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#1 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I am starting to research reasons not to spank and I would like to read your most important reasons. If you could sum it up in a few sentences, like if you were convincing someone that spanking is not okay, what would you say?

It is so common, accepted and expected within our society. How do you go against the grain and ward off the naysayers. I want to do what is best for my dd and what is right. My first hurdle will be my dh. I know he sees no problems with it, and I didn't either before I was a mom. But now that I have a dd, I see it as damaging to our relationship...like CIO is damaging...a loss of trust. I also see it as humiliating and shaming.

When growing up, I felt humiliated much more so when my dad spanked me than when my mom did. My dad was full of rage. As I got older, my mom's spankings seemed like a joke because they didn't really hurt. I do not, however, know how I reacted to them emotionally when I was really young.
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#2 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 03:06 PM
 
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My number one reason for not spanking is that it encourages feelings of division and resentment. That's not how I want my children to grow up! I'm working toward removing all punitive actions from my discipline style because I believe that even non-physical punishments can create this same effect.

I live in a different area of the US, but it honestly has not been my experience that spanking is very widely accepted. I think you'll find that most people really will support your efforts at gentle discipline much more than they would if you were spanking, even if some members of your family disapprove of your choices.

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#3 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 03:14 PM
 
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I was spanked when I was a child and I remember the humiliation and shame of it, both good words to describe the feelings. However, I did spank my daughter up until she was about 5 years old. At the time it was recommended not to go over age 5 because it does more shaming and emotional hurt than it does good. Although I did do alot of things differently with her than what my parents did with me, the spanking part is something I felt was necessary at the time. I did read different viewpoints on the subject but I don't know, all I can say is that that was the "best" way to me at the time, probably the same thinking that my parents had and their parents who were even worse with them.

My daughter is now grown with a 3 year old and a baby of her own and I have step children. I have never spanked my grandson nor my step children except the girl one time but I regretted it. I find that the older I get, the more open minded I am about raising children. If I had to do it over, I would not have spanked my daughter or step daughter at all and I won't be spanking my grandchildren. I am very intrigued by GD and even some aspects of consensual living.
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#4 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 03:19 PM
 
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My dh was spanked as a child, and so doesn't feel like there is much wrong with it. But I am ANTI-spanking. I hope I never, ever, ever spank.

My husband wasn't hard to convince, thank goodness.

My reasons were:

1. It doesn't teach. The purpose of spanking is to teach a lesson, right? Well what lesson would it ever, ever teach? There is always a better way to convey your message.

2. The only thing spanking conveys to me is "a big person can hurt a small person."

3. I don't want my child to ever hit someone. That means I can never hit my child.

4. If we were to spank, when would we do it? In anger? That doesn't seem like the right way to parent. When we're calm? We're going to purposefully inflict painful punishment when we're calm? That's even scarier to me.

5. Children who are spanked, are much more likely to have violent, anti-social behavior. Even if they are spanked "occasionally."

6. Spouses who hit each other can be arrested for domestic abuse. Yet, we can hit little children?

7. I want to teach my child to talk through situations, to take a step back and analyze situations before reacting. To compromise. To fit into society well. Spanking does not teach that, IMHO.

Ok, so those reasons are mostly emotional reasons. But, I felt strongly about it and my husband agreed.
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#5 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 05:04 PM
 
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I loved Sunflowergirl's response!

I'd like to add this: At some point, a parent has to stop spanking - you aren't going to spank a 16-yr-old, right? So at the point where you stop spanking, you need to develop a different parent tool to replace it.

Why not develop other parenting tools FIRST, so you don't ever have to change your methods?

We have raised our sons based on the Golden Rule - treat others as you want to be treated. That means we treat THEM the way we want to be treated, and the way we want them to treat others. Our parenting style is based on trust and respect - they trust us not to hurt them; we respect their thoughts and opinions (even if we don't always agree with them, we listedn to them), and they trust that we will deal with issues fairly and consistently. From that comes respect for us.

There's nothing about spanking that fostors trust or respect.

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#6 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 05:05 PM
 
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Oh, and I forgot to add the sound bite:

If you can raise polite, respectful, well-behaved children without resorting to hitting them, wouldn't you want to?

If the chips are down, the buffalo is empty.

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#7 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 05:17 PM
 
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I guess the first thing I would do is to stop calling hitting children 'spanking.' Then whatever you discuss can at least be understood for what it is. Instead of asking why we shouldn't 'spank' children, we would be discussing why we shouldn't HIT children, which for me is simply a discussion about why we shouldn't HIT (anyone), because it is a form of violence, abuse, complete lack of understanding of who we are as human beings and who others are to each of us.

Hitting just isn't within my repertoire of options when I don't like how someone is behaving or responding, or whatever. It isn't in my repertoire of coping mechanisms when I don't receive what I'm expecting, just like shooting, stabbing, shoving, maiming, slashing, etc... are not. All of these are clearly actions that I am capable of taking, but I choose as a conscious person to take actions that benefit- that create- rather than injure and destroy.

These are fundamental principles by which I live, and hitting children just fits right in there with the rest of things that are not congruent with my understanding of life and human interaction.

One of the most helpful ideas for me when I am upset is to recognise that my upset is my signal that something is out of alignment with my consciousness. If I persist in my upset, I have stopped considering options and have stopped acting according to the innate creativity within me (and every human being). I have therefore begun to waste and thereby destroy- the opposite of creativity and who I am. SO, when I am upset, I must consciously choose to create- to consider options, to change myself or my situation, and to do so with the intention of the greatest benefit.

Again, hitting is so far removed from creativity that it simply doesn't even register on my radar for considering creative ways/options for living consciously with others and myself.

It's not about 'spanking.' It's about who you think you are and who you think others are. If you see others and yourself as innately infinitely valuable, you won't have to think of arguments against hitting; it won't ever be an option.

To be reeeeealy clear, you are not in the position of considering arguments against raping children. Think of hitting as being the same. At its core, I believe it is.

Well, I've been absent for 8 months, and during that time, it turns out that I have completely transformed. You are all precious. Thank you for being here and sharing your lives. You are truly a gift. namaste.gif Jan. 23, 2012

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#8 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 05:40 PM
 
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I love all the above reasons. I came from a spanking background and a community that largely still condones it so I've been where you are.


One of my biggest hurdles was the religious crowd saying that the Bible endorses spanking. It might not be an issue for you but I knew I wanted to follow what the Bible said was good for our kids, but I had a good idea that the scriptures were being misinterpreted.

Here's from Dr. Sears' Website

Quote:
HITTING IS ACTUALLY NOT BIBLICAL
Don't use the Bible as an excuse to spank. There is confusion in the ranks of people of Judeo-Christian heritage who, seeking help from the Bible in their effort to raise godly children, believe that God commands them to spank. They take "spare the rod and spoil the child" seriously and fear that if they don't spank, they will commit the sin of losing control of their child. In our counseling experience, we find that these people are devoted parents who love God and love their children, but they misunderstand the concept of the rod.

Rod verses - what they really mean. The following are the biblical verseswhich have caused the greatest confusion:

"Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him." (Prov. 22:15)

"He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him." (Prov. 13:24)

"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death." (Prov. 23:13-14)

"The rod of correction imparts wisdom, but a child left to itself disgraces his mother." (Prov. 29:15)

At first glance these verses may sound pro-spanking. But you might consider a different interpretation of these teachings. "Rod" (shebet) means different things in different parts of the Bible. The Hebrew dictionary gives this word various meanings: a stick (for punishment, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.). While the rod could be used for hitting, it was more frequently used for guiding wandering sheep. Shepherds didn't use the rod to beat their sheep - and children are certainly more valuable than sheep. As shepherd-author Philip Keller teaches so well in A Shepherd Looks At Psalm 23, the shepherd's rod was used to fight off prey and the staff was used to gently guide sheep along the right path. ("Your rod and your staff, they comfort me." – Psalm 23:4).

Jewish families we've interviewed, who carefully follow dietary and lifestyle guidelines in the Scripture, do not practice "rod correction" with their children because they do not follow that interpretation of the text.

The book of Proverbs is one of poetry. It is logical that the writer would have used a well-known tool to form an image of authority. We believe that this is the point that God makes about the rod in the Bible – parents take charge of your children. When you re-read the "rod verses," use the concept of parental authority when you come to the word "rod," ratherthan the concept of beating or spanking. It rings true in every instance.

While Christians and Jews believe that the Old Testament is the inspired word of God, it is also a historical text that has been interpreted in many ways over the centuries, sometimes incorrectly in order to support the beliefs of the times. These "rod" verses have been burdened with interpretations about corporal punishment that support human ideas. Other parts of the Bible, especially the New Testament, suggest that respect, authority, and tenderness should be the prevailing attitudes toward children among people of faith.

In the New Testament, Christ modified the traditional eye-for-an-eye system of justice with His turn-the-other-cheek approach. Christ preached gentleness, love, and understanding, and seemed against any harsh use of the rod, as stated by Paul in 1 Cor. 4:21: "Shall I come to you with the whip (rod), or in love and with a gentle spirit?" Paul went on to teach fathers about the importance of not provoking anger in their children (which is what spanking usually does): "Fathers, do not exasperate your children" (Eph. 6:4), and "Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will be discouraged" (Col. 3:21).

In our opinion, nowhere in the Bible does it say you must spank your child to be a godly parent.
I also hear 'Well it works!'
I'd probably comply with my husbands wishes too if he hit me everytime I didn't. Anyone would. That doesn't mean it's healthy.


Sorry so long!

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#9 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 06:06 PM
 
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Well do just a tiny bit of research and you'll find plenty to support the fact that it's at best not as effective as other methods in the long run and at worst, can be very damaging in many areas of a child's personality and life.

But for me, I knew long before I had a child that I would never spank. It goes back to one memory of how I felt after a spanking ... and btw, I had a pretty AP Mom and parents who loved us to death. But she occasionally spanked in anger.

Once when I was around 6 I got spanked. I don't remember why. All I remember is the pain, shame, humiliation and guilt .. and how hard those feelings were for my little brain to process. I remember laying on my bed crying, feeling so hurt that my Mom would inflict pain on me. Then I started getting mad at her, and in my 6 year old mind I had a thought about her tripping down the stairs and getting hurt. For a short second it made me feel good, almost like we were even. Then I cried even harder because I felt so guilty for having that thought and I would never want my Mom hurt.

Those are some difficult and awful feelings for a 6 year old to have to manage. That memory is still painful for me to recall. And I knew long, long before I had ds that there HAD to be a better way than spanking.

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#10 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 06:15 PM
 
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If another adult doesn't do what you want them to do, do you hit hit/spank them? No, because there are other ways of settling the dispute. Plus, hitting/spanking another adult is considered assault. Why should it be any different with a child?
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#11 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses. It doesn't feel right to "hit" my daughter and it doesn't make sense that I get to hit her but it's unacceptable in any other situation.

The biggest argument I get that is pro spanking is "kids that are too young to reason with need to know they did something "wrong" and they shouldn't do it again or that something is dangerous."

I was reading about the "danger" example in the Dr. Sears Baby Book and there was a great example of how to convey urgency and fear (parental emotional fear) that helped the child understand not to do something like go into the street. She (Martha Sears) also talked about a loud warning sound she would make if a dangrous situation arose.

Isn't there a much higher expectation for behavior in our culture than kids are really capable of at specific ages.

Also, in a way, isn't spanking the "easier" way out because it's more of an after the fact type of discipline rather than a type of guidance that helps a child through a situation in an active way... dykwim? In other words, you have to be more on top of things and more aware of what is going on with your child? Most of the time it's more about control than anything else.
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#12 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 07:50 PM
 
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Because I hear tons of people say "my parents *had* to spank me because I did XYZ", but you never seem to see anyone say "my parents *should* have spanked me."

And XYZ is generally some horrible thing that I never would've done and I can't help thinking "so getting hit as a child turned you into a teenager who was capable of *that*?"

And read the "how is this discipline?" thread for a great example of a lazy use of hitting for discipline.
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#13 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 07:58 PM
 
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There are a million reasons why I wouldn't spank, but here are my main three:

1. Everything about it feels wrong to me. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about hurting my little girl. The best advice I ever received about parenting was to trust my gut, and my gut does not condone spanking.

2. There is ALWAYS a better way. Whenever anyone tries to argue for spanking with me, I ask them to give me a specific instance when spanking is appropriate. When they describe one, I can always find a different way to deal with it.

3. I remember being spanked, and I never want my daughter to feel what I felt then.
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#14 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 08:23 PM
 
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Hitting doesn't teach and it's not acceptable.

Would you hit an elderly Alzheimer's patient to teach them something?

-Angela
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#15 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 08:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
Hitting doesn't teach and it's not acceptable.

Would you hit an elderly Alzheimer's patient to teach them something? -Angela
It may sound horrible, but I would have liked to a few times while I was working in a nursing home. Course I never DID.
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#16 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 08:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturalMindedMomma View Post
It may sound horrible, but I would have liked to a few times while I was working in a nursing home. Course I never DID.
It sounds human

I think, as parents, there are times we are all tempted to hit. We are the adults though and know better.

-Angela
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#17 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 09:23 PM
 
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First, how would I reconcile when I tell my child "Don't hit. Hitting isn't good!" and then I... hit him!?!? How do I raise an ethical and stable child with such an important topic and such a mixed message? How do I raise sons with experience of hitting as a tool of control?

Second, I would do anything as a mother to protect my child from unecessary pain I could have prevented (physical and emotional). It is contrary to INFLICT it. Sure, there will be some pain in their life, but should I be the CAUSE of it? I think my role is much better as a mentor, a healer, a protector. Imagining my child being hit just makes me... nuts with mommy rage.

There are LOTS of ways to indicate that a child has done something wrong or there is danger. First, a child will KNOW danger in your voice. My husband calls it "the crazy mom" and it stops EVERYONE in their tracks. When you see your child stepping into danger and scream their name with that crazy mom voice (that you can't even help) they KNOW that danger is near. The few times I have used it, my son, even as a toddler, would stop dead in his tracks, look up and cry because he knew he was afraid for himself. My job was to rescue him and protect him. Why would I hit him?

As for knowing they have done wrong- by the time they are doing wrong "on purpose", they absolutely can tell by the tone of your voice and your actions that you are upset with them. And if things progress beyond that, well, there are many other tools.

Honestly, they are so small, so fragile and vulerable. So innocent and trusting. To hurt them (yes, hitting is what "spanking" really is and the objective is to hurt them) is so contrary to my role as a parent and just hurts ME to think about it...
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#18 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 09:23 PM
 
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Children learn best through example. What would we be teaching them by spanking? ("When you get to be an adult, then you can hit too"?)

I'd much rather take the hard road of self-control and finding other ways to teach my child what is appropriate, because those are the characteristics I want him to develop himself over time. Not fearing me.

Amanda , mama to my two boys: N (10/06) and : A (7/09)
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#19 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 10:39 PM
 
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I hear you , OP. The only kid my husband EVER knew growing up who wasn't spanked was AWFUL. She was a 10 year old brat who would BITE people! She had major emotional/boundary issues. EVERYONE who knew her thought it was BECAUSE she wasn't spanked! So, that's my husband's frame of reference. I don't (to my knowledge) know ANY kids who weren't spanked. But it just feel SOOOO wrong to me ( and did, as a child ). I believe kids need boundaries, and FIRM discipline. I am no pushover. But there must be a better, gentler way. It's nice to know others are searching for it, also. Best wishes to you and your family.
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#20 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 11:03 PM
 
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Because I wont hit my kids

Because I want them to respect me and themselves

Because I value my relationship with them, and hitting them breaks that down

Because it's immature to hit people. Three year olds do it. 30 year olds, let's hope, have moved on with other challenges relevant to three year olds, so I lump this one in to the bunch.

Because reacting out of anger is usually a really bad idea

Because if I'm calm enough to be rational, I'm calm enough not to hit my kid

GOOD moms let their kids lick the beaters. GREAT moms turn off the mixer first!
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#21 of 76 Old 03-30-2009, 11:45 PM
 
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Hands are not for hitting.

How can I expect my children not to hit to get their way when I hit them to get my way? It's called responsible modeling, and I have to be able to show my children a better way to deal with anger/disappointment/other emotions than through physical violence.
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#22 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 01:42 PM
 
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I would say that I don't think spanking is right just because society does. It wasn't to long ago that society thought that it was a man's right to beat his wife and that no one should interfere with that right. Kids are smaller than women are and are less able to escape the abusers who birthed them because of that. If kids were able to escape and push for change in a way that was respected like women did people would not still be hitting them. They would view hitting small people as something that is just as immoral as hitting a wife.
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#23 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 02:27 PM
 
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So I have a few questions as well.. I have a 2 1/2 year old boy.. He's very intelligent. VERY strong willed. I ALWAYS try to bend down and maintain eye contact to explain to him what he's doing is wrong.. then try to give him other options. YET.. sometimes he DOES NOT CARE. I've tried time out.. and he will scream for hours on end. I'm very consistent.. yet so is HE! LOL
i was raised with spanking. I do NOT condone abuse.. EVER.. but I want to know reasons as to why a gentle swat on the butt is counterproductive. I had the previous notion that when a child is that young.. sometimes it's hard for them to get the idea that something could be dangerous(one of our battles is him wanting to open the living room door.. he can unlock the deadbolt). That is a VERY VERY serious situation.. and he does not understand the danger no matter how much I explain why it's wrong.. I do not think he fully grasps the concept. My mother says that if a child is repeating a behavior that could get them hurt.. then spanking on the bottom is acceptable. That way the child really realizes it's a BIG deal. I don't know what to think about all of it right now..I know I MUST protect my child.. and I want him to be well behaved(which for the most part he's an angel compared to all my friend's children that don't discipline )... So any alternatives? Methods that work?
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#24 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 02:51 PM
 
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bebebradford - a 2 1/2 year old can't be expected to keep himself safe. You can either install one of those locks they put at the top of doors to make it impossible for your son to open the door, or you can make sure that he never has the opportunity to open the door himself. Spanking him will not necessarily prevent him from opening the door, and I would never expect him to have that impulse control at his age. It isn't really age appropriate. If you show him your fear in your voice when he opens the door, he will grasp the seriousness better than if you give him the confusing and unrelated punishment of hitting him, but I still wouldn't put the responsibility of controlling his impulses on such a young child. You need to be the one to keep him safe.
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#25 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 03:13 PM
 
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Right- he is 2.5, the impulse control is not there and it is your responsibility to keep him safe by installing another kind of lock or whatever. You hitting him might "work" in a Pavlovian way (I open the door and I get hit. That hurts, so I won't open the door... probably), but it is not only a painful and damaging way to learn, it is not really effective in the long run (when does it end?). You can manage a lot of childrens behaviors by working on fear and pain, but it doesn't help them grow, it doesn't help your relationship, and it doesn't work in the long run.

If something is dangerous for our children, it is OUR job to make their environment safe. At some point, they learn these dangers and then we pass on that responsibility to them as they learn about them. It is a natural process. At 2.5, I had the house on virtual lock-down. No small toys for the mouth, slips on the door knobs, locks on the cabinets... Now ds1 is 4. He knows the danger of going outside without me and so we took the baby lock off the door, for example. He has toys with little tiny pieces. Your son WILL understand the dangers as he gets older, and so for now making his environment safe is YOUR job, not his.

And yes, many toddlers have strong wills. But think about it: Do you really want your position in life to be your will dominating his? You talk proudly of your own strong will (which I also think can be a very good thing). I would think the goal is to work with him in encouraging personal strength, not to crush it. It can be frustrating, but really effective and positive discipline is about learning the lesson at the right time, not about following orders.

Stepping back from our parents and deciding to parent differently can be very hard on both the adult child and her parents. The parent can feel that their child is saying they did not do a good job raising them, the adult child can feel like "well, I turned out OK but something still bothers me about this and the idea that it was wrong is upsetting because now I have to rethink this whole thing".

"A swat on the butt" is still hitting to hurt and using that fear and pain to control. There are other ways.
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#26 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 03:25 PM
 
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It just felt wrong. I can't imagine my husband backhanding me every time I do something to make him mad. I couldn't imagine backhanding him every time he makes me mad... so, how would it be O.K to spank a child.

I learned early on to do ONLY what feels right, and not worry about what others do.

My child is 16, she's never been spanked, never needed a spanking, has always made good decisions, has always been open with me, and I haven't ever wished I was a little harder on her as a child.
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#27 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 03:28 PM
 
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I don't spank my kids because in my heart it does not feel right to do. Hitting a child only teaches them that hitting someone to resolve conflict or as punishment is okay. Hitting in any form is not okay.
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#28 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 03:40 PM
 
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regarding strong willed children....
As parents we have the choice to set up a battle of the wills or to negotiate peacefully. Think of how you'd want a boss to relate to you at work for example...

This statement will work in almost any situation with a toddler to avoid a battle of the wills....

Ds, can you come to mommy all by yourself or do you need me to come and pick you up?

Ds can you get down off that counter all by yourself or do you need me to carry you down?

Can you use your gentle voice all by yourself or do you need help? (then I place my hand gently but firmly over dd's mouth if she needs help - to muffle her voice. She was great with it at first, but then it quickly lost it's "fun" appeal and so she got tired of screeching.

Anywya, then you are appealing to his growing sense of independence instead of trying to squelch it.

Id' also recommend The No Cry DIscipline Solution book for other great ideas.
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#29 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 04:18 PM
 
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Maybe someone mentioned this (I only got about half way down the thread) but in my experience, spanking doesn't teach kids not to do something, it teaches them not to get CAUGHT. Wow, do we want to encourage that kind of sneaking around and dishonesty?

Wouldn't it be smarter of us to teach them WHY not to do something - not that they might get hit, but that there's a real reason behind why we're asking them not to do it. Of course, this only works if you're asking reasonable things of your children and not enforcing arbitrary rules...

Jenna ~ mommy to Sophia Elise idea.gif  (1/06), Oliver Matthew  blahblah.gif (7/07) and Avery Michael fly-by-nursing1.gif(3/10)

 

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#30 of 76 Old 03-31-2009, 04:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post
Maybe someone mentioned this (I only got about half way down the thread) but in my experience, spanking doesn't teach kids not to do something, it teaches them not to get CAUGHT. Wow, do we want to encourage that kind of sneaking around and dishonesty?

Wouldn't it be smarter of us to teach them WHY not to do something - not that they might get hit, but that there's a real reason behind why we're asking them not to do it. Of course, this only works if you're asking reasonable things of your children and not enforcing arbitrary rules...



First, I want to thank everyone for the advice! I know parenting isn't cut and dry.. and all kids are different. I did get a deadbolt up high for the door.. but he can stand on his little chair and open it. My house is set up with baby gates everywhere. The door he is trying to open is in the living room. I have my outlets covered.. breakables in the other room .. etc. I don't EVER leave him alone for long periods of time.. but sometimes when my daughter wakes up, etc.. I have to leave the room for a moment(or grab a load of laundry, etc). I try to make him not feel as though he's a prisoner.. but I don't let him have full run of the house. Tonight, though, I'm going to see if there's anyway we can install one of those chain latches at the top of the door.. My husband previously thought it wouldn't work with the way our door frame is.. but maybe I can come up with some sort of barrier!

In response to the above quote.. you make a great point! I DO want to teach him not to do it.. in case he is with my parents.. a friends.. etc. although their house is babyproof.. you never know. I don't however know if he can be TAUGHT not to do it completely. Like mentioned by others.. I agree that a young toddler's impulses are very strong. Believe me, I've explained countless times to him.. that it's a no no, and that he could be very hurt.. then mommy would be very sad. He just say " okay mommy.. exactly" Keep in mind.. everytime I say something that semi agrees with him.. he says "Okay, exactly." LOL.. but usually a few hours later he's forgotten about it. I AM going to keep at it though.. and make it even harder to open that door.

Thanks you guys!
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