Why not spanking ? - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#31 of 176 Old 08-06-2012, 03:14 PM
 
Peggy O'Mara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
Posts: 482
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

You're right that spanking does result in immediate compliance, but it also results in a lot of negative consequences like depression, mood disorders, and increased aggression. A new study on physical punishment and mental disorders just came out recently.

 

Most of us spank because it was done to us or because we don't know what else to do. I wrote a blog recently about alternatives to spanking that helped me when I gave up spanking.

Peggy O'Mara is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#32 of 176 Old 08-06-2012, 05:35 PM
 
Lulu0910's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

As a child I was spanked often with a hand, belt, the absolute worse a long thing rubber tube that thanks to my brother mysteriously disappeared.  If I(we) made too much noise, the wind

blew the wrong way, bad grade, it rained outside and we hung up our clothes in the bathroom.  Anything she construed as being defiant.  If she felt that we didn't learn our lesson the first time she made the beatings were intense.  What did I learn from all of this??????  How to NEVER go to her for anything.  I never feared her I hated her (still do.)  I never learned any lesson but what I did learn is whenever anyone yells, argues that something bad will happen.  As an adult I completely shut down when yelled at,  I can't argue with my DH I'm literally paralyzed in fear that I will say whatever he wants to hear to stop him.  When people are angry bad things happen. 

 

As a mother I struggle each and everyday to not hit my DS.  When I feel that rage I completely stop, walk away or say words like "Mommy is not happy right now."  All to stop that feeling of hitting my sweet sweet DS. 

 

What I've learned is that it's ok to be frusterated/angry/upset by your LO.  They don't know any better they are learning.  Never take anything they do personally.  We constantly have to teach them.  They will never ever be perfect little angels.  Toddler's misbehave it's a part of life.   
 

Lulu0910 is offline  
#33 of 176 Old 08-06-2012, 06:56 PM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Here's my take:  pain avoidance is just that, pain avoidance.  Mice and rats modify their behavior to avoid pain, but that is the only reason for their behavior modification.  Humans are living beings and do much the same thing.  The problem with spanking or any other sort of physical punishment that induces pain is that it doesn't teach morals or a value system.  Behavior modification via physical punishment works in the short term because people are afraid of pain.

 

Case in point, I was spanked and belted as a child.  What I learned to do was sneak around so I wouldn't get caught.  I learned to lie better, be more stealth in my indiscretions.  No one talked to me or had any kind of heart-to-heart on why what I was doing was wrong.  I simply got punished.  So I simply learned to avoid punishment by lying more, avoiding people, etc.  My only goal was to escape pain, because pain was the only consequence.  I had no moral compass until much later in life.  

 

I didn't turn out "good" because I was spanked, I turned out good because there were people along the way (other than punitive parents) who made me realize that there is a whole moral arena out there that requires one to be "good" because it is the right thing to do, not because doing bad will result in punishment.  I hope that makes sense.


"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#34 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 12:02 AM
 
To-Fu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the base ship
Posts: 4,445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peggy O'Mara View Post

You're right that spanking does result in immediate compliance, but it also results in a lot of negative consequences like depression, mood disorders, and increased aggression. A new study on physical punishment and mental disorders just came out recently.

 

Most of us spank because it was done to us or because we don't know what else to do. I wrote a blog recently about alternatives to spanking that helped me when I gave up spanking.

 

I was just coming here to share a link to that study.  

 

I also think that spanking is a form of bullying and it completely severs the attachment between parent and child, so it's not "just" the considerable damage to the child's psyche.  If you're an attachment parent, if you're all about nurturing the connection with your kids that will one day enable them to be well-adjusted, autonomous human beings... then spanking is the opposite of that.

 

Here's a good quote from the High Needs Attachment Blog about that:

 

 

Quote:

The use or threat of physical punishment will heighten alarm in the child, and thereby increase defendedness.  A child who is continually in a state of alarm will erect a multitude of defenses against these feelings, and will become developmentally stuck.   For development to occur, a child needs to feel secure and at rest – both of which will not take root in a highly punitive environment.

 

And here's a bit from Parentmap that synthesizes Elizabeth Pantley and Alfie Kohn's views on spanking:

 

 

Quote:

Spanking is also ineffective discipline, according to Elizabeth Pantley, author of The No-Cry Discipline Solution. “Hitting a child typically immediately stops a behavior because of shock, fear or pain. But most children turn around and repeat the same behavior — sometimes even the same day!” More importantly, Pantley says, “Spanking does nothing to teach a child to develop inner discipline. A child’s focus is on the spanking itself, not on a review of the behavior that led to it.”
 

According to Pantley, spanking teaches children who are frustrated and don’t know how to handle a problem that the solution is to hit someone. For parents of preschoolers who try to prevent their children from hitting, this can be a confusing message.


Both Pantley and Kohn agree that the most important reason to avoid spanking is because spanking gets in the way of a healthy parent-child relationship. “Children look up to their parents as protectors, teachers and guides,” says Pantley. “When a parent breaks that pattern by hitting a child, the relationship suffers.”

 

I think the evidence is overwhelmingly against creating a punitive, fear-based environment for our children.  And certainly it is counterintuitive to hit our children if we are trying to foster attachment/connection and teach them lessons about how to handle mistakes and big feelings.  

 

There's also something to be said for treating kids like actual human beings.  I always ask myself:  "Would I do this (hit/speak this way/punish/etc.) to my grandma?"  If the answer is no, then I don't do it to my kids, either.

 

I think a lot of parenting is really about mastering our own emotions, and it's been the hardest part for me for sure.  It's trial by fire and it's intense--but it's up to us to model how to handle feelings and mistakes and "bad" behavior.  What are we teaching our children if we hit them when we don't like how they are acting?  We have to find another way.  (Peggy's link about alternatives to spanking is a good starting place.  Be wary of the time-out!  Some experts say it's worse than spanking in many ways.)


Have you seen the updated user agreement yet?
To-Fu is offline  
#35 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 03:29 AM
 
yurika47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I have to say, this is such a fascinating conversation... although I'm not hearing much in the way of support for spanking. I'm curious if there are any mamas out there who think its ok.

 

As for me, I was most certainly spanked as a child but in addition to spanking my parents were big on making sure that I understood that my actions had consequences (whether positive or negative). After every spanking (that I can remember at least) my parents sat me down to talk about what had happened and why I had been spanked and to reassure me that they loved me. On the flip side, they did their best to praise me when I did something responsible. And as I grew I was probably one of the more responsible among my friends. I'm sure more of that had to do with the talks we had but I can't completely dismiss spanking as part of an effective parenting strategy in my childhood. I think every family and every child is different and there is no one solution to every situation. That said, I'm not certain I would actually spank my child and not because I think it's a horrible thing to do but more because I'd rather focus on other types of behavior modification.

yurika47 is offline  
#36 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 06:18 AM
 
transylvania_mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: abroad
Posts: 1,048
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by yurika47 View Post

I have to say, this is such a fascinating conversation... although I'm not hearing much in the way of support for spanking. I'm curious if there are any mamas out there who think its ok.

 

As for me, I was most certainly spanked as a child but in addition to spanking my parents were big on making sure that I understood that my actions had consequences (whether positive or negative). After every spanking (that I can remember at least) my parents sat me down to talk about what had happened and why I had been spanked and to reassure me that they loved me. On the flip side, they did their best to praise me when I did something responsible. And as I grew I was probably one of the more responsible among my friends. I'm sure more of that had to do with the talks we had but I can't completely dismiss spanking as part of an effective parenting strategy in my childhood. I think every family and every child is different and there is no one solution to every situation. That said, I'm not certain I would actually spank my child and not because I think it's a horrible thing to do but more because I'd rather focus on other types of behavior modification.


would you support a husband hitting his wife? What if she deserved it? What if he told her he loved her afterwards?

 

What about hitting a disabled person? What if this was the only way they learned to behave appropriately?

 

This was acceptable in Western societies not long ago. Still is in some parts of the world.

 

Children deserve the same respect as other members of society. They shouldn't have to earn their right to physical integrity by behaving in a certain way.


caffix.gif

transylvania_mom is offline  
#37 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 06:27 AM
 
mleawicks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

i think its most important what ever you do to follow thru. i will use time out and spank onlywhen life threat...like running into RD.
 


DHcaffix.gif meteapot2.GIFDDfemalesling.GIFabout us 3 cats and 4 dogs goorganic.jpgfamilybed1.gifcd.gifsewmachine.gifgreenthumb.gifhang.gifsaynovax.gifinthet.gifuc.jpg

mleawicks is offline  
#38 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 06:51 AM
 
marsupial-mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 806
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Spanking is violent. I don't want or need to be violent with my children.

Studies show that spanking is no more effective than other methods of discipline. If its not more effective then why do it?
marsupial-mom is offline  
#39 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 08:44 AM
 
puddle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 896
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I don't have much to add to what the PPs have already said, so I'll just share my own experience.

 

I was spanked as a child.  I was very well-behaved and compliant.  So, I guess, it "worked."  It also taught me several important lessons:

 

1.  Whatever you do, don't get caught.

2.  Your parents are not on your side.  Don't trust them.  Communicate as little as possible with them.

3.  You and your siblings need protection from your parents.  You can try to protect them, but you will fail.
 

I was very compliant until I left for college.  I never did anything my parents would think was wrong unless I was absolutely certain I wouldn't get caught.  When I went away for college, I was no longer afraid of them.  They had no idea how to parent me once they could no longer threaten and control me, because it was the only tool they had.  And when I needed help, they were the last people I would have considered talking to because there was no trust in the relationship.  I knew they loved me, but I felt like we had an adversarial relationship.  I want a very different relationship with my children.

mleawicks likes this.
puddle is offline  
#40 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 09:56 AM
 
To-Fu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the base ship
Posts: 4,445
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddle View Post

I don't have much to add to what the PPs have already said, so I'll just share my own experience.

 

I was spanked as a child.  I was very well-behaved and compliant.  So, I guess, it "worked."  It also taught me several important lessons:

 

1.  Whatever you do, don't get caught.

2.  Your parents are not on your side.  Don't trust them.  Communicate as little as possible with them.

3.  You and your siblings need protection from your parents.  You can try to protect them, but you will fail.
 

I was very compliant until I left for college.  I never did anything my parents would think was wrong unless I was absolutely certain I wouldn't get caught.  When I went away for college, I was no longer afraid of them.  They had no idea how to parent me once they could no longer threaten and control me, because it was the only tool they had.  And when I needed help, they were the last people I would have considered talking to because there was no trust in the relationship.  I knew they loved me, but I felt like we had an adversarial relationship.  I want a very different relationship with my children.

 

This is very well put!  I have similar feelings toward my various parents.  It is not how I want my own children to feel.

 

I really don't think there is any situation that calls for spanking.  For me or for anyone else.  It feels like a human rights issue.  I would stand up for anyone being bullied by someone bigger and stronger.  We are everything to our children.  They are helpless and vulnerable--please don't hit them.  There is no reason.  There are so many better tools at our disposal.  Behavior modification is a dated concept, anyway, and no one wants to live in a punitive environment. 

 

I haven't read yet one good reason to ever hit a child, which is, I think, because THERE ISN'T ONE.  Especially not if you call yourself an attachment parent.

 

Yurika47, you probably won't find a lot of support for spanking here.  Traditionally, Mothering speaks out against things like crying it out and physical punishment.  

 

mleawicks, why hit a child that's already scared after doing something unsafe? 


Have you seen the updated user agreement yet?
To-Fu is offline  
#41 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Adaline'sMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by To-Fu View Post

 

I haven't read yet one good reason to ever hit a child, which is, I think, because THERE ISN'T ONE.  Especially not if you call yourself an attachment parent.

 

Yup. Typically, parent hit because they've lost their temper and dont feel like they have control over the situation. It seems like they hit, and then they justify it by calling it discipline,because they cant say "I made a really bad decision and hit my kid and there was no reason for my behavior."


Holly and David partners.gif

Adaline love.gif (3/20/10), and Charlie brokenheart.gif (1/26/12- 4/10/12) and our identical  rainbow1284.gif  twins Callie and Wendy (01/04/13)

SIDS happens. 

Adaline'sMama is offline  
#42 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 10:22 AM
 
Lulu0910's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I've thought about this since reading this thread and a few more comments.

 

Spanking is very popular among the Baby boomer generation.  As a child I remember in public when a child misbehaves it was common

practice to smack them.  In fact the other momma's would give you dirty looks till you silenced your child. 

 

A generation that condoned "Children should be seen but not heard."  Translation a baby boomer would beat the living daylights out of you

if you so much as breath the wrong way.

 

So baby boomers condoned spanking it was their norm.

My generation Y banned it!  Made it an offense if anyone mother so much as laid a hand on their LO.  Instant jail, child taken away, dcfs.

 

I'm not saying all baby boomers are bad.  From the baby boomers that I grew up around i.e Mother, her friends, aunts, etc.  Spanking was their standard

practice of discipline. 

Lulu0910 is offline  
#43 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 10:31 AM
 
Adaline'sMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

To be fair, most gen x-ers dont spank either. Where is this info coming from as far as "banning". Here in KY it is not illegal to spank your kid as long as you are not "causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress."

 

Here is a list of the laws state-by-state:

http://kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp


Holly and David partners.gif

Adaline love.gif (3/20/10), and Charlie brokenheart.gif (1/26/12- 4/10/12) and our identical  rainbow1284.gif  twins Callie and Wendy (01/04/13)

SIDS happens. 

Adaline'sMama is offline  
#44 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 10:56 AM
 
Lulu0910's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Adaline'sMama wrote:

To be fair, most gen x-ers dont spank either. Where is this info coming from as far as "banning". Here in KY it is not illegal to spank your kid as long as you are not "causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress."

 

Here is a list of the laws state-by-state:

http://kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp

 

 

FYI:  Google "States that banned spanking"

 

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2011/06/23/a-texas-judge-declares-spanking-a-child-a-crime/

Lulu0910 is offline  
#45 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 11:07 AM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu0910 View Post

 

 

FYI:  Google "States that banned spanking"

 

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2011/06/23/a-texas-judge-declares-spanking-a-child-a-crime/

Based on the article you cited, spanking still appears to be legal in Texas.  It rises to a criminal issue if the child is injured.  What exactly "injured" means remains to be seen and I suppose it is handled on a case by case basis.  Texas law allows for force, but not "deadly force." 

 

Apparently the Texas woman used too much force which landed her in trouble.  That particular case, though, didn't make spanking against the law, even though I admire the judge for taking a stance.  The criminal code has to be changed by legislature, not judges. 


"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#46 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 11:14 AM
 
tonttu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I still remember to this day 35 years later , when I was 3 years old and my Mother kept telling me , not to run across the street in front of my Grandparents house . I also still remember clearly , that I thought , I will not stop trying until she smacks me on the butt , no matter what she says .

And I didn´t stop and got smacked and that´s when I figured , she is serious 

I am against violence in general , but a spank is a far cry from that and SOMETIMES there is a time and a place for it 


vbac.gifafter 3 cs fambedsingle1.gifbfinfant.gifHappily single Momteapot2.GIFknit.gif

tonttu is offline  
#47 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 11:19 AM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

greensad.gif


"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#48 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 12:01 PM
 
Adaline'sMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

greensad.gif


yeahthat.gif

 

 

 

And according to Mothering's Terms of Use, users cannot advocate physical punishment.  So, here, there is "no time and place" for it.

 

 

Quote:
"Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions that advocate crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations as a parenting philosophy. We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, sizeism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. We will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and are cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as abortion, religion and race. We do not host abortion debate. "

 

 

 

 

Also, I'd love to see an article where a white person was being prosecuted for spanking in the south. If Texas really feels that way, they should change their laws. Their books still currently state that you can "use physical force on a child as long as no injury occurs" , basically you can spank them, you just cant leave a mark.


Holly and David partners.gif

Adaline love.gif (3/20/10), and Charlie brokenheart.gif (1/26/12- 4/10/12) and our identical  rainbow1284.gif  twins Callie and Wendy (01/04/13)

SIDS happens. 

Adaline'sMama is offline  
#49 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 12:44 PM
 
Lulu0910's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 124
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Adaline'sMama--- I have to say one of my biggest pet peeves to any argument is throwing a race card.  Really???  If you google "mom's arrested for spanking her child."  You would find the mother's "race/nationality" is all across the board.  The Texas case was merely "ONE" out of pages upon pages of different cases.  Her nationality, race, religious standing has absolute no bearing in this conversation.  After all correct me if I'm wrong this topic is about "SPANKING" now isn't it?  Wouldn't one be for a law that punishes a mother who spanks their child?  I for one don't condone spanking!   
 

Lulu0910 is offline  
#50 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 01:00 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

I still remember to this day 35 years later , when I was 3 years old and my Mother kept telling me , not to run across the street in front of my Grandparents house . I also still remember clearly , that I thought , I will not stop trying until she smacks me on the butt , no matter what she says .
And I didn´t stop and got smacked and that´s when I figured , she is serious 
I am against violence in general , but a spank is a far cry from that and SOMETIMES there is a time and a place for it 

If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.
transylvania_mom likes this.
mamazee is offline  
#51 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 01:20 PM
 
MichelleZB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,015
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post


If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.

Exactly! My mother is not a spanker, so I had other ways of telling when she was serious. She had a certain tone of voice, a certain way of saying something, that communicated to me that I had hit a hard limit.

 

As for running across the street: my mom was handicapped and could not run after us if we ran across the street and were in danger. She was so terrified of us running across the street and being run over that she always reacted very strongly and emotionally to it. We learned very early not to do it, unless we wanted a mother hugging us and sobbing everywhere.

MichelleZB is offline  
#52 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 01:25 PM
 
tonttu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post


If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.

No , my Mother was and is to this day , a wonderful  Mother and Grandmother to my kids . I admire her for everything she has done and still does for me and all of us to this day and I have a great deal of  respect for her as well . 

I do not beat my children nor do I advocate physical abuse , and I was never physically abused as a child . 

However as a young woman I was  , in my first marriage , so I really know the difference between a smack and a beating and there is a WORLD of difference between the two . 

And I don´t mean that as advocating spanking , which I would never do , that is a mere statement 


vbac.gifafter 3 cs fambedsingle1.gifbfinfant.gifHappily single Momteapot2.GIFknit.gif

tonttu is offline  
#53 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 01:55 PM
 
Peggy O'Mara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico
Posts: 482
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.

 

I wanted a different relationship with my children. I learned that they, that all of us, have a good reason for their behavior. We have choices in conflict with children and adults. Children are, by nature, dependent--they cannot fulfill their own needs. When a child "misbehaves," it may be that she is simply frustrated by a legitimate need. She may be tired, hungry, or overwhelmed by a disruption of her routine; she may be feeling jealous, frustrated, confused, or afraid; or she may be simply too young to understand or to express her emotions. When we eliminate the symptoms of the problem by punishing, the problem does not go away.

 

Your child's behavior can teach you something about his needs, if you take the time to listen. Almost all acting out is a cry for help. Your child may be jealous, afraid, lonely, or in a situation that is out of his control. Often the child who is acting most unlovable is the most in need of love. 

 

Young children are naturally impatient, forgetful, stubborn, loud, messy, and demanding. They are childish. It is unrealistic to expect them to act in socially acceptable ways until they have the maturity to do so. Most youngsters under five do not have the language or cognitive skills needed to share or work our disagreements, so they fight or cry instead.

 

Even in the case of real danger--as when a child runs out into the road--you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

 

And, I find it illuminating that while we talk of some states outlawing spanking, 32 countries outlaw spanking! Sweden did so in 1979. Kenya in 2010. Republic of Congo in 2010. Sudan in 2011. I don't think it's any coincidence that we are such a violent and aggressive society when we condone spanking. 

CatsCradle and lovestolearn like this.
Peggy O'Mara is offline  
#54 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 03:16 PM
 
pek64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am commenting a little off topic, responding to the Baby Boom comment. Spanking, smacking and beating children has been around for a long time. The move away from physical punishment, in my observations, began sometime in the 1960s. I think, like many changes, it has taken time to increase popularity.
pek64 is offline  
#55 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 03:47 PM
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

No , my Mother was and is to this day , a wonderful  Mother and Grandmother to my kids . I admire her for everything she has done and still does for me and all of us to this day and I have a great deal of  respect for her as well . 
I do not beat my children nor do I advocate physical abuse , and I was never physically abused as a child . 
However as a young woman I was  , in my first marriage , so I really know the difference between a smack and a beating and there is a WORLD of difference between the two . 
And I don´t mean that as advocating spanking , which I would never do , that is a mere statement 

I didn't mean your mother was mean. I'm sure she was using the tools she knew. There was a time when almost everyone spanked - nice parents and parents who weren't so nice. It was just the norm.

I was responding to you saying you decided that you would run across the street unless she spanked you. That is the behavior of a child used to being punished. You know what is right and wrong, what is acceptable or not, by whether you are punished. You know how wrong what you are doing is by how severely you are punished.

I see that as an argument against punishment. If that is your way of teaching not to do something, it ensures you will have to punish for your child to know what to do. You've established punishment (and in this case spanking) as your language.

Also, you have to escalate as they get older, and as they do worse things. A mild swat on the butt won't work for older children used to it, let alone jaded adolescents. Looking past the behavior at the problem instead of at the behavior, and then working with the child to solve that problem, requires no escalation. The language is language of cooperation and encourages the child to cooperate (and not hide behavior) as he/she grows up.

And also, as I was saying, if the only expectations you have exist for very strong reasons, you don't have to punish to explain why. When there are few rules, and they are only for very important reasons (like safety), it isn't that hard to get children to follow them because they can see the reasons for the rules themselves and they aren't constantly running up against rules to rebel against.
*LoveBugMama* likes this.
mamazee is offline  
#56 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 04:18 PM
 
CatsCradle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy O'Mara View Post

I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.

 

 

Even in the case of real danger--as when a child runs out into the road--you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

 

Peggy, I find this to be true on so many levels.  My DD is incredibly shaken by my own communication of fear.  DD at 5.5 has become an excellent street crosser, simply because she understands the gravity of certain choices (or ignoring safety).  She is so much more effected by my own dramatics, which are genuine.  My dramatics don't include physical contact (other than grabbing of arm to pull back).

 

You know, I'm just having a hard time with the concept that hitting (I don't care if it is a small smack) creates positive results.  It seems illogical to me that we (general we) sanction the hitting of children.  Assault in legal terms is the "intentional unwanted touching of others"...that's right..."intentional unwanted touching" and yet we still think that the spanking of children is okay?  If my boss gave me a light pat every time I committed a wrong in the workplace, he would be in court.  Why?  Because we have decided that personhood, bodily integrity and respect of the person is paramount.  For some reason that doesn't extend to children.  They are the last "property" in my opinion and we (general we) treat them as such.  It used to be okay to hit your wife when she didn't obey.  It was totally acceptable and even encouraged to maintain control over one's household.  Thank goodness we've moved from there, but cats and dogs and hamsters have more bodily integrity and rights than children, and it frustrates me to no end.


"Lawyers, I suppose, were children once." Charles Lamb.
CatsCradle is offline  
#57 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 06:14 PM
 
katelove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,883
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post


You know, I'm just having a hard time with the concept that hitting (I don't care if it is a small smack) creates positive results.  It seems illogical to me that we (general we) sanction the hitting of children.  Assault in legal terms is the "intentional unwanted touching of others"...that's right..."intentional unwanted touching" and yet we still think that the spanking of children is okay?  If my boss gave me a light pat every time I committed a wrong in the workplace, he would be in court.  Why?  Because we have decided that personhood, bodily integrity and respect of the person is paramount.  For some reason that doesn't extend to children.  They are the last "property" in my opinion and we (general we) treat them as such.  It used to be okay to hit your wife when she didn't obey.  It was totally acceptable and even encouraged to maintain control over one's household.  Thank goodness we've moved from there, but cats and dogs and hamsters have more bodily integrity and rights than children, and it frustrates me to no end.

I agree. SmackIng and beating are not the same thing but they are on the same continuum of physical violence. Just because a smack doesn't leave the victim bloodied and bruised doesn't make it harmless or in any way ok.

Mother of two spectacular girls, born mid-2010 and late 2012  mdcblog5.gif

katelove is online now  
#58 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 06:30 PM
 
Adaline'sMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,757
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy O'Mara View Post

 

And, I find it illuminating that while we talk of some states outlawing spanking, 32 countries outlaw spanking! Sweden did so in 1979. Kenya in 2010. Republic of Congo in 2010. Sudan in 2011. I don't think it's any coincidence that we are such a violent and aggressive society when we condone spanking. 

Wow, I had no idea that so many countries outlawed it. I hope we can join that list soon.

 

 

 

Lulu, I dont want to argue with you or derail the thread to get on this topic, but people of color (and particularly immigrants in Texas and Arizona) have been prosecuted for SO many things that white people would never be prosecuted for. Im not saying that it's not good that they did prosecute, Im just saying htat until it's happening on a regular basis, Im not going to put much faith in it being enforced.

MadiMamacita likes this.

Holly and David partners.gif

Adaline love.gif (3/20/10), and Charlie brokenheart.gif (1/26/12- 4/10/12) and our identical  rainbow1284.gif  twins Callie and Wendy (01/04/13)

SIDS happens. 

Adaline'sMama is offline  
#59 of 176 Old 08-07-2012, 09:20 PM
 
MindlessChrissy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,058
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)

Unhappily I've spanked/smacked my son 2 times in his life.

 

The first time was because he ripped up a book and I was angry and I smacked him on the butt. I felt so horrible right after I did it that I started bawling like crazy and hugging him and telling him how sorry I was.

 

The 2nd time was when he ran into the road. We're always telling him to not run in the road. Stop. Look both ways before going into the road. (We even take him to the road to practice. We also tell him to not go/run into the road alone/without an adult.) That day he didn't bother. No amount of me yelling and carrying on stopped him. He almost got hit. He utterly failed to listen to a word I said. He payed me zero attention not matter how panicked I became. The faster I ran to him, the faster he ran off. When I got him I was in tears and I smacked him one across his butt while yelling and crying and carrying on. To this day when I raise my voice at him he will duck his head and scrunch down. This makes me feel like the smallest idiot to ever walk this earth. To know that I cause this type of reaction in my son when I raise my voice. It hurts my heart and makes me sad so now I try not to raise my voice at him. Which in turn means he ignores me and continues to do what he wants.


Me - 39 - mthfr c677t and multiple unknown caused m/c's
DH - 40 - old and cranky
DS - 6 - ASD and severe adhd
MindlessChrissy is online now  
#60 of 176 Old 08-08-2012, 04:59 AM
 
tonttu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post


I was responding to you saying you decided that you would run across the street unless she spanked you. That is the behavior of a child used to being punished. You know what is right and wrong, what is acceptable or not, by whether you are punished. You know how wrong what you are doing is by how severely you are punished.
 

No , on the contrary , I was not being punished a lot . My Mother as well as my paternal Grandparents were the most loving and kind people , any child could wish to grow up around ! 

I just always felt , and still feel to this day , that a child needs to know , it´s the child , not another little adult , living in the house , and that the grown-ups make the rules .

That has nothing to do with authoritarian upbringing or child abuse , but that is how it works throughout society , there are those . that are in charge and those that make the rules and the sooner a child learns that , the better 


vbac.gifafter 3 cs fambedsingle1.gifbfinfant.gifHappily single Momteapot2.GIFknit.gif

tonttu is offline  
Reply

Tags
Gentle Discipline

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off