Spanking vs. violence. - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-09-2011, 11:36 PM
 
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I thought your point was that spanking was "ew".  Sorry.

 

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No kidding.  That was my point.

 

 



 

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Old 06-09-2011, 11:37 PM
 
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Not to prove you wrong. To bring attention to what the Bible really says.

 

You, yourself said that you don't remember much of the Bible, and I'm assuming that you are/were a Christian. I'm pretty sure that most people would have to look up scripture in order to properly quote it, no matter what their faith.

 

It's not hard. They can all be found in one place. I've debated about theology enough over the years to know where much of the dirt lies.

 

 

 



Oh good...I was getting a little paranoid there. winky.gif

 


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Old 06-09-2011, 11:38 PM
 
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I think she did if you'll look back to her earlier posts about safety within this thread?

But I really think we will all have to agree to disagreee on this because to her necessary is not to you necessary, am I right?

 

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Can you give an example of when a spanking is necessary and could not have been dealt with in any other way?
 



 

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Old 06-09-2011, 11:41 PM
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I'm really disheartened that there are people who are defending spanking on the GENTLE DISCIPLINE board on mothering.com. I'm even more bothered by the fact that the posts that are advocating spanking are still here.

 

The Terms of Service say:

 

 


Well...has anyone reported the offensive posts? The mods don't read every single post.

 

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Old 06-09-2011, 11:49 PM
 
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I apologize for saying necessary, there are always other ways of dealing with a thing, but my uncle effectively and permanently impressed upon his child that running at moving vehicles was an absolutely unacceptable action that would have gotten her killed.

 

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Can you give an example of when a spanking is necessary and could not have been dealt with in any other way?
 



 


Signatures are sooo mainstream.

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Old 06-10-2011, 12:36 AM
 
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Another reason is that consistency is key.  You mentioned that his older sister does get spanked still...is that something he is aware of?  could it be that he equates that with a sign of your love and devotion for her and so he wonders why he doesn't get the same treatment and maybe he thinks it's because you think he is too bad to respond to it?  I am just trying to think of why you have different techniques for two kids in the same house at the same time. 

 


I'm off to bed, so I just pulled this part. I seem to have posted something confusing again. I don't spank any of my kids. I haven't spanked ds1 in 12 or 13 years, and I haven't' ever spanked dd1 (hit her the time she pulled ds2's hair, and that's it). I don't spank ds2, either. And, I obviously don't spank dd2 - she's just a toddler.

 


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Old 06-10-2011, 05:16 AM
 
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I'm off to bed, so I just pulled this part. I seem to have posted something confusing again. I don't spank any of my kids. I haven't spanked ds1 in 12 or 13 years, and I haven't' ever spanked dd1 (hit her the time she pulled ds2's hair, and that's it). I don't spank ds2, either. And, I obviously don't spank dd2 - she's just a toddler.

 



ahhh okay.  misread that then.  That makes more sense.

 

eta: 

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 In the meantime, ds2 isn't being hit - but dd1 is.


 


Just so you know I wasn't taking it out thin air.  What did you mean to say?


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Old 06-10-2011, 05:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dacks View Post

I apologize for saying necessary, there are always other ways of dealing with a thing, but my uncle effectively and permanently impressed upon his child that running at moving vehicles was an absolutely unacceptable action that would have gotten her killed.

 



 



That's all I've been trying to say.  It's not necessary.  There are lots and lots of ways of doing the same job without using a swat.  A swat may be faster, but it's not the only option.  That's all the GD board has ever been about at its core. 

 


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Old 06-10-2011, 05:46 AM
 
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I eat meat...if I could I would hunt. IDK it seems so natural to me to eat meat. However I am against the industrialization of meat. I get my meat from a local farm that practices a fast kill and stuns the animal so he doesn't feel it. They really take care of the animals and they are free ranging pastured animals.

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I had a feeling when I asked that that someone would it take it here, lol.

I wrote that I was asking genuinely because I was......asking genuinely.  I am trying to understand the whole non-violence argument.  I will admit that I find humorous that violence for some ends at animals, but I'm not going to judge you for it so you don't need to put words in my brain or spell out my motives before you give me a chance to explain them.

I guess I do feel like if you have a general sense of violence as a very fluid thing, just any generally oppressive action then to me that train of thought pulls into extending that respect for all living creatures but if it doesn't for you and you can seperate the two then great, you are just making my point for me.  If some people don't see violence towards or te killing of animals aqs a non-violence issue then it stands to PERFECT reason that some people, myself not included, might reasonably exclude spanking from their own list non-violence issues.  period done.

 



 



 


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Old 06-10-2011, 05:52 AM
 
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UMMM seriously? WHAT does that have to do with it not being violent? There are people who get turned on by circ too and it has to be a really tight circ with a dark scar. There are people who get turned on by rape too but well if they like it sooooooo much it must not be violent then right?

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I didn't say they did say they felt loved by it.  And the friend is an adult, I said it was anecdotal, but I wanted to share because there actually are multitude of people in the world who like to spanked and I know my friend would not say that it's violent, I kinda tickled just typing that because she likes it soooo much.

 



 



 


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Old 06-10-2011, 06:26 AM
 
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I've been surprised by people saying the act of spanking, which is a physical blow to some degree or another, isn't a violent act, and now I'm surprised to see people saying it can be necessary. Running into the road is a supervision issue, not a discipline issue. You don't spank a 2-year-old and then let them play unsupervised next to the street, because they're too young to understand regardless of whether they were spanked or not. At some age they're old enough to understand it, but then they'll understand, spanked or not.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:38 AM
 
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I really can't see how spanking could be considered non violent. The intention is to hurt the child in order for him not to forget that whatever he did was wrong. I am going to put a quote here that I consider a one of the best things I have ever read on non violence.

Nonviolence

Nonviolence belongs to a continuum from the personal to the global, and from the global to the personal. One of the most significant Buddhist interpretations of nonviolence concerns the application of this ideal to daily life. Nonviolence is not some exalted regimen that can be practiced only by a monk or a master; it also pertains to the way one interacts with a child, vacuums a carpet, or waits in line. Besides the more obvious forms of violence, whenever we separate ourselves from a given situation (for example, through inattentiveness, negative judgments, or impatience), we "kill" something valuable. However subtle it may be, such violence actually leaves victims in its wake: people, things, one's own composure, the moment itself. According to the Buddhist reckoning, these small-scale incidences of violence accumulate relentlessly, are multiplied on a social level, and become a source of the large-scale violence that can sweep down upon us so suddenly. . . . One need not wait until war is declared and bullets are flying to work for peace, Buddhism teaches. A more constant and equally urgent battle must be waged each day against the forces of one's own anger, carelessness, and self-absorption.

- Keneth Kraft, Inner Peace, World Peace

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Old 06-10-2011, 06:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dauphinette View Post

I think she did if you'll look back to her earlier posts about safety within this thread?

But I really think we will all have to agree to disagreee on this because to her necessary is not to you necessary, am I right?

 


I still don't fully understand what your argument is, so it is hard for me to know if I even disagree with you at all.  Can YOU think of any examples it which it would be necessary to spank someone...even Dacks admitted that it wasn't really NECESSARY, it was merely effective...no one has ever argued the immediate effectiveness of spanking...the question is, did she already know that running into the street was dangerous (had that topic really never ever come up before?  living where it sounds like they did I find it either dubious or irresponsibole if it hadn't.)?  Did her desire to be with her father over ride her knowledge of avoiding the danger of the road?  Did a smack really teach her not to run into the road, or did it teach her not to chase after her father?  Who can really say?  It was effective in that she was never hit by a car, yes, but was it effective in addressing the child's feelings of separation anxiety?  Was it effective in making the child feel loved and protected?  Was it effective in teaching the child important coping mechanisms for when she feels anxious and has the urge to fly into danger to meet the need behind that terrorizing emotion?  Big feelings that cause a child to choose emotional reactions over physical preservation don't just disappear because they learn to listen to mom and dad, do they?

 

Equally, a smack on the hand and a NO works to teach a child that they will get a smack if they try to electrocute themselves...it does not teach them that sockets have electricity and what electricity does.  There are other ways of teaching this that can also be effective, and until that time when they can learn that lesson keeping kids in arms and in arms reach or in a protected play space is probably the best bet if you can't child proof...now if you have no time (as I said up thread a dozen times) and you are over worked and busy and you need to teach a toddler to fend for themselves in an unchildproofed home and you either cannot afford to childproof, or you unable to, and you will be leaving a toddler alone in dangerous spaces for extended periods of time...then yes, smacking IS probably your best option depending on the kid (whether or not they will listen, my brother would have been all the more determined to stick his fingers in the socket).  But none of the people the OP is dealing with is in that situation, so it's not really helpful, to this discussion, which was pointed out to me earlier. 

 

ETA:  I am not so daft as to assume there are no people in the world who ever are stretched beyond their limits.  That doesn't make spanking a best choice option and handy a tool. 


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Old 06-10-2011, 06:53 AM
 
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I would never trust to leave a child who liked putting pennies in outlets alone around outlets no matter how many times they had been smacked or how severely. Does anyone really then trust a child around outlets? I question whether it's even effective, or whether parents figure out they have to watch better in addition to hitting their kids.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:58 AM
 
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I would never trust to leave a child who liked putting pennies in outlets alone around outlets no matter how many times they had been smacked or how severely. Does anyone really then trust a child around outlets? I question whether it's even effective, or whether parents figure out they have to watch better in addition to hitting their kids.
 

Exactly!  Was my ironic tone above not clear?


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Old 06-10-2011, 07:07 AM
 
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No, I coudn't tell, but it's hard to get tone on the internet. I didn't think that sounded like you.
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Old 06-10-2011, 07:24 AM
 
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No, I coudn't tell, but it's hard to get tone on the internet. I didn't think that sounded like you.



hmmmmm...I always forget people can't see my eyebrows when I type...and the emoticons always feel a little too emotive to make the subtle point I am going for. 

 

Okay, then to be clear, in post number 193, I was being ironic...no matter what the situation of your life, leaving a child to fend for themselves in an unsupervised dangerous area is not the best option...or necessary, or effective parenting, not even close.  Even if you have smacked their bottom or hands a thousand times and you are sure they get it.  It still doesn't make electric outlets safe for kids who are prone to putting pennies in them...you probably should hide the pennies, too, since a kid who puts pennies in outlets probably isn't too far off from trying to swallow them either.

 

ETA: This doesn't mean that our parents were bad unloving poor parents.  That doesn't mean there is no room for improvement or doing things better. 


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Old 06-10-2011, 07:30 AM
 
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Can I just say, when I'd tried multiple different socket protectors and my DS managed to figure them all out, I was tempted to try the swat on the hand thing. Nothing was working and he was getting into trouble even when he was arm's reach away from me, he was just so quick. I was afraid for his life.

So I can understand the temptation. I think we all do, I think almost every parent has reached that utter frustration/anger/fear level at some point. But there are other options. With the outlets, like a pp said, move furniture in front of them. Turn off the power to certain outlets, if possible. What we did was rewire all the outlets with internal safety shutters. We really didn't have the time or money to do that, but it made a whole lot more sense to me than hitting my child!

I don't know that I'd hand my child a pile of pennies if I knew he was going to stick them in outlets...

*sigh*

There are just so many other ways to deal with these situations.

I don't even know why some of these posts are up. It is painful for me to read people advocating and justifying hitting a child. I do think it's abuse. Obviously it's on one end of a spectrum and it's not the same thing as more extreme forms of abuse (and I've experienced all ends of the spectrum myself), and I don't necessarily blame parents if they know no other way -- many of us just do what we were taught to do, what people around us do, etc. But I really wish things could change on a society level. I don't understand why children from age 2-7 (or whatever the 'acceptable' age range to spank is eyesroll.gif) lack that basic right to physical safety that the whole rest of society is granted.

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Old 06-10-2011, 07:59 AM
 
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I had a woman from the church I grew up in (who is commended at how well behaved and successful her children grew up to be) "advise me" I was doing my DD an injustice in not spanking her....I asked what age she starts spanking and she replied "6 months". I nearly vomited. She is labeled successful as a parent b/c all her kids moved out at 18 and either got married right away or went to college. Everyone has their own opinion on when it is "acceptable" to hit a child (or never).

 

I don't understand why it became acceptable in the first place. I am "religious" and get told all the time I have to hit my child according to The Bible yet I have never seen any proof of that. The proverbs are referred to a lot..Yes I have read them. A rod was a stick used to guide sheep...If you spare the rod spoil the child and replace your interpretation of rod as a beating stick with guidance then it isn't about hitting is it? There is one about striking a child with the rod and leaving a bruise though and that one is kind of tricky research has led me to a few different things 1. it was against the law to strike a slave with the rod b/c it would kill him (so obviously it would kill a child) 2. you weren't considered a child until you were weaned (which was far from 1 y/o in those times) but nonetheless it is still a tricky one...this site has more info for people of religion using The Bible as an excuse to spank http://aolff.org/ and has a lot about scriptures and there meanings and literal interpretations.


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Old 06-10-2011, 08:23 AM
 
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This conversation reminded me of my extremely devout and VERY sweet friends (evangelical HSing Christians) who had THE nicest, friendly and sweet (and from all appearances, happy) kids.....they had this book and the only phrase that I remember from it was "to train up a child" - so I Googled that to see if it would lead me to the book. WOW. I don't know if this is the exact book that my friends used, but let me say again WOW

 

http://www.amazon.com/Train-Up-Child-Michael-Pearl/dp/1892112000

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Old 06-10-2011, 08:32 AM
 
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This has been hard for me lately. I don't know what to do when my SIL tells her two year old daughter that she is going to "bust her" for going near the street. She is only two and has never had any "behavior problems" anyway. What am I supposed to tell my son when he sees his aunt hitting her? It disgusts me! In my DH's family "spanking" is seen as so different than hitting. If I make an issue of it it will cause so much hostility towards me and not help my niece's case...A tough problem.

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Old 06-10-2011, 08:39 AM
 
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This conversation reminded me of my extremely devout and VERY sweet friends (evangelical HSing Christians) who had THE nicest, friendly and sweet (and from all appearances, happy) kids.....they had this book and the only phrase that I remember from it was "to train up a child" - so I Googled that to see if it would lead me to the book. WOW. I don't know if this is the exact book that my friends used, but let me say again WOW

 

http://www.amazon.com/Train-Up-Child-Michael-Pearl/dp/1892112000


I can't even read the reviews, I read the first sentence and nearly started bawling. How horrible.

For the record, we are extremely religious, devout Christians who strictly adhere to our Church's teachings... I don't believe God would want me to hurt this sweet child He has given to us. (I just don't want anyone to get the impression that all Christians are in favor of spanking or anything...)

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Old 06-10-2011, 09:19 AM
 
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Well...has anyone reported the offensive posts? The mods don't read every single post.

 


Yes, more than one of them. I'm really hoping that it's a matter of the mods being busy (I know that happens), or not really knowing where to begin in cleaning up the thread.

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ahhh okay.  misread that then.  That makes more sense.

 

eta: 


Just so you know I wasn't taking it out thin air.  What did you mean to say?


I think she's saying (Storm Bride, correct me if I'm wrong) that in the situation she's talking about, her dd was being hit by her ds.
 

 


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UMMM seriously? WHAT does that have to do with it not being violent? There are people who get turned on by circ too and it has to be a really tight circ with a dark scar. There are people who get turned on by rape too but well if they like it sooooooo much it must not be violent then right?

 

I think she made a good point actually, that not all spanking is violent. Spanking that is consensual is, imo, not violent. (circ'ing in most cases is not consensual, and rape is by definition not consensual).

That doesn't mean that I think the people who are saying spanking is violent are wrong (I'm not necessarily saying that they are right, either. It's sort of a semantics issue to me). They are obviously talking about spanking that involves a child, which means that it is not consensual.
 


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Old 06-10-2011, 09:52 AM
 
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I apologize for saying necessary, there are always other ways of dealing with a thing, but my uncle effectively and permanently impressed upon his child that running at moving vehicles was an absolutely unacceptable action that would have gotten her killed.

 

 

He did impress upon her that it was unacceptable, and that she might get hit if she were to do it again. However, I doubt she understood that she could have gotten killed. If she did have the cognitive ability to understand that, she wouldn't have had to be hit to refrain from running towards moving cars.


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Old 06-10-2011, 09:56 AM
 
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Quote:


I think she's saying (Storm Bride, correct me if I'm wrong) that in the situation she's talking about, her dd was being hit by her ds.
 



ahhhhhhhh...I get it.   dur


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Old 06-10-2011, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lady Love View Post

This has been hard for me lately. I don't know what to do when my SIL tells her two year old daughter that she is going to "bust her" for going near the street. She is only two and has never had any "behavior problems" anyway. What am I supposed to tell my son when he sees his aunt hitting her? It disgusts me! In my DH's family "spanking" is seen as so different than hitting. If I make an issue of it it will cause so much hostility towards me and not help my niece's case...A tough problem.



I feel your pain.  I just got a call this morning that my nephew had to be picked up from day-care because he was physically fighting and broke another child's Nintendo DS.  My mom had to go get him and pay $100 for the DS.  When she got there, my nephew lied and said he had not done any of that and the daycare worker was lying.  Then he got up in the daycare worker's face and yelled at her and another child.  My nephew is 8, he has Asperger's and ADHD, and he lives with my brother (his dad) and my parents.  My family is now likely going to shave his head and spank him for the first time in his life because they are absolutely at the end of their rope.  I love my family, and I know that they have tried a lot of other alternatives, as my mom and brother are both generally anti-spanking.  I want to intervene, to help them find another way, but I honestly can't think of anything.  I don't think the spanking will help, I think it will just break the trust he has with his grandfather, and possibly give him a justification for hitting people in the future, but I don't know what to suggest.  It is hard, because parents who are tempted to spank want to see immediate results, which spanking usually gives.  I am not advocating it, I think it gives immediate results because it is scary and painful, but on the surface it seems to "work" at the time it is administered, and my solutions can't compete with that because they require time, dedication, and patience.  guilty.gif

 

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Old 06-10-2011, 10:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post



For the record, we are extremely religious, devout Christians who strictly adhere to our Church's teachings... I don't believe God would want me to hurt this sweet child He has given to us. (I just don't want anyone to get the impression that all Christians are in favor of spanking or anything...)

 

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Whatever we do to the little ones/"least of these" we do to Him...  (I'm a conservative Catholic and see spanking as an issue of respectful care for the vulnerable and the dignity of every human being.)


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Old 06-10-2011, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by sosurreal09 View Post

I had a woman from the church I grew up in (who is commended at how well behaved and successful her children grew up to be) "advise me" I was doing my DD an injustice in not spanking her....I asked what age she starts spanking and she replied "6 months". I nearly vomited. She is labeled successful as a parent b/c all her kids moved out at 18 and either got married right away or went to college. Everyone has their own opinion on when it is "acceptable" to hit a child (or never).


This makes me laugh, in a dark way. My mom's parents wouldn't let her get married or move out at 18. So, she deliberately got pregnant, so they'd have "no choice" (culturally speaking at the time), but to let her get married. The only real reason for that was because she had to get the hell away from her mother and that was the only way she could think of to escape!

 


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Old 06-10-2011, 10:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jezebelle View Post

I feel your pain.  I just got a call this morning that my nephew had to be picked up from day-care because he was physically fighting and broke another child's Nintendo DS.  My mom had to go get him and pay $100 for the DS.  When she got there, my nephew lied and said he had not done any of that and the daycare worker was lying.  Then he got up in the daycare worker's face and yelled at her and another child.  My nephew is 8, he has Asperger's and ADHD, and he lives with my brother (his dad) and my parents.  My family is now likely going to shave his head and spank him for the first time in his life because they are absolutely at the end of their rope.  I love my family, and I know that they have tried a lot of other alternatives, as my mom and brother are both generally anti-spanking.  I want to intervene, to help them find another way, but I honestly can't think of anything.  I don't think the spanking will help, I think it will just break the trust he has with his grandfather, and possibly give him a justification for hitting people in the future, but I don't know what to suggest.  It is hard, because parents who are tempted to spank want to see immediate results, which spanking usually gives.  I am not advocating it, I think it gives immediate results because it is scary and painful, but on the surface it seems to "work" at the time it is administered, and my solutions can't compete with that because they require time, dedication, and patience.  guilty.gif

 



You may want to lurk around the special needs parenting forum.  It has some great ideas for helping kids with Aspergers and ADHD.  I had a student last year with aspergers and the parents over there have a lot of wonderful advice on gentle guidance with kids on the spectrum of these issues.

 


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Old 06-10-2011, 10:47 AM
 
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ahhh okay.  misread that then.  That makes more sense.

 

eta: 


Just so you know I wasn't taking it out thin air.  What did you mean to say?


DD1 is still getting hit...by ds2. I'm really not too sure she feels all that great about the fact that her little brother decks her, and then I chat with him, yk?


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