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#241 of 327 Old 03-07-2007, 02:52 PM
 
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WHO is saying that "extremists" aren't welcome here?
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#242 of 327 Old 03-07-2007, 04:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jamsmama View Post
Actually had nothing to do with your post at all.
I still don't understand the point of posting that emoticon.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#243 of 327 Old 03-07-2007, 05:52 PM
 
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WHO is saying that "extremists" aren't welcome here?
: I think there's some confusion here. I don't think anyone is saying that extreme mamas aren't welcome, or even that their opinions aren't welcome.

I think it really comes down to:
-Intent
and
-Tone


That is where the golden rule, and being gentle as you would with your kids comes into play, in my view. It's entirely possible to express yourself without being rude or condescending. And it's not about watering down your beliefs, it's about giving people (even people you disagree with) the respect that you would like them to give back to you.

I value the extreme mamas viewpoints, knowledge, and experience. I value considerate, compassionate extreme mamas even more.

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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#244 of 327 Old 03-07-2007, 06:11 PM
 
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: I think there's some confusion here. I don't think anyone is saying that extreme mamas aren't welcome, or even that their opinions aren't welcome.

I think it really comes down to:
-Intent
and
-Tone


That is where the golden rule, and being gentle as you would with your kids comes into play, in my view. It's entirely possible to express yourself without being rude or condescending. And it's not about watering down your beliefs, it's about giving people (even people you disagree with) the respect that you would like them to give back to you.

I value the extreme mamas viewpoints, knowledge, and experience. I value considerate, compassionate extreme mamas even more.
Is it kosher to : a : ?
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#245 of 327 Old 03-07-2007, 06:23 PM
 
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FWIW I think there is a distinction between "natural mommas" and "AP mommas".....

For example, I have a friend who had her first baby at the same time I had my second. She CD's, buys the expensive wooden/waldorf toys, eats only organic from the local co-op, makes her own baby food, etc But she said to me "I read about AP and it seems like too much work." Her DD sleeps in a crib down the hall, she only uses a stroller (despite buying an expensive, beautiful mei tai), gives her daughter formula to supplement because she doesn't want to be a "pacifier", and takes every opportunity to leave her 6 month old daughter with a sitter so she can go "be an adult". (I'm not saying this because I think it's bad - it's just not AP by her own definition!)

Whereas I'm definitely more AP - co-sleep, EBF, babywearing etc. But the natural stuff is something I only sort of strive for. I use Disposable diapers, mostly eat organic but don't want to drag my butt to the co-op so end up shopping at Safeway, sometimes make my own baby food, and don't really care if my kid is chewing a plastic toy....so I'm not so natural.

I'm wondering if that is some of the distinction you all are seeing?

peace
robyn

Hi Robyn,

I see that distinction too. There are a lot of moms in my area who are fairly "crunchy" but not very "ap". They do a lot of crunchy things but they also CIO, are not interested in GD, and think AP is "too much work" or a bad thing. The reason I'm here is to be in a place where AP is considered normal and also to learn about "crunchy" stuff.
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#246 of 327 Old 03-07-2007, 06:35 PM
 
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V
Once at a playgroup where mothers in charge of the snack were specifically told to please bring fruit. I saw potato chips sitting on the table for all children to take. I nearly lost it. I actually asked out loud and in a voice that manifested my dismay, WHO BROUGHT POTATO CHIPS? At which point this very soft voice said, "Oh, I did. I'm sorry. I didn't realise that anyone would mind and could not think of what else to bring". At which point I apologised for sounding so harsh and explained that I was, um, rather particular about what DD ate.

But you see, in the end, it was not she who was in the wrong for bringing chips, it was I who was "too fussy".
I don't really see anyone as being wrong here. The person who brought chips instead of fruit didn't follow iinstructions but they weren't deliberately trying to harm anyone. It sounds like they were just a bit clueless. You were also not wrong for not wanting to have potato chips served. You made yourself clear and apologized for sounding harsh. I'm not criticizing you, but instead of speaking loudly you could have just taken the bag and then asked around whose it was and asked them to put it away.
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#247 of 327 Old 03-07-2007, 07:16 PM
 
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I still don't understand the point of posting that emoticon.
Ahh geez, I just posted the emoticon as a way to say "wow, this thread is making me scratch my head" I guess I should have included the verbage as well. My apologies to anyone who didn't understand. I didn't mean anything condescending or rude when I posted it. My apologies.
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#248 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 02:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
In my experience, simply suggesting what has worked for me, or stating my opinion IS taken for trying to convert people. When I respond to "trouble with breastfeeding threads" my suggestions on how to make it successful are seen as formula bashing, 'cause I mean heaven forbid you work hard to avoid it. By being determined not to do something you are automatically seen as "anti [insert parenting choice here]".

And THAT is why I no longer frequent "mainstream" boards. Or even voice my opinion in real life for that matter. I can't innocently say that my daughter is breastfed and that we don't use formula without coming across as anti formula. It gets old.

At a recent gymboree class we were all talking about different brands of clothes and how some fit differently in the waist and how it's different from girls clothes to boys clothes. I made the innocent comment about my daughters cloth diapers sometimes making it hard to find pants that fit without being too long to make up for room in the butt. I could see about 3 different women all start squirming at the mention of cloth diapers, and before I knew it the conversation morphed into the million reasons why these women choice not to (or rather "couldn't") cloth diaper. WTF?

I don't squirm or get uncomfortable when there is a conversation about what brand of sposies is best, or about what brand of formula is best, and I think that's because I'm comfortable in my parenting choices. When people come across as preachy, judgmental, and converting I think that half time it's because the other party is NOT comfortable in their decisions.
I completely know what you're saying! Someone can simply see ds' cloth diapers and start trying to validate their reasons for never being able/willing to do cloth. I'm always thinking, "Um, I never even said anything about CD and I really don't care that you're using Pampers so stop trying to defend yourself already!" :

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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#249 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 12:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jamsmama View Post
Ahh geez, I just posted the emoticon as a way to say "wow, this thread is making me scratch my head" I guess I should have included the verbage as well. My apologies to anyone who didn't understand. I didn't mean anything condescending or rude when I posted it. My apologies.
No worries! I just didn't understand what you are trying say. It's all good.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#250 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 01:42 PM
 
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I completely know what you're saying! Someone can simply see ds' cloth diapers and start trying to validate their reasons for never being able/willing to do cloth. I'm always thinking, "Um, I never even said anything about CD and I really don't care that you're using Pampers so stop trying to defend yourself already!" :
People give examples like this a lot - the experience of having others strike up conversations about why they don't do whatever granola thing you're doing.

I wonder if it never occurs to folks that in many if not most of these cases, people are just making conversation, and they feel free to do so because they don't load whatever choice is being discussed with the same value judgments we do. I think the perception that those people are trying to "validate"..."justify"..."defend"...etc, is often a projection of our own judgments of them. I think mainstream people often start these discussions because they see the issue in question as innocuous, even trivial - a safe topic for casual conversation.

I just wonder if it's possible to be more objective and open-minded in trying to understand why people say the things they do, rather than instantly jumping to "oh she must be feeling guilty because she's not exactly like me" in every case.
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#251 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 01:53 PM
 
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People give examples like this a lot - the experience of having others strike up conversations about why they don't do whatever granola thing you're doing.

I wonder if it never occurs to folks that in many if not most of these cases, people are just making conversation, and they feel free to do so because they don't load whatever choice is being discussed with the same value judgments we do. I think the perception that those people are trying to "validate"..."justify"..."defend"...etc, is often a projection of our own judgments of them. I think mainstream people often start these discussions because they see the issue in question as innocuous, even trivial - a safe topic for casual conversation.

I just wonder if it's possible to be more objective and open-minded in trying to understand why people say the things they do, rather than instantly jumping to "oh she must be feeling guilty because she's not exactly like me" in every case.
Sure . . . irl, though, you can often tell the difference between random conversation and defensiveness . . . of course, if you're often silently observing interactions between those around you, and you hear the "she thinks she's better than me because . . ." after you've already heard "she" say nothing of the sort . . . well, that doesn't leave a lot up to the imagination.
fwiw, if someone saw I was using cloth and started commenting on it immediately (even how they "couldn't"), I would interpret it as curiosity.

Either I have a lot of faith in people to not seek out underlying meanings to what they say, or I simply have so little respect for the "just-tell-me-what-to-think" crowd that I simply don't care to try and interpret them . . . I haven't figured out which.

Anyhoo, off I go again to analyze why I'm posting to this thread, which probably has little bearing on my life as a whole . . . (or does it? Is a discussion like this conducive to personal growth? Hmmm . . . )
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#252 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 02:12 PM
 
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Hi, several posts have been removed from this thread that were discussing other members, specifically Granola Ambassadors. If you have issues with the actions or views of a GA, or any other member of this community, you are asked to take it to PM, either a mod, or the admimistration (Abimommy or Jacque Savageau)

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Do not start a thread to discuss member behavior or statements of members made in other threads or to criticize another discussion on the boards. Do not post to a thread to take direct issue with a member. If you feel a member has posted or behaved inappropriately in a discussion, communicate directly with the member, moderator or administrator privately and refrain from potentially defaming discussion in a thread
Thank you for your understanding

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#253 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 02:19 PM
 
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Sure . . . irl, though, you can often tell the difference between random conversation and defensiveness . . . of course, if you're often silently observing interactions between those around you, and you hear the "she thinks she's better than me because . . ." after you've already heard "she" say nothing of the sort . . . well, that doesn't leave a lot up to the imagination.
But it's not always false that "she" thinks she's better than the person. And "she" doesn't have to explicitly say so for the person to know it. That "ability to tell the difference" cuts both ways.
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#254 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 02:25 PM
 
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No worries! I just didn't understand what you are trying say. It's all good.
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#255 of 327 Old 03-08-2007, 02:34 PM
 
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But it's not always false that "she" thinks she's better than the person. And "she" doesn't have to explicitly say so for the person to know it. That "ability to tell the difference" cuts both ways.
Yep, you're right. Both ways. And we see both scenarios here on MDC. And they both suck.
I would also put forward that a tendency to infer things that aren't there can occur in both instances.
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#256 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 12:09 AM
 
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Sure . . . irl, though, you can often tell the difference between random conversation and defensiveness . . . of course, if you're often silently observing interactions between those around you, and you hear the "she thinks she's better than me because . . ." after you've already heard "she" say nothing of the sort . . . well, that doesn't leave a lot up to the imagination.
fwiw, if someone saw I was using cloth and started commenting on it immediately (even how they "couldn't"), I would interpret it as curiosity.

Either I have a lot of faith in people to not seek out underlying meanings to what they say, or I simply have so little respect for the "just-tell-me-what-to-think" crowd that I simply don't care to try and interpret them . . . I haven't figured out which.

Anyhoo, off I go again to analyze why I'm posting to this thread, which probably has little bearing on my life as a whole . . . (or does it? Is a discussion like this conducive to personal growth? Hmmm . . . )
Yes, you can tell the difference.

Nicole, mom of 3. Mitochondrial Disease.: Epilepsy
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#257 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 12:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post
I think the perception that those people are trying to "validate"..."justify"..."defend"...etc, is often a projection of our own judgments of them. I think mainstream people often start these discussions because they see the issue in question as innocuous, even trivial - a safe topic for casual conversation.
I think that is distinctly different then the example I gave above. In a group of women talking about girls and boys trousers and how they don't fit well, my mention of DD's cloth diapers making the situation even more frustrating opened the door to; "OMG, I couldn't imagine cloth diapering my children, I have better things to do", and "yeah, besides, it's disgusting anyway", and my all time favorite; "I don't have time to spend all day scrubbing shitty underpants, I have better things to do, like play with my son".

And it all started with one innocent comment in a discussion as generic as the weather. Why? Because I feel that they were threatened by a parenting choice that I suspect they knew was better then their choice to use disposables.

I got the feeling that they were justifying their actions. Can't do cloth diapers because you have 4 children and 10 loads of laundry every 2 days, right? Can't do cloth diapers when you nearly wretch everytime you clean a poopy diaper, right? Why bother with cloth diapers when you recycle everyday anyway, that's good enough, right? Those are justifiable reasons *not* to use cloth diapers.. in THEIR eyes.

Have you ever met a smoker who lights up in front of you, then proceeds to give you 10 reasons why they haven't quite, or if they did, why started smoking again, and then follows up with all the other healthy things they do to make up for it? It's the same sort of thing.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#258 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 01:30 AM
 
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I definitely know what you mean. It's like when you go to a restaurant and order a veggie burger and everyone else gets meat. You don't have to say ONE WORD about vegetarianism! or anything connected with food! and someone will make a comment. This never happens with my friends, but it absolutely happens if I am eating with 'mainstream' people.

I used to work in the office of an insurance company and I liked to go for a walk on every lunch break. I also never ate any of the candy and junk that was always around the office. I never said anything about any of this! but MAN, it was like the obsession of half the people there. "How can you not eat this? Gee, I wish I would go for a walk!" etc. etc. THEY were the ones who wouldn't stop talking about it--not me.

I have a neighbor who is very nice but whom I now sort of avoid--because two seconds after she says Hello she starts comparing her daughter (unfavorably) to my son. The daughter is usually standing there holding her mom's leg listening while her mom goes on and on about how much more social my son is (or worse), etc. It makes me so uncomfortable I actually avoid her a little, to spare her poor kid this humilation. The poor little girl always looks so sad.:

People do indeed compare themselves to you, and will tell you about it. They will also become defensive and perceive that your actions are a criticism of them when you are doing nothing but live the way you usually do.
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#259 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 01:50 AM
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I had somebody flip out on me before because I use a Diva Cup instead of tampons or pads. Apparently I was "judging" her for not using one. I only use one for comfort.

I've also been through the babywearing/vegetarian/breastfeeding thing. The veggie was the worst because it was back in high school and nobody understood why I wouldn't want to eat meat. People with strollers give me the evil eye when they see me wearing my baby. People with bottles stare me down when I say I don't use bottles. It's bizarre--I don't really care what they're doing so why are they sooo offended by what I'm doing? Or by what I'm not doing??

FTR, I don't cloth diaper because I'm too lazy and despise laundry. I have no problem admitting that. I used to CD and now I don't. Kudos to those of you who do--maybe someday I'll rejoin you. I doubt it because I like my Huggies, but it could happen.
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#260 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 10:21 AM
 
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Can't believe this thread is still going! Hasn't this horse been flogged?

Roman Goddess, mom to J (August 2004) and J (April 2009).    h20homebirth.gif signcirc1.gif
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#261 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 10:26 AM
 
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Can't believe this thread is still going! Hasn't this horse been flogged?
How is that a helpful post in any way? Obviously the horse has not been 'flogged' for other people. Nobody is obligated to contribute. I actually think this is a very important discussion for this community to have.
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#262 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 10:34 AM
 
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It's like when you go to a restaurant and order a veggie burger and everyone else gets meat. You don't have to say ONE WORD about vegetarianism! or anything connected with food! and someone will make a comment.
This definitely happens... but I usually use it as a chance to inform others of factory farming. I don't get on a soapbox or anything, just politely tell them why I choose not to eat meat. Whatever they do with the info is their choice, but it's amazing how many people have the idea in their head that their meat comes from animals that spent their lives frolicking in a farm.

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People with strollers give me the evil eye when they see me wearing my baby.
This really could just be people being curious. Until a few months ago, I had never even seen a person use a sling. I'm sure she saw me "eyeing" her, but I assure you it wasn't evil. I was just amazed and interested.

Has anyone ever read the book Momma Zen. The author writes of this comparison phenomenon. It's pretty interesting.
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#263 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 10:34 AM
 
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FTR, I don't cloth diaper because I'm too lazy and despise laundry. I have no problem admitting that. I used to CD and now I don't. Kudos to those of you who do--maybe someday I'll rejoin you. I doubt it because I like my Huggies, but it could happen.
If everyone was so confident in their decisions like that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Frankenstein never scared me. Marsupials do. Because they're FAST.
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#264 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 11:34 AM
 
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FTR, I don't cloth diaper because I'm too lazy and despise laundry. I have no problem admitting that. I used to CD and now I don't. Kudos to those of you who do--maybe someday I'll rejoin you. I doubt it because I like my Huggies, but it could happen.
I don't do bottles because I hate washing up and I'm too disorganised
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#265 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 11:53 AM
 
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I want to have CHOICES and OPTIONS to do whatever I want and I want my work to be valued. This is what feminism means to me.
: This is exactly what I thought when I read the OP. Feminism to me is the freedom to choose without having to defer to a man or become 'manly' to do anything, which I suppose is just autonomy really.
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#266 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 11:55 AM
 
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It could be that this is one of those things where when you are the person who does the thing that other people aspired or wanted to do but didn't they HAVE to tell you why.

I run into this with people I know who have not had children. I can't tell you how many stories I've gotten from people who seem to think they need to explain to me why they didn't have any. The ex-bf who loudly talked to everyone in the area about his vascetomy and how he'd be glad to talk to anyone's partners about it was amusing. Or how they have cats/dogs instead of children (I've taken to telling them that my DH is allergic, so I guess we had to have babies).

On here though - well this is a discussion board ABOUT these issues. People are comparing notes because that is what a topical messageboard is about.

The reaction from the "less-extreme" people could also be because it may come off from some that anyone who is not extreme doesn't "belong" here. You DON'T hug trees, have bunnies of light, think tofurkey is evil because it mimics meat, think even cloth diapers are too unnatural, etc? Time to LEAVE!!
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#267 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 12:27 PM
 
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: This is exactly what I thought when I read the OP. Feminism to me is the freedom to choose without having to defer to a man or become 'manly' to do anything, which I suppose is just autonomy really.
But feminism is NOT -depriving babies of their birth rights because hey "if mama ain't happy ain't nobody happy".
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#268 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 01:30 PM
 
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No, I don't think feminism is about whatever choice you want- the word choice can really get corrupted. But I think with AP there is a real danger of mother's rights and needs getting completely sidelined to an unhealthy extreme.
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#269 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 02:11 PM
 
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If everyone was so confident in their decisions like that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
This is very true.
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#270 of 327 Old 03-09-2007, 02:14 PM
 
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Location: Oxfordshire UK
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Uh-oh I should have been clearer.

The OP questioned the compatability of AP and feminism. I am talking about choice as in if I choose to bf and bake cookies for example I am able to make that choice - it has not been forced upon me even though to some it may seem to be a 'traditional' unemancipated role.

In the UK at least there was a feeling during the 80s that if one put family before oneself that was stabbing feminism in the back because feminism at that time only seemed to see the role of wife and mother as a subjugated one.
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