Teaching Abstinance Until Marriage - Page 5 - Mothering Forums
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#121 of 280 Old 06-16-2003, 09:05 PM
 
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nope, no sexual addiction here. i started masturbating when i was 4; should i have been going for sexual addiction counseling when i was 4? puhleeze...that's exactly the kind of thinking that had me in pastors' offices trying to get "demons of lust" cast out of me. the only reason i felt guilty about it was that i was told it was wrong (i was told this when i was about 7) and because my mom kept asking if i had dealt with my "problem." and as far as your analogy goes, well, the way i see it, sex drives are biological, no different than any other biological need, like hunger.
you don't have to eat m&m's, but you do have to eat.

oh and by the way, i don't have problems with self-control. i woke up one day six years ago and stopped eating meat and dairy, so i know from self-control.

i plan on teaching my kids that there is nothing wrong with masturbation, and i'd prefer them to do that than have sex before they are ready.
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#122 of 280 Old 06-16-2003, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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"Perhaps if the OP's parents had not shamed her, but rather talked to her, helped her work through her sexual feelings, helped her recognize them as normal and come up with contructive ways of dealing she would not have felt that she couldn't control herself."

Are you refering to me?? Because I'm the OP of this thread and I've never been shamed by my parents regarding sex.

BTW, I wasn't refering to an association with shame and addiction. You were using shame as an example of way to define addiction IE that the person felt shameful for what they were doing. But, that only indicates that someone else (probably someone from their childhood) had a problem. Not the person masturbating or having sex. Because shame is something that is taught from someone else, not something that people inherantly feel about any act.

All this talk about self control. Many of us feel that it is not necessary to deny their sexual desires provided they are done with other consenting adults, or alone. I definately dont' feel that "self control" is needed in regards to masturbation. Her masturbation was/is a constructive way of dealing with her (or anyones IMO) sexual feelings.
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#123 of 280 Old 06-16-2003, 09:55 PM
 
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#124 of 280 Old 06-16-2003, 11:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by lilyka
[B
A good book on all of this is "i Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Joshua harris. It is excellent and even though I had been married several years it tough me a lot about what it reallyt means to love someone. I wish I had read it 10 years ago.
[/B]
Just a note....this book was good in theory....but in reality I really didn't like it....even though I don't believe in dating (see above post )

Even James Dobson (Oh my ) says that masturbation is an ok thing. AS LONG AS it does not cause guilt on the person who is doing it or causeing "impure" thoughts.

My dh and I were both virgins when we marriedour wedding night was far from awkward and even though we had no idea what we were doing...it was still great. I'm still all for teaching abstinence until marriage but if my children choose to not follow this.....life will go on.....

Single Mom to 2 amazing little men. T(7) and B(5)
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#125 of 280 Old 06-16-2003, 11:29 PM
 
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The urge to reproduce is the single, biggest driving force of each and every organism in the Universe. It even outweighs the desire for self-preservation.

IMO, teaching children that sexual desire can be overcome with simply the right amount of "self-control" is setting most of them up for failure and the guilt and shame that results from failure (note I said most, not all, thus accounting for the minority of happy pre-marital virgins). I cannot see how you can explain abstinence as "honoring God", or categorize masturbation and fornication as "sin", and then not expect children (and adults!) to bear the burden of shame and guilt themselves when they expectedly fail to "control" their sex drives.

I personally believe that a life without sex or masturbation is so unhealthy and unremoved from human nature as to be practically pathological. The epidemic of priests and other celibate clergy abusing children, not to mention the illicit affairs and illegitimate children documented throughout history, is IMO proof positive that Mother Nature cannot be beaten down. We WILL try to propagate our species, even to the detriment of our eternal souls.

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#126 of 280 Old 06-16-2003, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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alright Piglet, ITA!
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#127 of 280 Old 06-16-2003, 11:47 PM
 
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Preach on, Sister Piglet!
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#128 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 12:02 AM
 
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wow,
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#129 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 12:08 AM
 
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Whjile I dont' agree "completely" with piglet..... I have to say because most of it I do

Single Mom to 2 amazing little men. T(7) and B(5)
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#130 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 12:44 AM
 
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thanks, you guys <blush!>

...i am feeling however, that by stating my opinion with such conviction, i may have given the impression that i think the "abstinence" mamas are doing wrong by their children. we are all entitled to our beliefs, and to pass those beliefs on to our children. i hope that my post above did not come across as a direct attack on that - what i meant was to inspire some thought to those who DO believe in abstinence, so that they can take great caution to ensure their children do not suffer the guilt and shame of "failure" if they fail to live up to such high personal expectations. i know MDC mamas are, if anything, fiercely devoted to their babies, and i hope i didn't make anybody feel that i thought you were harming them by sticking to your faith. i just think you have "a very tough row to plow", to use a biblical metaphor.


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#131 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 01:41 AM
 
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I was a virgin on my wedding night and I was 26 yrs old. I do not think it's unrealistic.

My husband was not a virgin and he never once pressured me to have sex while we were dating. He knew that I wouldn't and he loved me enough to respect my decision.


A little OT but it was mentioned about educated people being democrats and liberal--ok, I graduated Cum Laude from college and am as far from being a liberal as possible. I think that there is no way on earth that an assumption can be made that educated people are liberal and uneducated are conservative--wow!

Malissa
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#132 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 02:43 AM
 
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#133 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 02:46 AM
 
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Just wanted to add something from the experience of older, wiser parents I know, and from my own perception...
Many of you seem to see it as very hard or a sacrifice for my children to be virgins until they are married.
I do not really see it that way. I think they will accomplish it with no problem (and reap the benefits it brings).

For one, this is pretty much all they know. (Just like my kids do not know who Barney is or what commercials are, etc.) The friends they grow up with will have our values. Their friend's parents share our values. Our church shares our values. What we let into our lives (TV, books, etc.) shares our values. So, to our children and to us, this is completely normal.

If we were mainstream parents with kids in school, I think it would be almost impossible.

Also, God is very powerful and real to us. He is with my children every day helping them in whatever they need. They can pray to Him if they need strength. He will not let them be tempted beyond what they can handle.

For me, I did have sex before I was married. I was not a Christain, and neither were my parents. In fact, my parents were pretty awful to me. When DH (my first bf) and I had sex, it was a conscious, well-thought out decision. I was perfectly capable of deciding not to. It was not some accident. If I (a very hormonal, desperately in-love fifteen year old with an all-too-eager bf and a crappy homelife) was able to step back, look at the situation, and have a rationial conversation about it before seriously considering the decision... Then surely, my great APed, Xian children with a great homelife can stop and think and make the right choice.

I think it is a great thing in life to have strong values and morals. They are not just some hard things you have to sacrifice for for no reason.

This will probably shock people further, but we also do not believe in masterbation (at least for the guys). In the origional language of the Bible, the same word (zerah?) is used for "child/ren" and "seed"(semen). There are other reasons as well, but that is getting too OP.
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#134 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 03:12 AM
 
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EXACTLY PERFECTLOVE!!!!
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#135 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 03:56 AM
 
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#136 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 07:53 AM
 
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I am curious as to how many on here who waited for marriage wish they didn't and how many who didn't wish they did. Serious question, b/c there seem to be a lot of people who won't teach abstinence, who didn't practice it and assume certain things about those who do/did, and therefore think that those who will teach it, will be harming their children.

I know a lot of people on here were taught abstinence and did not practice and are upset that that is all they were taught, therefore have chosen to teach their children differently, so it's not that I'm not hearing that, but I'm curious about my opening question in this post, if anyone wants to share.

My answer, I was taught abstinence, did not act on it, and I wish I had. (BTW- my parents never told me a thing about BC- but I managed to know all about it on my own by the time I was 15 or so, so their lack of teaching me about it, did not bring me to harm(and nope it wasn't taught at school either), maybe I was overly smart back then, surely not now )

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#137 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 09:14 AM
 
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Do you know what percentage of priests and other celibates had eliecit affainrs, illegitimate children and abused children. Obviously some did. However, MOST did/do not. It is the MINORITY of priests who were not celibate. The MAJORITY of priests and other celibate are true to celiebacy.
I'll have to disagree with you there, Amelia. Unless you can show me stats about celibacy. Having been around the Catholic church most of my life, I feel comfortable in saying that MOST priests do not remain celibate.

Perhaps you meant to say that most do not sexually abuse children, which I agree with. Fortunately, that does not appear to be a majority.



As for the rest of the discussion................I've only been able to read bits and pieces but it is very interesting!
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#138 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 09:38 AM
 
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I know a lot of people on here were taught abstinence and did not practice and are upset that that is all they were taught, therefore have chosen to teach their children differently, so it's not that I'm not hearing that, but I'm curious about my opening question in this post, if anyone wants to share.

I was only taught abstinence. In an earlier post I explained how it affected me. I was never taught about bc. Looking back, someone should have taught me about it. I was hell bent on finding out what was so dirty, impure, or sinful about sex. <sigh>

You bet I will teach my children differntly, I would be a hypocrit if I did not. I can say with certainty, had my parents responded to my problems as a teen with understanding and bc education, my problems wouldn't have been so large. My therapy bill might not have been so large either.

Jenny
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#139 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 09:50 AM
 
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#140 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 09:52 AM
 
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Jenny,

I am not trying to discount what you have said, I am simply asking a different question, many have stated that they were taught only abstinence and think that was wrong for various reasons, I am still curious about what I asked though, how many who didn't wait wish they had, and how many who did wait wish they hadn't, I am already clear that there are many on here who didn't wait and don't regret it.

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#141 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:06 AM
 
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I was raised in an extremely catholic household and was only taught abstinence. I did not wait until marriage and I'm extremely glad that I didn't. My parents didn't subject me to weekly interrogation about it, but I would have cheerfully told them what they wanted to hear if they did.

BTW, I also would agree that most priests do not remain celebate throughout their careers.
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#142 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:10 AM
 
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#143 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky

I won't say any of these people have NEVER masturbated. I will say that they DON'T by any means masturbate on a regular basis, and if they did masturbate it was when they were younger and immature (not saying the masturbation per say is immature, but for some people it is an immature behavior), that they don't do when they are mature.
How on earth could you know this?

And re: the 11 year old who promises to wait for marriage- well, I always thought I would wait for marriage too- but then I matured into a sexual being. An 11 year old is too young to make this decision, too young to make promises about it. Share your values with her, by all means. But it seems wrong to pressure her to make promises about something she is too young to fully understand.
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#144 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:27 AM
 
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#145 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:29 AM
 
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An 11 year old is too young to make this decision, too young to make promises about it. Share your values with her, by all means. But it seems wrong to pressure her to make promises about something she is too young to fully understand.
ITA -- personally, I would be careful not to solicite promises from a child of this age, about things she/he can't possibly understand yet. Its unfair to require a commitment from a person who doesn't yet know what that commitment entails.

AND -- I wouldn't expect my child to make a promise to ME about sex. To a partner, sure. To God -- maybe. But if my kids have sex, they shouldn't feel that they are being unfaithful to *me.* That is a misplaced sense of responsibility. I don't want them to behavior in certain ways just to please me. I want them to have their own sense of morality and internal controls -- whatever those controls end up being is something they will need to work out.
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#147 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:34 AM
 
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Patty,

I see, in my half asleep mode, I forgot to answer the question. Do I wish I would have waited? No. Do I regret having sex before marriage?No.

Do I wish I had made different choices? Yes.

I feel that most (if not all) of my bad decisions as a teen resulted in lack of information. Also, it was a lack of communication and acceptance on my parents part. Had I been educated properly about masturbation and sex (outside of marriage) I think my choices would have been different. I may not have acted on some of the feelings I had. Maybe I would have decided that it was ok just to masturbate. Maybe I would have decided that I liked sex (normal) and asked for the pill. I regret the unprotected sex not the pre marital sex.

Honestly, I just wish I could have been a normal teenager with normal sex issues. I wasn't bad, I wasn't evil, I was just normal. No, my only regret is living with the guilt for so long.

Jenny
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#148 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:35 AM
 
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Amelia,

You will never convince anyone on here that you know people who are celibate at an older age, and that they are normal, you also will not convince anyone on here that most priests and nuns remain celibate, or even that they do their very best to. I also have many examples like Amelia's but I know they fall on deaf ears.

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#149 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:37 AM
 
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#150 of 280 Old 06-17-2003, 10:44 AM
 
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nak, typos probable

My parents are fundamentalist christians and my brother and I were certainly raised with the expectation that we would marry as virgins. It didn't happen, and I feel my parents were not only disappointed, but very threatened, by that.

When my brother moved in with his girlfriend at the age of 20, my parents cut off contact with him for more than a year. When, at the age of 28, he and the woman who is now his wife got engaged, she was pregnant. My parents told them that the pregnancy was God's judgement on them for fornicating.

:Puke

While I was "living in sin" with my now-DH, they tried bribery, manipulation, emotional blackmail, and outright deception to get me to move out. They thought he was the devil incarnate and were not reticent about telling me so. It was not until after we married -- without their blessing or presence -- that they could even see what a nice guy he is, or how much he loves me.

I had sex for the first time at 18. I don't use the phrase "lost my virginity" because it implies a piece of myself is forever gone, and I don't feel that way about it at all. I have had sex with several people. I don't regret it. I don't feel in the least that my relationship with my DH was impoverished, weakened, or compromised because of that.

OTOH I do feel that my parents have lost something. They have done damage to their relationships with their children which may never completely heal. Their relationships with their grandchildren have been tainted, too.

I think that people certainly have the right to teach their children "purity" or whatever, but I think it'd be wise to consider exactly how important it is to you, and exactly how you will react if they make different choices.
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