other moms who spank their kids & advocate for it... - Mothering Forums
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#1 of 41 Old 02-27-2010, 11:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Where do I start? All I can think is what the....????!!!!
I've had two experiences in as many days in casual conversation with other moms who advocate spanking their kids. And....you won't effing believe this, but one of them was telling another mom to do this to keep the child from coming to the parents bed in the middle of the night.
She has gone on and on, on more than one occasion, about how she "beats" her son's "ass", laughing while she is saying it. He's a toddler. Believe me, I will be distancing myself from her as soon as possible but currently we are working on a volunteer project together and so I do see her weekly. I just could not get my head around this.
The mom with the child who kept coming into her bed said she had taken toys away from her daughter, kept her home from her gym class, all in an effort to get her to stop coming into her bed in the middle of the night and she was at a loss as to what to do when the other mom told her to pull her pants down and spank her. Really???!!!! Your child wants to snuggle with you and it's not like she's gonna be doing that when she's in high school, so why would you want to miss this sweet opportunity to hold her while she sleeps or just sleep next to her? Not only that, you are going to PUNISH her for it?????!!!!!!!
Then today, another mom was telling me she spanks her 6 year old because she stands on the furniture. WHAT????!!!
Interestingly, both moms admitted that spanking/hitting their kids did not work! Both of these moms were subjected to even more severe corporal punishment by their own parents and both of them have distant relationships with their parents. Not sure they make this connection.
I am just feeling like this . Dh and I just cannot understand and feel so bad for the kids in these situations.
Just needed to vent this because it is really on my mind. I've gotta get some more g.d. friends to hang around with.
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#2 of 41 Old 02-27-2010, 11:52 PM
 
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The mom with the child who kept coming into her bed said she had taken toys away from her daughter, kept her home from her gym class, all in an effort to get her to stop coming into her bed in the middle of the night and she was at a loss as to what to do when the other mom told her to pull her pants down and spank her. Really???!!!!
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#3 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 12:03 AM
 
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I had a coworker suggest that I spank DD for night waking (that was over a year ago). He said i was "rewarding her" by letting her come into our bed. I was so shocked that I couldn't even reply with something coherent.

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#4 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 01:08 AM
 
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I just don't get this. If your spouse hit you b/c you were late with dinner or something else ridiculous it's abuse, but if you smack your kid b/c they stand on furniture or get scared in the middle of the night it's parenting? People make my head hurt.

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#5 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 01:33 AM
 
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I totally know how you feel- it is hard for me to shake things
like that. I get really upset when I see kids obviously not buckled up while the car is moving.
I would atleast say something in regards to gd parenting- you never know when it will change a life. When I was pregnant with #1 a lady asked me if I would breastfeed, I explained that I never really thought about it, she said that I should because it is really good for the babies. So, because of her words, I gave it a thought and breastfed. I really don't think I would have if it weren't for her, especially because I was advised to formula feed at the hospital after he was born because he was big and needed it.

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#6 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 01:49 AM
 
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I am always dumbfounded when I hear things like that too op.

I really believe it all comes down to the basic fact that children are not thought of as human beings, deserving equal consideration, kindness, and understanding as adults do.

They are thought of as things to control, punish, reward, manipulate, and groom into what you want them to be.

I believe that most parenst love their children and want what is best for them but they (for whatever reason, there are so many complex issues) are unable to make the connection that how you treat a child is how they will treat others and expect to be treated as adults.

It also seems like I hear a lot of "My parents [insert any number of "parenting techniques/offenses"] and I turned out just fine!" Well, I guess if by "fine" you mean, an altogether violent, unnattached, lacking in compassion, judgemental, hurting society, then okay, that's fine, I guess. KWIM?

I have sooooo much to learn w/my kids but at the very base and core of it all I love and respect them as human beings that have been temporarily entrusted into my care. Being a parent is just hard, as is being in every other human relationship. For some reason that I still haven't figured out, it's still socially acceptable to physically hurt a child in a caregiver/child relationship, but is wholly unnacceptable and even criminal in EVERY other relationship.

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#7 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 01:55 AM
 
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nak what dumbfounds me is when they advocate for it but at the same time show shame for it.

Their conversation goes like this: "It's good, kids need it, but of course it should only be used rarely. Just a light bop on the leg. It's not to hurt them or anything."

They never say what "it" is and they always contradict themselves. Well if "it" is supposed to work, why rarely? And how can you hit a kid "lightly" or "without causing pain"?

Someone once advised me on what to do if DD ever bit me. "You need to bite her back to show her that it hurts. Just don't really bite her. Just, you know, do it really lightly, like pretend play."

My head was spinning.

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#8 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 02:08 AM
 
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I have never been in this situation before (thank God!) but if I were, I would ask the person if they would hit a dog and if not, how can they treat their pets differently than their human child? The answer for dogs is that it messes up their personality apart from being inhumane. Why would I do this to a child?

It amazes me that there is more awareness about dogs than children, but there is.
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#9 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 12:27 PM
 
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I used to get this sometimes when dd was younger. I would bring up the fact that men used to legally be able to beat or even kill their wives, but we no longer consider that to be legal or manly. I then ask why it could possibly be good parenting to hit a person who is three feet tall with no one to go to for protection.
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#10 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 01:43 PM
 
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"Honey its in the middle of the night let me walk you back to bed"... I mean seriously we did go through times where I knew it was overall better to gently enforce my DD sleeping in her own bed than allowing her in ours where she'd play and disturb everyone else (and yes we are and were cosleepers) but why the punishment? Parenting doesn't end at 8pm

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#11 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 04:57 PM
 
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I think a lot of it comes down to lazy parenting. I will get you to do what I want NOW by hitting you but I'm not going to put the time and effort into disciplining you in a respectful and thoughtful way. Positive discipline means having to learn about your child and develop an understanding of their behavior and a lot of people don't want to or don't know how to do that. They view the parent-child relationship as adversarial, something I observe all too often unfortunately.

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#12 of 41 Old 02-28-2010, 10:08 PM
 
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"Honey its in the middle of the night let me walk you back to bed"... I mean seriously we did go through times where I knew it was overall better to gently enforce my DD sleeping in her own bed than allowing her in ours where she'd play and disturb everyone else (and yes we are and were cosleepers) but why the punishment? Parenting doesn't end at 8pm

Deanna
Yeah. It's not an all-or-nothing thing. I routinely take my kids back to their own beds in the middle of the night. I won't say I'm always the soul of patience-- I frequently let my irritation creep into my tone. I ask them what's wrong, sometimes in a bit of a testy way, then solve the problem if there is a problem, and then tell them it's the middle of the night, it's time to sleep, so here, let me take you back to bed. You don't have to choose between cosleeping and beating your kids-- there is a middle ground in there, quite a wide one actually. I don't cosleep routinely past the first year of life, but that doesn't mean I have to resort to whacking my kids.

The thing that really bothers me most is the "pull the pants down" part. Spanking a kid at all is bad enough, but stripping off a child's clothing in order to spank them bare is a humiliating invasion of a child's pride, modesty, and dignity. It can have consequences that stay with kids throughout their lives, and seriously undermine their ability to have healthy, satisfying emotional and sexual relationships. I would call it sexual abuse. I really would. And I'll stand by that statement.

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#13 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 12:00 PM
 
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The thing that really bothers me most is the "pull the pants down" part. Spanking a kid at all is bad enough, but stripping off a child's clothing in order to spank them bare is a humiliating invasion of a child's pride, modesty, and dignity. It can have consequences that stay with kids throughout their lives, and seriously undermine their ability to have healthy, satisfying emotional and sexual relationships. I would call it sexual abuse. I really would. And I'll stand by that statement.
I agree I cringe and am saddened when I hear about or witness or even recall my own child hood of being spanked over clothes it was humiliting and unecessary enough but I've also BTDT as a parent and know how deep generations of that sort of punishment can run and how it can be a quick non thinking spur of the moment gut reaction. But adding in removal of clothes I fail to see where some part of the brain doesn't think this is TOO far. And as a sexual abuse (not related to punishment) surivor I can say with confidence violating personal space IS a huge deal.

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#14 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 01:31 PM
 
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I was at a superbowl party with a bunch of people I didn't know and the only other young mother there had one child my child's age(2) and then a baby. The party was huge and at one point, in front of quite a large crowd, completely unsolicited, she came into the kitchen and interjected that if her 2yo did anything "bad" then she totally advocates spanking and anyone of us was totally within reason to administer! WHAT???? Total strangers supposed to spank your kid???!?
And the kicker was that she was a breastfeeding mom, a baby-wearing mom?!
It made my head spin and I didn't know what to say but I won't soon forget it!
Some people are just twisted in the head!
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#15 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 01:49 PM
 
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I just don't get this. If your spouse hit you b/c you were late with dinner or something else ridiculous it's abuse, but if you smack your kid b/c they stand on furniture or get scared in the middle of the night it's parenting? People make my head hurt.
THIS.

I don't think that spousal hitting is appropriate, either, why would it be appropriate to hit a child? Especially all the "rule of thumb" craziness about it like if you don't leave bruises, it's not child abuse, or whatever the laws are.

Luckily mine is still too young for people to tell me to hit her, but I imagine my response to that would not be pretty.

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#16 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 02:03 PM
 
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Did you say something? I would say something. I would say it calmly and use I statements -- like, I would never hit my child because x y and z. But I would speak up.

Jen, journalist, policy wonk, and formerly a proud single mama to my sweet little man Cyrus, born at home Dec. 2007 . Now married to my Incredibly Nice Guy and new mama to baby Arthur.
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#17 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 03:17 PM
 
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And the kicker was that she was a breastfeeding mom, a baby-wearing mom?!
It made my head spin and I didn't know what to say but I won't soon forget it!
Some people are just twisted in the head!
One of the first "AP" mamas I ever knew breastfed and extended home birth home schooled baby wearing cosleeping no vaxing organic promoting ect quiverful family also was a HUGE trip fan and openly talked about spanking for change of heart. . I naturally fall kinda in the middle I extend breastfeed but evenuntually also add bottles and formula to the picture, I do some immuzation we cosleep when best but also encourage independent sleep pretty early (but no CIO) I baby wear but LOVE my stroller enjoy making healthy food choices but am not anti occasional FF and microwave meals ect... I discipline as needed and hold my child to fairly firm and high standards... Yet I make cautious choices not to spank or use punitive measures. sometimes I fail yes but the effort is there and success is more and more.

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#18 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 04:58 PM
 
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THIS.

I don't think that spousal hitting is appropriate, either, why would it be appropriate to hit a child? Especially all the "rule of thumb" craziness about it like if you don't leave bruises, it's not child abuse, or whatever the laws are.

Luckily mine is still too young for people to tell me to hit her, but I imagine my response to that would not be pretty.
Actually, according to some people, 10 months is not too young. I had friends over the other night for dinner, and they have a 12-month-old. She kept sticking her hands in our dog's water bowl, and they kept telling her "no." The third time, the mom (who, by the way, is a breastfeeding, babywearing, etc. etc. mom) walks into my kitchen, calmly grabs a wooden spoon, and smacks her daughter's hands. I WAS HORRIFIED! I could not contain myself. This from a mama I thought I had so much in common with! When I tried to talk to her about it, she told me they had started spanking when she was 10 month's old and "knew what 'no' meant." I am sick to my stomach just writing this.

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#19 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 05:03 PM
 
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It's taken me awhile.. but I've found the most effective thing is to not judge to their face their spanking, but suggest other GD methods. Example (not the best, I'll admit)...

So... coming to the bed... I'd say, "Oh really? You know, DD was doing that for awhile when she was two... and we realized that it was just normal being scared of the dark. We let her pick out a new Dora nightlight and it's been great. Of course, I don't care if she comes to us if she's really scared... cause that's what we're there for...but the Dora nightlight really helped."

Jumping on the furniture (6 year old)... "Oh, whenever DS1 does that, I know it means we haven't had enough time outside. Usually I'll send him into the backyard or organize some relay races with his brother."

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#20 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 05:52 PM
 
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Actually, according to some people, 10 months is not too young. I had friends over the other night for dinner, and they have a 12-month-old. She kept sticking her hands in our dog's water bowl, and they kept telling her "no." The third time, the mom (who, by the way, is a breastfeeding, babywearing, etc. etc. mom) walks into my kitchen, calmly grabs a wooden spoon, and smacks her daughter's hands. I WAS HORRIFIED! I could not contain myself. This from a mama I thought I had so much in common with! When I tried to talk to her about it, she told me they had started spanking when she was 10 month's old and "knew what 'no' meant." I am sick to my stomach just writing this.
oh. my. :Puke

i just want to cry my eyes out for that l.o.

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#21 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 05:58 PM
 
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Octobermom, you sound very much like me. What is a "trip fan"?

With something like this, I always wish that I had responded calmly, stating facts about how useless and in fact harmful spanking is. I always feel confident if I'm able to cite a recent study, or from a certain author or parenting expert. You know, something like " x study showed that children who are hit are 10 x more likely to drop out of school" . . . Of course, you could just start something of a pointless back-and-forth as there is that prevailing view that children who are NOT hit wind up being spoiled and selfish. But the current research really does show that it backfires in a big way. I know for me it sure would have been satisfying to respond with, "Poor kid! Of all things, what an awful thing to be spanked for."

I agree with the statement that it really is lazy. It's easy, whereas redirecting, comforting, teaching, all of that takes effort. And I wholeheartedly agree about the pulling down the pants--yeah, that's a good idea, add a dollop of humiliation to the pain.
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#22 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 07:30 PM
 
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What is a "trip fan"
ted trip Sheparding your childs heart.. http://www.amazon.com/Shepherding-Ch.../dp/0966378601

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#23 of 41 Old 03-01-2010, 11:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Did you say something? I would say something. I would say it calmly and use I statements -- like, I would never hit my child because x y and z. But I would speak up.
I did. I asked her (the mother who advocated spanking for not staying in the bed) if spanking worked to change her childrens' behaviour. She said "No, they keep doing it, it's so frustrating." Then when she was talking about how her mother beat her with a switch as a child, over and over, for the same things, I pointed out that it didn't work for her either. She agreed.

I wish I'd said more. I'll probably get another opportunity.

Oh, and this is a breastfeeding, baby wearing mom.
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#24 of 41 Old 03-02-2010, 12:21 AM
 
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I have not made much leeway against the spanking culture by comparing it to other forms of abuse. I just get hit down with "kids needs to be spanked b/c they don't know right from wrong. You don't hit your spouse b/c he should already know what is right or wrong."

Trust me, I know it's BS. I'm just feeling stuck b/c the analogies are not stimulating any higher brain processing.

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#25 of 41 Old 03-02-2010, 09:46 AM
 
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"kids needs to be spanked b/c they don't know right from wrong. You don't hit your spouse b/c he should already know what is right or wrong."
"but spanking doesn't teach right from wrong. It teaches that if someone does something that upsets you, you should hit them. Unless you think that's the right way to respond to people?"

I have heard a couple comments (from before I had kids, but I still felt the same way) that "well I didn't want to spank, but it's the only thing that worked on her." And I said at the time something like "well that's like a guy saying, well my wife always argued with me and nagged me about every little thing, until I started punching her in the mouth every time she said something I didn't like. I didn't WANT to punch her in the mouth, but nothing else worked."

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#26 of 41 Old 03-02-2010, 01:47 PM
 
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I am always dumbfounded when I hear things like that too op.

I really believe it all comes down to the basic fact that children are not thought of as human beings, deserving equal consideration, kindness, and understanding as adults do.

They are thought of as things to control, punish, reward, manipulate, and groom into what you want them to be.

I believe that most parenst love their children and want what is best for them but they (for whatever reason, there are so many complex issues) are unable to make the connection that how you treat a child is how they will treat others and expect to be treated as adults.

It also seems like I hear a lot of "My parents [insert any number of "parenting techniques/offenses"] and I turned out just fine!" Well, I guess if by "fine" you mean, an altogether violent, unnattached, lacking in compassion, judgemental, hurting society, then okay, that's fine, I guess. KWIM?

I have sooooo much to learn w/my kids but at the very base and core of it all I love and respect them as human beings that have been temporarily entrusted into my care. Being a parent is just hard, as is being in every other human relationship. For some reason that I still haven't figured out, it's still socially acceptable to physically hurt a child in a caregiver/child relationship, but is wholly unnacceptable and even criminal in EVERY other relationship.
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#27 of 41 Old 03-02-2010, 01:56 PM
 
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Another thing I don't get about spanking is people say if you're going to do it, don't do it in anger...wait until you calm down and do it later so you don't hit them too hard. Umm...if you are doing something where there is a risk you could "do it too hard" why are you doing it at all? And if you're going to come back after you have cooled down why can't you use that time to come up with a better idea than hitting your kid???
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#28 of 41 Old 03-02-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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Another thing I don't get about spanking is people say if you're going to do it, don't do it in anger...wait until you calm down and do it later so you don't hit them too hard. Umm...if you are doing something where there is a risk you could "do it too hard" why are you doing it at all? And if you're going to come back after you have cooled down why can't you use that time to come up with a better idea than hitting your kid???
Yeah. Spanking in the heat of the moment is bad enough. But to go away, and calm down, and think it through, and still make a cold-blooded decision to go ahead and hit a kid-- that's just malicious.

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#29 of 41 Old 03-02-2010, 02:45 PM
 
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I get sick of other people telling me that "it's the only way they'll learn." I have a huge problem with my MIL with this. Slapping fingers and hands..it irks me to no end. I had an issue with Dh last night. It was a rather unpleasant altercation and he went to sleep without telling me good night but I don't care. "It's the only way they will learn" bull-shit line really me off. You. Don't.Hit. Children.

 

 

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#30 of 41 Old 03-02-2010, 03:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Llyra View Post
Yeah. Spanking in the heat of the moment is bad enough. But to go away, and calm down, and think it through, and still make a cold-blooded decision to go ahead and hit a kid-- that's just malicious.
Not to mention if you wait too long in between, how is the child going to make the association between the behaviour and the spanking?

Now mom to a boy born January 2010. 
Cautiously expecting Dec 2014!

 12/08 (6 weeks),  1/13 (11 weeks), &  12/13 (9.5 weeks)
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