Help! Severe Aggressive/Defiant Behavior! - Page 13 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#361 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 12:29 AM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi Barbie!!!

I totally get what you are saying about me being worried about undermining the therapist's authority, and I even had that thought when I was writing the post. I guess what I was thinking is that I try not to contradict another adult and authority figure (grandparents, therapist, teacher) in front of my son because I don't want my son to think that the other person is the "bad guy" and doesn't need to be listened to, just as they say you shouldn't contradict the other parent during a discipline situation.

However, I DO feel like I should have said, "I think I need to take my son to the bathroom and we will come back and finish the time out." It just all happened so fast that as I was thinking it through and thinking, "I need to take him; I should say something now," he peed his pants.

You said very strongly that I shouldn't take my son back to the therapist. This is how I initially felt, but I was torn because she's been a very good support system for me until now, and we've seen her for about 2 years.

If you can, read my posting about the phone conversation I had with my son's therapist, and let me know if you still feel the same way. She has admitted that she didn't handle it as well as she could have and wishes she had let him go to the bathroom. She has promised to always let him go to the bathroom in the future. She wants to apologize to my son.

I guess I feel like maybe I should give it at least one more try to at least allow my son to hear her apology and see if we can work through this. I do want to talk to her further about whether we can modify her approach, as several people have mentioned (and I agree) that it seems odd to start a session in the same bad place that we were in at the end of a previous session after an entire week has passed. She has also agreed that we won't start in a time out next time, and this is something I wouldn't have allowed. I wouldn't have brought him back an entire week later to be put into time out.

I have not had my son's lead levels tested. I don't think we've been in a place where he is really exposed to lead, as we don't live in an older home and never have. Do you think that would still be relevant?

You've always been such a good support person for me on MDC, and thank you for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbie64g View Post
I may not be one to talk here, something jumped out at me from your post.

You said you didnt want to undermine the THEREPISTS authority. But to your son, YOU are the authority. You trump everyone in his eyes. So it might have been really confusing for him to be asking for your help, while you are right there, and he wasn't getting it. (Im trying to be as gentle as I can here because I cant immagine the trauma you yourself are weeding through right now)

IMO (which doesnt mean squat) you need to rebuild trust with your son again by NEVER taking him to tha ttherepist again. She humilated him. She tramatized him. I honestly think you should tell him that what she did to him was WRONG, and that your sorry she did that to you. And that she will NEVER be able to do that to her again.

Then I would write the therepist telling her the fit is no longer working with her, and you will no longer be requiring her services. And find another therepist.

I forget, did you ever say whether or not you had your sons lead levels tested?

OMG, I feel so bad mama. I cant immagine enduring any of that. Im so sorry. I dont know what else to say. It just doesnt seem fair that a good, hardworking mother and sweet little boy should have to endure such trauma their entire lives. Sending you a million virtual hugs.
Bisou is offline  
#362 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 06:35 AM
 
quietmim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have read the entire thread and I just wanted to say something... I don't know how I would cope in your shoes! I think you are doing an amazing job.

Also, lead exposure can occur outside of the home, from old buildings, construction sites, unknown sources.... I have known children with elevated lead levels who lived in new, modern homes.

DD 5/09 and a new little one 4/11
quietmim is offline  
#363 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 06:47 AM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Right. If kids who are "paddled" act out, they are just "paddled" more. Is that what you would suggest?
I would never suggest that.

Quote:
You are being extremely judgmental, and I think there's a big difference between offering a perspective or opinion and making judgments about how I am parenting or not parenting. Without knowing me and seeing how I parent my child in person, you really can't make judgments about whether I am imposing consequences or not.
I am judging your reaction here and what you post here, not whether or not you are a good parent.

I do not think suggesting you look at your son as a survivor rather than as a victim is somehow callous and disregarding his past experiences.

Your son, THE WHOLE TIME, had the option of calming down, apologizing, and going to the bathroom.

He CHOSE not to.

You feel bad for him. Not the therapist that made a simple, human request that he stop threatening, and then peed on her?

No, I don't know how you parent on a daily basis.

I do know that what you describe here is a litany of abuse and victimization, rarely of him overcoming obstacles. You see him continually traumatized by obstacles.

I would argue that this is LESS respectful of him as a person than to treat him as a survivor and look at this from a perspective that he is going to have a lot more problems and obstacles, if he does not learn to respect others.

I'm not talking "minding" adults.

I'm talking about respecting other people.

He peed on your therapist because he refused to calm down and apologize, after trashing part of her room and going at her physically. And you feel bad for HIM?!?!

If my child did that, I would be horrified at my child, or at the very least, sad about HER CHOICE.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#364 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 08:01 AM
 
D_McG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,122
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think EdnaMarie is making some really spot on points. I have also seen a huge turnaround in my son when I started holding him accountable for his behavior than when I used to 'rescue' him every time he experienced strong emotions. Best of luck to you and him.

DS (6.06), DD (10.08), DD (05.11).

D_McG is offline  
#365 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 10:22 AM
 
Lady Lilya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 3,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou
She was shocked at his inability to calm down
I don't know why everyone expects that if a person isn't calming down that it is a choice, and that if you heap enough consequences upon it they will choose to make the other choice to calm down.

Looking at myself and my own DS, that is not the case. Saying "if you calm down you can have X" or "if you don't calm down Y will happen to you" is irrelevant, and often adds to the emotion by coming across as patronizing and arbitrary. Rather than addressing the issue, it creates a new battle that has to be fought in addition to the original one you are fighting with internally. And it is all the more frustrating when the person who is supposed to be on your side is the one adding more battles when you are already dealing with something.

Anyway, I don't see how anything the therapist did had the potential to teach him to be in control of his emotions. I see a lot of ways it was intended to teach him to submit to authority. And I see what some of the others are saying -- if you learn to to what you are told well, then life is easier and you have fewer conflicts to deal with. But is that the route to better mental health for him? Or is that just permanently resigning himself to forever being in the power of others who are stronger than him?

Rereading Edna's posts, I see that she is entirely coming from a place that assumes that it was all in his control. And based on that premise her posts make sense. But I can't believe that premise.

I know that a lot of my friends have toddlers whose tantrums are completely in their control. They can start and stop them at will, and use them manipulatively. But my 3yo is clearly not like that. His tantrums are when he is overwhelmed past the point of being able to cope rationally. He cannot stop them just because it would be in his best interest to do so. He is not choosing to tantrum. Rather he is in a place where he cannot find any course of action that he can choose that is within his ability to handle it emotionally.

If your DS was not able to stop his tantrum to get the offered rewards, I would think he is probably similar to my DS in this way. (And I know I am like that too, with crying, though DH always assumes I cry to manipulate him, not because my emotions are overwhelmed. But I know that it is not a tool I am choosing.)

And I would say that if he knew of a way to get a handle on his emotions before they got so out of hand, he would probably love to do that. I think that is what the focus should be on. Learning to the point of habit some techniques for stopping the process of getting worked up before it gets that bad, and then having some sort of systematic procedure to work himself back down when it does happen. Most of the people I know with unhealthy coping mechanisms (like alcoholism) turn to that mechanism because at the time they become emotionally desperate, they do not know what else to do. They need an active process that promises results, and something they can make routine so they can do it without thinking much. Something physical and sensory often works for people. (Think of Sherlock Holmes playing his violin when something is disturbing him.)

Leigh, mama to Rostislav homeborn Aug 9 2007, and Oksana homeborn Feb 24 2011.
Lady Lilya is offline  
#366 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 12:50 PM
 
OGirlieMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,031
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Lilya View Post
I don't know why everyone expects that if a person isn't calming down that it is a choice, and that if you heap enough consequences upon it they will choose to make the other choice to calm down.

Looking at myself and my own DS, that is not the case. Saying "if you calm down you can have X" or "if you don't calm down Y will happen to you" is irrelevant, and often adds to the emotion by coming across as patronizing and arbitrary. Rather than addressing the issue, it creates a new battle that has to be fought in addition to the original one you are fighting with internally. And it is all the more frustrating when the person who is supposed to be on your side is the one adding more battles when you are already dealing with something.

Anyway, I don't see how anything the therapist did had the potential to teach him to be in control of his emotions. I see a lot of ways it was intended to teach him to submit to authority. And I see what some of the others are saying -- if you learn to to what you are told well, then life is easier and you have fewer conflicts to deal with. But is that the route to better mental health for him? Or is that just permanently resigning himself to forever being in the power of others who are stronger than him?

Rereading Edna's posts, I see that she is entirely coming from a place that assumes that it was all in his control. And based on that premise her posts make sense. But I can't believe that premise.

I know that a lot of my friends have toddlers whose tantrums are completely in their control. They can start and stop them at will, and use them manipulatively. But my 3yo is clearly not like that. His tantrums are when he is overwhelmed past the point of being able to cope rationally. He cannot stop them just because it would be in his best interest to do so. He is not choosing to tantrum. Rather he is in a place where he cannot find any course of action that he can choose that is within his ability to handle it emotionally.

If your DS was not able to stop his tantrum to get the offered rewards, I would think he is probably similar to my DS in this way. (And I know I am like that too, with crying, though DH always assumes I cry to manipulate him, not because my emotions are overwhelmed. But I know that it is not a tool I am choosing.)

And I would say that if he knew of a way to get a handle on his emotions before they got so out of hand, he would probably love to do that. I think that is what the focus should be on. Learning to the point of habit some techniques for stopping the process of getting worked up before it gets that bad, and then having some sort of systematic procedure to work himself back down when it does happen. Most of the people I know with unhealthy coping mechanisms (like alcoholism) turn to that mechanism because at the time they become emotionally desperate, they do not know what else to do. They need an active process that promises results, and something they can make routine so they can do it without thinking much. Something physical and sensory often works for people. (Think of Sherlock Holmes playing his violin when something is disturbing him.)
I agree. I have a child who has intense, violent tantrums, and is unable to calm herself down even for a really fantastic reward. Considering that OP's child is already in therapy for similar issues, I think the assumption that he *can* calm himself and is choosing not to is deeply flawed. For many children, that would be true, but from everything OP has said, and everything I have observed in my own child, it does not appear to be in this case.

ETA: It really sounds like the therapist came at this from a faulty perspective too, and ended up just setting him up to fail. It also sounds like she acknowledged that and is able and willing to try a different approach in the future. Bisou, if your son is willing to go back, I think it could be a valuable lesson for all.

Betsy, mama to beautiful, strong MZ twins Lillian and Kate, born 11 weeks early on January 10, 2006.
OGirlieMama is offline  
#367 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=EdnaMarie;16022401]

Quote:
Your son, THE WHOLE TIME, had the option of calming down, apologizing, and going to the bathroom.

He CHOSE not to.
Like others have mentioned, I do not believe he had the option of calming down at that moment. He was threatened and afraid because he was being held down in a very uncomfortable way. It triggered his PTSD, which made him completely out of control with fear. You choose to disregard these points, to just ignore them, and instead insist that he was able to control himself.

In addition, he has sensory processing disorder and is extremely sensitive to touch. When other people touch him, it's very upsetting and he takes it as an attack. This can even be a simple touch on the shoulder. He does not know how to interpret touch and other sensory information, and as a result, sensory information is upsetting to him because he doesn't know what it means. This is what sensory processing disorder is.

Here is an explanation about this part of SPD (tactile defensiveness) from an SPD website. This is an accepted clinical diagnosis, and my son has been diagnosed with this disorder.

Children who have tactile defensiveness are sensitive to touch sensations and can be easily overwhelmed by, and fearful of, ordinary daily experiences and activities.

Sensory defensiveness can prevent a child from play and interactions critical to learning and social interactions.

Often, children with tactile defensiveness (hypersensitivity to touch/tactile input) will avoid touching, become fearful of, or bothered by the following:

#textured materials/items
# "messy" things
# vibrating toys, etc.
# a hug
# a kiss
# certain clothing textures
# rough or bumpy bed sheets
# seams on socks
# tags on shirts
# light touch
# hands or face being dirty
# shoes and/or sandals
# wind blowing on bare skin
#bare feet touching grass or sand


Children may become fearful, avoid activities, withdraw, or act out as their body responds with a "fight-or-flight" response.

Why does this happen? It's all about the way in which one's nervous system interprets touch sensations and stimulation. I suspect you too would react with a "fight back" or "flee" response if any of the above listed items to YOU felt like sandpaper rubbing against your skin or 10 spiders crawling up your arm that you can't get off.

It is not their fault! It is absolutely 100% about the WAY in which their nervous system interprets a tactile stimulus! Please don't blame them or punish them... be proactive and help them get the treatment and accommodations they need!

(Note: It is not uncommon for a child with tactile defensiveness to become aggressive towards other children if they are touched or bumped into at school. Be aware of this type of reaction and be proactive by putting them in the front or end of a line, for example).



Is this your view of all mental health issues: that the person can just snap out of it and get themselves under control?

Also, you will note that kids with SPD, as explained above, can have an out of control "fight or flight" response just from a light touch or a hug, and this was someone tightly squeezing him with his arms wrapped around him. This was very intense touch, so of course it would make him react in an even more out of control way, especially when he had to go to the bathroom, and then was extremely distressed and panicked when he realized he would not be allowed to go. This made him even more unable to calm down.


Quote:
You feel bad for him. Not the therapist that made a simple, human request that he stop threatening, and then peed on her?
My son peed on her because he was unable to calm down and was not allowed to go to the bathroom. He had no other choice. And, you also keep taking the side of the therapist who HERSELF has admitted this was a big mistake, that he could not control his emotions or need to go to the bathroom, and says she should have let him go to the bathroom. You continue to insist that he could have simply calmed down and then could have gone to the bathroom.

Quote:
No, I don't know how you parent on a daily basis.

I do know that what you describe here is a litany of abuse and victimization, rarely of him overcoming obstacles. You see him continually traumatized by obstacles.
Again, you choose to ignore what I have said in my post and choose to see my son as a manipulator, really as a "bad" kid who "chooses" not to act appropriately, one who is in complete control of his emotions despite what has happened to him. In my post, I mentioned MANY good things my son has done and how he has improved greatly. You chose to ignore those comments that specifically showed how he was overcoming obstacles.

Quote:
I would argue that this is LESS respectful of him as a person than to treat him as a survivor and look at this from a perspective that he is going to have a lot more problems and obstacles, if he does not learn to respect others.

I'm not talking "minding" adults.

I'm talking about respecting other people.

He peed on your therapist because he refused to calm down and apologize, after trashing part of her room and going at her physically. And you feel bad for HIM?!?!

If my child did that, I would be horrified at my child, or at the very least, sad about HER CHOICE.
Again, I have said that I do expect him to act appropriately and I do not think it's ok for him to hurt people or damage property. It just blows my mind that you think it's ok to refuse to allow a child to use the bathroom.

This will probably be my last post responding to your postings. I have found this conversation with you contrary to the reason I post here: to get support and helpful ideas. Instead, your postings seem to attack me and my son and make judgments about why we make the decisions we do. You refuse to acknowledge that his traumatic experiences or his sensory processing disorder have any bearing on his reactions, and that instead he is manipulative and in control of his emotions, when he is not.

I feel like I am wasting time and valuable emotional energy responding to your posts, which feel attacking and upsetting, and this exchange feels like nothing but negativity to me.
Bisou is offline  
#368 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Lilya View Post

I don't know why everyone expects that if a person isn't calming down that it is a choice, and that if you heap enough consequences upon it they will choose to make the other choice to calm down.
THANK YOU.

Quote:
Looking at myself and my own DS, that is not the case. Saying "if you calm down you can have X" or "if you don't calm down Y will happen to you" is irrelevant, and often adds to the emotion by coming across as patronizing and arbitrary. Rather than addressing the issue, it creates a new battle that has to be fought in addition to the original one you are fighting with internally. And it is all the more frustrating when the person who is supposed to be on your side is the one adding more battles when you are already dealing with something.
Yes. When my son was already disregulated, then had to go to the bathroom and realized he was not going to be allowed to go, he was completely out of his mind at that point. He has a real issue with people not believing him, and if he is telling the truth ("I have to go to the bathroom!") and is not listened to, it upsets him to no end. He feels like it's unfair.

Yes, he had been trying to hit us and needed to be prevented from doing so. However, I would have said something like, "Ok, I am going to take you to the bathroom, but you cannot hit me." I can bet you, based on past experience, that he would NOT try to hit me while taking him to the bathroom because he would feel listened to and his need would be addressed. Allowing him to go to the bathroom may have very well allowed him to calm down.

Quote:
I know that a lot of my friends have toddlers whose tantrums are completely in their control. They can start and stop them at will, and use them manipulatively. But my 3yo is clearly not like that. His tantrums are when he is overwhelmed past the point of being able to cope rationally. He cannot stop them just because it would be in his best interest to do so. He is not choosing to tantrum. Rather he is in a place where he cannot find any course of action that he can choose that is within his ability to handle it emotionally.
This is the case with my son as well, though we are working on improving his ability to cope and to calm himself. I have really been working with him to calm himself BEFORE he hits or tries to damage things, and I have had great improvements with that.

Quote:
If your DS was not able to stop his tantrum to get the offered rewards, I would think he is probably similar to my DS in this way.
Yes.

Quote:
And I would say that if he knew of a way to get a handle on his emotions before they got so out of hand, he would probably love to do that. I think that is what the focus should be on. Learning to the point of habit some techniques for stopping the process of getting worked up before it gets that bad, and then having some sort of systematic procedure to work himself back down when it does happen. Most of the people I know with unhealthy coping mechanisms (like alcoholism) turn to that mechanism because at the time they become emotionally desperate, they do not know what else to do. They need an active process that promises results, and something they can make routine so they can do it without thinking much. Something physical and sensory often works for people. (Think of Sherlock Holmes playing his violin when something is disturbing him.)
[/QUOTE]

With my son, lately he has been able to go into his room and have a time out there and calm himself down. He gets out books or plays with toys and calms himself. I have seen improvements in his ability to do so. Also I have been able to see when he's getting out of sorts and use language to calm him down, like "I see you're getting really upset. Can you please try to calm down? What is upsetting you?" If I can catch him before he blows, he is often able to stop the meltdown or talk about it. Once he has blown, it's extremely hard for him to gain control of his emotions and talking about it is impossible.

Thanks for your post, Lady Lilya.
Bisou is offline  
#369 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGirlieMama View Post
I agree. I have a child who has intense, violent tantrums, and is unable to calm herself down even for a really fantastic reward. Considering that OP's child is already in therapy for similar issues, I think the assumption that he *can* calm himself and is choosing not to is deeply flawed. For many children, that would be true, but from everything OP has said, and everything I have observed in my own child, it does not appear to be in this case.
Yep, I completely agree. We are working towards him being able to control himself and trying to teach him to do so, but right now due to his issues with PTSD and SPD, he is not able to at times. Lots of times he controls himself magnificently, but sometimes he can't and doesn't.


Quote:
ETA: It really sounds like the therapist came at this from a faulty perspective too, and ended up just setting him up to fail. It also sounds like she acknowledged that and is able and willing to try a different approach in the future. Bisou, if your son is willing to go back, I think it could be a valuable lesson for all.
Yes, I am hoping to take him back and try to work through this and just see how it goes. Thanks for your thoughts!
Bisou is offline  
#370 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 03:28 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
I don't see why you are attacking me so much for this.
I don't think suggesting that you look at it from a different perspective is an attack.

I'm suggesting you look at how you are framing this whole problem, casting your son as a victim and not lookin at his role in what is happening to him.

And he did have a choice. You are suggesting he was calm enough for her to let go safely, and him to go to the bathroom? I'm not sure what kind of tantrums he has, but I do think that if you both think you would have been safe letting him go, and that he would go to the bathroom himself, then he was at least calm enough to make a choice such as, "I'm going to give her what she wants, take a deep breath, so I won't pee my pants."

Sorry, you can't have him be totally out of control and have her letting go, when he's physically threatening her.

And if you say he was under control, that he would have gone to the bathroom, that he was calming down, then hold him to account. He wanted the game to stop while he took a time out, so that he could safely go back and continue having his way.

Nature interfered.

And IIRC--was not the abuse of holding him down etc. occurring about three-four years ago? As far as I remember, there was physical abuse when he was about two, a break in, and those were the two major things, is that right?

It is very sad and I am very, very sorry for all he has suffered. I know that I truly cannot imagine what his life is like.

I do know that it sounds, from what you are posting, that he is stronger and more resiliant than you are giving him credit for in this particular instance.

FWIW, if I'd been the therapist, there probably would not have been toys at the next visit. All the toys you don't clean up go away. Is that a possibility, if he can't deal with a clean-up a week later?

Quote:
it was said after he made repeated requests and in a voice of complete desperation, like "PLEASE LET ME GO TO THE BATHROOM OR I AM GOING TO HAVE AN ACCIDENT!!!!"
But no, I refuse to apologize and I refuse to calm down!

In other words--I demand you respect my bodily integrity and treat me as a person, but no, I will not do the same for you.

Quote:
I agree. I have a child who has intense, violent tantrums, and is unable to calm herself down even for a really fantastic reward. Considering that OP's child is already in therapy for similar issues, I think the assumption that he *can* calm himself and is choosing not to is deeply flawed.
There is no way I would let a child that was six, and uncontrollable in a fit of rage, have at me, his mom, and my room.

Even if he had to pee. I'd much rather get peed on than get a black eye, frankly.

And if that is the kind of lack of control we're talking about, which I fully understand exists, then that was a good choice, in my opinion.

I suspect, based on the whole story, that he was already partly calmed down, and therefore capable of making a rational choice, "Yes, I will calm down, please let me go pee, I'm sorry about the toys."

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#371 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 03:30 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
ou choose to disregard these points, to just ignore them, and instead insist that he was able to control himself.
If he could not control himself, there was no way the therapist could safely let him go pee.

Sorry. You can't have it both ways--"Oh, if she'd have let go, he'd have gone pee, come back, and dealt," AND "he was so out of control, he couldn't calm down or apologize".

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#372 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
And IIRC--was not the abuse of holding him down etc. occurring about three-four years ago? As far as I remember, there was physical abuse when he was about two, a break in, and those were the two major things, is that right?
If you read one of the last postings, there was the major abuse when he was three, then the break in and the force feeding abuse at daycare when he was around 4. He is only 5 now. So this is all pretty recent, most of it happening within a year.

In any case, I am not sure when the abuse happened is relevant. Physical and sexual abuse that people face still affects them as adults, years and years later.
Bisou is offline  
#373 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 04:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
If he could not control himself, there was no way the therapist could safely let him go pee.

Sorry. You can't have it both ways--"Oh, if she'd have let go, he'd have gone pee, come back, and dealt," AND "he was so out of control, he couldn't calm down or apologize".
This is exactly what I am talking about with your posts. Rather than being helpful, you are more concerned with being right and "winning" the debate you seem insistent on having: that my son was in control, and I am wrong, and my reactions to my son's behavior are wrong and enabling his behavior.

While I feel the need to refute your points and stand up for my son and explain the situation, I don't want to continue this "debate."

Ok, you win. You are right. My son was COMPLETELY in control of himself and deserved to pee his pants. That will teach him a lesson. You can now pat yourself on the back and declare yourself the winner.

For myself, I prefer to treat my child with more kindness, love, understanding, and compassion than that.

This is not the kind, supportive discussion I am accustomed to having on MDC, and it's very disappointing.
Bisou is offline  
#374 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 04:59 PM
 
Xerxella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,984
Mentioned: 118 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
I think it's pretty clear that most people here feel that he does not have the ability to calm down when his SPD is triggered.

The same way that if one of us was crying uncontrollably from a serious trauma, we couldn't just stop crying on a dime even if someone offered us a million dollars.

From all your posts (and I've read them all over the year) it seems that he responds better to a time away than a restraint hold. So, like you believe, the trip to the bathroom may have just been enough to help him pull himself together.

Have you worked on some breathing techniques to help him calm down? Have him look at you and you both breathe slowly and say In through the nose out through the mouth. It's simplistic, but can be very effective for everyone.

Married to one of the last good guys left Jim
Mom to AJ 4/07 and Genevieve 5/09

And then: I'm really, really tired of making angels.

But wait, could it really be true?


The whole story at: www.xerxella.blogspot.com
Xerxella is online now  
#375 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 05:06 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,148
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
First, I don't appreciate the sarcasm, because I have repeatedly expressed my sympathy here. I was trying to point something out here that you obviously aren't ready to hear, but that doesn't mean I was trying to "win"--I was trying to get my point across, but you repeatedly came back to the same script.

You seem really, really disturbed and upset at the idea that your son could be even partly responsible for such dire consequences. I am sorry for putting that out there because it's obviously too much to consider at this point.

I am really sorry for all you are going through, but I don't think it's unsupportive to suggest an alternative interpretation of the situation.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#376 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdnaMarie View Post
First, I don't appreciate the sarcasm, because I have repeatedly expressed my sympathy here. I was trying to point something out here that you obviously aren't ready to hear, but that doesn't mean I was trying to "win"--I was trying to get my point across, but you repeatedly came back to the same script.

You seem really, really disturbed and upset at the idea that your son could be even partly responsible for such dire consequences. I am sorry for putting that out there because it's obviously too much to consider at this point.

I am really sorry for all you are going through, but I don't think it's unsupportive to suggest an alternative interpretation of the situation.
Suggesting an "alternative interpretation" is what you did in your first post, which was fine, but then you argued again and again that your interpretation was right and mine was wrong. If you were just offering an "alternative interpretation," you can do that. I appreciated the alternative viewpoint in your first post. But continually hammering it home that "this was all within his control" is where this becomes a debate that you are unwilling to let go. You don't know me or my son, and while I think it's reasonable to suggest that perhaps he was able to control himself, to continue to argue with me that he WAS able to control himself when based on my interactions with him and knowing my child I know he is NOT, that is just not at all reasonable or sympathetic. While I might make a suggestion or offer advice, I would NEVER argue with you about what your child is or isn't capable of. You know your child and based on your child's temperament, past experiences, and capabilities, you know what is or isn't reasonable for your child. The same holds true for me and my child.

You don't appreciate my sarcasm, and I also did not appreciate comments like "Sorry, you can't have it both ways" or that I described a "litany of abuse" that my child has suffered. The term "litany" has a negative connotation. For example, "I didn't want to hear his litany of complaints" refers to someone going on and on in an unnecessary and annoying fashion. You have continually minimized what has happened to my son, calling very serious child abuse a "scratch on his testicles" or as being similar to a rash. All of this is unnecessary, upsetting, and definitely not supportive or sympathetic. Perhaps you are not aware of how your comments are coming across.

Comments like these are harsh and unnecessary. There has been a consistent biting tone to some of your comments, which definitely does not read as "sympathy" to me.
Bisou is offline  
#377 of 494 Old 11-06-2010, 05:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=Xerxella;16023475]

Quote:
I think it's pretty clear that most people here feel that he does not have the ability to calm down when his SPD is triggered.
I agree.

Quote:
The same way that if one of us was crying uncontrollably from a serious trauma, we couldn't just stop crying on a dime even if someone offered us a million dollars.

From all your posts (and I've read them all over the year) it seems that he responds better to a time away than a restraint hold. So, like you believe, the trip to the bathroom may have just been enough to help him pull himself together.
That is correct. Restraint holds usually seem to REALLY escalate him. When I was using restraint holds consistently at the advice of my son's therapists, sometimes I would have him in restraint for hours and hours on end because he was just completely unable to calm down. It did not help him calm down. It did not teach him that there were consequences or change his behavior, even though I did it consistently EVERY time he was out of control. It really made things worse. It was only when I decided to try another approach that he showed any signs of improvement.

I think for my son, the idea that he was not going to be allowed to go to the bathroom just sent him further over the edge. I think having a moment to get away from the restraint hold and go to the bathroom so he no longer had that panicked "I am going to wet my pants!" feeling would have helped calm the situation. I think the point to teach him to calm down, not that "when you do something wrong, you will be punished no matter what you do, what you say, or what you need, or no matter how scared or upset you are"? We want him to act reasonably, and I think that being overly harsh teaches him to be unbending in return. When he feels he is listened to and respected, and I DON'T mean getting out of consequences for bad behavior, but when he feels like his voice is heard, I have found him to be much more compliant, less aggressive, and more stable.

Quote:
Have you worked on some breathing techniques to help him calm down? Have him look at you and you both breathe slowly and say In through the nose out through the mouth. It's simplistic, but can be very effective for everyone.
I have tried that with him and modeled it or asked him to do it with me, but he usually just says "I can't! I can't!" Oddly, I have a really hard time doing breathing when I am upset or anxious myself, and it often makes me feel more upset and anxious. I just try to breathe as normally as possible (not holding my breath or breathing rapidly), and that seems to work.

I am definitely going to be working with his therapist about some alternate approaches, and if we can figure something out, it may be time for a different therapist.
Bisou is offline  
#378 of 494 Old 11-07-2010, 05:34 AM
 
Oubliette8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi Bisou,
I agree with you, it sounds like your son was really very scared. I have PTSD. Sometimes, in trying to set limits or help me, my therapist inadvertently does something that REALLY triggers me. When that happens, I cant calm down or act reasonably because of the terror. That doesn't mean he stops trying to set the limit, but it does mean that once I calm down some, and he backs off, that we talk about other ways to reach the same goal that aren't so absolutely terrifying. Usually we come up with something and the issue is resolved. It isn't that I dont want to get better, its that sometimes we need to take a different approach.

I'm also a bit embarrassed to admit, that I have a nervous bladder. When I'm anxious or nervous, I have to pee, alot, about every 5 minutes. And if I get extremely scared, sometimes I wet my pants, even as an adult. Sometimes I realize its going to happen shortly before it does, but a bathroom is just not accessible for whatever reason (for instance, when I'm 30 ft up a tree, or in the middle of a haunted house). I think its entirely plausible and likely that your son really couldn't control it.

I'm relieved to hear your therapist has thought about it and wants to apologize. I think thats good for him to learn, that adults are sometimes wrong, and that they apologize.

I'm worried that she wants to start with the toys all over again. I think after a session like that, its probably best just to back off and try a new solution. What if she started the session by asking your son what would help with the toy problem? He's old enough to have some ideas, it would give him some ownership over the solution, and maybe it would solve the toy issue. And it might end the power struggle they're stuck in. I would also brain storm other solutions with her. I would assume its not practical to say he cant play with whatever toy are on the floor when he leaves next session, because she probably has lots of toys, and other kids need to use them in between. Plus, a week is a long time for a consequence. I like the special reward idea. It could be immediate (like a sticker) or long term, like keeping a chart and if he does it 5 sessions in a row, he'll get to do something cool. Bringing his own toys also seems like a fair idea. Or maybe limit his play to a small number of toys, until he proves he can pick them up, and then he gets to play with a few more. I'm sure there are many other solutions. As an adult, if I failed to do something, like picking up toys, I'd still be pretty po'd if I came back the next week and that person had strewn toys on the floor and was now insisting I pick them. I think someone else said, its now how adults have respectful relationships with each other, and I don't think its a good example for a child either. She's there to help him, hopefully compassionately. Not as an all powerful you must obey dictator.

The other thing that I think needs to be addressed is what other methods can be used to handle your son's outbursts? Obviously being restrained re-enacts the original traumas. If he's flashing back or experiencing terror due to that, a therapeutic hold is NOT going to help him calm down, and will only escalate things. I would look for other ways, ask your son, ask your therapist, and see what everyone can come up with. Has he ever acted out in public before? What did you do then? If he does it in session again, would leaving help? I'm really not sure what to suggest, but I think the therapeutic hold is probably re-traumatizing. Would he stay in a time out? What works at home? It sounds like, you don't use holds at home, and you're only agreeing to try holding him yourself because you think it would be less traumatic than her doing it- sort of like, she thinks a hold is the way to go, and instead of saying, at home, xyz works, you're just going along with her authority? I might be wrong. I just think a better plan would be to come up with inteventions that de-escalate the situation and keep him safe without triggering his PTSD.

I guess, I'd talk to her about those two issues before bringing your son back, and make sure they are resolved and you are on the same page as far as how to handle them. I think, if you start the session the same way the last (very bad) session started, your son is likely to balk. She's saying she's sorry for her reaction, but not trying to help him with whatever set hm off in the first place.
Oubliette8 is offline  
#379 of 494 Old 11-07-2010, 12:03 PM
 
4evermom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,834
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post
Restraint holds usually seem to REALLY escalate him. When I was using restraint holds consistently at the advice of my son's therapists, sometimes I would have him in restraint for hours and hours on end because he was just completely unable to calm down. It did not help him calm down. It did not teach him that there were consequences or change his behavior, even though I did it consistently EVERY time he was out of control. It really made things worse. It was only when I decided to try another approach that he showed any signs of improvement.

I think for my son, the idea that he was not going to be allowed to go to the bathroom just sent him further over the edge. I think having a moment to get away from the restraint hold and go to the bathroom so he no longer had that panicked "I am going to wet my pants!" feeling would have helped calm the situation. I think the point to teach him to calm down, not that "when you do something wrong, you will be punished no matter what you do, what you say, or what you need, or no matter how scared or upset you are"? We want him to act reasonably, and I think that being overly harsh teaches him to be unbending in return. When he feels he is listened to and respected, and I DON'T mean getting out of consequences for bad behavior, but when he feels like his voice is heard, I have found him to be much more compliant, less aggressive, and more stable.
That would have been the case with my ds! He was a handful at 4, and progressively better ever since. He probably would have been diagnosed with ODD because he could not deal with anyone being at all authoritarian or manipulative, no matter how subtly. He was very sensitive to people trying to control him.

With the peeing thing, no way could my ds have been cooperative if he needed to urinate. And he would not have realized that he needed to until too late when it seems like a manipulative thing when it is just an awful realization from his perspective. What always worked for me when ds was in attack mode was to make a beeline away from him. He'd follow me, of course, but his attention would go from trying to hit me to trying to be with me. I wouldn't say anything beyond something like "I'm going to walk over here." All the talk had been talked and he knew whatever I could say, just couldn't calm himself down, and saying things he knew tended to make him more frustrated.

I'd have had no concerns about safety letting him go when he needed to urinate because I wouldn't have sat or stood still but walked briskly to the bathroom. Trying to restrain or put a child like this in time out just feeds their anger and makes the relationship confrontational. Treating them respectfully, taking them seriously when they say something like they have to use the bathroom, builds trust. It makes them feel safe and eventually they don't get as much of a fight or flight reaction during common setbacks that don't phase other kids.

Mom to unschooling 4everboy since 8/01
4evermom is offline  
#380 of 494 Old 11-07-2010, 12:23 PM
 
kalimay's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 274
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am so sorry for all that you and your little boy have been through. I feel fairly certain I would have cracked long ago.
I really liked Oubliette8's post and I would think coming up with a way for him to calm down when he cannot go to his room would be extremely important and something that would be the focus of the next session.
Also, and I feel uncomfortable saying this because you said you feel like EdnaMarie is attacking you and I don't want you to think that I am too, but I can see the perspective she is talking about. I am not talking about the past abuse that your son endured but this incidence with the therapist. It sounds like you are calling this another situation where your son was abused and he was the victim. I guess that I think for your sons sake it would be better for him to know that he was hurting his therapist and her office and she needed to keep herself safe and that is why she was holding him. It was terrifying for him and you all need to come up with a way to keep that from happening again but she was not abusing him. You keep coming back to the fact that even serial killers in prison can go to the bathroom when they need too and I don't think that is a healthy or reasonable comparison to me making.
Lastly, I don't know how you manage this without support and I understand needing to talk to someone after the session but I think calling your mother was a mistake. She blamed you and you took that on. Does she even want your son to be in therapy? I guess I feel from the rest of your dealings with her is that she is not someone I would trust to be at all helpful if I was emotionally fragile.
And again I am so sorry for what you all have been through. I am curious if you feel all of his aggressive behavior is due to the abuse or if you think there are underlying causes and he will eventually receive a diagnosis. I have a child in my life who has aspergers and his behavior when he is raging sounds very much like your son's. When he was a toddler there were some subtle signs that he had some issues. I am wondering if you noticed anything before the first abuse incident? His behavior with intervention and age has gotten much better.
I hope things continue to improve for you and your son.
kalimay is offline  
#381 of 494 Old 11-07-2010, 01:32 PM
 
babydanielsmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: a small town in NC
Posts: 395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Honestly, after reading through almost the entire thread I think that Ednamarie is bringing up some good points. I think if you approach her posts as an outsider looking in on your life and (NOT as your LO's mama) you may see the posts with a different point of view. I think the posts that make us feel the most defensive are sometimes the ones (when we've calmed down and can re exam them) that CAN have things we needed to hear. I don't have to agree with everything she posted but I think she was spot on with a lot of things. I think you love your son with all of your heart and you're trying to find the best way to parent him

Jess  SAHM to Daniel  (09/07) and Samuel  (06/10)and Katie Lee (11/11) we're with #4 edd 4/15 Wifey to my "geek" : David  for 14 yrs. ( 4/09 @ 19 weeks).
babydanielsmom is offline  
#382 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 12:59 PM
 
~Charlie's~Angel~'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,505
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisou View Post
Hi Barbie!!!

I totally get what you are saying about me being worried about undermining the therapist's authority, and I even had that thought when I was writing the post. I guess what I was thinking is that I try not to contradict another adult and authority figure (grandparents, therapist, teacher) in front of my son because I don't want my son to think that the other person is the "bad guy" and doesn't need to be listened to, just as they say you shouldn't contradict the other parent during a discipline situation.

However, I DO feel like I should have said, "I think I need to take my son to the bathroom and we will come back and finish the time out." It just all happened so fast that as I was thinking it through and thinking, "I need to take him; I should say something now," he peed his pants.

You said very strongly that I shouldn't take my son back to the therapist. This is how I initially felt, but I was torn because she's been a very good support system for me until now, and we've seen her for about 2 years.

If you can, read my posting about the phone conversation I had with my son's therapist, and let me know if you still feel the same way. She has admitted that she didn't handle it as well as she could have and wishes she had let him go to the bathroom. She has promised to always let him go to the bathroom in the future. She wants to apologize to my son.

I guess I feel like maybe I should give it at least one more try to at least allow my son to hear her apology and see if we can work through this. I do want to talk to her further about whether we can modify her approach, as several people have mentioned (and I agree) that it seems odd to start a session in the same bad place that we were in at the end of a previous session after an entire week has passed. She has also agreed that we won't start in a time out next time, and this is something I wouldn't have allowed. I wouldn't have brought him back an entire week later to be put into time out.

I have not had my son's lead levels tested. I don't think we've been in a place where he is really exposed to lead, as we don't live in an older home and never have. Do you think that would still be relevant?

You've always been such a good support person for me on MDC, and thank you for that.

So many hugs mama. Lots of stuff has happened here since the last time I logged on. Im sorry your feeling attacked. Knowing you, its probably adding to your stress levels, becuase you probably take even the smallest amount from every post made to this thread.

I actually would still consider having his lead levels tested. Just as a means to rule that out as a possibility, you know? its easy enough to do. Im actually kind surprised that his Docs have never offered to have it done. I know I should have it done, but for whatever reason we keep forgetting every time the kids have a wbv. We live in a house that has been completly redone, and their daycare has been completly redone twice. But it could end up being in places you just never would have thought of. you know?

And yes, after reading the update about the phone convo you had with the therepist, I feel better. I actually think it is crucial for her to apologize to your son for withholding bathroom rights. VERY important. I also think coming up with a "time out" technique for when hes not at home is also a good idea. Have you ever tried the breathing before? I know its no compariason because my son is only 3 and has never been traumatized as your son has (he also does not have SPD), but its a technique we have used with him when hes mad or frustrated. It seems to work and grabs his attention enough so that he can stop focusing on whats making him so mad in the moment and calm down. LOL, works for ME too.

I am one of those silver lining people (like, even mushroom clouds have em) so I would be trying to focus on what we can take from this experience and LEARN from it. 1.) your therepist will probably never pull the whole bathroom part EVER again, with any child. But also, how can we take from this experience and better our situation. I dont want to fire off stuff, cuz im not there with you.

PS, How is your son? Have you all talked about what happened?
~Charlie's~Angel~ is offline  
#383 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 05:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oubliette8 View Post
Hi Bisou,
I agree with you, it sounds like your son was really very scared. I have PTSD. Sometimes, in trying to set limits or help me, my therapist inadvertently does something that REALLY triggers me. When that happens, I cant calm down or act reasonably because of the terror. That doesn't mean he stops trying to set the limit, but it does mean that once I calm down some, and he backs off, that we talk about other ways to reach the same goal that aren't so absolutely terrifying. Usually we come up with something and the issue is resolved. It isn't that I dont want to get better, its that sometimes we need to take a different approach.

I'm also a bit embarrassed to admit, that I have a nervous bladder. When I'm anxious or nervous, I have to pee, alot, about every 5 minutes. And if I get extremely scared, sometimes I wet my pants, even as an adult. Sometimes I realize its going to happen shortly before it does, but a bathroom is just not accessible for whatever reason (for instance, when I'm 30 ft up a tree, or in the middle of a haunted house). I think its entirely plausible and likely that your son really couldn't control it.

I'm relieved to hear your therapist has thought about it and wants to apologize. I think thats good for him to learn, that adults are sometimes wrong, and that they apologize.

I'm worried that she wants to start with the toys all over again. I think after a session like that, its probably best just to back off and try a new solution. What if she started the session by asking your son what would help with the toy problem? He's old enough to have some ideas, it would give him some ownership over the solution, and maybe it would solve the toy issue. And it might end the power struggle they're stuck in. I would also brain storm other solutions with her. I would assume its not practical to say he cant play with whatever toy are on the floor when he leaves next session, because she probably has lots of toys, and other kids need to use them in between. Plus, a week is a long time for a consequence. I like the special reward idea. It could be immediate (like a sticker) or long term, like keeping a chart and if he does it 5 sessions in a row, he'll get to do something cool. Bringing his own toys also seems like a fair idea. Or maybe limit his play to a small number of toys, until he proves he can pick them up, and then he gets to play with a few more. I'm sure there are many other solutions. As an adult, if I failed to do something, like picking up toys, I'd still be pretty po'd if I came back the next week and that person had strewn toys on the floor and was now insisting I pick them. I think someone else said, its now how adults have respectful relationships with each other, and I don't think its a good example for a child either. She's there to help him, hopefully compassionately. Not as an all powerful you must obey dictator.

The other thing that I think needs to be addressed is what other methods can be used to handle your son's outbursts? Obviously being restrained re-enacts the original traumas. If he's flashing back or experiencing terror due to that, a therapeutic hold is NOT going to help him calm down, and will only escalate things. I would look for other ways, ask your son, ask your therapist, and see what everyone can come up with. Has he ever acted out in public before? What did you do then? If he does it in session again, would leaving help? I'm really not sure what to suggest, but I think the therapeutic hold is probably re-traumatizing. Would he stay in a time out? What works at home? It sounds like, you don't use holds at home, and you're only agreeing to try holding him yourself because you think it would be less traumatic than her doing it- sort of like, she thinks a hold is the way to go, and instead of saying, at home, xyz works, you're just going along with her authority? I might be wrong. I just think a better plan would be to come up with inteventions that de-escalate the situation and keep him safe without triggering his PTSD.

I guess, I'd talk to her about those two issues before bringing your son back, and make sure they are resolved and you are on the same page as far as how to handle them. I think, if you start the session the same way the last (very bad) session started, your son is likely to balk. She's saying she's sorry for her reaction, but not trying to help him with whatever set hm off in the first place.
I think you have some really great suggestions on many levels. It's also interesting to hear your own experiences with the PTSD and your nervous bladder. If an adult can even have these problems, how can we expect a five-year-old to cope? Thanks for sharing that.

I also agree with your comments about how upsetting it would be to have the toys strewn all over for him to pick up. My son is a pretty logical thinker and has this strong sense of justice (about what's fair and what's not), and I know that he knows SHE put the toys all over the floor, so it doesn't seem fair to him that he has to pick up the toys she threw on the ground. I think I do need to work with his therapist to find some alternate consequences. He needs to have consequences, but they have to work and be logical to be effective, I think!

I will meet with her in the morning on Wednesday when my son is in school, then take him back in the afternoon. I have to admit I am worried about how things will go! But it will be good to have a chance to talk to her before I take him back.

Thanks for your ideas!!!
Bisou is offline  
#384 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=4evermom;16025278]

Quote:
That would have been the case with my ds! He was a handful at 4, and progressively better ever since. He probably would have been diagnosed with ODD because he could not deal with anyone being at all authoritarian or manipulative, no matter how subtly. He was very sensitive to people trying to control him.

With the peeing thing, no way could my ds have been cooperative if he needed to urinate. And he would not have realized that he needed to until too late when it seems like a manipulative thing when it is just an awful realization from his perspective.
Yes, I think that had my son not gotten out of control and if he hadn't been in a restraint hold, he would have been asking to go to the potty. He usually doesn't realize he has to go until he has to go NOW. I think the panic that it caused when he realized he had to go to the bathroom made him completely and totally out of control. He said, "I have to go to the bathroom!" and his therapist just said, "Nope." Then something like, "You can wait until the time out is over, and then you can go to the bathroom." So I think he thought that she wouldn't let him go, no matter what. Also, if I really had to go to the bathroom and someone told me no, just the idea that "Oh my God, I am probably not going to make it!" would make me freak out.

Quote:
What always worked for me when ds was in attack mode was to make a beeline away from him. He'd follow me, of course, but his attention would go from trying to hit me to trying to be with me. I wouldn't say anything beyond something like "I'm going to walk over here." All the talk had been talked and he knew whatever I could say, just couldn't calm himself down, and saying things he knew tended to make him more frustrated.

I'd have had no concerns about safety letting him go when he needed to urinate because I wouldn't have sat or stood still but walked briskly to the bathroom. Trying to restrain or put a child like this in time out just feeds their anger and makes the relationship confrontational. Treating them respectfully, taking them seriously when they say something like they have to use the bathroom, builds trust. It makes them feel safe and eventually they don't get as much of a fight or flight reaction during common setbacks that don't phase other kids.
I think with my son it would be the same, and in the past when he has been out of control and needed to go potty, he has always calmed down at least a little because he saw that I was listening to him and let him do what he needed to do.

I have thought about what I would have done if I tried to let him go to the bathroom and he was hitting, and I think I would have said, "If you want to go to the bathroom, you can NOT hit me. If you are going to try to hurt me, I can't take you to the bathroom." But honestly, based on past experience, I don't think he would have tried that. When my son feels listened to, he tends to calm down. He may have still been really angry and emotional, but I don't think he would have tried to hit.

Thanks for your post!
Bisou is offline  
#385 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 05:55 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
[QUOTE=kalimay;16025335]

Quote:
I am so sorry for all that you and your little boy have been through. I feel fairly certain I would have cracked long ago.
I really liked Oubliette8's post and I would think coming up with a way for him to calm down when he cannot go to his room would be extremely important and something that would be the focus of the next session.
Also, and I feel uncomfortable saying this because you said you feel like EdnaMarie is attacking you and I don't want you to think that I am too, but I can see the perspective she is talking about. I am not talking about the past abuse that your son endured but this incidence with the therapist. It sounds like you are calling this another situation where your son was abused and he was the victim.
I think he was treated unfairly and that it was the wrong thing to do given his past trauma, PTSD, and SPD. However, I don't think that it's ok for him to hit and that he needs to be prevented from hitting people. I just don't think an hour of being restrained, having him pee his pants, and not allowing him to get out of the restraint until he is completely calm, including not being allowed to cry (something I didn't mention before) is reasonable. I think it would be ok to restrain him until he would no longer hit, but she was restraining him until he agreed to pick up the toys and did not cry. If I was extremely upset and had peed my pants in public, I would not be able to stop crying. I didn't probably explain all of those aspects in my earlier post. But I do want to be clear that I don't think he should have been left to just hit people and break things. I just think it could have been handled MUCH differently.

Quote:
I guess that I think for your sons sake it would be better for him to know that he was hurting his therapist and her office and she needed to keep herself safe and that is why she was holding him. It was terrifying for him and you all need to come up with a way to keep that from happening again but she was not abusing him. You keep coming back to the fact that even serial killers in prison can go to the bathroom when they need too and I don't think that is a healthy or reasonable comparison to me making.
I think I am just making a comparison to what is considered a basic human right. To me, depriving someone of the right to go to the bathroom is the along the lines with withholding sleep, food, and water.

Quote:
Lastly, I don't know how you manage this without support and I understand needing to talk to someone after the session but I think calling your mother was a mistake. She blamed you and you took that on. Does she even want your son to be in therapy? I guess I feel from the rest of your dealings with her is that she is not someone I would trust to be at all helpful if I was emotionally fragile.
You are right. Almost every time I call my mom, I regret it. But then sometimes she is really supportive and understanding, and I do get the support I am looking for. I think they call it random reinforcement (or something like that) in psychology. I guess when I am so upset, and I was UPSET when we left the therapist's office, I need someone to talk to, and I don't have anyone else to call. Not calling someone doesn't seem like an option, but then sometimes calling her makes it worse. I wish I had a better option there.

Quote:
And again I am so sorry for what you all have been through. I am curious if you feel all of his aggressive behavior is due to the abuse or if you think there are underlying causes and he will eventually receive a diagnosis. I have a child in my life who has aspergers and his behavior when he is raging sounds very much like your son's. When he was a toddler there were some subtle signs that he had some issues. I am wondering if you noticed anything before the first abuse incident? His behavior with intervention and age has gotten much better.
I hope things continue to improve for you and your son.
My son has always had a difficult temperament. I think that the behaviors I noticed earlier, particularly around 12-18 months, are related to SPD. For example, he used to throw himself backwards and slam his body and head into me. He would often do this when I was lying on the bed---stand up and throw himself backwards, slamming his head into my face. Often I would be sleepy or dozing off, so I wouldn't see it coming. I am fairly sure he broke my nose at least once, as it's now crooked, and he gave me a black eye and split lip. At the time I would think, "WHY DOES MY BABY WANT TO HURT ME????? THIS MAKES NO SENSE?" Now, looking back, I can see that these are clear indications of SPD.

He doesn't have any signs of autism. Bipolar Personality Disorder was suggested at one point, but I have talked to his doctors/therapists many times since then, and they are not comfortable with that diagnosis since he doesn't fit many of the criteria. I think Sensory Processing Disorder covers a lot of what is affecting him, along with the past trauma/abuse, many moves, and having very little family. His dad has never seen him and he only has me and my parents who love him. I think all of those things are factors as well.

Also, while being very bright (especially when it comes to verbal skills and vocabulary), he also has some very noticeable weak areas, some due to SPD, and when he becomes aware of those weaknesses, he gets very upset about it. For example, he was the only kid in his kindergarten class who couldn't color or draw. He could only scribble big spots of color, like you'd see a very small child do. He has always hated coloring and drawing, so I never forced him to do it, and he immediately recognized that he was not even close to what the other kids could do once he started kindergarten. He has made GREAT improvements since he started school though and is really trying.

Anyway, thanks for your post.
Bisou is offline  
#386 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 06:04 PM
 
Bebe's Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Queenstown, MD
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have been reading this thread over the last day or so, and I have to tell you that I think you are a strong, determined mother who is doing her best for her son. Your son is lucky to have you. Many parents would have effectively given up and burned out. I have no advice for you, but I would like to give you a link to this article http://www.slate.com/id/2273702/ Maybe it will help you find some answers. Good luck and stay strong.

fly-by-nursing1.gifSAHM living on the beautiful Eastern Shore with my husband the car nut banghead.gif, and bebe Eleanor, born 9/16/09 luxlove.gif plus two kitties! cat.gif
Bebe's Mom is offline  
#387 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ♥Charlie's~Angel♥ View Post
So many hugs mama. Lots of stuff has happened here since the last time I logged on. Im sorry your feeling attacked. Knowing you, its probably adding to your stress levels, becuase you probably take even the smallest amount from every post made to this thread.

I actually would still consider having his lead levels tested. Just as a means to rule that out as a possibility, you know? its easy enough to do. Im actually kind surprised that his Docs have never offered to have it done. I know I should have it done, but for whatever reason we keep forgetting every time the kids have a wbv. We live in a house that has been completly redone, and their daycare has been completly redone twice. But it could end up being in places you just never would have thought of. you know?

And yes, after reading the update about the phone convo you had with the therepist, I feel better. I actually think it is crucial for her to apologize to your son for withholding bathroom rights. VERY important. I also think coming up with a "time out" technique for when hes not at home is also a good idea. Have you ever tried the breathing before? I know its no compariason because my son is only 3 and has never been traumatized as your son has (he also does not have SPD), but its a technique we have used with him when hes mad or frustrated. It seems to work and grabs his attention enough so that he can stop focusing on whats making him so mad in the moment and calm down. LOL, works for ME too.

I am one of those silver lining people (like, even mushroom clouds have em) so I would be trying to focus on what we can take from this experience and LEARN from it. 1.) your therepist will probably never pull the whole bathroom part EVER again, with any child. But also, how can we take from this experience and better our situation. I dont want to fire off stuff, cuz im not there with you.

PS, How is your son? Have you all talked about what happened?
Hi Charlie's Angel~

At first I didn't know this was you. You changed your name!

I can ask his doctor about his lead levels. Perhaps it would be good to get a whole blood workup done, though I DREAD being there for that. I always hated when they did blood draws on him as a baby (for routine testing). It was awful!!!

I also agree that his therapist probably wouldn't withhold bathroom rights from a child again, or at least I would hope she wouldn't. She said she had thought about this literally for hours and hours (and we talked the day after it happened), so I think the session was upsetting for her as well. Honestly, I think my son baffles her a bit. I don't think she'd admit that, but I think she is often sure that this or that will work with him, but then it doesn't, and she seems honestly surprised. He is a combination of extremely smart and extremely stubborn, and along with his PTSD and SPD, this makes it very hard to find things that work.

I just think that God or the Universe (or whatever you believe) shouldn't be able to give a child like this to an unexperienced single mom with very little support. Honestly! This child is at least a 7 or 8 on the difficulty level (out of 1-10), and I was a novice parent raised by people with poor parenting skills. What the heck was God/the Universe thinking when he/it/they gave me this child? Sometimes I wonder how I will make it through this.

I do have to say that he is doing pretty well at school, and that was a HUGE concern for me. He says "School is AWESOME!" He is just exploding with his learning, constantly walking around sounding things out and trying to write. It's amazing what he has learned in this short time. I am very proud of him. Even though it's very hard for him to write and color, he always is excited to do his homework. He is getting along well at school, listens to his teacher, and has friends. The other kids seem to genuinely like him. I was worried about ALL of this. I was worried that I would be getting calls and he would be having major problems. But this is not the case. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for your post. I am going to miss calling you Barbie. . . . . Charlie? Angel?
Bisou is offline  
#388 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe's Mom View Post
I have been reading this thread over the last day or so, and I have to tell you that I think you are a strong, determined mother who is doing her best for her son. Your son is lucky to have you. Many parents would have effectively given up and burned out. I have no advice for you, but I would like to give you a link to this article http://www.slate.com/id/2273702/ Maybe it will help you find some answers. Good luck and stay strong.
Wow, Bebe's Mom. GREAT article. This is right in line with a lot of my thinking, and I swear, I have almost every book mentioned! My bookcase is somewhat embarrassing, and I always wonder what people will think of me and my son when they come over and see about 30 books about parenting "difficult," "explosive," "defiant," and "out of control" children. I hate the titles of most of those books! (Embarrassing to read while in public too!)

The article talks about the shortage of mental health professionals for children and the tendency to just prescribe meds because it's the easy thing for insurance companies to do. I am noticing this with our insurance company too. They have told me that seeing a therapist every 1-2 months is the best they can do, and when I say I'd like to see someone weekly, they say, "Well, we can get you on meds." I don't WANT to be on meds. I just need help managing my stress and making plans to improve my life and deal with things.

Also, people mentioned getting a different therapist for my son, but he was referred to this outside provider because my insurance company didn't really have therapists for kids, just psychiatrists to prescribe meds. She had a huge waiting list. At this point, my insurance co isn't even giving outside referrals, so I think that could mean my son would be without therapy. What they have is very limited.

I want to make clear that I am in NO WAY disparaging those of you who medicate your kids. That is your child and your decision, and I know most of you did not make that decision lightly. MDC parents are on the whole pretty thoughtful.

I just see this scary trend in ALL of mental health right now, for adults and kids. It's cheaper and easier for them to prescribe meds than to offer counseling and various therapies. My son's therapist charges $150 per session. His occupational therapy is about that, or even more. I am lucky we have access to what we do have!

I might think my son has BPD except that he is doing so much better and doesn't show all of the signs of BPD. I think that it's hard to distinguish the difference between his personality and SPD combined with the trauma from a mental disorder, but I think time will tell. Right now, I feel like he's very slowly improving.

Thanks for the post and article suggestion!
Bisou is offline  
#389 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 06:24 PM - Thread Starter
 
Bisou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 473
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
There is also a great discussion about this issue following that Salon.com article (link above). Very interesting points being made!
Bisou is offline  
#390 of 494 Old 11-08-2010, 08:27 PM
 
Bebe's Mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Queenstown, MD
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am glad you got something out of the article. What popped out at me was the fact that there are no studies on long term effects of using drugs on children. Also, it is inferred that psychiatric pediatric medicine is a very young field-not many studies have been done on pediatric mental illnesses, and I think many professionals rely on meds because they don't have the answers. It is possible that your son could have a multiple diagnosis, in which case meds may/may not help. Have you considered that he may have a sleeping disorder? I saw in one of your posts that he does not sleep well. My husband has sleep apnea, and I know from first hand experience that lack of sleep causes irrational rage. It may be a good idea to have a sleep study done. My DH used to fly off the handle at the smallest things, but since he was diagnosed and started using a CPAP, he has become much less inclined to go into a rage about nothing. I truly believe that sleep apnea profoundly affects the brain, since my FIL also has it, and he also has a short fuse, much shorter than my husband's, which I believe is due to going decades without sleep. I think that it is worth looking into anyway. I get the feeling from your posts that you are not satisfied with any of the possible Dx's you have been given, and I think your mother's instinct is that you have not hit on the right answer yet. Keep looking.

fly-by-nursing1.gifSAHM living on the beautiful Eastern Shore with my husband the car nut banghead.gif, and bebe Eleanor, born 9/16/09 luxlove.gif plus two kitties! cat.gif
Bebe's Mom is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off