What do you think about cub scouts? see #53 - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 80 Old 09-12-2008, 08:52 PM
 
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The military connection is the reason that we decided not to participate.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
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#62 of 80 Old 09-13-2008, 12:47 PM
 
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I told my family's story in another thread, but I'll repeat it here:

Oldest DS joined cub scouts in the third grade. Everything was going well until the den mother found out we were atheists. She sent a letter saying we were no longer welcome. I understand that the BSA is a private organization and can admit who they want, but what really made me mad was the fact that they were holding meetings/gatherings in my DS' school. In a sense, my son was told he was unwelcome to attend a meeting at his own school to which his family pays taxes to support. That seems unconstitutional to me.

I wanted to complain, but DH is a police officer :cop: and is afraid of retribution, both from the small community we live in and from his command. DH felt ashamed that he couldn't "protect" his son from this discrimination based on his job, just because of our lack of religious beliefs. The whole situation stinks. After we found out they also discriminate against homosexuals, it just cemented our belief that the organization is bigoted.

Just my two cents.

Justine, wife to DH :cop:, mom to DS(14) :, DD(13) and DS(8)
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#63 of 80 Old 09-13-2008, 12:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrietsmama View Post
Well, last night I explained that we need to find a different group to join because if Grandpa Dirck (On fire drag queen who is the only 'Grandpa' my kids have) wanted to join they wouldn't accept him because he would want to marry boys instead of girls, and they think it's wrong. He told me all the boys in his class want to marry girls, and I said, yeah, that's usually true, but some boys and girls are different and they like another boy or a girl likes another girl. I showed him pictures of Nan, who is my favorite step dad, but she's a woman (not transgender, it's just that I had so many step dads I call her my favorite one ) I still keep in touch with her, but not often enough that the kids know her, she lives too far away.

He agreed that it would be mean to tell Grandpa Dirck he couldn't be part of Boy Scouts so that worked. I am going to check out 4H.
That is awesome! If it comes up again you can throw in that some boys don't know that want to marry boys until they are old enough to marry. And some boys don't even know that you can marry boys because they've only ever known girl/boy marriages.

Third generation WOHM. I work by choice.
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#64 of 80 Old 09-18-2008, 03:29 PM
 
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This is all a huge shock to me. We just signed my 5yo up for Beavers which is coed here. I'm in Canada & my DH and I both were in "the movement" in various capacities as children. Neither of us found it militarized, homophobic or especially religious (God is in the "promise" but I never thought anything of it at all, as a kid, it was just something we were to say and pretty devoid of meaning). It was more about outdoorsmanship, team building and skills development. I got out when I got bored in Girl Guides around age 12, my DH stayed in until he was about 17 (in Newfoundland). I've never heard anything like these reports before. I know that the discussion is specifically about BSA, but i would be very interested to know if anybody has had these experiences or seen these policies in Canadian scouting becuase if it's changed like that, I'd be pulling ds right back out.
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#65 of 80 Old 09-18-2008, 04:01 PM
 
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My best friend currently works for the Scouts. From what I understand they go by a "Don't ask, don't tell" sort of policy when it comes to homosexuals or non-religious families. It also depends on the troop. Some troops focus on religion (depending on who is in charge), others don't. DH was in Scouts when he was young and his troop was very laid back about everything, including wearing uniforms and getting badges. For them it was just an excuse to hang out and go camping.
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#66 of 80 Old 09-20-2008, 12:33 AM
 
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A note and a thought or two...

First... not sure about the past history of BSA and UU, but they do currently have a Letter of Endorsement on file for the Unitarian Universalist Scouters Association... http://www.scouting.org/media/relati...s/letters.aspx

So far as the paramilitary aspect... I don't see having this as a negative link. Structure and discipline and that level of organization are not necessarily bad things. They can teach valuable lessons, and the BSA in general uses these as effective tools, not oppressive, individuality-crushing instruments. It might be different here and there, but I really have never seen or heard of the "shut up and color" attitude that is pervasive in the actual military (speaking from experience here). BSA troops, in general, teach kids to work together to make their own decisions, with adult supervision to make sure they're not really bad ones, but even within the structure, and in the uniforms, kids ARE able to have a voice and decide things. Again, I'm sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, to my knowledge anyway, troops are not authoritarian and kids are encouraged to grow and develop as individuals, even within the greater framework. And that is an important lesson - realistically, yeah, I agree that growing into independent-thinking adults and maintaining our individuality is vital, but most of us do also have to learn to live and work within the framework of a greater structure somehow, to some extent.

So far as the intolerance of gays as leaders thing, that does bother me, but I guess I have hope that things will change with time. Nothing will change, though, unless those opposed to the policy don't actually get involved and try to change it. If the local troop doesn't have it as an issue, it might just be a great way to influence things from the inside out.

Anyway, just some thoughts to throw into the fire...
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#67 of 80 Old 09-21-2008, 12:00 PM
 
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It all depends on the local troop.

My dad and brother were very involved in Scouts. I was in Explorer Scouts (the co-ed troop for teenagers). In my troop, the other kids got high on campouts. Not exactly the kind of thing I want for my kids.
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#68 of 80 Old 09-21-2008, 12:24 PM
 
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My son just joined, he's going to be 7 this week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RadUnschooler View Post
Can you tell me what they do? Are there meetings...how often? Do they make stuff at the meetings?
So far we've gotten to know our den mates, and generally just had fun. They're going to the Space 'Camp' on 10/4, and it's something like half price, and Jamboree (camping and daytime activities) is happening next month as well. We're all looking forward to that.

We haven't made anything yet.

This was intended for something for us to do with out son, both my dh and I, we alternate meetings, so he gets 1 on 1 time with each of us. So far it has been very nice. My daughter is excited about "girl scouts when I'm big" each time we mention a den or pack meeting.



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Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
I mean think about it... If the employer is heavily involved in scouting, and "drinks the kool-aide" then you are putting on your resume "I am not gay and also I am a christian, please hire me" In which case do you really want the job that "Not gay and christian" is a positive trait for being hired.

Or they are disgusted by the BSA, and you are putting "Bigot" on your resume.

Or they are clueless about scouts so "Eagle" means nothing to them.

Or you are lucky and they used to be involved in scouts and don't know/care about the homosexuality or religion thing.

It seems like the potential for harm or indifference is higher than the potential for good when it comes to putting it on your resume.
Why can't they see that it takes a lot of work and dedication to make it to Eagle Scout and see that it takes a special hard working person to obtain such a position.

For the record my cousin is an Eagle scout, as are about 5 or 6 of my friends from high school. A few of them are non-religious (as are we) and I know for a fact one of them is openly gay.

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#69 of 80 Old 09-21-2008, 09:19 PM
 
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Why can't they see that it takes a lot of work and dedication to make it to Eagle Scout and see that it takes a special hard working person to obtain such a position.
It's not that people don't understand that it's a lot of work. It's that the publicity the BSA has received in recent years has been negative for anyone who is pro-diversity - specifically pro-gay rights and pro-religious freedom. They don't allow openly gay people, and they don't support someone saying he is atheist. Those aren't acceptable positions for me. "Don't ask, don't tell" is a cop-out. So while I understand that an Eagle Scout put in a lot of work, I will assume - whether I *should* or not - that someone who's an Eagle Scout supports the BSA's positions enough to be that invested in the organization.

It's us: DH , DS ; DD ; and me . Also there's the . And the 3 . I . Oh, and .
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#70 of 80 Old 09-21-2008, 09:22 PM
 
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That's unfortunate.

~Autumn~   Mama to whistling.gif (2001) and hearts.gif(2005) partners.gif madly in love since '99 
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#71 of 80 Old 09-21-2008, 09:52 PM
 
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Well I think being involved in the BSA is unfortunate, to say the least.

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

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#72 of 80 Old 09-21-2008, 10:00 PM
 
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Canadian scouts have marched in pride parades, so...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/070300-02.htm

Not sure where they are at today. And oh yes they admit girls. I'm not sure it would be for our family but I was glad to read that story.

~ Mum to Emily, March 12-16 2004, Noah, born Aug 2005, Liam, born January 2011, and wife to Carl since 1994. ~
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#73 of 80 Old 09-21-2008, 10:06 PM
 
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Yay!

Jam 7, Peanut Butter 5, and Bread 2.

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#74 of 80 Old 09-22-2008, 08:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AutumnBreeze View Post
That's unfortunate.
Why? It's perfectly logical. If I were to put on my resume that I'm involved in the various social/political groups of which I'm a part, it only stands to reason that people reading my resume would read it and make assumptions about my personal views. For some people, it would be a bonus, and for others it would be a detriment.

I write resumes for a living. I know what I tell people about their non-work activities, and some of that discussion is about what others think when they're reading your resume. BSA is anti-gay and anti-religious diversity. If someone chooses to participate in that organization and puts in the hours to become an Eagle Scout then obviously that person doesn't have enough of a problem with BSA's positions not to give their time/money to the organization.

Now obviously age matters as these issues have become clearer, and the BSA's position more staunch, over the past decade, so a 35-year-old Eagle Scout is a different story, though a 35YO should never have something like Eagle Scout on a resume.

It's us: DH , DS ; DD ; and me . Also there's the . And the 3 . I . Oh, and .
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#75 of 80 Old 09-22-2008, 03:52 PM
 
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My mom was a den mother, and my dad was a scout leader, and they never had much to do with the religion side of things. To them, the God oath was open enough to whatever higher power you believed in (though I didn't ask them about atheism). I think it did help my brothers develop a sense of civic duty, and it gave them a direction and outlet and reality check for their interest in military type things. They learn a whole lot of skills that would usually never get brought up in everyday life, and my brothers developed an understanding that they have to work toward desired goals.

Having said that, as a queer mama and someone who beleieves strongly on religious freedom, including the freedom from religion, I find the BSA's policies to be unacceptable. Their popcorn sucks, too. I have my mom and dad's scouting books, and I'm going to use them to direct some activities for my DD and maybe some friends. There's a lot of good info and plenty of activities in them. I'm looking into the Spiral Scouts, too, but that means I'd have to start a circle here in Indiana.
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#76 of 80 Old 09-23-2008, 05:29 PM
 
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The jury's still out on Cub Scouts for Bean. I'll have to visit a local Den and get a feel for them, or look into starting one myself. The way I see it, the organization can't possibly change if people are unwilling to work on it from within... so I don't have a problem with getting involved even though they espouse beliefs that aren't remotely in line with my own.

That said, I'm working on starting both an Earth Scouts Troop and a Sprial Scouts Circle in my local area. Both groups are inclusive by definition, they're certainly not mutually exclusive, and I think that we need more alternative programs for kids to be involved with. Hopefully there are other families/parents in the area who agree with me, because I mean it when I say I really can't run things on my own right now.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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#77 of 80 Old 09-24-2008, 12:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by eilonwy View Post
The jury's still out on Cub Scouts for Bean. I'll have to visit a local Den and get a feel for them, or look into starting one myself. The way I see it, the organization can't possibly change if people are unwilling to work on it from within... so I don't have a problem with getting involved even though they espouse beliefs that aren't remotely in line with my own.
But they can be replaced by non-bigoted groups that provide the same activities OR realize that they must change if they want to keep their numbers up. And that way my time & $ don't go to support them while they have their "3,974th" chance.

 

 

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#78 of 80 Old 09-24-2008, 01:30 AM
 
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I always figure that if I stayed away from everything I disagreed with I'd have to live on a desert island by myself with only my immediate family... I couldn't live in this town because of the fundamentalists, this state because of the right/left dichotomy and politics caused by it, this country because I hardly agree with everything our government does, and even UU because I think some of their ideals and agendas unrealistic to the point of being uncomfortable with them... but I stay in all these places and groups because of the overwhelming opportunities and benefits and when I can I affect change and otherwise at least just make sure to vote.

There's nothing wrong with working things from the inside out, especially if one doesn't have the time or ability to start a whole other group and the existing group meets the vast majority of one's needs. If a local troop doesn't have the issues, I don't see denying a child the opportunities that are there while invariably positively influencing the evolution of the group.

Everyone has to tend to things to their own comfort level, though. Just adds color to the world.
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#79 of 80 Old 09-24-2008, 01:57 AM
 
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But they can be replaced by non-bigoted groups that provide the same activities OR realize that they must change if they want to keep their numbers up. And that way my time & $ don't go to support them while they have their "3,974th" chance.
I'm having a hard time finding a group that provides the same activities. Like I said, I'm working on some alternative groups but it's slow going and neither of those groups offers "the same activities" as cub scouting.

Rynna, Mama to Bean (8), Boobah (6), Bella (4) and Bear (2)
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#80 of 80 Old 09-25-2008, 02:26 PM
 
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Why? It's perfectly logical. If I were to put on my resume that I'm involved in the various social/political groups of which I'm a part, it only stands to reason that people reading my resume would read it and make assumptions about my personal views. For some people, it would be a bonus, and for others it would be a detriment.

I write resumes for a living. I know what I tell people about their non-work activities, and some of that discussion is about what others think when they're reading your resume. BSA is anti-gay and anti-religious diversity. If someone chooses to participate in that organization and puts in the hours to become an Eagle Scout then obviously that person doesn't have enough of a problem with BSA's positions not to give their time/money to the organization.

Now obviously age matters as these issues have become clearer, and the BSA's position more staunch, over the past decade, so a 35-year-old Eagle Scout is a different story, though a 35YO should never have something like Eagle Scout on a resume.
I do resume consulting too... I'm actually kinda shocked that adults would bother to put on their resume that they were a scout, unless they were applying for a job as a park ranger or at an outdoors shop or something. It's just not relevant. I have *never* seen this on a resume.
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