Parenting with Love and Logic and the "Uh-Oh" song. - Mothering Forums

Parenting with Love and Logic and the "Uh-Oh" song.

festivefeet's Avatar festivefeet (TS)
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#1 of 34
08-14-2009 | Posts: 100
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Hi there.

I just wanted to get your opinions on the book "Parenting with Love and Logic" and the particular method of the "Uh-Oh" song? What do you think about this book and the technique suggested?

Thanks.
Jessica
nigellas's Avatar nigellas
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#2 of 34
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I hated that book.
Polliwog's Avatar Polliwog
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#3 of 34
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I dislike that book (and it's sister books) immensely. I find them to be very controlling. May be helpful for children with severe needs but not for most families/schools. Ick.
sparklefairy's Avatar sparklefairy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by festivefeet View Post
Hi there.

I just wanted to get your opinions on the book "Parenting with Love and Logic" and the particular method of the "Uh-Oh" song? What do you think about this book and the technique suggested?

Thanks.
Jessica
The way that it was demonstrated in the video that I saw in the ONE session of the class that I attended was "mocking," IMO. Like "ha ha ha HA ha, you are SOOO busted."
LynnS6's Avatar LynnS6
04:08 PM Liked: 619
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08-14-2009 | Posts: 12,446
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Dh and I went to a whole class that was loosely based around Love and Logic. We didn't care for it. I think dh summed it up best: "Too much logic and not enough love."

I do understand some of the points that they are making: They're strong proponents of natural consequences and of letting kids make little mistakes so they can learn from them (rather than always rescuing them). I could see how with some teenagers, it might be an OK approach (without the mocking "uh-oh"). But I think there are a lot better ways to doing the same thing.
swd12422's Avatar swd12422
04:36 PM Liked: 199
#6 of 34
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Oh, gosh! I never took that to be mocking. I bought the book when DS was a few months old, and then realized that even though it says "birth to 6 years" it really isn't appropriate for babies that small. I took it out to read again now that DS is in full-bore toddler mode, complete with not listening and getting into stuff.

I'm not so much into the "song" but I was thinking I would try some things once he's a bit older. It seems like the majority here don't like it though, so what would you all recommend instead? To me, it seemed like a great approach (assuming it works, I haven't actually tried it yet) -- definitely more gentle than yelling, which is my usual MO! (And I don't like that, either and am trying to change it...)
One_Girl's Avatar One_Girl
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I read one of the older versions of the book that they had at my library and I didn't like the method. I didn't like the way the author emphasized the importance of training your kids like you would train a german sheperd dog and the roll that hitting kids played in that. I also didn't feel that the method was age appropriate. I do think that kids need to be given age appropriate responsibilities, but I think it is horrible to taunt kids and purposefully withhold help and call that love. I want my dd to be responsible, but I also want her to be a kind, caring, and helpful person and I don't see how that can happen if I don't model that in my interactions with her. The Love and Logic book seemed to encourage parents to let their kids sink and then point out that they chose to sink and then to ignore the child's dillema.

The song sounds like a new thing and it isn't something I read about, but from the title and from the tone of the book I read I think it sounds like something designed to mock and humiliate children. I would definitely not sing an "Uh-Oh" song to my child anyways because I don't believe it is a loving and helpful thing to do.
sparklefairy's Avatar sparklefairy
03:03 PM Liked: 4994
#8 of 34
08-15-2009 | Posts: 1,915
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The way he did it on the video came across to me as mocking. Granted, he was speaking before a room of adults and not actually interacting with a child at the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post
Oh, gosh! I never took that to be mocking. I bought the book when DS was a few months old, and then realized that even though it says "birth to 6 years" it really isn't appropriate for babies that small. I took it out to read again now that DS is in full-bore toddler mode, complete with not listening and getting into stuff.

I'm not so much into the "song" but I was thinking I would try some things once he's a bit older. It seems like the majority here don't like it though, so what would you all recommend instead? To me, it seemed like a great approach (assuming it works, I haven't actually tried it yet) -- definitely more gentle than yelling, which is my usual MO! (And I don't like that, either and am trying to change it...)

sparklefairy's Avatar sparklefairy
03:05 PM Liked: 4994
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I didn't see a whole lot of "logic" either. When the obvious "logical" consequence would be to have a child help clean something up, the consequence suggested was dragging a child to his room by one arm (yes, that's exactly how he said it "with his little feet barely touching the floor") and locking him in there if he won't stay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnS6 View Post
Dh and I went to a whole class that was loosely based around Love and Logic. We didn't care for it. I think dh summed it up best: "Too much logic and not enough love."

I do understand some of the points that they are making: They're strong proponents of natural consequences and of letting kids make little mistakes so they can learn from them (rather than always rescuing them). I could see how with some teenagers, it might be an OK approach (without the mocking "uh-oh"). But I think there are a lot better ways to doing the same thing.

swd12422's Avatar swd12422
07:19 PM Liked: 199
#10 of 34
08-15-2009 | Posts: 2,111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklefairy View Post
I didn't see a whole lot of "logic" either. When the obvious "logical" consequence would be to have a child help clean something up, the consequence suggested was dragging a child to his room by one arm (yes, that's exactly how he said it "with his little feet barely touching the floor") and locking him in there if he won't stay.
Oooookay.... Either I don't have the same book, or I'm going to have to re-read it more thoroughly. I do NOT remember any dragging, hitting, or dog-training in the book I read. The consequence for not helping clean up his toys was to have the toys taken away. (Whatever you pick up, you get to keep.) I don't have a problem with that. A mess they made gets cleaned up, or they have to "pay" you to clean it up, with payment being either in the form of money if they get an allowance or a toy or other possession. (I don't think I'd keep a 3-year-old's toy for very long as "payment" but as I said, I'm not there yet, so maybe I wouldn't take the toy at all...)

At any rate, no, I'd have to say I wouldn't like L&L either, if it did in fact advocate hitting and dragging.....
Tjej's Avatar Tjej
08:23 PM Liked: 75
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08-15-2009 | Posts: 1,563
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Well, I've read L&L, and I think it's all in the delivery. If you are going to be trite and mocking, then it is a cold way to parent. If you can be truly empathetic and supportive while letting kids make their own mistakes, then I think it can be a very effective and loving way to parent.

Tjej
sparklefairy's Avatar sparklefairy
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#12 of 34
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The part I described was not in the book; it was in a video that was shown in the L&L class, of which I could not stomach more than one session.

I agree with the other poster that there are some good ideas in the book (I've skimmed the one with the orange cover -- I think that's it's earlier editions that mention hitting and dog training) AND that it's all about the delivery.

Such as your example with toys -- I no longer have a 3-year-old but that is something that I would be fine with for my 9- or 11-year-old, provided the consequence was a known factor (not the case with L&L -- they are all about springing surprise punishments). Really, I think that if picking up is an ongoing problem, then there are too many things present and it's up to the parent to come up with a system where the child can succeed. When things bring endless frustration, they aren't serving their purpose in our lives.

The people speaking on the video (Fay and Cline, I believe) and the instructors for the one class that I took did not have a loving attitude toward children.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swd12422 View Post
Oooookay.... Either I don't have the same book, or I'm going to have to re-read it more thoroughly. I do NOT remember any dragging, hitting, or dog-training in the book I read. The consequence for not helping clean up his toys was to have the toys taken away. (Whatever you pick up, you get to keep.) I don't have a problem with that. A mess they made gets cleaned up, or they have to "pay" you to clean it up, with payment being either in the form of money if they get an allowance or a toy or other possession. (I don't think I'd keep a 3-year-old's toy for very long as "payment" but as I said, I'm not there yet, so maybe I wouldn't take the toy at all...)

At any rate, no, I'd have to say I wouldn't like L&L either, if it did in fact advocate hitting and dragging.....

Polliwog's Avatar Polliwog
09:15 PM Liked: 1734
#13 of 34
08-15-2009 | Posts: 3,999
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I've got the Early Childhood book and it's way too cold. I haven't taken a look to see the exact example, but I know they tell a story of sending an 18-month-old to his room and holding the door shut.
ssh's Avatar ssh
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#14 of 34
08-15-2009 | Posts: 1,681
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Small children are people, so we should treat them as we do other people we have loving relationships with. If some discipline strategy would be bad for our relationship if I did it with my DH, for example taking away his stuff if I pick it up because he's been messy, I don't do it with my DD. I assume taking away my DD's stuff would harm our relationship too. I feel mutual respect and trust or more important issues than an always tidy living room. Putting a person in a room and just holding the door shut just sounds mean. Children learn how to treat people by modeling how we treat them. Do we want to teach them how to be mean?
aprildawn's Avatar aprildawn
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#15 of 34
08-16-2009 | Posts: 1,714
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A good friend of mine uses L&L. She integrated most of the book/seminars. I always felt like the "uh-oh" was somewhat mocking whenever I hear her do it. Also, I feel like letting kids mess up and experience the consequences can be fine in some situations, but, when they're really little, or flighty-brained (like my DD1), I feel like it sets them up for failure.

I will say, however, that for my friend L&L was a huge improvement from how she was parented. She's doing the best she can considering the model she grew up experiencing. Her parenting is maturing and becoming more gentle year after year. If L&L can give people like her tools to keep them from yelling, hitting, and manipulating their kids, then I think it's a positive step even if it's not the best parenting style out there.
ShadowMom's Avatar ShadowMom
01:38 PM Liked: 16
#16 of 34
08-20-2009 | Posts: 4,264
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I would not let the authors of that book discipline my cat, much less my child.
swd12422's Avatar swd12422
05:38 PM Liked: 199
#17 of 34
08-20-2009 | Posts: 2,111
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I've only skimmed a few pages since deciding to reread it (who has time to read about child discipline with a 20-month-old tearing up the place?), but I'm still not seeing anything that suggests setting them up to make a mistake/fail so you can teach them consequences. It's more about offering choices when something's not negotiable, like putting on a coat in winter. They don't suggest letting your kid freeze their patooty off so they'll never refuse their coat again. They suggest allowing the child to choose whether to wear or carry the coat, so they don't have to put it on til they decide they're too cold without it. I don't see what's wrong with that. And maybe I'm just hot-headed and slow, but I'd be one of those parents fighting with my kid to put his coat on instead of considering this, because that's how I was raised.

My impression of the "uh-oh" song is to get a little one's attention, not to use on a 7-year-old, so you can start teaching them safety things like not climbing on stairs or hurting the dog. Maybe others are interpreting that as too harsh for a toddler, and I think it would be inappropriate to use all the time just for controlling all behaviors, but for dangerous situations I don't see what the problem is. It's much more gentle than screaming from across the room "NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!" and scaring the life out of everyone. Am I missing something?
swd12422's Avatar swd12422
05:43 PM Liked: 199
#18 of 34
08-21-2009 | Posts: 2,111
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Okay, skimmed some more this morning and NOW I see what everyone objects to! Sorry it took me so long to figure it out. I guess I didn't read it with a clear head the first time around. (DS was an infant, so I just figured it didn't matter just yet. Now that he's a toddler, I can't see doing some of that stuff to him.)
justthinkn's Avatar justthinkn
01:07 PM Liked: 12
#19 of 34
11-01-2009 | Posts: 1,279
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I prefer Kids are Worth It, by Coloroso - discusses the difference between logical and natural consequences. For instance, the L&L books (version for young kids at least) advocate requiring a child to somehow refill your energy when they've been doing something that drains it. So they vacuum, sweep, etc... That feels contrived & controlling to me if it's required by the adult (as well as not really possible for a younger child). But the reality is, when DD does certain things, my energy is drained, and I have to take responsibility to recover so that I don't turn in to a raving shrew So a natural consequence may be that I need to take a timeout for a few minutes rather than playing with her or giving her attention, taking her somewhere fun, etc.... The other thing great about Coloroso's book is that the focus is on treating each other compassionately, respecting the dignity of the child, and on second chances, on fixing mistakes.
DevaMajka's Avatar DevaMajka
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11-02-2009 | Posts: 10,344
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I have removed a post that was a UAV, and also some posts that were in response to it.

Please PM me if you have any questions.

The GD forum guidelines state:
Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.


Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara
Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
sparklefairy's Avatar sparklefairy
07:06 PM Liked: 4994
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11-02-2009 | Posts: 1,915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polliwog View Post
I've got the Early Childhood book and it's way too cold. I haven't taken a look to see the exact example, but I know they tell a story of sending an 18-month-old to his room and holding the door shut.
The way they told it on the video was dragging the child by one arm so that "his little feet barely touch the ground" while singing the song.

Sorry I repeated myself -- this class was clearly very upsetting to me!

To add something new -- I do do some version of "drained my energy" sometimes because it's God's honest truth. I do my best to be honest and not manipulative -- it's generally not the first resort, but there certainly are times when I say things like, "You are exhausting me with your backtalk. Is this how you want to spend my energy, or would you rather I have some left to drive you to X's house this afternoon?"
Labbemama's Avatar Labbemama
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11-02-2009 | Posts: 1,319
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I am signed up to take a class in L&L starting tomorrow.

I think I would rather do Nurtured Heart but I have never met anyone who teaches it.
Polliwog's Avatar Polliwog
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#23 of 34
11-02-2009 | Posts: 3,999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Labbemama View Post
I am signed up to take a class in L&L starting tomorrow.
Uh-oh......
_betsy_'s Avatar _betsy_
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#24 of 34
11-02-2009 | Posts: 4,615
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I am so glad to find other MDC mamas who didn't care for this book/method. I was just re-reading it (Never made it all the way through the first time, but DD1 was tiny when I started it) and I just don't care for it. The Uh-Oh song sounds like I'd be sing-songing "You screwed uuu-uuupp, You screwed uuu-uuup!" I wasn't loving all the faith-based justification in the book, but I snapped it closed and and declared to an empty room that I was so done reading this book when I read one of the outtakes telling me the best way to deal with a small child in the midst of a (wholy preventable) tantrum was to put them in their room, in the crib, in the dark and tell them I'd love them again when they were in a better mood. WHAT???
tiffani's Avatar tiffani
01:23 AM Liked: 44
#25 of 34
11-03-2009 | Posts: 3,772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _betsy_ View Post
the best way to deal with a small child in the midst of a (wholy preventable) tantrum was to put them in their room, in the crib, in the dark and tell them I'd love them again when they were in a better mood. WHAT???
does it really say that??? that's criminal... that's an "I'm at the end of my rope and I will strangle this child if they continue screaming at me" strategy (without the conditional love crap added), not a "the best way to deal with a tantrum" strategy. ick.
Labbemama's Avatar Labbemama
03:18 PM Liked: 5
#26 of 34
11-06-2009 | Posts: 1,319
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I am in week one of love and logic and I am not sure what I think of it yet.
The Uh-oh song--well my kids think it's a joke, but my youngest and I did have a good conversation about a self-time out space she could create. So our uh-oh song goes 'Uh-oh-someone's going to the wardrobe box." DD's idea that she would decorate her own time out space. Whatever she needs to do to create a space to regroup.

I'm probably going to jail if anyone hears them sing that.

My kids don't even have their own rooms at this point and letting them scream it out in the rooms is going to get us evicted so that was not a helpful suggestion. I guess what I need is a sound-proof room for parenting kids with so many special needs/mood disorders and PTSD.

I think my kids are too old for this technique. They are willing to set a timer and come out after they are calm. My other problems is they will put the dresser in front of the door and come out so I need to make sure they are safe but am blocked out. (Mine are teens.)

I think this might work better if you started off with it from the get-go.

"Come out when you are sweet." rubs be the wrong way too. As if you are not sweet you are not acceptable. I don't know too much Carl Rogers and unconditional positive regard in my training I guess. Sweet or not I am still your mom and still willing to talk to you. I dunno. Six weeks to go.

My whole purpose for taking the class is to get a certificate that says I took it and maybe something useful I'll take what works and use it and leave the rest and atleast be familiar with it when parents say they are using L&L.

I am emphasizing repsonsibility, respectfulness, and fun to be around.

But with my own sorta spin on it. For instance saying, "that was very respectful saying thank you when I bought you gum."

Or gee this tantrum is no fun for either of us. I was really looking foward to going to your choir concert and hearing you sing tonite but if you'd rather sit here, ok.
Polliwog's Avatar Polliwog
10:35 AM Liked: 1734
#27 of 34
11-09-2009 | Posts: 3,999
Joined: Oct 2006
If Love and Logic is really for you, you might want to get the book for parenting teenagers. I suspect the strategies are quite different.
Labbemama's Avatar Labbemama
07:49 PM Liked: 5
#28 of 34
11-09-2009 | Posts: 1,319
Joined: May 2008
Unfortunately, I'm taking the class at a DV shelter and they are out of the books but we get these copied handouts which I think are the same thing. Maybe I'm missing something that would explain a lot. I am hoping some come in. Most of the techniques though do not quite seem to fit for us. Emphasising core values I think is valuable and that is where the respectful, responsible, fun to be around part comes in and would be effective.

I would not use the uh-oh song on anybody past age 2, I think. I find it just irritating and I'm not sure so much why, maybe because it comes off as sing-songy at a serious situation where maybe I would just use a firm tone of voice that seems sarcastic to me.

I still have the 5 languages of love (for children and teens) to read and that was recommended by another mom in my DV group who I really seem to connect well with.

Spanking them is of course not an option, and neither is letting them hit, kick, bite, scream, and threaten each other's lives. It really is a mess.

The book that is helping me is "When Dad Hurts Mom" by Lundy Bancroft. It really shows where I lost my parental authority. And I'm working my behind off trying to get it back.

There's got to be something for kids with PTSD.
tiffani's Avatar tiffani
01:24 AM Liked: 44
#29 of 34
11-10-2009 | Posts: 3,772
Joined: May 2002
Labbemama, I just want to send you my condolences, and my congratulations on the steps you're currently taking (or maybe I'm inferring incorrect information from your post, but I gather you and your children are in the DV shelter?)... I used to volunteer at a DV shelter/hotline, and I know how hard it is to make the strides that you're making, so kudos to you, and ...
mom22girls's Avatar mom22girls
04:51 PM Liked: 11
#30 of 34
11-10-2009 | Posts: 893
Joined: May 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparklefairy View Post
I do my best to be honest and not manipulative -- it's generally not the first resort, but there certainly are times when I say things like, "You are exhausting me with your backtalk. Is this how you want to spend my energy, or would you rather I have some left to drive you to X's house this afternoon?"

I LOVE this!!!

I think the thing with any consequences-based discipline method is that the child must have the capacity to predict the consequence and also have a solid amount of impulse control.

-H

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