Please tell me what I'm doing wrong?? Is it me? - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#151 of 164 Old 06-15-2010, 08:06 PM
 
treehugginhippie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To the OP, this is a VERY good book (and I also took the class...you could probably google it to see if there's one in your area but the book alone would be very helpful). I think it would be a good resource for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Redirecting-Ch.../dp/1884734308

Tina - mama to DD1 10yrs, DD2 5.5 yrs and DD3 22 mo and wifey to DH.
treehugginhippie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#152 of 164 Old 06-19-2010, 09:32 AM
 
*LoveBugMama*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokenheart View Post
I think I am, but who knows I guess. Sometimes there aren't any choices to be had...we need things to happen (ex: we need to go somewhere, we need to do something). So in those cases, there aren't choices. But I think overall she has plenty of leeway/free time. Maybe she doesn't feel that way.

The thing I really struggle with is how to respond to her mouthiness/disrespectful behaviour. I can honestly say my sibling and I would never have talked to my mom the way she talks to me. I don't mean she calls me names or anything. But she is very mouthy ("No, I don't have to!" "I don't care!" "I don't like you" etc). I am very reasonable. I am kind. I try to stay calm/matter of fact and have natural consequences. It is like she wants a power struggle over the dumbest things (like whether or not to brush her teeth before bed). I certainly don't control her every waking moment. In fact, I'm actually a really laid back parent. I can never understand why, when we are having a nice time, she wants to ruin it by arguing about something so trivial/routine.

So since what I'm currently doing isn't working well, I am wondering if I should try being more heavy handed and authortarian (SO not me ). I am gentle by nature. I don't like yelling or arguments. Get it so she knows I won't take any attitude/rude behavior and I won't listen to her rant and rave or talk back to me. My friend is like this, and her kids are very well behaved. They would never talk back. I'm jealous. But I want my DD to love/respect/trust me. Not fear me. Oh, parenting is soooooooooo hard.

I have only read the responses up until this post (the one I am quoting), so I am sorry if I am reapeting stuff:


Is it possible that you are TOO laidback? In my own life, I am a very laidback/freedomoriented parent. But my son doesn`t respond well to that. at all. He needs to KNOW what do to, what is allowed etc. He needs boundaries and he needs ME to be very clear about where MY boundaries are.

Have you read anything by the Danish writer Jesper Juul? (http://www.amazon.com/Your-Competent...6951175&sr=8-1) He is amazing, and the most popular GD-writer in Scandinavia. (I`m Norwegian.) He is of the mindset that children need lots of freedom, but they need parents that are parents and guides, not just friends. He says that kids don`t need boundaries around themselves mostly, but they need to see where other peoples boundaries are, and that absolutely includes the parents.

I am just like you. Very likely to be caught up in my kids feelings/emotions. And very likely to let him cross my boundaries, too ensure I am not too strict etc. But it`s not a good thing. And my son gest confused. He is a child, and he needs to feel that the world/the family/our relathinshp isn`t HIS responsibility, but mine.

I am NOT saying this is your "issue", but just offering support and advice. I hope I haven`t offended you.

*Single, attached Norwegian mama to my LoveBug, 2001*
 
*LoveBugMama* is offline  
#153 of 164 Old 06-19-2010, 12:31 PM
 
*LoveBugMama*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
My suggestion was asking whether she wanted to take a bath before or after they went out, and that's somehow been turned into having a child who never bathes to the point where she gets teased in junior high. There are options between forcing a child kicking and screaming to take a bath, and having a child who never bathes. There is a false dichotomy being set up here.
I agree, letting the child choose when is absolutely the best option. Except, in the OP`s case it wasn`t doable. She has stated many times that the child actually couldn`t bath after. She also stated ones that the water was going to get turned off, so the only chance was before shopping.

*Single, attached Norwegian mama to my LoveBug, 2001*
 
*LoveBugMama* is offline  
#154 of 164 Old 06-19-2010, 03:32 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by *LoveBugMama* View Post
I agree, letting the child choose when is absolutely the best option. Except, in the OP`s case it wasn`t doable. She has stated many times that the child actually couldn`t bath after. She also stated ones that the water was going to get turned off, so the only chance was before shopping.
I'm not willing to accept that there were no other possibilities. There are almost always other possibilities. Then a bath right away after the water gets turned back on, or a sponge bath right away and a full bath after the water gets turned back on. I think where a child's bodily autonomy is involved, it's important to keep working until you find a solution that is acceptable to them.
mamazee is offline  
#155 of 164 Old 06-19-2010, 04:21 PM
 
EdnaMarie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,937
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"I'm not willing to accept that there were no other possibilities. There are almost always other possibilities."

We're a military family. We could get kicked out of our home (military housing) if my husband messes up at work, and I am sometimes required to, say, get my children minimally dressed to drive him somewhere (if I need the car later and he has to carry 100 lbs of goods with him, work is 3 miles away). So for us, we FREQUENTLY come up with a situation where the child must forgo her own desires in order to help our family.

For those of us who face daily bouts of is-it-really-necessary-why-can't-they-just-comply-ugh-he'll-lose-his-job-what-will-we-do*, the suggestion that there's always a work-around is so frustrating.

It's not that the stay-at-home-parent gets to stay home with the kids. The kids get to stay home with a parent. Lucky Mom to DD1 (4 y) and DD2 (18 mo), Wife to Mercenary Dad
EdnaMarie is offline  
#156 of 164 Old 06-19-2010, 05:30 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I didn't say anything about forgoing desires. I said that this is in regard to issues of bodily autonomy only. I don't work as hard on finding consensual agreements on every other issue. But issues of bodily autonomy are a big deal to me. My kids own their bodies and get to ultimately decide what happens to them. If something is important to me, such as that they take a bath, I explain how I feel, which is never that I'd be embarrassed to be with them but has been that I don't want people to think I don't take proper care of them, and I work with them. Well the older one as the other one is a young toddler. But I work with her and we talk about it. "I dont' want to take a bath now." "The water is going to be turned off later, and I need you to take a bath before X because of Y (which might be that I don't want people to think I'm not taking care of her properly). How are we going to work this out?" And we do work it out. Usually, when I explain where I'm at, she would just take a bath or whatever needs to be done. Or she'd come up with an alternative. I don't always prefer the alternative to my way, but if it's workable I go with it.
mamazee is offline  
#157 of 164 Old 06-20-2010, 11:53 PM
 
coffeegirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: a glaxy far, far away
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
I'm not willing to accept that there were no other possibilities. There are almost always other possibilities. Then a bath right away after the water gets turned back on, or a sponge bath right away and a full bath after the water gets turned back on. I think where a child's bodily autonomy is involved, it's important to keep working until you find a solution that is acceptable to them.
But what happens if none of the options offered are acceptable to the child? What if it's become a struggle of the wills or over who has control and the child is just insisting that she doesn't want a bath at all? (I'm not just being random, btw...I've seen this kind of thing happen.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
I didn't say anything about forgoing desires. I said that this is in regard to issues of bodily autonomy only. I don't work as hard on finding consensual agreements on every other issue. But issues of bodily autonomy are a big deal to me. My kids own their bodies and get to ultimately decide what happens to them. If something is important to me, such as that they take a bath, I explain how I feel, which is never that I'd be embarrassed to be with them but has been that I don't want people to think I don't take proper care of them, and I work with them. Well the older one as the other one is a young toddler. But I work with her and we talk about it. "I dont' want to take a bath now." "The water is going to be turned off later, and I need you to take a bath before X because of Y (which might be that I don't want people to think I'm not taking care of her properly). How are we going to work this out?" And we do work it out. Usually, when I explain where I'm at, she would just take a bath or whatever needs to be done. Or she'd come up with an alternative. I don't always prefer the alternative to my way, but if it's workable I go with it.
To continue my train of thought from the first quote...What if there is no workable alternative that you or she is able to come up with? What if they just say "no" and that's it-- no amount of negotiation or choices offered are acceptable to the child. Like I said, I've seen situations like this in my own family. One time, it was even over taking a bath- just like the OP.

In other words, I understand that you value your child's autonomy, but to what extent will you take that? Sometimes kids will just flat-out refuse and dig in their heels, you know?

caffix.gif
coffeegirl is offline  
#158 of 164 Old 06-21-2010, 10:14 AM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I take it on a case-by-case basis, but I find it doesn't come up that often if I really put an effort into finding something that works for both of us, and if my dd trusts that I will do that. But, on the occasions where we aren't able to come to an agreement, sometimes I do force things, sometimes I let things slide until later, depending on how important it is. A one-time bath issue isn't that important, so I'd probably let that slide if it came to it, but I think we'd probably be able to find some kind of agreement.
mamazee is offline  
#159 of 164 Old 06-21-2010, 12:19 PM
 
PennyRoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The ocean state
Posts: 684
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelmendi View Post
I actually think that telling a child they won't get a treat unless they bathe is less manipulative then tricking them into washing themselves by splashing in buckets.

My mother is very interested in non-violent communication and such, and honestly, it has always seemed very, very manipulative to me. If someone wants something from me, I want them to say it outright, and if they don't accept my 'no' I want them to say that outright too, not try to trick me into doing what they wanted me to do.
I'm chiming into this discussion quite late, but I did lurk my way thru the whole thread. It's so interesting to see such an array of different GD perspectives. I found myself really wanting to comment on the above quote, from a conflict resolution practitioner's perspective (and as mama of a 7 year old ).

The whole premise behind conflict resolution theory is to find a mutually acceptable resolution to a conflict. This is what many of the parents on this thread are talking about - even if they aren't using those terms. Brainstorming options to find out a resolution that works to get everybody's needs met does work most of the time, whether you are talking about a conflict in a workplace, an international dispute, or a 7 year old who does not want to take a bath. The key is to figure out what everyone really *wants* (their interests) behind what they are *saying* they want (their positions). Many mamas on this thread have advocated asking *why* the OP's DD objected to the bath. What need was she seeking to meet by objecting? Was she tired? Was she looking for fun and the bath did not meet that need? Did she just want some say in what she got to do? It's hard to talk about what options might have met her needs without knowing more about what they were - to find that out, you'd have to ask the DD!

My own 7 YO DD is a soccer-playin', tree-climbin', rough and tumble kiddo. She's not big on hygeine either (and in fact, recently yelled, in response to my request that she shower following a soccer game, "whoever invented cleanliness ought to be arrested!") and these kinds of issues crop up frequently for us. When it happens I try to find out what's going on for her. Often I find out her objection is that in her mind, stopping the business of life to get clean is just not FUN. And having fun is a legitimate need, especially for kids!

So we try to find ways to make things fun. Often I read to her while she showers. Sometimes we pretend she's in a spa and I talk in a funny accent and pretend I'm offering her all these services. Sometimes I'm OK with her doing a "rinsie tub" where she stands in the tub while it's running and runs a quick washcloth all over her body, then throws on a baseball hat to hide grubby hair. Is this manipulative? I guess it depends on how you define the word. I was often told that picking up my baby when she cried was a poor response to her trying to manipulate me. If by "manipulate" you mean we are trying to have some say in a situation to get what we want, then sure, it is. And I don't see why that's a bad thing, if everyone is happy.

[When my DH is looking for some lovin', I notice he tries to "maniuplate" me, too - he might offer to take the dog for his nightly walk (usually my job), might set up the coffee pot on automatic brew (usually my job), might sit close to me and rub my shoulders, or might try to chat with me instead of picking up the clicker and getting absorbed in "Extreme Catch."]

So, is chasing a toddler around with a wet cloth to inspire giggles in lieu of an actual tub manipulative? Maybe, but if my need to have my toddler clean is met, while she has fun in the bargain, so much the better.

OP, I would also reccommend a book that I *love* - I'm sorry I can't think of the co-authors' names right at this moment - it is "Respectful Parents/Respectful Kids." It definitely draws on the non violent communication the poster I quoted above was objecting to, but I think it's fabulous, and would add it to the mix of great titles already mentioned here.

Finally, I too, think you are doing a great job as a parent. You obviously care tremendously about your relationship with your DD, and you are recognizing the challenges in parenting her and are seeking to figure out how to handle them better. I think that's all we can ask of ourselves as parents!

Mama to 2 mopheaded rascals
PennyRoo is offline  
#160 of 164 Old 06-22-2010, 03:23 PM
 
buttercup784ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post
I didn't say anything about forgoing desires. I said that this is in regard to issues of bodily autonomy only. I don't work as hard on finding consensual agreements on every other issue. But issues of bodily autonomy are a big deal to me. My kids own their bodies and get to ultimately decide what happens to them. If something is important to me, such as that they take a bath, I explain how I feel, which is never that I'd be embarrassed to be with them but has been that I don't want people to think I don't take proper care of them, and I work with them. Well the older one as the other one is a young toddler. But I work with her and we talk about it. "I dont' want to take a bath now." "The water is going to be turned off later, and I need you to take a bath before X because of Y (which might be that I don't want people to think I'm not taking care of her properly). How are we going to work this out?" And we do work it out. Usually, when I explain where I'm at, she would just take a bath or whatever needs to be done. Or she'd come up with an alternative. I don't always prefer the alternative to my way, but if it's workable I go with it.
I love the distinction you make here. What you do is describe the emotion of embarrassment, not wanting people to think you don't take proper care of your children, and then act shocked when I simply say the word embarrassed to my kids? Would it help if I said that I would explain to my kids WHY it would be embarrassing for me? Because in fact I give the same reason you do only that feeling I would label "embarassment".

I have no problem working out different solutions to problems with my kids, but I feel like you are being a little judgemental based on your level of comfort. You say in your answer above that you don't work as hard to be consensual on other issues. Maybe one of those issues is something I would care less about. But I'm not telling you to change your priorities.

Personally, I think cleanliness and general neatness is important and something that is learned. Would I make it a huge fight all the time if my child refused to bathe...no, like you I would find a workable solution that would cause the least amount of resistance. But I also think that sometimes if the kid loses out on something because they just don't want to bathe, that's ok too. It's their choice how they want to deal with the situation, but I'm not a slave to their decision!

I wanted to ask, how do you handle a situation like toothbrushing? Some kids just don't want anything in their mouths. Would that be something you would force? Not physically, of course, but if you exhausted all strategies for finding a way the child would accept.
buttercup784ever is offline  
#161 of 164 Old 06-22-2010, 04:48 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'm not telling people what their priorities should be, just stating my priorities. And I do see a distinction between "I dont' want people to think badly of me" and "I'd be embarrassed by you", but if you don't, that's cool. We can do things differently and have different opinions about this.

When toothbrushing was an issue, I took my dd out and had her choose whatever fancy toothbrush she wanted, which she thought was great fun and got her brushing, but I am lucky to have the financial ability to do things like that and I understand other people might not.
mamazee is offline  
#162 of 164 Old 06-22-2010, 04:59 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Oh, and what I've had to force is mainly getting my dd together to get on the school bus on time. Like, get on your shoes right this second. So we all have our own issues we deal with, and I'm certainly not perfect and haven't found an answer to that problem. If I've come off as judgmental, it wasn't my intention, and I apologize.
mamazee is offline  
#163 of 164 Old 06-22-2010, 05:25 PM
 
buttercup784ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 190
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I guess it's how you picture it in your mind as well. I mean, if you picture me as Mommie Dearest screaming at my child that she's an embarrassment, yeah I'd agree that was wrong. But your explanation of your feelings is exactly how I feel, and I don't see any problem in telling my kid's that their dirty condition embarrasses me.

I felt it was judgemental only because you sort of made it seem like because control over their own body's is important to you that it should be important to everyone. Unfortunately, I see the results of that, like I said before. I do medical testing on kids, and they don't always have a say over what's happening to their bodies. I think the kids that have complete control over their own body's would be much more traumatized by a forced medical procedure than one who is at least somewhat used to a parent making them do some things they may not like.

I think you were very lucky with the toothbrushing only because I know kids that wouldn't have been persuaded by fun toothpaste, and you might have had to then make the choice of forcing a child to do something or dealing with the consequences of rotten teeth.
buttercup784ever is offline  
#164 of 164 Old 06-22-2010, 05:32 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I was inspired much more from baggage from my mom than anything specific from you.

Also, maybe we should take this to PM if we want to talk more, as I'm afraid this thread is getting way off topic.
mamazee is offline  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off