park, in midwinter, holding a stick between her teeth and giving birth alone. Because a homebirth isn't enough, an unattended birth isn't enough, it's gotta be something even *more* natural. Rather than keeping up with the Jones, she's keeping up with the Raynbow Arwen Starrs.
 
#152 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
So, what's the deal here? Those of us that actually do hold some extreme views in our heart of hearts must put a disclaimer on everything that we write 'i believe' on that also states 'I understand that other people do not come from the same place and see the world through different filters and I'm okay with that'? Honestly, if a person were to think so little of me that they wouldn't think I know that, I have to say I really don't give a rat's arse if they judge me judgmental.

A big long-winded example: no, I don't believe you should go to your crying baby if you're going to throw her out the window. Yes, I do believe the reason you feel that way is largely because you're either depleted in key nutrients or your body is unable to properly process what you take in. Does that mean I believe you're a bad person if you continue to eat MacDonald's twice a week? Uh, no, that's what happens when you don't have the energy to cook for yourself. So if I say *insert nutrients here* might help, or that studies show being low in *somesuch* can be caused by intake of *something else* or whatever. I'm not saying "you're bad if you don't do it or if you turn to meds", because I understand it's not that simple. But do I really need to water down the message and come across sounding like all sides are equal, you'll still be mentally ok if you persist in doing what you're doing (assuming a tendency toward depression or whatever). It's like doctors who say formula is just as good as breastmilk because they're afraid of making women feel guilty.

Guilt is what you feel when your actions conflict with your ideals. Not someone else's.

Most of my views are extreme. I have a vision for my descendents that I am trying to live towards.That doesn't make me a bad person. I'm certainly not "following the crowd", I've never had any use for people who do things based solely on someone else's actions. I don't meet my own ideals all the time, and I'm actually okay with that. I'm human.
I have realized that my "causes" are all selfish - I'm concerned about my great great great grandchildren (even just about my own DNA), so environmental concerns are big with me. So I get frustrated sometimes when others do things that slap Mother Earth in the face. Even being anti-spanking is selfish - it's about the assault on my own fragile psyche when I have to see/hear/think about it.
Yep.

I asked this question a while back. What should MDC be then? Can only people within certain boundaries post? I am probably extreme on some issues in some people's minds and mainstream in other areas. I never feel judged or like I am not good enough in those mainstream areas. They are choices I have made for a reason and I am happy with them. There are other areas I am trying to improve upon. I appreciate learning from the people that are where I want to be. Or even past where I want to be.

I guess I see no point in the exaggerated whining. Why do you care if I chose not to use "logical consequences"? I do not post that people who do are bad bad bad. I post my reasons, when asked. I post suugestions, when asked. I never crash onto a thread and start stomping that anyone who is different than me is wrong. And I very rarely see that from anyone else. Of course, on a message board this big, you are going to run into confrontational people on BOTH sides, but I think the vast majority of people here are respectful. And one could view this very thread in the same light. I will not say I am "offended" because I am not. But I do feel like it is purposely belittling to highlight certain subjects and that calling people that hold those views fanatical. How is that any better? So ignore the stuff you do not want to read about and move on.
 
#154 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
So, what's the deal here? Those of us that actually do hold some extreme views in our heart of hearts must put a disclaimer on everything that we write 'i believe' on that also states '
Honestly, I don't profess to have all the answers on what is the "right" way for people to behave on message boards. I understand that some people are just naturally more abrasive than others. I also think it is easier, at times, to treat people a certain way on here because they are strangers whom we'll never meet.

I am a definite newbie on these boards and don't know all the ins and outs. I know tolerance works both ways and that people with strong opinions should be respected as much as those that try to temper their responses so as not to offend. However, I also know what the effects of feeling overly judged are. When I found out my soon-to-be firstborn was a boy (by the evils of ultrasound
: ), I started wondering about circumcision. I come from a rather mainstream family and community, so my initial thoughts were "of course I'm going to circ", but something kept nagging at me about it. I started looking into it many places, here included. But I never felt comfortable posting my questions here because of the tone of the posts I read. At times, I felt I could sense the rabid foam coming from barking mouths of certain posters. People posted that they would disown family members for choosing to circumcise and that stunned me. It made me feel that even the fact I was waffling about the decision meant I was a terrible person in their eyes. How dare I even be concerned about "locker room trauma"? Why should I let DH have a say? That sort of thing. It wasn't until I met with other people IRL and in other forums that had admitted to struggling with the decision that I could finally feel okay with my concerns enough to squelch them. (I don't know if that makes sense, but it's how it happened.) In the end, I'm so happy that I've decided not to circ. I feel wonderful about it. But I also think it's important to remember that if you practice a little acceptance and open-mindedness, people might feel comfortable enough to discuss their concerns and have them answered. I just think that sounding militant can be very alienating, and if the point of an intactivist is to save as many foreskins as possible, they might want to consider their approach.
 
#155 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by RumiWithAView View Post
But I also think it's important to remember that if you practice a little acceptance and open-mindedness, people might feel comfortable enough to discuss their concerns and have them answered. I just think that sounding militant can be very alienating, and if the point of an intactivist is to save as many foreskins as possible, they might want to consider their approach.
I know what you're saying here - IMO, a lot of it is that a lot of those (angry!) people are speaking out of self-defense. It's like a psychic assault on them and causes a reactionary response. I was guilty of it myself recently in a spanking debate on another board - I managed to completely muddle the point because of my anger. I experienced it here when I first posted on the vax board as well, so I do know what you're talking about. I just ignored the tone and looked through it to the actual message (although I know that I was fortunate to be in a state of mind that I could do that).
At the same time, when someone is feeling vulnerable, they also have a tendency to perceive malice where there is none. That's what I find frustrating. Noone can talk about the risks of choosing a c-section (choosing without medical reason), and how crazy they think that decision is if it's just for convenience sake, etc, without someone chiming in to say their c/s saved their lives or they feel judged or whatever. Or talking about problems with formula and someone chimes in to say "you're calling me stupid because I was formula fed".
Both of these things are problems.
Maybe MDC should have a subforum on effective communication in activism or something.
 
#156 ·
Rude, nasty, "yelling", name-calling, etc.... is against the user agreement. It is pretty easy to report anything like that. What I see in this thread is that people want posters that happen to be at the "extreme" end of any topic and have the "audacity" to post about it should be quiet and go away. So you get rid of those people and start chipping away at the next layer. Soon you are on babycenter. While I do not think it is ever OK to come onto a thread and purposely make people feel bad, I do think that people who post on a NFL board should be aware that NFL topics will be discussed and that anyone coming on here stating that they do things that are not NFL/AP should expect to have that challenged. Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason to. It is not NFL. So you like disposables/circ/CIO/Walmart......? Great. This is not the place to declare your love for that and expect pats on the back.

I personally come on here to learn, to grow, to see new perspcetives that are in line with NFL/AP. Are other people here for different reasons? Am I missing the boat?
 
#157 ·
Yooper [I said:
Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason[/I] to.
QUOTE]

AHA, Your secret's out now!!!
LOL. I think many of us have something we do that is not 100% nfl/ap. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

Oh. And like you, I enjoy learning so many new things and different perspectives from the board!!
 
#158 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason to.


AHA, Your secret's out now!!! LOL. I think many of us have something we do that is not 100% nfl/ap. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

Oh. And like you, I enjoy learning so many new things and different perspectives from the board!!
 
#159 ·
Quote:
While I do not think it is ever OK to come onto a thread and purposely make people feel bad, I do think that people who post on a NFL board should be aware that NFL topics will be discussed and that anyone coming on here stating that they do things that are not NFL/AP should expect to have that challenged. Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason to. It is not NFL. So you like disposables/circ/CIO/Walmart......? Great. This is not the place to declare your love for that and expect pats on the back.


I think I have said that same thing on a past thread that was similar to this LOL. Tho I think I said I loved McDonalds
It isn't about who is or isnt 100% perfect in the NFL/AP way... no one is! It IS about respecting what this board is about and what the purpose is and realizing that some subjects are going to be challenged here and that it is not a personal attack on the poster, but a respectful discussion. Discussion is always useful, we learn and grow through it. If there were not people here 4 years ago promoting what I at the time thought was "extreme" I wouldn't be the parent or person I am today.

Obviously if someone is violating the UA and attacking a person personally or name calling it should be reported tho... but if a discussion is respectful then no personal offense should be taken. People are talking about actions and choices, not who you are as a person.
 
#160 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by caligirl View Post
Instead of listening to my own gut, I was trying to keep up with the "AP Jonses", and it just wasn't working for me any longer. I felt like I couldn't breath.
This phrase sums it all up for me. You will NEVER feel good about what you are doing if you are always trying to "keep up", because you are not being true to yourself while doing it. You are trying to be true to someone else's guidlines for living....how unfair to cheat yourself like that. It is so unfortunate that our society has taken away the right to just go with our gut insinct (thanks to the kajillion parenting/discipline,etc. books out there). Whatever happened to "just being?" Just "BE" ladies! No need to list all of your AP accomplishments, just live them.

I find so many times that these things (AP/NFL/EC/BF/blah, blah, blah) become a competition to so many. Heck, there are people on here who are competing with the amount of posts that they have. Are they just posting for posting sake? Are you APing for APing's sake or do you believe in it?

I think it is incredibly unhealthy to consider yourself anything other than just a human being, because that is really all that we are and nothing else. Stop with the labels and pour that energy into taking care of yourself and your family instinctually. If we truly love isn't that enough?
 
#161 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
Maybe MDC should have a subforum on effective communication in activism or something.
Totally OT, but this is a great idea!

I am the administrator of Norways first AP-messageboard. And we actually have a subforum where we can discuss, learn and talk about how to communicate Non Violent. As in, NVC NonViolentCommunication written by Marshall Rosenberg.


Maybe that would be possible here at MDC, too?

Ooh, and I totally agreee with your posts in this thread, by the way.
 
#162 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Greensleeves View Post
I have a question, though. Does it matter what a person's motivation is for doing all the AP/NFL stuff, or is it enough that they're even doing it?

I guess for some people, a huge part of the appeal of AP/NFL is that it's kind of 'edgy'. If it became mainstream, would it still appeal to them as much?

It seems like in many movements, there is a pride of ownership in those who were there 'first'. And they feel like everyone who comes after them is somehow not as authentic. KWIM?

Arrgh, I will try to come back tomorrow to form more coherent sentences after some sleep.

I actually think it's ALL about the motivation. AP is about being *attached* to your kids. If creating that bond and maintaining a connection throughout your child's life is the basic focus of your parenting, then you're AP, IMO.
*HOW* you maintain that bond will vary from child to child and from year to year. What works for DC1 may not work for DC2, what works at 1 year probably will not work at 13 or 25 or 40.

It's all about being motivated to maintain that connection and bond.

I think it gets tricky when you start mixing NFL & AP. Cloth diapering is not AP, organic lentils and soy milk are not AP, being "crunchy" does not equal being "attached". I come here mainly for the AP side of things. I'm comfortable with my semi-crunchy status and I'm not ashamed to say I occationally eat fast food & have no good veggie chili recipes & have used mainly sposies for the last 6 months. I'm not offended by the "Crunchier than thou" statements. Being more "crunchy" will not make me a better mom and "going through the AP motions" will not make me more attached.
 
#165 ·
"What I see in this thread is that people want posters that happen to be at the "extreme" end of any topic and have the "audacity" to post about it should be quiet and go away. So you get rid of those people and start chipping away at the next layer. Soon you are on babycenter. While I do not think it is ever OK to come onto a thread and purposely make people feel bad, I do think that people who post on a NFL board should be aware that NFL topics will be discussed and that anyone coming on here stating that they do things that are not NFL/AP should expect to have that challenged. Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason to. It is not NFL."

See -- I disagree with this. I see alot of people on these boards doing "reality checks" -- looking at how other mothers manage their lives. If we don't share our "taco bell meals", it provides a distorted picture of ourselves and increases the heat on mothers who may be struggling in certain areas.
 
#166 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by bczmama View Post
See -- I disagree with this. I see alot of people on these boards doing "reality checks" -- looking at how other mothers manage their lives. If we don't share our "taco bell meals", it provides a distorted picture of ourselves and increases the heat on mothers who may be struggling in certain areas.

I agree. Frankly, I like to hear about people who occationally eat fast food or love their baby swing or (gasp) question aspects of AP-a-la-Sears. I'm not at one extreme or the other. My life functions better with a balance of "super NFL" and "mainstream". It's actually good to hear that there are others who have found ways to pick and choose, too.
 
#167 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by jamsmama View Post
I think it is incredibly unhealthy to consider yourself anything other than just a human being, because that is really all that we are and nothing else. Stop with the labels and pour that energy into taking care of yourself and your family instinctually. If we truly love isn't that enough?
Amen, sister.
 
#168 ·
Well labels are useful. I don't walk around calling my family an "AP family" but I did seek out a forum to express myself amongst like minded parents and, more importantly, learn from those people. That forum happens to have a NFL/AP label


The label doesn't define me but labels are useful tools on the internet. I understand the sentiment that getting caught up in labels without understanding what they are about or trying define yourself or others within one's narrow concept of what that label means but to declare that labels need to be thrown out isn't realistic or useful.

I am not interested in reading posts about babies being spanked and left to cry so I do look for the AP "label" on a site. Unfortunately, labels aren't doing much here at MDC anyway. Still have to read pro spanking/CIO posts
:
 
#169 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzharmony View Post
Unfortunately, labels aren't doing much here at MDC anyway. Still have to read pro spanking/CIO posts
:
Well, if it makes you feel any better you do get the pleasure of seeing anybody who posts that way get an immediate slap upside the head, internet style.

Seriously, if pro-spanking/cio posts are your worst criticism of MDC you might want to try not being so critical about stuff. Because those two points of view are really not tolerated here.
 
#170 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
Well, if it makes you feel any better you do get the pleasure of seeing anybody who posts that way get an immediate slap upside the head, internet style.

Seriously, if pro-spanking/cio posts are your worst criticism of MDC you might want to try not being so critical about stuff. Because those two points of view are really not tolerated here.
I have seen a whole bunch of crap tolerated here in the name of being "non-judgmental" that never would have flown when I first joined 4yrs ago.
 
#171 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
What I see in this thread is that people want posters that happen to be at the "extreme" end of any topic and have the "audacity" to post about it should be quiet and go away. So you get rid of those people and start chipping away at the next layer. Soon you are on babycenter. While I do not think it is ever OK to come onto a thread and purposely make people feel bad, I do think that people who post on a NFL board should be aware that NFL topics will be discussed and that anyone coming on here stating that they do things that are not NFL/AP should expect to have that challenged. Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason to. It is not NFL. So you like disposables/circ/CIO/Walmart......? Great. This is not the place to declare your love for that and expect pats on the back.
I think there are two issues here. First is the issue of "catching more flies with honey", and second is the issue of people respecting this community for what it is - AP/NFL.

On the first issue, I think people can be extreme in their views without being rude. Being belligerent and militant is not synonymous with being extreme, passionate, or fanatic. It's just plain rude. Period.

For example, I am VERY extreme about formula feeding and breastfeeding. I am low supply mom and worked my heiny off to be able to exclusively breastfeed my daughter. I pumped so much that at one point my hands cracked from washing pumps parts 10-12 times a day. So when someone gets on here and says they're working hard to pump and then I find out it's only 3 or 4 times a day, oh boy, I get steamed. HOWEVER, that does not give me permission to be rude, because I will not get my point across by making myself sound more committed to breastfeeding then the person who only wants to pump 4 times, not 12.

And on the second issue, I think there is a fine line in preserving this AP/NFL community and alienating people who are still walking the fence. While I whole heartedly agree that people should read the MDC mission statement before posting, I also think it is in extremely bad taste to lambaste someone for coming here to research about CIO, circ, cloth diapers, or vaccinating. You catch more flies with honey...

Having said that, it is REALLY frustrating when some people tend to perpetuate a non AP/NFL sentiment in a place that should uphold AP/NFL. At a certain point one must put their foot down and point up the NATURAL FAMILY LIVING banner to remind people why they are here.

I DO think there is a difference in finding your way, and simply flaunting what is not AP/NFL on an AP/NFL forum. To use the Taco Bell analogy, it would be the equivalent of someone coming here to genuinely inquire about how bad Taco Bell is, and someone else continually suggesting that others eat it because they do and they haven't keeled over yet.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think rudeness, belligerence, and snarkiness can or should be tolerated under the guise of being extreme or passionate.
 
#173 ·
I admit, I have read only the last few posts here, so I hope I am getting the jist of things...

Something used to occasionally happen in my women's studies classes long ago. In the interest of being nonhierarchical and accepting, anyone could put forth an idea about one of our readings and it would be accepted. The amount of actual debate or constructive criticism would be approximately zero--unless someone unthinkingly put forth an idea that could be found sexist, or else an idea that was not politically correct. Then they'd get yelled at.

The problem here was not the PC thing, though that has its issues. What I really hated was the fact that you could say the dumbest, least-analyzed idea possible and nobody would really question you--because doing so was somehow oppressive. But this just meant that the level of discussion was incredibly bland and predictable. When you start accepting all points of view, simply out of some vague ideal usually expressed as "everyone has their opinion," then you just end up with something dull and flat and mediocre. MDC is mostly women, and women are famous for not actually arguing their points too much and, if they do, shutting down the minute someone disagrees. But I don't think this serves us very well.

I am actually all for MDC being fairly 'extreme' in its granola point of view. I really like that I find people here who are even more granola than I am--I learn new stuff all the time. I do not like the idea that we should become an all-inclusive place and water the whole thing down. MDC *IS* a granola extreme--and that's the way I like it. If you use 100% disposable diapers or eat at Taco Bell, that's fine, it's your life--but I don't think you should expect that people here are going to think that's normal or desirable. (I suppose you could get a charge out of being 'rebellious', though
...)

I think that if we let MDC become watered down, the super-granola people will leave and the site will become fairly mainstream. It will become mostly Whole Foods shoppers who are uncomfortable spanking, instead of the homesteaders with the acre-sized garden and the milk goats who do 'elimination communication' and are practicing Buddhists or geez, even polyamorous pagans. The site does serve a purpose in 'educating' those WF shoppers to a lifestyle even more extreme than the one they imagined they were living...but. There's a reason many hardcore granola types sort of drop out of society...and it's often because they are tired of 'educating' and want to just live.

Well. No one can accuse me of not being ready to make a speech about a thread I haven't even read!
 
#174 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by fuller2 View Post
I am actually all for MDC being fairly 'extreme' in its granola point of view. I really like that I find people here who are even more granola than I am--I learn new stuff all the time. I do not like the idea that we should become an all-inclusive place and water the whole thing down. MDC *IS* a granola extreme--and that's the way I like it. If you use 100% disposable diapers or eat at Taco Bell, that's fine, it's your life--but I don't think you should expect that people here are going to think that's normal or desirable. (I suppose you could get a charge out of being 'rebellious', though
...)

I think that if we let MDC become watered down, the super-granola people will leave and the site will become fairly mainstream. It will become mostly Whole Foods shoppers who are uncomfortable spanking, instead of the homesteaders with the acre-sized garden and the milk goats who do 'elimination communication' and are practicing Buddhists or geez, even polyamorous pagans. The site does serve a purpose in 'educating' those WF shoppers to a lifestyle even more extreme than the one they imagined they were living...but. There's a reason many hardcore granola types sort of drop out of society...and it's often because they are tired of 'educating' and want to just live.
Interesting. The only problem with your logic is that in real life, the drop-out extremists are more likely to have consumed Taco Bell in the past week, year, or ten years than the less-extreme GD Whole Foodies. Because they have less money, and fewer pretensions. I have spent far more time living without electricity than most MDCers - and I also have eaten far more Taco Bell.

And drop-out extremists are least likely of all to do a checklist. What comes up again and again and again is the reality that doing a full checklist is a luxury. A few months ago there was a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG thread over whether it was rude to refuse a piece of fruit at someone's house because it wasn't organic. Some people appear to have completely taken leave of the humane values that were supposed to drive this philosophy in the first place.

I believe it was BelgianSheepDog who recently said that she finds the whole idea of having a parenting "style" with a name to be silly and bourgeois. I'm tempted to look up the exact quote and make it my signature.

Just look at some of the input whenever class/welfare issues are discussed. There are A LOT of people on this site who have no idea how the other half lives, and we make a major mistake if we think that doesn't color our collective concepts of AP/NFL purity and what it takes to achieve it.

I also think that rigorously adhering to the whole checklist is a sign of lack of independent thought. Which is not to say that everyone who happens to do everything on the list lacks independent thought - but the pursuit of the list as such is frankly kind of sad.

I guess what I am inarticulately and somewhat ungraciously trying to say is that MDC's collective self-image as "crunchy" rings false for me because it doesn't seem to have that much in common with the concept of the countercultural lifestyle and aesthetic I would previously have designated as "crunchy granola" before discovering MDC. A large part of that lifestyle is individualism and nonconformity, not only from the "mainstream" rules but from the whole idea of living by a rulebook, in general. I see many, many references to lifestyle choices that lie beyond the purview of MDC's specific AP/NFL obsession that would instantly disqualify someone from being "crunchy" in my perception if I met them in real life. That's not a judgment, it's just reality. It partly refers to me; I am not the epitome of countercultural lifestyle, myself. But I have not allowed MDC groupthink to colonize my lifestyle concepts. Anyone who thinks you can tell how "granola" someone is by enumerating from a finite list of specific practices doesn't know what "granola" means.

By strict MDC logic, the trim blonde McMansion-dweller who spends thousands on hyena fluff is crunchier than the tattooed inner-city punk mama who uses sposies because she has neither a washing machine nor a car to get to the laundromat. (Or make up whatever example you want.) It's patently absurd.

IOW, it's already mostly WF shoppers who feel uncomfortable spanking, and the crunchier-than-thou dynamic doesn't help matters. The rest of our lives are just too messy.

Another thought: in any given MDC discussion, a huge red flag goes up for me when someone starts saying "Noone can make you feel guilty" in defense of something they or others have said to...well....make people feel guilty. I think "noone can make you feel guilty" is the MDC equivalent of Godwin's Law! Much of what I see on this thread is the same idea generalized to the site as a whole.

Beware of the mentality that only people with everything checked off the list fully belong here and the rest of us should just be sitting at their feet. Life is full of ambiguity. This is a discussion site. If the only thing that matters is either/or determinations with regard to a few specific practices, what is there to discuss?
 
#175 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post
Another thought: in any given MDC discussion, a huge red flag goes up for me when someone starts saying "Noone can make you feel guilty" in defense of something they or others have said to...well....make people feel guilty. I think "noone can make you feel guilty" is the MDC equivalent of Godwin's Law! Much of what I see on this thread is the same idea generalized to the site as a whole.
Yes. The whole "No one else can make you feel guilty" routine is functionally equivalent to, "I can trash you as much as I like, and if it hurts you, it's your own damn fault."
 
#176 ·
Working through this thread. It's hard to know who's extreme really, imo, b/c a poster who may be extreme in one area might not be as extreme in another area. It's easy to assume that those who are the resident experts in diapermaking 101 are also the resident experts in gardening, soap making, gentle discipline, whatevering. I learn a lot from people here, "extreme" or not, but I only find it holier than though when the tone is condescending and tends to assume the worst on behalf of the poster. I see it enough, but I think it's still in the minority. It's why I mostly stay out of certain forums, actually.

I think the ideas behind NFL are wonderful and feminist and earth friendly, and sometimes I think they go so far full circle that they wind up being even more sexist than mainstream parenting expectations. I think it should be about common sense, responding to your kids, and respect for little ones- not so much mommy martyrdom. There's always room for improvement for me I think, but there is just no way I could do it ALL right now in my life- and it's not helping anyone when women feel like they have to be complete, self-sacrificing, one-woman shows, producing everything their family needs and being the epitome of a gentle spirit 100% of the time. I love the tenets of AP, but I don't think they every really existed or exist outside of the vacuum of patriarchy in any form, so it's not really surprising that there are the same pressures and endless rounds of guilt for moms, even if they are doing some great things for themselves and their family (because you could always do more...)
 
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