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Old 09-15-2007, 02:25 PM
 
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The only conclusion that can be drawn from them is that the person believes that the children are intentionally left to broil to their deaths.
I do think this woman was to concerned with her self and her own life and her own stuff to take care of her kid. yes, i think she probably "forgot" but she has a history of doing this. She has done it before. Her tape in the police office is far from remorseful IMO, she just goes on about how she was trying to do stuff for everybody else yadda yadda yadda. If you are so overwhelmed that you forget your kid in the car once, like she had already done before this happened, then maybe you need to reevaluate your priorities. obviously her child was very low on her list of things she cared about. She sure as heck made sure her coworkers had their damn doughnuts. I would like to see charges filed, her serve jail time, and have her rights to her other child terminated.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:29 PM
 
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Actually she had no history of forgetting her children in the car.

Rather she'd been warned by her daycare director not to leave her sleeping toddler in the car while she ran inside to collect her 5 year old.

Just to keep the facts straight.
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Old 09-15-2007, 02:32 PM
 
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Well, in one case that I know of, the mother did those things, putting the sleeping baby in the father's car at the office, talking to the father briefly outside the office before leaving for her own job. The father got an involved cell phone call, ended up running back into the office for something, and got involved in work again, forgetting that the child was in the car. He wasn't normally the parent who took the child, and he slipped back into his work routine automatically.

In the case of the father in the article (which I recommend reading), he had A LOT on his plate, extraordinary stress and circumstances, with a lot of unusual errands and children to care for that day.

I think that it's much easier to forget a child under unusual circumstances, or when there is more than one parent or caregiver involved -- allowing more opportunities for crossing of signals. Unfortunately, a sleeping baby turned around backwards in a seat that is always there being taken somewhere by a parent who doesn't normally have the child is more likely to be forgotten if they are not part of the parent's normal routine.

I've never forgotten any of my children, but there have been times when I've had to look back and make sure that they were there. Stress does crazy things.

Obviously, not every case is a case of a parent forgetting, and sometimes people lie. My point here is only 1> that it IS possible for otherwise good people to forget/not know that their child is with them, and 2> that automatically charging people with crimes, and leaving it to be sorted out by the already overburdened court system is probably not the best course of action. It's the DA's job to determine whether or not charges are necessary (and we know that even that system has its faults).

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Old 09-15-2007, 02:40 PM
 
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Actually she had no history of forgetting her children in the car.

Rather she'd been warned by her daycare director not to leave her sleeping toddler in the car while she ran inside to collect her 5 year old.

Just to keep the facts straight.
Thanks for saying this. I was wondering where some people got the info. that this woman had a "history" of doing this.

In response to the previous poster, I wonder if the woman's other child wants to lose his/her mother. I wouldn't say I wanted the woman's parental rights terminated without even knowing how her child felt about this.

This is part of my concern (which I know I've expressed previously) about instantly slapping charges on a parent prior to the investigation: from my understanding, CPS automatically takes the other children and they can end up being gone much longer than the length of the investigation.

Even if charges are dropped, those kids might be still be separated from their parents for a long time. The separation makes sense if the children are really scared of their parents and don't want to be with them. But if they're just aching to be with their parents, it seems cruel to set up a situation where they're having to process the loss of a sibling in a strange home or institution.

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Old 09-15-2007, 03:42 PM
 
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Yeah...lets just get rid of the whole justice system.
I don't believe I said that. But I am continually amazed at the complete lack of compassion shown for the parents by people on this board.

It always comes down to I save my compassion for the child. I don't understand why we're all so perfect that there isn't any room to be just a tiny little bit compassionate to everyone involved.

It sounds like there is a desire to shame the parents and make sure they are publicly identified as those horrible people who didn't care about their child. It's such an interesting POV coming from people who are so against shaming, labeling, and punishment.

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Old 09-15-2007, 03:53 PM
 
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, I wonder if the woman's other child wants to lose his/her mother. I wouldn't say I wanted the woman's parental rights terminated without even knowing how her child felt about this.
I know LOTS of kids in the foster care system whose parents abused them who didn't want to be seperated from their parents. This mother is to wrapped up in her self to be a mother. I have almost no compassion for a monster like this who leaves her child to broil and bake in her own car, ESPECIALLY after leaving her child in the car the day before.

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Actually she had no history of forgetting her children in the car.

Rather she'd been warned by her daycare director not to leave her sleeping toddler in the car while she ran inside to collect her 5 year old.
isn't this a history of doing the same thing? AND it was the DAY BEFORE her child baked to death that she was warned by her daughters school not to leave her child in the car.

She is obviously a sick woman, and is very self absorbed, as are so many parents today. I feel terrible for her daughters and for her husband, but have no pity on her for putting herself above her children. She obviously has much more love for her co-workers than for her child.
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Old 09-15-2007, 04:01 PM
 
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It sounds like there is a desire to shame the parents and make sure they are publicly identified as those horrible people who didn't care about their child. It's such an interesting POV coming from people who are so against shaming, labeling, and punishment.
Yes. I didn't get a response when I shared, earlier in this thread, about some of the things I've learned through practicing gentle discipline with my children. But it really seems connected to me. I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on everyone, whatever the age.

I also don't understand the reasoning that, "I have to choose one person to have compassion for, and that's it." Does that mean if you have 2 or more children, you're forever taking sides in every dispute? You literally can't ever empathize with both your children?

Of course, many of us who are learning to attachment parent and practice gentle discipline, didn't get these things when we were growing up. Maybe our attachment-parented children are the ones who will grow up and bring the compassion full-circle. I hope so.

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Old 09-15-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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I realized post was too personal, and deleted it.

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Old 09-15-2007, 04:06 PM
 
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I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on everyone, whatever the age.
I agree with compassion. Most people who know me think I'm one of the most compassionate people they have ever met. There is a BIG difference between having compassion on somebody, and seeing justice. Just because we have compassion, doesn't mean that we also don't want to see someone punished for their crimes. Being gentle, compassionate, etc... should NEVER exclude justice because they are all interrelated.
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Old 09-15-2007, 05:24 PM
 
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I agree with compassion. Most people who know me think I'm one of the most compassionate people they have ever met. There is a BIG difference between having compassion on somebody, and seeing justice. Just because we have compassion, doesn't mean that we also don't want to see someone punished for their crimes. Being gentle, compassionate, etc... should NEVER exclude justice because they are all interrelated.
Ah, see, but I personally struggle with society's NEED to punish people for their crimes. I see a need to end crime, I see a need for people to make reparations for their crimes to the extent that it's possible, I see a need for people to learn to make better decisions, and I see a need for those among us who are not able to stop hurting others to be placed in secure locations for the protection of us all. However, the need to punish others, to make certain that they feel shame and feel bad for what they've done, in the name of justice, is an ideal that I've been having trouble with as of late. I'm not sure that one can truly have compassion for someone and punish them at the same time. As I see it, punishment and correction are two different things, as are justice and punishment.

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Old 09-15-2007, 05:27 PM
 
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Yes. I didn't get a response when I shared, earlier in this thread, about some of the things I've learned through practicing gentle discipline with my children. But it really seems connected to me. I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on everyone, whatever the age.

I also don't understand the reasoning that, "I have to choose one person to have compassion for, and that's it." Does that mean if you have 2 or more children, you're forever taking sides in every dispute? You literally can't ever empathize with both your children?

Of course, many of us who are learning to attachment parent and practice gentle discipline, didn't get these things when we were growing up. Maybe our attachment-parented children are the ones who will grow up and bring the compassion full-circle. I hope so.
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Old 09-15-2007, 06:44 PM
 
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What a sad topic.

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Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Yes. I didn't get a response when I shared, earlier in this thread, about some of the things I've learned through practicing gentle discipline with my children. But it really seems connected to me. I think attachment parenting should increase our capacity to have compassion on everyone, whatever the age.

I also don't understand the reasoning that, "I have to choose one person to have compassion for, and that's it." Does that mean if you have 2 or more children, you're forever taking sides in every dispute? You literally can't ever empathize with both your children?

Of course, many of us who are learning to attachment parent and practice gentle discipline, didn't get these things when we were growing up. Maybe our attachment-parented children are the ones who will grow up and bring the compassion full-circle. I hope so.
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Ah, see, but I personally struggle with society's NEED to punish people for their crimes. I see a need to end crime, I see a need for people to make reparations for their crimes to the extent that it's possible, I see a need for people to learn to make better decisions, and I see a need for those among us who are not able to stop hurting others to be placed in secure locations for the protection of us all. However, the need to punish others, to make certain that they feel shame and feel bad for what they've done, in the name of justice, is an ideal that I've been having trouble with as of late. I'm not sure that one can truly have compassion for someone and punish them at the same time. As I see it, punishment and correction are two different things, as are justice and punishment.
:

I know when I think of the suffering of those little ones, I want desperately to believe that *I* could never be *that* parent. I cannot imagine forgetting my child was in the car, much less forgetting and leaving my child all day. But really, I have not walked a mile in the shoes of that mother who left her baby in the car. I cannot say that it would never be me, b/c I realize that it could be under the "right" circumstances-because I am human, and not fundamentally different from that mother. We love to believe that "we" are so different from "them, those people who do bad things." But we aren't, really. We are so much more alike than we are different. Beyond that, this mother is a human being, and human beings are complex and affected very much by their circumstances. And so yes, I have as much compassion for the mother as I do for the child. Compassion is not approval, compassion is not excuse, compassion does not preclude accountability, responsibility, making reparations, or protecting the public. Compassion is merely seeing the humanity of the other, in it's complexity, rather than seeing only their actions and judging by such a narrow view. And, too, compassion is seeing ourselves in the other, because we are all human.
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Old 09-15-2007, 06:45 PM
 
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Ah, see, but I personally struggle with society's NEED to punish people for their crimes. I see a need to end crime, I see a need for people to make reparations for their crimes to the extent that it's possible, I see a need for people to learn to make better decisions, and I see a need for those among us who are not able to stop hurting others to be placed in secure locations for the protection of us all.
That's where I'm at, too. IMO, people who've received empathy as children learn to feel empathy for others. When parents model empathy to their children, and help their children think about how their words and actions affect other people, their children usually grow into individuals who automatically feel remorse when they realize they've caused someone pain.

When someone manages to grow up without ever learning empathy, and seems unreceptive to learning it as an adult (and harms others), I agree that this person poses a threat to society. I totally understand the need to take protective action. But punishment? What these people need is empathy -- to get empathy to the point where they've been filled enough to care about the feelings of others.

And in the meantime (yes, I fully realize some may never get this need filled within their earthly lifetimes),

they (people who harm others without remorse)

do need to be in a secure place where they can't do more harm. But punishment serves absolutely no purpose.

Punishment serves no purpose for people who have empathy -- because they already feel remorse and are eager to make restitution in any way they can. And punishment serves no purpose for the ragaved souls that lack empathy -- because they're not capable of remorse and are likely to just become increasingly bitter and estranged from society.

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However, the need to punish others, to make certain that they feel shame and feel bad for what they've done, in the name of justice, is an ideal that I've been having trouble with as of late. I'm not sure that one can truly have compassion for someone and punish them at the same time. As I see it, punishment and correction are two different things, as are justice and punishment.
Yes (the bolding is mine).

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Old 09-15-2007, 06:53 PM
 
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We love to believe that "we" are so different from "them, those people who do bad things." But we aren't, really. We are so much more alike than we are different.
Yes, I hear the same criticism directed at crime victims. It's professionally called "blaming the victim." It scares us to believe we live in a world where horrid things can happen. We want to find some way to distance ourselves from the victim, to reassure ourselves that we're "more different than alike."

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Beyond that, this mother is a human being, and human beings are complex and affected very much by their circumstances. And so yes, I have as much compassion for the mother as I do for the child. Compassion is not approval, compassion is not excuse, compassion does not preclude accountability, responsibility, making reparations, or protecting the public. Compassion is merely seeing the humanity of the other, in it's complexity, rather than seeing only their actions and judging by such a narrow view. And, too, compassion is seeing ourselves in the other, because we are all human.
Yes ... that's profound.

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Old 09-15-2007, 07:41 PM
 
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I don't believe I said that. But I am continually amazed at the complete lack of compassion shown for the parents by people on this board.

It always comes down to I save my compassion for the child. I don't understand why we're all so perfect that there isn't any room to be just a tiny little bit compassionate to everyone involved.

It sounds like there is a desire to shame the parents and make sure they are publicly identified as those horrible people who didn't care about their child. It's such an interesting POV coming from people who are so against shaming, labeling, and punishment.
But this lady is ridiculous. Going to the car to get donuts and still not realizing that her child was in the car?

I am not saying that every time this happens someone should get in legal trouble. But this particular case sounds like there is a chance that mom knew her child was in the car.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:51 PM
 
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..Her tape in the police office is far from remorseful IMO, she just goes on about how she was trying to do stuff for everybody else yadda yadda yadda..
Good god. She's catatonic at times, panicky and near hysterical at others. She says she wants to die, she doesn't want to live without her child because they are everything to her. She says she is the worst parent in the world and asks what kind of a person does this?

Even the police interrogator breaks down and starts consoling her after awhile.

You're an odd one for me to understand, erin_d_a.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:57 PM
 
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If investigation reveals it was a true accident and the parents are remorseful and grieving, no, I don't think charges should be filed.

If, however, the child was left by say, a DCP, even if it was an accident, charges should absolutely be filed.
Why? Isn't a parent more likely to remember their child in the car than a daycare center?

(I'm not against pressing charges against a DCP as a concept, just curious why parents should get off and they shouldn't.)

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Old 09-15-2007, 08:10 PM
 
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Why? Isn't a parent more likely to remember their child in the car than a daycare center?

(I'm not against pressing charges against a DCP as a concept, just curious why parents should get off and they shouldn't.)
I agree with you -- but I'm supposing the pp sees the forgetful DCP as negligent of her paid duties -- whereas parents aren't paid to be parents? I dunno. I wish I knew what ThreeBeans meant.

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Old 09-15-2007, 08:48 PM
 
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As a parent and a DCP, I can't see a difference between forgetting one of my own kids and one of the ones I watch.

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Old 09-15-2007, 09:11 PM
 
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As a parent and a DCP, I can't see a difference between forgetting one of my own kids and one of the ones I watch.
I see your point. But some parents feel more critical of a DCP who, for instance, yells at children -- even parents who yell a lot themselves. They hold the DCP to a higher standard.

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Old 09-15-2007, 09:59 PM
 
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You're an odd one for me to understand, erin_d_a.
darn and you were the one I was trying to impress. Shoot, guess I failed.
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Old 09-15-2007, 10:23 PM
 
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darn and you were the one I was trying to impress. Shoot, guess I failed.
Well, at least you're willing to own up!

I wonder what it's like when you're NOT trying to impress anyone.

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Old 09-15-2007, 10:36 PM
 
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As far as this Ohio lady (brenda the doughnut lady) I feel she should be charged for being negligent. If you look at the video from the doughnut shop, didn't she leave the baby in the car there too? This is why I think it's good that it is illegal to go more than 10 feet from teh car in CA and leave child in car. If you do it often it becomes a bad habit and then it is easy to forget about the child because you are used to going into places without your child in your arms or following behind you.

It's crazy that she is eager to go back to work. I don't think I could bear to return to the spot my child died by my negligence every day.
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:37 PM
 
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I'm going with YES I think the parents should be charged. I have never forgotten one of my kids but I am not someone who doesn't understand how that happens. I do understand it. I am TERRIFIED of doing it. I check my kids car seats compulsively. If I ever do forget, I think I would deserve to be charged.
to respond to the following:
"So any time a child dies while in the care of his parents the parents should be charged with a crime and let a trial by jury work it out?"
I'd say yeah. that's kind of the whole point.
I also agree with the person who said being held accountable would help them deal with it.
I don't think thats too harsh. If a child dies, there needs to be someone looking into the death.
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Old 09-16-2007, 01:32 PM
 
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"So any time a child dies while in the care of his parents the parents should be charged with a crime and let a trial by jury work it out?"
I'd say yeah. that's kind of the whole point.
I also agree with the person who said being held accountable would help them deal with it.
I don't think thats too harsh. If a child dies, there needs to be someone looking into the death.
I agree that someone needs to be looking into the death -- but an automatic charge of murder or manslaughter? Do you realize how that affects the other children in the home? CPS won't currently let children stay with parents who've been charged with the death of a child.

I know I keep going over the CPS thing -- but it seems awfully uncaring to say "any time a child dies while in the care of his parents the parents should be charged with a crime and let a trial by jury work it out."

When you say any time a child dies, this includes all manner of accidents and illnesses. Things the parent may not have even been able to prevent. To automatically slap a criminal charge on all such cases (I guess even SIDS deaths) is to automatically jerk the surviving (and grieving) siblings away from their parents.

I don't see how this kind of "accountability" would "help me deal with" my child's death. It would just create more pain for my family, more issues to deal with in working to get my other child home, and, once she's home, to help her work through the trauma of spending months in foster care.

An automatic charge doesn't necessarily mean a prison term for the parents -- but it does mean an automatic imprisonment (of sorts) for the other children in the home. They're the ones being punished.

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