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#61 of 80 Old 11-16-2009, 08:03 PM
 
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I asked my dh what would he do if he saw me depressed and miserable. His response "get you chocolate of course."
Can I borrow your husband?

OP, I don't know if I have anything to say other than to repeat that it's a horrible thing to do to people you love. And that camera would be gone in my house.

Kris - married to Nate since 12/06, mom to Toby since 1/08. Also servant to two felines. Done having babies for medical reasons.

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#62 of 80 Old 11-17-2009, 04:51 PM
 
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He said he feels that way because the tantruming was due to something illogical. I said, 3 yr olds ARE illogical. But a child's feelings/wants ARE his needs. It is REAL to him. Important. Intense. He feels the same emotions we feel when we grieve over loss.
Maybe he'll get it. Either way, he promised not to do it again. I made some of my own promises in return about things he feels strongly about.
At OP , I understand you.

My dp is a bit like that, he also took pics of me with his phone when I was cfrying and stuff, 8 mo pregnant....

He has no Asperger, but is a bit odd, he is like the ONE who knows what is best, so when my ds1 is having a tantrum, (3.5 y) he also says "suck it up/someting like that / it is no big thing..."etc.
When it IS a big thing. I try to validate my ds1 and ds2 's feelings, but dp thinks that validating is stupid, like if it is dwelling or drowning in your feelings and that trying to cheer up or stop the tantrum/crying ("he, you are not a girl!" ) is better.

I hate it when he says to stop what I am doing (validating) in the presence of the child in question.

I am glad that he promised not to do it anymore. I think, by reading your posts, you and your dh do have a strong band/connection and I am happy for you, you are loved and he is and this strange thing of his, I do hope he will at least try to follow you and respect the feelings of others in this situation.

My dp and I, we are not in a happy spot, but I can really feel you do have a great basis, all the best with trying to get through to him,OP!

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#63 of 80 Old 11-17-2009, 06:25 PM
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Glad you got him to agree to stop, OP.

This is making me wonder about a something. I wonder if we should throw out a few pictures we have of my son at about 4 mo, practically purple and screaming, stiff as a board (with me holding him, of course). DH says he took those pictures to show "the good and the bad" of our first year with Andrew. And truly, the pictures where he is smiling (which is most of them) represent about 5% of what he was actually like. But now I'm thinking it might be good to trash them. Hm.
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#64 of 80 Old 11-17-2009, 07:36 PM
 
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The OP's husband's behavior is abusive and grounds for divorce.

If he doesn't care about his wife's or children's feelings, then he does not have any respect for them. He needs to take their feelings seriously.

Humiliation is NOT okay.
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#65 of 80 Old 11-17-2009, 08:59 PM
 
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Glad you got him to agree to stop, OP.

This is making me wonder about a something. I wonder if we should throw out a few pictures we have of my son at about 4 mo, practically purple and screaming, stiff as a board (with me holding him, of course). DH says he took those pictures to show "the good and the bad" of our first year with Andrew. And truly, the pictures where he is smiling (which is most of them) represent about 5% of what he was actually like. But now I'm thinking it might be good to trash them. Hm.
I wouldn't. The pictures weren't intended to teach Andrew a lesson, your DH took them to illustrate how your lives were that that point in time. We have plenty of pictures of Toby crying as a baby and I think they are cute. They also remind me what I am not missing

If your DH had taken those pics to show Andrew "look what a horrid baby you were" then yeah, I'd get rid of them. Otherwise, Andrew will look at them someday and think "oh look at me as a baby! Wow, I wonder what I was so upset about." You know?

Kris - married to Nate since 12/06, mom to Toby since 1/08. Also servant to two felines. Done having babies for medical reasons.

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#66 of 80 Old 11-17-2009, 09:04 PM
 
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My husband took some pictures of me once half asleep, hair standing on end, 3 days without shower while camping. He took pictures of our then three year old having a doozy of a melt down. It really made me angry. He thought it was funny, taking the pictures was funny I mean.

In his family, that kind of thing is considered funny. Actually, compared to the rest of his family, DH's sense of humor is pretty mild. They are of the "guy gets hit in the groin" is hysterically funny school of thought. My in laws seriously think the Benny Hill show is the greatest comedy show of all times. Sadly, I've seen my SIL tease her niece almost to tears until DH stepped in. Our niece was six at the time, SIL was 32. My point is DH was never taught that this kind of humor isn't funny to the victim.

DH is an empathetic guy. He rescues stray dogs, gives home to feral cats, volunteers with homeless vets. He is generally loving and kind to both DS and I. He was the first person to realize I had post partum depression and make sure I got help.

I took four steps to deal with the problem.
1. I discussed it with him when I wasn't furious and explained why it bothered me.
2. I deleted or shredded all the pictures and videos I found offensive.
3. Then I video taped his family being "funny" which usually involved the victim of the joke in abject humiliation (din't video tape the victim). I had him watch the video and asked how he thought the victim felt and how he thought the people being "funny" looked to the rest of the world.
4. I photographed or video taped DH in some fairly embarrassing situations; snoring with his mouth wide open and drooling, going to the bathroom, loosing his temper when he couldn't fix the car. To his credit, he actually laughed at the pictures of himself, but he was humiliated by the video tape of him losing his temper.

Now, he won't even take a photo without asking. The few times he started to slip, I just ask him if he really wanted to have this fight.
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#67 of 80 Old 11-17-2009, 10:15 PM
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I haven't read all the posts, but I haven't noticed anyone discussing the value of tantrums. Tantrums are a LOs way of learning to deal with big overwhelming emotions. It's fine being supportive and comforting, but we don't want to shame or scare the child into stopping the tantrum because it's important for human beings to learn how to deal with big overwhelming emotions. Research has shown if a child is punished for tantrums they may not learn to deal properly with their emotions and have emotional outbursts and anger problems as teens and adults.

I don't know about your DH, but I'd rather have my DD have her tantrums between 2 and 4 years of age instead of have them as a teen and adult. After she became able to say "I'm angry at/about xyz" at about 3.5 the tantrums have mostly stopped.
As for the other issue, we don't have any pictures or videos of her being unhappy. We just don't think it's respectful to take embarrassing pictures or even pictures without someones consent.
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#68 of 80 Old 11-18-2009, 04:26 PM
 
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I would be mad too, especially the one of you with depression, that was just not right. Have you talked to him about it? I would steal the camera and hide it.

I hate to say this, but my dad once (and I mean ONLY ONCE) took pictures of me and my brother having a tantrum when I was 8 I think? My brother was around 6. We saw those pictures and never had one again quite like that at least. We had little ones, but not like those. But we were also a lot older and understood. When kids are older I don't see anything wrong with showing them how to throw a better tantrum (For Better for For Worse comic strip), or showing them what it looks like, but they have to comprehend it. A 3.5 year old won't.

Try talking to him about it or hide the camera.

Mother to a crazy wonderful son born 7-11-09 and A very determined amazing daughter born 5-3-12!
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#69 of 80 Old 11-19-2009, 11:04 PM
 
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I hope you and DH have found some peace on this.

I think there tends to be severe reactions to partners on this board, because we can't know the whole story. I think there's always the possibility that the partner can be given the benefit of the doubt, no matter the mistake that was made.

He tried it once, he was censured for it, possibly felt he had to hold on to his dignity by insisting it was right. My husband tends to react that way (the "I will do it a THOUSAND TIMES" kind of thing) when I get in his face or bent out of shape (OP_I don't know how you reacted, just saying IME). But when I calmly let him know how I feel, without berating him, and trust him to really think it over and reconsider (in private), he reacts much more reasonably.

I think there is something to be said for having faith in your partner, his intentions, and his ability to reason and evaluate his own behavior, the same way we attempt to do with our children. I say this out of helpfulness. And experience. Good luck!
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#70 of 80 Old 11-19-2009, 11:22 PM
 
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I hope you and DH have found some peace on this.

I think there tends to be severe reactions to partners on this board, because we can't know the whole story. I think there's always the possibility that the partner can be given the benefit of the doubt, no matter the mistake that was made.

He tried it once, he was censured for it, possibly felt he had to hold on to his dignity by insisting it was right. My husband tends to react that way (the "I will do it a THOUSAND TIMES" kind of thing) when I get in his face or bent out of shape (OP_I don't know how you reacted, just saying IME). But when I calmly let him know how I feel, without berating him, and trust him to really think it over and reconsider (in private), he reacts much more reasonably.

I think there is something to be said for having faith in your partner, his intentions, and his ability to reason and evaluate his own behavior, the same way we attempt to do with our children. I say this out of helpfulness. And experience. Good luck!
I just can't believe he even did it once! It's just so incredibly insensitive. Then again, I'm going through PPD myself right now so it's very close to my heart.

Tristian, vegetarian wife to Matt, intactivist, UC supporting mama to my little earth-child-in-training, Ginny (4), and my sweet boy, Finnian (2).  Due mid-July with our third little one!

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#71 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
 
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My dh and I have been together for 5 yrs. When he first did it to my oldest son, I did not have this reaction.
It was the fact that he continued to do it despite the fact that I said I didn't like it., son said he didn't like it.
Now that it came up again with a toddler in the house, I've lost all tolerance for it.
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#72 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 02:03 PM
 
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Hey OP. Just came across this thread and have read the responses thus far. It sounds like things have been "worked out" between you and your DH, to some extent. I hope that's the case.


Something I've always noticed here is that mamas get a great deal of support. Dads.... not so much. That's okay. It's "Mothering" not "Fathering". That said, I see a lot of anger coming through you posts - you mention that the camera is yours, so I assume at least something things are not shared in your household, between you and your husband. I also read that you hid the camera from him. And, that you got furious and screamed at him about this issue in front of your children. I think that goes to show how much this really bothers you!

The possessiveness, hiding and fighting behaviors are no more or less healthy/"abusive" than his behavior. He says he'll do it 1000 times. So you hide the camera. Not healthy on either side. I hope that doesn't come off as harsh. I don't mean it that way! I agree with the previous posters who think you might benefit from couples counseling, but I suspect you'll find that you both need to work a little more with each other. I say this gently, but for you to essentially tantrum over your husband taping your child's tantrum (which I personally think is weird, but fits into the myriad of GD techniques).... I think neither of you are teaching your children anything about better behavior or about conflict resolution. Don't recall what your child was tantruming about in the first place, but like many 3y/o, it was probably about not getting what he wanted. He may be mimicking...

It is great to have a man who stands his ground. No, this doesn't mean I think he should be able to beat you, but he's standing firm on a parenting issue within your home and with your children. We celebrate the man who says "Well, I'm going to anyway." to doctors who warn about avoiding vaccines... Same behavior, different circumstance. This is just an example. Your DH seems to care and to be involved in an ongoing way. It's normal to disagree on parenting techniques, but just because you disagree or don't like something doesn't make your husband less entitled to parent your children.

For his taping behavior to be labeled abusive minimizes true abuse. I sincerely think he believes this technique will help - and in some situations, it probably does. Counseling may help both of you hear each other a little better, and interact better when you disagree. This in turn sets a better example for your children.

Good luck!

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#73 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 02:15 PM
 
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I will always maintain that the most important thing someone in anger/pain/fear needs when they are falling apart in front of a trusted family member is comfort, love, empathy or maybe even a circle of space.
But not a camera in the face.
I still want to know what ANYONE feels a 3 yr old can learn/interpret from watching himself tantrum. What is he learning? That he looks ridiculous? That he won't do it again? So what does he do with the emotions next time? Hide them? Hold them in?
Does he learn he can't be vulnerable with us?
What does he GAIN?
I can't even read the rest of the thread, it's so disturbing to me. IMHO your DH is absolutely wrong and in this issue, abusive. I don't care how great a parent someone is, to blatantly disregard someone's feelings over and over again is WRONG. If you are telling him this is a no-argument issue for you, that should be it.

But re: your question, I don't think it will teach a 3 y/o anything constructive, and in fact I think it will be very damaging. The early years are when kids learn to deal with scary emotions like anger and fear. My 4.5 y/o can't even watch cartoons with angry or very sad characters--they freak him out. I'm not talking extreme examples either, I mean like Cailou upset over accidentally coloring in a library book--that was too much realistic emotion for my preschooler. I can't even imagine how upsetting seeing himself lose control would be. He's much further along than your child developmentally age-wise, and I am 100% certain that he would learn NOTHING from seeing his tantrums other than fear, humiliation, and insecurity.

I don't want to dogpile on your husband (and I haven't read the rest of the thread so maybe I'm missing some important info), but I think he needs to read some AP discipline books--Gentle Parenting, the Sears Discipline Books, Playful Parenting, Parent Effectiveness Training...something.

What he is doing is WRONG and you are right to put a stop to it. He should stop because it bothers you so much, if nothing else.
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#74 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 02:55 PM
 
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For his taping behavior to be labeled abusive minimizes true abuse. I sincerely think he believes this technique will help - and in some situations, it probably does.
Humiliating someone is emotional abuse, and emotional abuse IS true abuse. If he did it once and wasn't aware of how she responded and stopped, it would be one thing. But he knew how much it hurt her and continued. This IS real abuse, and women who suffer from emotional abuse deserve the same recognition and support as those who suffer physical abuse.

Also, people who spank think it will help, and in many cases it stops the behavior that is a problem. That doesn't make it OK. The ends do not justify the means.
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#75 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 03:03 PM
 
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How about getting another camera and tape hubby taping your tantruming child and show him how ridiculous, unhelpful, and insensitive he looks? Turnabout is fair play and all that...
: sounds fair to me...

ETA- read whole thread, glad he agreed to stop.

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Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.”
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#76 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 03:18 PM
 
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Hey OP, I'm glad things are turning in the right direction.

Of course it's hard to judge what is going on between two people in a relationship--human relationships are just too dynamic to be summed up in a post. I would tend to think the videotape and replay method of parenting is probably not choice for a 3 year old, but I haven't BTDT. Only you know how it is impacting you and your child, so I wanted to offer a .

Incidentally, I can see where someone might result to videotaping a child's tantrum and showing it to them (and then destroying the tape) if the child were, say 10 years old, and clearly able to understand the inappropriateness of it. But I don't know.

I hope you and your Huz are working towards a happier, healthier place, however you can. Good luck to you both.

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#77 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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Humiliating someone is emotional abuse, and emotional abuse IS true abuse. If he did it once and wasn't aware of how she responded and stopped, it would be one thing. But he knew how much it hurt her and continued. This IS real abuse, and women who suffer from emotional abuse deserve the same recognition and support as those who suffer physical abuse.

Also, people who spank think it will help, and in many cases it stops the behavior that is a problem. That doesn't make it OK. The ends do not justify the means.
I just wanted to say that I completely agree with this post. Completely.
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#78 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 05:04 PM
 
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Just wanted to check back in and restate my point, in case I was unclear. Again, OP, I'm ever trying to offer helpful suggestions and feedback and I do know this has to be a challenging situation for you and your DH.

In my opinion, your DH is not abusing you or your children by attempting to record a temper tantrum or other episode and then replay it so that you or the children can observe yourselves. Weird? Yes!! It is weird. Do I think it works? Clearly not in this situation. But it isn't abusive - even emotionally. Especially during arguments, even extended ones, most people refuse to drop an issue and continue to belabor the point. Helpful? No. Emotional? Yes, for both parties. Abusive? NO, not generally.


Emotional, physical, mental, spiritual... abuse takes many forms. But one parent disagreeing over parenting tactic/technique, however passionately, and the other continuing to do it (or refusing) does not make the situation abusive. It's no more abusive than OP disagreeing and not allowing her DH to video tape.

If it hurts him that she continuously refuses to allow it (and clearly it does), and makes him feel humiliated as a father, does that make her abusive? I'd challenge anyone to find as much support for that claim on these boards - both because she's the mother and because it's just as ludicrous a claim on the flipside.

Both parents have a right to make parenting choices, even those the other parent disagrees with. Homogeneity in parenting does not provide children the opportunity to observe passionate argument and resolution, to observe senseless acts and then, sensitivity & apology, etc.

To bring up spanking as a defense is shallow. This is a much more delicate issue. Given that the OP stated her husband was otherwise a wonderful father makes it crystal clear to me that this is an isolated disagreement between the parents and should be approached as such - not by a hysteric "I'd throw him out so fast..." perspective. That simply isn't rational or helpful, and to label the husband abusive may be what OP is looking for, but I suspect it is not truth. Let us remember not to bear false witness against others - most if not all of our replies are, to this family, the thoughts of strangers. There is an important difference between being angry/in disagreement and being humiliated - another term thrown around much too casually. To label this woman's husband as emotionally abusive so casually and one-sidedly is a shame to those who do so.


Again, good luck OP. I do think pastoral or marital counseling is a great idea for parents who are committed to healthy parenting but struggling to see eye to eye on specific issues. You may not end up seeing eye to eye on this, but hopefully you can find some discipline compromises that help the most important person in this situation - your kid. Take care!!

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#79 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 05:08 PM
 
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No, refusing to allow something to be done to you is not abusive. Repeatedly doing something to someone against their will is.
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#80 of 80 Old 11-20-2009, 10:25 PM
 
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BIL did this to MIL while she was on life support! She didn't go to the doctors and almost died. He thought he could teach her a lesson. She felt extremely sad and violated. I don't think he realized how weird it was or something... maybe your dh just doesn't get how weird that is. Can you tell him when he is calm... he may be more open to it.
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