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#181 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 03:54 AM
 
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No. I did not see her coming out of the house. And YES, it is entirely possible that she made up the story about being in the house. She DID come from the area of the house, but we didn't see her actually come out of the door. She HAD snuck out either in the night or early in the morning. She DID have their skateboard, AND she knew the neighbor girl's name, even though her mother had never heard of the new girl before.

As I said, this neighbor girl escapes occasionally. She gets in trouble constantly, she is completely unsupervised at home, and that is why she can leave so easily. There isn't even a screen on her window, and her window is in the front of the house.

So, the part about her being "missing" was not a suprise. But, I was surprised when she said "Katies dad let me borrow this". So, since she knew the new girl's name, had apparently been out most of the night, and had their skateboard, I will assume she was telling the truth. She doesn't lie very often.. she pretty much just tells you what is on her mind, even if it is shocking and innapropriate . But, it is not out of the realm of possibility either. I don't think she would steal the skateboard though.
I'm going to don my flame-proof suit and say this as gently as possible.

But based on the different versions of the skateboard story that you have presented -- which each got a little more damning -- I'm going to respectfully submit that you've gotten carried away with your fears. First the girl was riding down the street, then she was inside his home at 7 am, and then he had something to do with her being missing overnight because she came out of his house.

Perhaps your reasoning is sound and you have a child molestor and a girl in need in your neighborhood. I am not in any way trying to diminish your instincts and intuitions about something being a little off.

But your versions of other facts are becoming more inflammatory and damning, and it does make me wonder about the rest of the story.
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#182 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 08:48 AM
 
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I believe you, i do. But i have such a hard time wrapping my mind around how an attentive parent could not know *something* was going on with the child. Because then what we are essentially saying, is that sexual abuse doesnt hurt the child in any obvious way, it doesnt change behavior, it doesnt cause any physical ramifications, the child never acts out...that there are no signs. How could there be no signs?

There was a terrible case recently that was in the national news, about a little girl caught on tape being raped by a pedophile, they tracked down the girl, turns out the man was somehow involved with the child's babysitter. The mother of the child says (its been a few years)she had no idea anything happened, and that the girl herself doesnt remember. I dont really "get" how you can drop your perfectly healthy well adjusted three yr old at the babysitter, pick her up a few hours later (after she's just been brutally assaulted), and not realize *something* is up with your kid? Maybe you wouldnt automatically jump to abuse...but something?

I guess i'm veering close to mother-blaming, and i dont mean to, honestly. But i can pick up on when my child has gone to a friend's home and come home with hurt feelings, even if he didnt say anything. I can tell when my child is not wanting to tell me something. I can tell when my child is feeling under the weather, or there is a cold or sickness coming on, and he's just not his usual self. So, for those of you who have been in situations similar to Nature's (child being abused, and mother or someone else close to the child truly doesnt know)....how is it that this happens? I always jump to the conclusion that if the mother doesnt know, its because she doesnt *want* to know, won't allow her mind to go there. Maybe some pedophiles are so incredibly slick they can cover their tracks well....but can the child herself do such a good acting job, 100 percent of the time?

This topic is so depressing.


Katherine
I think in some cases the changes in behavior coincide with other changes in the child's life.....school starting, puberty, etc. The signs can't be distinguished b/c they are happening around stressful situations anyway. It doesn't mean the mother/father doesn't see a change.

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#183 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 09:35 AM
 
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SIGNS??

Many of you here are talking about getting to know the familiy and look for signs. This may have been the only sign....ever. You can't predict the future and you sure can't change the past. So while you sit there and wonder about the new family that little girl could be getting raped every day.

Let see either she is getting raped or the guy is totally innocent. Which one am I more worried about?

Yeah it could be wrong...but...what...if...it's....not!

I was a victim of sexual abuse by at least 4 different males in my life. It got to be "normal" for me. Almost every interaction I had with a grown male would turn into some type of inappropriatness. I didn't tell until anyone until I was 14 or 15 and my stepfather started paying attention to me. The man asked me to try on my new bathing suit and had his pants undone and his penis out when I came out. He would sit on the couch next to me and pull off his tie stretching his arm out to brush my breast. I would wake up at night and find him standing over me, touching me. I finally had enough power to protect myself because my stepfather was a weak, passive man but if he was determined and aggressive I may have been victimized further and longer.
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#184 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 09:41 AM
 
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SIGNS??

Many of you here are talking about getting to know the familiy and look for signs. This may have been the only sign....ever. You can't predict the future and you sure can't change the past. So while you sit there and wonder about the new family that little girl could be getting raped every day.

Let see either she is getting raped or the guy is totally innocent. Which one and I more worried about?

Yeah it could be wrong...but...what...if...it's....not!

I was a victim of sexual abuse by at least 4 different males in my life. It got to be "normal" for me. Almost every interaction I had with a grown male would turn into some type of inappropriatness. I didn't tell until anyone until I was 14 or 15 and my stepfather started paying attention to me. The man asked me to try on my new bathing suit and had his pants undone and his penis out when I came out. He would sit on the couch next to me and pull off his tie stretching his arm out to brush my breast. I would wake up at night and find him standing over me, touching me. I finally had enough power to protect myself because my stepfather was a weak, passive man but if he was determined and aggressive I may have been victimized further and longer.
I agree the mandated reporter who was at the party could look into the issue further if she feels the need to do so. As far as I can tell, the majority of people were not talking about doing nothing.....I personally was saying get to know the family's background a bit further b/c there could be other things happening that no one knows about.

I get this is a personal subject and our experiences will determine our reaction. I think it is difficult to make a judgment on anyone based on a brief meeting. I think that first impressions can be wrong and I have personally experienced being wrong about my first impression about someone.

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#185 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 09:52 AM
 
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I believe you, i do. But i have such a hard time wrapping my mind around how an attentive parent could not know *something* was going on with the child. Because then what we are essentially saying, is that sexual abuse doesnt hurt the child in any obvious way, it doesnt change behavior, it doesnt cause any physical ramifications, the child never acts out...that there are no signs. How could there be no signs?
I can only answer for my situation, and how I guess a lot of them play out. For me, I was molested since birth. It was chronic, ritualistic, and repetitive. So for me, I literally had no idea that it wasn't normal. It was simply something I grew up with. Much like how in some other countries 10 year olds getting married, and having babies is their normal. I might have been in the US, however in my little corner of the world I didn't know any different. I went to a christian school that didn't teach anything about "my body" and good touches and bad touches. In fact, years later the pastor at my school started fondling me as well and no one knew. When I tried to speak out about him, I was laughed at. He's still the pastor there today.

I can honestly say, as a child.. my father molesting me didn't have any impact on my life. It was normal to me, so why would there be an obvious impact? Later on, oh yes. I am not minimizing the effects of molestation at all! But when its chronic from a very young age, the impact sometimes just isn't there. It becomes as normal as Saturday morning cartoons and the grumpy old lady next door that scowls at you every day.

Backrubs were his method. Every day he'd rub my back. And eventually he'd have me flip over. When I was 9, it was the first time I experienced an orgasm from something he'd done. This was NOT normal from my experiences. It scared me. So later, I told my aunt about it. I had hoped she would explain to me what happened. Instead, I never saw my father again and I was forced to tell my "story" over and over and over again. To be honest, I had no memories of other times he molested me aside from that one. My mind was blank. Only years later did I start to see flashbacks of other times, varying ages. In fact, not until after the birth of my first child.

Backrubs were important to me on one level. Since birth my grandmother always rubbed my back to help me sleep. We co-slept until age 9 as well. (my grandmother and I) So backrubs had a very positive connection to me. Its how I felt loved. So my father rubbing my back all the time wasn't something that was odd to me. In fact, that made me feel loved. That fact that he took other liberties wasn't even something that registered as bad. I was more traumatized by the police and DA involvement than from the molestation itself. The ramifications of being molested didn't happen until after I was nearly an adult and lost my virginity.

The only thing that could have ever been seen as a red flag back when I was a child, was that I did act out sexually with one friend of mine. But from most posters in previous threads on MDC about sex play, most feel its totally normal and age appropriate. However, mine was not. I was consumed with recreating feelings in my body. I masturbated a lot. Again, something that can be totally normal. So did my grandmother completely miss the signs? I don't think so. I know they were not right in her face. The sex play was never under her watch, it was always at a friends house because the mother didn't stay in the room with us. I masturbated in my bed at night once the lights were off. I doubt she even knew how much I did because it wasn't obvious.

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Having CPS show up at your door doesn't scar your reputation for life. I'll even go out on a limb and tell you that its happened in my family.
I disagree here. I'm glad your experience wasn't negative and didn't scar you for life. However mine did. And our reputation is ruined in this area for life.

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#186 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 09:58 AM
 
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I agree, it really is depressing.
To answer your question Nature, no I've never had those feelings and it turns out they were wrong. Thank gods I dont get them all that often to not rememeber the outcome of my creepy feelings tho.
I did mean that if there was nothing to the charge, then the parents weren't "crappy". Having CPS show up at your door doesn't scar your reputation for life. I'll even go out on a limb and tell you that its happened in my family.
If the friends or family don't accept that there was a misunderstanding, I don't think they thought that highly of the accused to begin with.

We're all about perception. My perception is different than yours, I accept that. If someone percieves my child to be in danger from me, I'd hope that that someone would dig a little further before calling me in. THAT is what I was saying. Innocent people are persecuted all the time, I don't know what else to say about that. But I believe that protection is the first priority.

What it comes down to is believing that a child is in danger and debating what to do about it. Like I said, knowledge is power. Do some investigating of your own. If it turns out to be what you thought, then call in the big guns.

This is clearly a very sensitive topic and due to its sensitive nature, emotions can become high and words misunderstood. These are the dangers of online communications.
Houdini and Demeter I just went back and read all the posts between you two and I think that you are both being general in your statements but then the other takes them personally. Your communications have become too distorted to keep clear and I hope you both take a step back, maybe reread your posts and try again to avoid someone becomming seriously offended and hurt.

This is my only problem with what you said. What qualifies anyone that is not trained in child abuse to investigate. What would you have to hear, see or sense that would tell you, "Yep, that girl is molested by her stepfather."? I really, really want to know.
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#187 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 10:00 AM
 
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I'm going to don my flame-proof suit and say this as gently as possible.

But based on the different versions of the skateboard story that you have presented -- which each got a little more damning -- I'm going to respectfully submit that you've gotten carried away with your fears.......
But your versions of other facts are becoming more inflammatory and damning, and it does make me wonder about the rest of the story.
I don't think the OP has made vastly different versions of the story or that she is trying to skew the presentation of the facts at all. I don't get that. From my view, the OP is trying to sort out whether her gut feelings are correct or not.

It sounds like you are scrutinizing and suspecting the OP, and I don't see any indicator at all that she is exaggerating or lying. I believe your scrutiny is misplaced.
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#188 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 10:50 AM
 
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I wish there was stats on it. I doubt that anyone has done a study on it.

However, you may go out and talk to ANY people who lived in a place with a molester. A town with "that guy". Any sub-culture or group or neighbourhood. Where EVERY person saw something or knew something and every one of them let it go.

Oh, it was just once. Oh, it was a mistake. Oh, he's "off" but not really that bad. Oh, they ask for it and he can't help it. Oh, he's misunderstood. Oh, I can handle him. I taught my children better. He didn't really mean to put his hand there, tickle her there, that boob-grab was an accident....etc. etc. etc.

Molesters and pedophiles are rarely unknown. They are simply ignored. They rely on your and my complicity.

When you out them, and try to point out their behaviour and compare notes and point out that everyone knows something about the person, everyone has seen something bad, everyone has watched him do it, people will actually fight you about it. Seen it happen numerous times now. I hear about it. I watch old ladies talk about it, and they'll ARGUE that no one really KNEW ....but every one of them has a story or ten about "that guy." And it'll be the same guy. But they don't KNOW.

I have no idea how you could study this phenomena. The one where people will tell stories about pervie-guy, and yet claim that no-one really knew at the same time. That sort of self-delusion doesn't lend itself to a survey of the people in the six-degrees around the pedophile convicted.
The majority of molesters are someone who is close to the family. A friend, a father, an uncle. MOST molesters are not known because of this, and the ones you are describing are in the minority. It is statistically proven that the majority of children who are molested are molested by someone the family trusts. I would also like to see som sort of statistical proof that most molesters are suspected by their neighbors before caught.

I know people personally who's biological father molested their children and my friend had no clue until the daughter talked to her about it. Once she know then plenty of actions were taken and the father is no longer in the home and legal proceedings have happened.


The vast majority are not 'known' or 'suspected' They are your uncles, brothers, and fathers. And to be honest sometimes even mothers. But the vast majority are not suspected until after the fact people go back and look for signs that probably weren't there to start with but make themselves feel guilty for not 'seeing' it sooner.

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#189 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 10:53 AM
 
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Maybe some pedophiles are so incredibly slick they can cover their tracks well....but can the child herself do such a good acting job, 100 percent of the time?

This topic is so depressing.


Katherine
Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.

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#190 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 10:59 AM
 
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Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.

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#191 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 12:21 PM
 
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Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.

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#192 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 01:42 PM
 
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I think in some cases the changes in behavior coincide with other changes in the child's life.....school starting, puberty, etc. The signs can't be distinguished b/c they are happening around stressful situations anyway. It doesn't mean the mother/father doesn't see a change.
Her story hasn't changed. The troubled girl came from that side of the street with a skateboard that she says was given to her by the dad to use. Nobody knows how long the girl was gone and nobody saw her come out of the house.

Oops, Sorry Houdini, I quoted the wrong person. I meant to quote the person above you. I'll leave it alone though since some threads are being removed and I'd rather not mess with what doesn't appear to be too broken.

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#193 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 01:47 PM
 
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Also, I want to address the people who are saying to invite the couple over for dinner. I would NOT invite someone into my house if I have a creepy vibe about them. I wouldn't want them to know where my child's bedroom was or the layout of my house. And yes, I AM a little paranoid about that.

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#194 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 01:53 PM
 
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Yes, the child can - I was one of those children too. Dissociation is one mechanism.

Also the tragedy of incest or child abuse is that the child kind of "normalizes" it - I mean the message that it is something to be hidden comes across, but the idea that there are secrets to be kept becomes normal and that kind of "pretending" becomes normal.

That's the hard thing about being a survivor - you have to redefine so many little pockets of normal.
So true. And hanging out with neighbors while your stepfather constantly touches you and pulls you towards him makes it seem even more normal. I remember when my stepfather got pulled over by the cops for letting me drive his car while I was sitting on his lap. I was 14 btw. The cops wanted to arrest him and kept coming over to me and saying "are you ok" "why were you sitting on his lap?" "where is your mother?" and all kinds of questions. It dawned on me that my sitting on his lap wasn't normal. I knew I wasn't comfortable, but someone outside validated it for me that it wasn't right or normal. So much worse happened in private that it hardly dawned on me that this was anything at all.

Also, I would justify that I could have it much worse....in fostercare, I would tell myself, they would rape and beat me. I would justify that I was safer here because somewhere else would be worse.

Normalization is the word.
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#195 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 01:57 PM
 
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Also, I want to address the people who are saying to invite the couple over for dinner. I would NOT invite someone into my house if I have a creepy vibe about them. I wouldn't want them to know where my child's bedroom was or the layout of my house. And yes, I AM a little paranoid about that.

Lisa
Personally, I never said to invite them for dinner, or even inside your house. I just said get to know them. Who knows, maybe the creepy feeling would be for nothing and you WOULD want them for dinner. But you'll never get to know that unless you extend yourself a bit.

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#196 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 02:02 PM
 
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Personally, I never said to invite them for dinner, or even inside your house. I just said get to know them. Who knows, maybe the creepy feeling would be for nothing and you WOULD want them for dinner. But you'll never get to know that unless you extend yourself a bit.
Yes, extend yourself, but not by inviting them inside. Maybe a few more block parties, or some one on one time with the mother. There have been a few high profile kidnapping cases where children were taken from their homes by someone who had been inside of the house previously.

Maybe out for pizza or another child-friendly restaurant..or to the movies?

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#197 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 02:15 PM
 
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Yes, extend yourself, but not by inviting them inside. Maybe a few more block parties, or some one on one time with the mother. There have been a few high profile kidnapping cases where children were taken from their homes by someone who had been inside of the house previously.

Maybe out for pizza or another child-friendly restaurant..or to the movies?
I think those are all great ideas.

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#198 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 03:18 PM
 
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I'm a bit more forward than some I guess. But I think your ideas are great as well.

To answer the question about HOW I'd gather more info, I meant finding out more about their family dynamics. Was the girl, as some have suggested here, grounded? Is there a history of social problems? Does the child have some kind of disorder that would disable her from playing? Are there extenuating circumstances, such as a violent ex, that would keep them from allowing her out of their sight? Are the step father and the girl very close and cuddly all the time?
THIS is how I investigate on my own.

But how many days have passed now since the situation was noticed by the OP? Whats been done to ensure that the girl ISN'T in any danger?
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#199 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 03:54 PM
 
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I just had to jump in here and give to all of you.

This thread has become very emotional, and personal. I think we all need to remember that everyones experiences are different. The thing about abuse, and molestation, is that there is no REAL 'pattern' for it. What is true in one case, is opposit in the other. That is why is is sometimes hard to detect, and sometimes falsly accused.

With that said, I think the OP needs to evaluated all of this as it pertains to THIS situation. Many of you are refuring back to your own experiences, and building off of that. This case is different from any I have heard on here so far. This is a father who has been around for only three years. He was very touchy feeling, and the girl seemed uncomfurtable with it. The part that keeps sticking out in my mind is that he had his hands on her chest. Girls at 10 are going threw sex edd in school. They are learning good touch, bad touch, they are learning about their changing bodys, and may even be beggining to develope. Personally, this should be the time to limit touching, and YES, it is more than okay to be effectionate and coudly. I think we all can agree that this seems, (as it was posted) to be different.

What to do? I agree calling CPS can be detremental if this feeling is wrong. However, it can be horrible if OP's feeling is correct, and she does nothing about it. What can be learned by more visits with this family? What if by getting to know them better, your feeling goes away? Does this mean your feeling was wrong? How long has this father been in the girls life? Just becuase they have only been married 3 years, he could have been around since infancy. Also wanted to point out, that any excuses of illness, being grounded, having social anxieties or the like, does not excuse touch a pre-teen in her chest area.

Some of you who have had experiences where there was no warning signs in the child, are also the ones saying not to call CPS until you get more info. If there are no other warning signs, what other info can you expect to get? I am not agreeing with one veiw or another, to be honest I can't give advise, I could only do what I felt was right if I was in that situation. I think the OP needs to read all of this back and really try to think about all sides, and how it pertains to this situation, before making any decisions.

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#200 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 03:59 PM
 
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Some of you who have had experiences where there was no warning signs in the child, are also the ones saying not to call CPS until you get more info. If there are no other warning signs, what other info can you expect to get? I am not agreeing with one veiw or another, to be honest I can't give advise, I could only do what I felt was right if I was in that situation. I think the OP needs to read all of this back and really try to think about all sides, and how it pertains to this situation, before making any decisions.
My biggest issue with the whole situation is the 1.5 spent with the family. It is taking a snapshot of the family and basing everything on that one moment in time. I am not a big proponent on basing my opinions on a person based on one brief meeting.

Again, it is all about individual perspective and level of comfort.

Rebecca wife of Megan...moms to six crazy kiddos! Seth (15), Madison (13), Zachary (12), Trevor (12), Alex (10), and Nicholas (9)
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#201 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 05:52 PM
 
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Hi, several posts have been ttmporarily removed from this thread. Let's keep this thread from becoming ugly. If you have an issue with something someone has said and feel very strongly about it, please take it to private message. The posts that have been removed either had an argumentative tone, or they quoted a posts that needed to be removed, if you'd like to edit, pm me.

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#202 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 06:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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One more update..

But, first, I hurt my back last night, and it really hurts to sit down here, so I am kinda reading the thread, but I am not posting much. I'm not ignoring the thread though.

Anyway.. The teacher mom can't give me any details, but she did say that the school is aware of a problem, and they have been dealing with it on their end. BUT, she did not say if the problem was something at home, or something at school, or something entirely different. So, I still have no idea what is happening.

I'm actually kindof relieved to know that she is doing something. I don't know it I am relieved because I didn't really know what to do and I am glad someone else is. Or if it is just because I don't feel good, and I just don't want to deal with anything else.

But, I will still keep my eyes open of course.
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#203 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 07:12 PM
 
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One more update..

But, first, I hurt my back last night, and it really hurts to sit down here, so I am kinda reading the thread, but I am not posting much. I'm not ignoring the thread though.

Anyway.. The teacher mom can't give me any details, but she did say that the school is aware of a problem, and they have been dealing with it on their end. BUT, she did not say if the problem was something at home, or something at school, or something entirely different. So, I still have no idea what is happening.

I'm actually kindof relieved to know that she is doing something. I don't know it I am relieved because I didn't really know what to do and I am glad someone else is. Or if it is just because I don't feel good, and I just don't want to deal with anything else.

But, I will still keep my eyes open of course.
kudos to you for following your instincts

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#204 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 09:17 PM
 
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I have not read this thread all the way through--so if the following points have been brought up, please disregard.

But, I wonder if 'getting to know' the family really does the OP any good?
I mean, how awful would it be to 'get to know them' and have your first and gut instincts turned around (i.e., into thinking--hey stepdad's not so creepy afterall) only to find out later that he was molesting the child all along and you were right in the first place?
I find it kind of odd that many folks on this board tell each other to 'go with your gut' and to read Protecting the Gift and other related material, but when something comes down like this, it gets a heated discussion going.

Also, I noted that there was some discussion (again, I didn't get all the details because I didn't read all the posts--so disregard if I'm off) but was there some 'talk' or neighborhood discussion (for lack of a better term) about the first impressions of many of this famiy? Some posters didn't seem happy that the OP talked to others in the neighborhood about creepy stepdad--am I getting this right?
I just want to say, when I have friends or neighbors that I feel comfortable with--I am not at all shy at saying: I saw this--did you see what I saw? Has there been that kind of talk? If so, I would say the OP is completely justified in talking to the neighbors about her concerns. I call it being validated. We do it as women all the time--and I don't think it can be compared to talking about the neighbors behind their backs. If something set the OP's radar off, and she wants to validate her feelings--did you see what I saw? I don't think that's at all talking behind the backs of the new family.

I read the initial post and then the last three or four pages of this thread. I have to say, I think I would have done the same--validated my feelings with others who were there and then consider what action I need to take. After all, she even came here to validate her feelings before running to the phone to call CPS or anyone else. I think she's got a good gut feeling and she's looking for some advice. Unfortunately, doing this may have muddied the water even more.

Finally, I do agree with the pp who said that anyone (male or female, parent or not) touching a preteen girl around the chest (or breast) area is not acceptable behavior. At all.

OP, this is a tough situation. I guess the only thing is: be sure that whatever YOU do is something that you can live with--either by making a phone call, or contacting a third party, etc., or not. Either way, there are going to be consequences. If it were me, I'd go with my gut. In all honesty, the fact that this guy has his hands on the child's chest is a big no-no and could probably be considered abuse right there. If it were a teacher or a coach doing that, they would be fired. In this case or any other, a parent or a step-parent, I still think it would be considered inappropriate behavior--based on her AGE and the ACTIONS of the parent (rubbing her chest). And I 'love on' my kids all the time--but I know I wouldn't allow that to go on at that age. No way. Kissing on the head is one thing, rubbing them over their clothes in their private areas is another.

The last thing that crosses my mind is this: I wonder if (maybe this is a stretch--maybe not) this man does this kind of thing on purpose as a kind of 'see what I can do' with the child. If this girl is being molested--in her mind--the fact that the whole neighborhood sat there and saw him do this and did nothing is probably just one more reason that she will believe that she can tell no one because no one will ever do a thing to protect her.
Because the mother didn't seem to mind may have NOTHING to do with whether the child is being molested--instead it might mean that she would choose the new spouse over the child. Oprah had an episode about this very thing (maybe a few, but I saw only one). I was pretty shocked that a mother could do this--but they can and do.
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#205 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 11:00 PM
 
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The last thing that crosses my mind is this: I wonder if (maybe this is a stretch--maybe not) this man does this kind of thing on purpose as a kind of 'see what I can do' with the child. If this girl is being molested--in her mind--the fact that the whole neighborhood sat there and saw him do this and did nothing is probably just one more reason that she will believe that she can tell no one because no one will ever do a thing to protect her.
Yeah, that crossed my mind as well, but you posted it before I could.

I pray for the day Family Court recognizes that CHILDREN have rights, parents only have PRIVILEGES.  Only then, will I know my child is safe.
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#206 of 248 Old 11-14-2007, 11:27 PM
 
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One more update..

But, first, I hurt my back last night, and it really hurts to sit down here, so I am kinda reading the thread, but I am not posting much. I'm not ignoring the thread though.

Anyway.. The teacher mom can't give me any details, but she did say that the school is aware of a problem, and they have been dealing with it on their end. BUT, she did not say if the problem was something at home, or something at school, or something entirely different. So, I still have no idea what is happening.

I'm actually kindof relieved to know that she is doing something. I don't know it I am relieved because I didn't really know what to do and I am glad someone else is. Or if it is just because I don't feel good, and I just don't want to deal with anything else.

But, I will still keep my eyes open of course.
I'm glad to hear that at least someone is looking into it.

Bethany, crunchy Christian mom to Destiny (11) Deanna (9), and Ethan (2)

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#207 of 248 Old 11-15-2007, 12:22 AM
 
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This whole rubbing the chest area I don't get. Really, were his hands ON her breasts and holding or rubbing them? or were his arms around her shoulders and above her breasts? or simply around her? It does make a big difference.

My husband puts his arms around my 9 yo dd all the time. His arms end up resting over or on her chest area. He certainly isn't rubbing anything, or touching her in an inappropriate way at all. No one is uncomfortable with it. Its not sexual or controlling. Its just his arms around her.

However it seems people are saying OMG!! HE WAS TOUCHING HER BREASTS! I need clarification. Was he really fondling her breasts in front of you? Or were his arms simply crossed around her? It makes a HUGE difference.

Because.. you know, when people hug.. they are technically smooshing their breasts up against you. No one considers that inappropriate. Its all in the intentions. Arms around a child, I wouldn't be concerned about. Groping hands and blatantly holding and fondling her breast... would be inappropriate.

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#208 of 248 Old 11-15-2007, 02:38 AM
 
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OK, here I have to seriously disagree with you. Hands on her chest is a HUGE no no.. Her chest is where her breasts will be growing, she's 10 years old. My oldest daughter is only 8, and she's been taught for a couple years already that NO ONE is allowed to touch her private areas, and her chest is included in this.
The OP wasn't confused on this point, she didn't once suggest he was fondling her, but the fact that his arms never left her was disturbing enough. There's a difference between cuddling your child and detaining your child.

I can understand not wanting to full on accuse this man of molestation, and I understand wanting to keep an objective stance here. But you seem determined in your insistance that he was not crossing any boundaries. I'm confused by your total opposition to the possibility even that he may be in the wrong.. :
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#209 of 248 Old 11-15-2007, 03:29 AM
 
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My husband puts his arms around my 9 yo dd all the time. His arms end up resting over or on her chest area. He certainly isn't rubbing anything, or touching her in an inappropriate way at all. No one is uncomfortable with it. Its not sexual or controlling. Its just his arms around her.
And thats the point in this whole thread...No one is uncomfortable with it. I think that is VERY important. The OP stated the girl looked uncomfortable. Lots of other people thought it was inappropriate (and these sound like some pretty freewheeling nonconservative people from the OPs description!)

The same action can take on a *whole* different meaning, in a different context.

Quote:
Because.. you know, when people hug.. they are technically smooshing their breasts up against you. No one considers that inappropriate. Its all in the intentions. Arms around a child, I wouldn't be concerned about. .
But now you are contradicting yourself...you said it was all in the intentions. But certain behaviors you wouldnt be concerned about. But even if this child were merely sitting on his lap, which no one would consider inappropriate....if the girl looked uncomfortable, the stepdad seemed possessive, and lots of people who were actually there thought it seemed weird...then it sorta does become concerning....because its all in the intentions.

I used to work at a nursing home for disabled children. One little girl there, maybe 8 yrs old (totally disabled, nonambulatory, nonverbal)had a stepfather who would come in and spend time with her. He would play bouncy with her between his legs, with her held close to her crotch area. He would change her diaper even though staff were more than happy to do it instead. He would wheel her around the grounds alone. One day, a coworker looked out the window and saw him sitting on the outside steps (there was no one around, and presumably he didnt know that anyone could see him, there were seperate wings to the building and he could easily have assumed that those windows were to the offices which were unoccupied on the weekend)...she saw him with the girl in his lap, and he was kissing her all over her neck and caressing her.

A stepdad spending time with his disabled daughter and merely showing her affection? Well, maybe...except most of the staff got a serious creep vibe from this guy. The staff member told on him, and we all promptly got reprimanded for "gossipping" about family members. Staff member called CPS...was basically told nothing would be done. It was terrible.

So....i still say, people should trust their instincts. Most people are good at picking up when something is a little off. I think if this was just normal affection, people would see that. I dont think its necessary to come up with some criteria (hand on knee ok, hand on thigh not ok, or whatever)....because, as you say....its all in the intentions. And since we can't know whats inside stepdads head, i think all we really have to go on is the feelings of those who were actually there.


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#210 of 248 Old 11-15-2007, 03:37 AM
 
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This whole rubbing the chest area I don't get. Really, were his hands ON her breasts and holding or rubbing them? or were his arms around her shoulders and above her breasts? or simply around her? It does make a big difference.

My husband puts his arms around my 9 yo dd all the time. His arms end up resting over or on her chest area. He certainly isn't rubbing anything, or touching her in an inappropriate way at all. No one is uncomfortable with it. Its not sexual or controlling. Its just his arms around her.

However it seems people are saying OMG!! HE WAS TOUCHING HER BREASTS! I need clarification. Was he really fondling her breasts in front of you? Or were his arms simply crossed around her? It makes a HUGE difference.

Because.. you know, when people hug.. they are technically smooshing their breasts up against you. No one considers that inappropriate. Its all in the intentions. Arms around a child, I wouldn't be concerned about. Groping hands and blatantly holding and fondling her breast... would be inappropriate.
I've actually been wondering the exact same thing while reading this thread.


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OK, here I have to seriously disagree with you. Hands on her chest is a HUGE no no.. Her chest is where her breasts will be growing, she's 10 years old. My oldest daughter is only 8, and she's been taught for a couple years already that NO ONE is allowed to touch her private areas, and her chest is included in this.
The OP wasn't confused on this point, she didn't once suggest he was fondling her, but the fact that his arms never left her was disturbing enough. There's a difference between cuddling your child and detaining your child.

I can understand not wanting to full on accuse this man of molestation, and I understand wanting to keep an objective stance here. But you seem determined in your insistance that he was not crossing any boundaries. I'm confused by your total opposition to the possibility even that he may be in the wrong.. :
I've been wondering the exact same thing, I just haven't been as vocal. I've been reading Nature's posts
and agreeing. So it's not that Nature is the only one thinking this, it's just that she's the one who has been
writing the most clear posts with this opinion.

Personally when I read the first post the only reason I felt the OP had any reason to worry was her creepy
feeling. The actions of the step-father with his dd weren't all that troubling to me personally.

-Janna, independent mother of dd, Ms. Mattie Sky born on my 25th birthday, 06*23*2000. My Mama Feb.21,1938-Sept.10,2006
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