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#61 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 01:31 PM
 
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Thats a really unfortuneate situation you were in Brandywine.!

If I had made up my mind to leave the group.......I would have said something to the mother in question. were there other mothers who felt the same as you? Because sometimes if you present as a group, that has more affect than just one new member complaining about something. Just another example where we feel we cant complain and feel uneasy about doing so for fear of what that persons reaction will be.
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#62 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 01:51 PM
 
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akirasmama
What wonderfully thoughtful posts....
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.


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#63 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 02:25 PM
 
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To those asking why we feel it's okay to rag on these moms and not tell them to their face (kindly, of course):

I have said something. Many, many times. I've had tons of discussions with one friend over the past four years because she ignores her child and lets her do whatever she wants. I cannot count the number of times her child has pushed my dd head-first into the concrete, taken her toys, hit her, and generally aggrevated my dd to no end.

Her response? "Oh, I've never noticed that! Please, if you see it happening, say something!"

So I say something. For example: my dd is playing on a "pillow bridge" that she built and her "friend" feels like teasing her. So she sits on the bridge and refuses to move, laughing as my dd gets more and more upset. Mom: "L, you get off of there right now." "Okay, L, you have until the count of three... one, two, three!" "Okay, L, I said move..." After literally five minutes of this crap, as my dd screamed hysterically, my mom friend laughed and said, "Oh, just let them work it out for themselves."

Moms like this teach blatant disrespect. And it doesn't matter what you say to them; they are in denial and don't want to see it. I'm sorry if my observation seems like "ragging", but I've watched this child - and others her age - get older and no one can stand to be around them. NO ONE. If observations make me judgmental of others, than so be it

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#64 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 02:29 PM
 
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Why didn't you pick up YOUR child, and remove her, and THEN deal with the situation?

I'm curious, and please read the tone as such.

As an outside observer, it seems like you were angry because your daughter got hurt/upset.

I understand that this is a pattern, but I'm having a hard time differentiating between the mom of the agressor, allowing her child to continue being an agressor, and the mom of the victim allowing her child to continue to be victimized?

Neither one is stepping in...

He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe is as good as dead; his eyes are closed.  ~Albert Einstein
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#65 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I would never force my child to share or go home. That feels like punishment to me. I don't make him share, period
It's not about (to me anyway) *forcing* a child to share, but strongly encouraging it, and if they don't want to share that day we're better off playing at home where they don't have to.

My feeling has always been that in a public place, the toys there are there for everyone, the swings are for everyone, the slide is for everyone. When we go to these places we go to play with and share with others. That's why we go. If my kids refuse to share, to get off the swing when someone else wants a turn or whatever, yes I'd take them home, not so much as a punishment but b/c that's why we went in the first place! To interact with the other kids and play cooperatively. If they don't want to be doing that, they may just as well have stayed home and played on their own swingset, or with their own toys which they are free to monopolize as they wish (they don't have many toys they both like to use).
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#66 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 03:01 PM
 
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Originally posted by Leonor
Ok, what is with that park in the first place that only has 1 (one) swing?
You know, when I was posting that swing example, I was wondering when someone was going to notice that.

It doesn't have one swing; it was just an example! I could have used other real-life examples but this one was simplest.

I don't think the child on the swing should immediately give it up, of course not. But I do think that when another person is waiting for a turn, a child shouldn't be allowed to "hog" something as long as she wants. The restaurant example that was given fits well - if I saw a long line of people waiting for tables at the door, I wouldn't linger too long after my coffee. I think that's just simple consideration.

I have actually been in situations where I stopped a mom from making her child give up his turn too soon. For example, my daughter comes up to a thing at the children's museum right after another child, and the other mom tells her child to give DD a turn now. I'll say, "That's okay, he just got here, she can wait for him to be done with his turn."

And Leonor, you asked why I don't say anything to the mom when a kid won't give up her turn...I do say something, but usually to the child, not the mom. I might say, "Hi, my daughter's been waiting for a while for that. Would you mind giving her a turn, please?" It's amazing how that often works well, and how relieved the mom looks that I took care of it for her...:
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#67 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 03:17 PM
 
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Hey, can we talk about sharing/ turn taking over here?
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hreadid=130183

He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe is as good as dead; his eyes are closed.  ~Albert Einstein
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#68 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 04:08 PM
 
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So, what is an appropriate time for one child to be on the swing when others are waiting? Five minutes? That is a long time for the children who are waiting. Two minutes? Not really long enough to swing.

What if you let your dc have the swing for five minutes because someone else is waiting, and then that child refuses to give up the swing after five minutes (and his mom won't make him, either!)? Then what does your child learn - that she has to treat people in a certain way, but they don't have to give her the same treatment? My child is not old enough for "well that's the harsh reality of life, you get screwed over sometimes, now get over it" messages.

When I'm using a public restroom, pay phone or parking space, I'm entitled to all the time I need, even if people are waiting. The amount of time one adult needs in the bathroom will be different than what another adult needs. One phone conversation may be a different length than another one. One child's time with a toy may be different than the amount of time another child needs.

But, if it's a public place with group toys, I do try and encourage a little bit of sharing. If dd can't handle it we go to another park with fewer children. I don't take her there to socialize, I take her because she likes to climb on the equipment. I am fortunate enough to live in a small town with several parks.

If it's a child's own personal things, I don't expect anyone to share. Last time we were at the park there was a boy with a huge pile of sand toys all to himself. DD tried to grab one. I told her, "No, those are his. We don't grab other peoples' stuff." It didnt' matter that he had enough to share - why should he? If some stranger decided that while I was at the park he was going to sit in my car, I would not be spouting a happy message of sharing one's belongings.

But I agree with the OP; I can't stand it when other parents don't do anything about their kids' behavior even when it violates the rights of others. I've had to leave public places because kids were climbing on me and trying to take things from me and their parents would not stop them. It's not really fair that I'm the one who has to go when I was just minding my own business, but what else can I do? I haven't been able to make the leap into physically disciplining another's child (and I don't mean spanking, I mean just picking him up and putting him near his mother)!
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#69 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 05:29 PM
 
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Why didn't you pick up YOUR child, and remove her, and THEN deal with the situation?

Ive witnessed this scene many, many, many times.........and sometimes the victim child is removed, simply cos her mom has waited, given the other child the benefit of the doubt, waiting for the other parent to step in......BECAUSE FRANKLY, the aggressor should be removed, the aggressor should be watched by his own parent, the aggressor should have to leave.....thats what happens to adults who cant behave in public places, they are asked to leave, they are reprimanded or spoken to by people of authority or people sharing the space that are being bothered by said person. And usually, the parent of the aggressive child is paying NO ATTENTION to this child.....which is why this child is acting out in the first place (or one reason anyway).

If you know your child can play roughly sometimes, has moments of aggression, cant share toys, or has issues with needing your attention and finding negative ways to get it.........why cant you pay attention to your child so others dont have to be subjected to it......b/c at age 2 or 3, sorry, kids arent old enought to "work it out". If my child had this disposition, I would either stay home with them ...... or keep a sharp eye out and be ready to intervene so other people wouldnt have to leave or feel they needed to say something to me to get my attention.

sorry, JMHO........again.
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#70 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 05:33 PM
 
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Originally posted by Greaseball
What if you let your dc have the swing for five minutes because someone else is waiting, and then that child refuses to give up the swing after five minutes (and his mom won't make him, either!)?
ITA with most everything you said, Greaseball, but just wanted to comment on the "harsh realities of life" segment. I think that when your child is respectful of another child and that child is not respectful back, it's life's way of teaching your child that he/she can only control his/her own behavior. That happens to us sometimes because ds is one of those kids that loves to share and seems to get joy out of giving other kids their turn. With the swing example, I tell ds that I'm very sorry but it doesn't look like the other child is ready to give the swing up. And I sympathize with him: "You would really like to go on the swing, I know. You're upset that this child doesn't want to give the swing up. It's frustrating when people don't give you a turn when you would like." If he's open to it, I suggest we do something else until the swing is free. If not, I continue to sympathize and give him the support he needs to get through the disappointment. There's no, "Hey kid, life's tough. Get over it." That wouldn't be respectful of his feelings. The lesson takes care of itself. But knowing that the lesson is lurking out there waiting to rear it's ugly head isn't reason, in and of itself, to not suggest sharing. (Note I say encourage, not force. I don't think forcing sharing is ever proper. But with ds, I only ever have to suggest and he does it with gusto.)

That said, I'm with you and akirasmom. I don't force ds to share and I don't force him to get off a swing if he's not ready. (Of course, we're also lucky in that most of our local parks have a good number of swings so it doesn't happen too often that they're all full). I model sharing and turn-taking and try to model waiting patiently (though not always successfully), and when he's in a situation that might call for turn-taking, I've noticed that he's always one of the first to institute the turn-taking protocol on his own.

It's been my experience that children who are forced to share when their parents are lurking are least likely to do it on their own.

Man... that post was all over the map. :LOL
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#71 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 05:41 PM
 
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I completely agree with you, rainsmom. Parents SHOULD watch their aggressive children. But they don't always.... I think that's where this conversation is hitting some bumps. The people who are suggesting that the victim take action or leave are looking at the reality of the situation, while those wanting the aggressor's parent to do something are, unfortunately, looking at the ideal.

FWIW, I've found it's often helpful to say something to the aggressor myself - whether his/her parent is in earshot or not. There have been a few times when ds has been threatened by a bully on the playground and I've stood up for him because the bully's parents are sitting on their lazy, oblivious rumps. IMO, this isn't meddling in someone else's affairs or parenting someone else's child. It's advocating for my ds - showing him that he is worth advocating for and, so, empowering him. Usually, a very sharp, loud, "Ds, you can tell him, "STOP PUSHING ME! IT'S MEAN AND I DON'T LIKE THAT!" serves the purposes of a) letting my ds know what he needs to say in such situations, b) letting the bully know that he's being watched so he better straighten up and c) alerting the bully's parents that their child is being a PITA. If that doesn't work, I speak directly to the aggressor as I would my own child. And since I speak to my child respectfully, the shock value of being spoken to that way is often enough to stop the aggressor from continuing the behavior.
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#72 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 05:45 PM
 
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ITA Dragonfly......Im preaching to the choir to some........and trying to understand where others are coming from in their rationale.


Of course, the reality is we parents of dc's who end up being bullied....have to step in, have to watch constantly and have to leave when the parent of the aggressor does nothing, or isnt watching or thinks the kids can work it out.
Thats what we do too.

Im just stating the obvious......wouldnt it be nice if the other parent took action? Or at least watched what their dc's were doing??
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#73 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 06:01 PM
 
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Originally posted by EllieB
It's not about (to me anyway) *forcing* a child to share, but strongly encouraging it, and if they don't want to share that day we're better off playing at home where they don't have to.

My feeling has always been that in a public place, the toys there are there for everyone, the swings are for everyone, the slide is for everyone. When we go to these places we go to play with and share with others. That's why we go. If my kids refuse to share, to get off the swing when someone else wants a turn or whatever, yes I'd take them home, not so much as a punishment but b/c that's why we went in the first place! To interact with the other kids and play cooperatively. If they don't want to be doing that, they may just as well have stayed home and played on their own swingset, or with their own toys which they are free to monopolize as they wish (they don't have many toys they both like to use).

~Joan, Happy mom to 2 beautiful kiddos, one new puppy and 2 lovely felines
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#74 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 06:06 PM
 
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Originally posted by rainsmom
Im just stating the obvious......wouldnt it be nice if the other parent took action? Or at least watched what their dc's were doing??
It would be WONDERFUL. Fortunately, we don't run into too many situations around here where children are behaving aggressively. (Usually, it's the parents behaving rudely - driving like maniacs, not holding doors or not saying thank you when my sweet little 3-year-old uses all of his strength to hold the door for them, the list goes on...). At the playground, we're more likely to run into situations where parents are all over their children, micro-managing their every move, not allowing them to be kids.

But when we do encounter the other, the only way I've found to alleviate my own frustration with the situation is to look at it as an opportunity to teach and empower my own child. I find that if I keep that goal in mind (though it's sometimes very difficult because what I really want to do is kick the parent in the shin :LOL), I can quite often turn what would be a really negative experience into a positive one and we come out of it all the better.
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#75 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 06:09 PM
 
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Originally posted by EllieB
It's not about (to me anyway) *forcing* a child to share, but strongly encouraging it, and if they don't want to share that day we're better off playing at home where they don't have to.
With all due respect, EllieB, I think this is a distinction without a difference. Maybe you're not taking the toy out of their hands and forcing them to hand it over, but you're telling them (by making them leave) that they are absolutely required to share or they will not be allowed to play there.

BTW, I'm not condemning this as a parenting practice. You do what works for you, right? I just think it's important to recognize that the end result is pretty much the same.
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#76 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 06:13 PM
 
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I know some moms who have had to deal this alot more than I have....usually Im witnessing it happening to other dcs.

But one good thing HAS come of these experiences........dd has learned to use her words and alot of times SHE handles the situation before I step in. Not always, but alot of times.

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#77 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 08:11 PM
 
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FWIW I never said I expected this to not be a vent thread. My whole point in all of this is that the mothers in the original example were not doing nothing, they were doing something that doesn't work well. I think, from the sound of it, that they were trying to follow their interpretation of gentle discipline. They are likely moms who might come here and see how some of the more experienced moms think of them: stupid, lazy, inept, fat, piggy, oblivious, ineffective, etc.

I am sometimes oblivioius to stuff dd is doing because I am so happy to be having a converstion with another adult. Or I have different value judgements about what is going on or I am not having a good day or whatever. A PP listed a bunch of reasons why a child might not be sharing that day. All things to consider. I am only saying, please give other moms the benefit of the doubt. That's all. The driver that cuts you off in traffic could just be a selfish @**hole, or could be someone responding to an emergency. You just never know. You never know why someone else is doing something or where they are coming from. You are not in their skin or their head.

I understand people have a huge problem with parents of aggressors not reigning them in. I have a problem with using words like the above for other people when their situation is not known. The world is full of jerks, but it is also full of good people trying to their best with what they have and who may not be having a good day, or whatever.

I *know* you all are not talking about me. I hear you. I knew that before anything was said by either of us. I am trying to let you know that you could be talking about me and not realize it.

SMC to Sophia, age 15, and Eleanor, age 9, and mother hen to too many nursing students to count!

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#78 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 08:15 PM
 
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Point taken!


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#79 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 10:07 PM
 
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Ok, I jumped in on this thread way too late so I apologize that I haven't read every single post and I may be repeating what someone else said.

The situation that the OP stated - way irritating. I think talking and using words is great but it's never appropriate to get into a long winded (usually one sided) discussion with a young child. They need things more brief and simple or it's just lost on them. That kind of parenting is what they called Permissive when I took Child Development. Also, from the studies done, children who were raised wth Authoritarian Parents (this doesn't usually involve children in decision making, usually includes yelling, spanking etc.) had better outcomes than the children of Permissive parents. This is not to say Authoritarian parenting is good or ok, but just to make a point about how not being consistent, not setting any limits or boundries, not ever following through with natural consequences etc. is not good for children. They're trying to feel out the world around them and if it can be really scary for them if the parent isn't guiding them properly. That's usually why you'll find children who are parented as such just keep escalating their behavior. They're trying to find 'where does it end?' 'when do I get stopped?' That's why children test the limits and boundries. They do indeed want (and need) to find them. Also, parents like this are doing their children no favors. Children do need to know about the "real world." When people don't like what you're doing to them, they're going to get upset. When you take something from someone or hurt someone, they're not going to like it and they're going to react. Ok, I'm really rambling here - am I making any sense?
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#80 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 10:24 PM
 
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If my child had this disposition, I would either stay home with them ...... or keep a sharp eye out and be ready to intervene so other people wouldnt have to leave or feel they needed to say something to me to get my attention.
This would live some parents completely housebound... For example, like a mom with a new baby, and an "agressive" older child.

I know that in the best of all world's the agressor would get removed, but I'm having a hard time understanding why you don't remove your child from harm's way, and address the behavior with the parent and or child, while keeping your child safe? It seems, from some of the posts, that you give the agressor the "benefit of the doubt" and then you're angry when your child continues to be hurt? You only say something when you hit your boiling point?

I'm just having a hard time understanding this!

Maybe I'm misreading?

He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe is as good as dead; his eyes are closed.  ~Albert Einstein
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#81 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 10:31 PM
 
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Sometimes being housebound is necessary. If dd doesn't behave reasonably in a public place, we just don't go. I haven't taken her to the grocery store in over a year.

She used to have a problem with pulling on other kids' eyelids. She was only 7 months, so I couldn't really reason with her. I just had to stop taking her places with other kids around, unless she would be happy to just be held.

Now her thing is to scream at other kids if they get within a certain distance of her. If she does that, I'll step in once, but if she does it again, we go home.

I can see how this wouldn't work for single parents, though.
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#82 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 10:34 PM
 
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OK, I'm going to bow out.


He who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe is as good as dead; his eyes are closed.  ~Albert Einstein
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#83 of 141 Old 04-01-2004, 10:59 PM
 
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A child takes a toy away from my dd. The mom, seeing this, launches into a long discussion about this not being ok, let's give it back, do you want me to help you give it back, etc. End result, the kid doesn't give it back and my dd is upset. If my kid takes something from another kid, I will first ask her nicely to give it back, then tell her if she cannot play nicely we can't stay (these aren't personally owned toys). And if she won't give it back, I take it from her and give it back myself!
I haven't read any of the replies, but I want to say that I have had this exact same problem, and it bugs me. It ends up meaning that my ds always has to give it back, but never gets it back, which I don't think is fair.

The only thing in your post that I disagreed with is that we immediately leave if he hits someone. If he continues to hit (which has never happened), we would leave. But not if it just happened one time.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I too have had problems with people who don't force their kids to give the toy back that was snatched from ds, and it really irks me.
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#84 of 141 Old 04-02-2004, 12:26 AM
 
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My point here is, I have said something. Many times. Very respectfully.

If you read my other post, you will see that I gave this mom and her daughter the benefit of the doubt after MANY discussions about this issue. She still chose non-action.

Do I remove my own child out of my own house?

Perhaps kick the "offending" duo out of my house?

Or, at that point, do I step in and discipline someone else's child?

None of them seem like the right answer. There comes a time when you realize that some people just don't "get it" and they don't want to. This particular mom can be very disrespectful of others, so I can definitely see why she thinks it's an okay behavior. It's just sad she's passing that trait on to her children.
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#85 of 141 Old 04-02-2004, 03:52 AM
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Also, from the studies done, children who were raised wth Authoritarian Parents (this doesn't usually involve children in decision making, usually includes yelling, spanking etc.) had better outcomes than the children of Permissive parents.
Be careful with these studies, they are not very scientific or accurate. My experience says the oppositte.

I had very authotitarian parents in my teens - not violent but very consistent and boundary - and I don't want to go into details, but I almost lost my life.

Friends that had permissive parents in their teens enjoyed their lives, are now doing alright, and many have their own businesses already in their mid twenties!

I don't think it's about permissivness or authotiry, not even balance bettween the two, it's about helping. A parent should be a helper, not a random rule maker.
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#86 of 141 Old 04-02-2004, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
 
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originally posted by Dragonfly:
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With all due respect, EllieB, I think this is a distinction without a difference. Maybe you're not taking the toy out of their hands and forcing them to hand it over, but you're telling them (by making them leave) that they are absolutely required to share or they will not be allowed to play there.
I do see a difference between forcing a child to share and encouraging them to share with the implication that we will have to leave otherwise. The difference is in the attitude I approach the situation with.

I do not approach it with an attitude of "You will share or we are leaving". My attitude is "Well if you don't want to play with the other kids today lets go play at home". I don't feel angry at them for not wanting to share, I think that's completely natural, especially for kids as young as mine. But at the same time, public places necessiate (in my mind) a cooperative, inclusive spirit so everyone (not just my kids) can enjoy themselves. If my kids don't feel cooperative and don't want to do the give and take to make the experience enjoyable for all, we go home and they can play independently there. And that's perfectly ok in my mind, maybe they just need some downtime. So that's how I see it- the difference between forcing and strongly encouraging is in the attitude I have when I do it, that it's ok and normal to want to play alone and monopolize something, but not in a place meant to be shared by all.
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#87 of 141 Old 04-02-2004, 10:00 AM
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Studies seem to indicate that neither authoritarian nor permissive parenting has the best outcomes but rather a more moderate authoritative parenting style in which the parent is in authority but considers the feelings and perspective of the children.

Again it's balance.

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#88 of 141 Old 04-02-2004, 12:54 PM
 
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Yes, they called it Democratic Parenting that was the best. It's probably equivalent to GD.
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#89 of 141 Old 04-02-2004, 01:54 PM
 
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Yes, there is a difference between authoritarian and authoritative. Authoritarian is not democratic at all - it's more of a dictatorship. Authoritative parents make it clear that they set the rules and limits and expect children to follow them, but they are fair and respectful and considerate of the child's feelings.

Just wanted to clear that up.
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#90 of 141 Old 04-02-2004, 04:36 PM
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I thought that in a democracy people voted to chose a leader and the majority won.
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