Lying sneaky nine year old - Mothering Forums

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#1 of 20 Old 10-06-2012, 07:41 PM - Thread Starter
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So… I need some ideas here mamas! My daughter turned 9 last week. She takes ballet once a week. She says she doesn't like it and never wants to go, but I am requiring her to finish the current session because she committed to it, having taken ballet before, having many conversations about it before she registered and because I paid for the whole session.

Last week she hid her leotard under the seat of the car to get out of going and lied about it, a LOT of times, pretended to look for it, and listened to me go on and on about how sure I was that I had put it in the bag, I couldn't understand where it had gone, etc etc. I finally found it tonight.

I have no idea what to do about this. She's having a birthday sleepover tonight so I'm not confronting her with it until tomorrow, so I have time to get your collective wisdom about how to deal with this. Natural consequences, I don't know what they would be. I can't think of anything to do that makes sense and will communicate the seriousness of deliberately lying and keeping the lie going over the course of hours and even DAYS.

I'm freaking out because is this sociopathic?? What do I do?
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#2 of 20 Old 10-06-2012, 08:01 PM
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It certainly is frustrating when our children make choices that go against the values we're trying to instill. And the amount of time spent searching for something that your daughter hid could have been better spent. Been there. Aggravation City.

And then there is her side. I'm wondering why she doesn't want to go. From the outside, it appears that she had to go to pretty extreme lengths to get you to hear her objections to the class.

You want her to finish. Understood.
If she were my child, my decision would be based on the answers to the following questions.

How many weeks remain that have been paid for?
What are her reasons for not wanting to go?
Are either of you able to come up with other ways that she can address her concerns while completing the paid for lessons?

Sometimes, something unexpected happens and we, as adults, may need to walk away from an investment. I would have to know that her concerns are not equally valid before trying to enforce attendance. I suggest you talk to her about the lessons and really listen to her feelings. We all feel better when our feelings are understood.
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#3 of 20 Old 10-06-2012, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I should clarify that once she gets into class she enjoys it and comes out in a good mood, and even admits that it's "a little bit fun", and this is a girl who does not to admit that anything is fun! I agree with you that it's a pretty extreme length to go to just to avoid a dance class… she has a therapist who is fully supportive of insisting that she finish up her session (which goes until a couple of weeks before Christmas).
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#4 of 20 Old 10-06-2012, 08:35 PM
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That doesn't fit with hiding the leotard. I would talk with her and listen to her feelings. It couldn't hurt to understand her motives.
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#5 of 20 Old 10-06-2012, 11:08 PM
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I don't think it is sociopathic behavior to lie about hiding leotards so you don't have to do ballet then to keep up the lie so you don't have to hear about how wrong it was to hide them in the first place. I suggest buying a few more pairs and keeping them in your drawer or in the car so she doesn't miss ballet just because her outfit went missing. I would buy cheap for the replacement though. You might also check with the instructor to see if you can send her in loose fitting clothes if it happens again if buying another leotard isn't doable.

Beyond that though you really should ask her why she doesn't want to go. Maybe the kids this year aren't nice, maybe her body is starting to change a bit and getting in the leotard is embarrassing for her at this developmental stage, or maybe she is in a ballet rut. My dd has done swimming for years but occasionally hits a rut so I let her pick two sessions to just miss and it is her call when she can miss them. After she misses hee two she has to attend unless she is contagious though.
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#6 of 20 Old 10-06-2012, 11:39 PM
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I agree tell her she can have two free misses to use. Also I got breasts around 9 and was mortified. Maybe this could be her issue tin tight clothes.

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#7 of 20 Old 10-06-2012, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mariamaroo View Post

I'm freaking out because is this sociopathic?? What do I do?


Didn't we all do this sort of thing as kids?  Sheepish.gif  Obviously I didn't do this exact thing, but it doesn't seem too out of the ordinary for me, thinking back on how I was at that age.  


I also would try to figure out what's going on with ballet, though.  My nine year old does karate twice a week and he LOVES it when he's there and always feels good after he's done.  But I kind of have to drag him kicking and screaming because he's always really tired by that time of day.  I pick him up from school and let him lay around for an hour and then he just can't stand the idea of moving.  I think in our case, it is worth pushing him to go because he is getting a lot of good stuff out of it and seems not to have grasped (at all) the idea that sometimes you have to do stuff that hurts a little to get good results in life.  So, it may just be this sort of thing with your dd, but I would want to make sure that she's not having some real issue at ballet. 


I don't know what I'd do in terms of "consequences".  I don't punish my kids at all.  But I do think that since she has lied to you, you're probably worrying about whether or not you'll be able to trust her, and maybe you could just explain that to her.  That may be plenty in terms of consequences.  

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#8 of 20 Old 10-07-2012, 12:01 AM
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Your DD is screaming that she does NOT want to go to ballet.  While she may appear to be having fun after she gets there, she's not having fun.  Hiding the gymsuit is about as loud of a cry as you can get at 9 yrs old.  This child does not want to go to class.  It doesn't matter how much you paid for this session.  Its not about the follow through or commitment, she's been verbally telling you she doesn't want to go, she doesn't like it and now shes taken to hiding the uniform.

This is not a battle worth having.  Find another activity.

This is not a discipline issue,  this is about listening to your DD and hearing what she is saying.   (I also don't agree with the therapist on this one)

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#9 of 20 Old 10-08-2012, 01:23 PM
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I would let her stop.


My kids are 15, 17 and 18.  I let them quit sports and activities when they were younger. All the time!  I let them skip practice a lot too.   If they didn't feel like going...they didn't go.


It turned out okay.  Nobody is lazy.  None of them refuse to go to school.  They aren't quitters.  As a matter of fact, my oldest is a Division I athlete running cross country in college.   He runs about 75 - 80 miles a week. My other two are in high school and participate daily in a school sponsored sport.  Year round.  


I guess my point is that if you are worried about her not sticking with something, that doesn't have to be the case.  Or if you are worried that you are sending a message that you are condoning quitting, she won't get that message.  I feel like the message she will get is that she can trust mom.  


This is just a small slice of her life.  I feel like as long as are consistent as a whole - you're all good.

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#10 of 20 Old 10-08-2012, 01:33 PM
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I'd look past the behavior and at the reason for the behavior. It isn't sociopathic to try to get out of going to a class you don't like. She must dislike ballet more than you're aware of to go to those lengths. I'd talk to her about ballet and find out why she doesn't want to go. How many more classes are there? I personally wouldn't force a kid to continue going to a class they'd shown that level of discomfort about. It might be she likes ballet but feels uncomfortable in that leotard or something. It could be her changing body. It could be a kid at the class, or the teacher. It could be that there is something about the class you can fix so she'd want to keep going, but to keep communication open I'd talk about it from that viewpoint (wow you really didn't want to go to ballet class) rather than focusing on the hid leotard. If you go in immediately about her hiding the leotard and lying about it, she might never tell you the reason.
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#11 of 20 Old 10-08-2012, 01:40 PM
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One time I paid $80 for a class, and it turned out to be not what I expected and I didn't connect with the other people.  I told my husband I felt like I should keep going because I spent the money, and he said, "I think it's worth $80 not to have to spend an hour every week feeling uncomfortable."  Now, I don't think his logic was perfect, but I felt so heard and loved when he said that! 


It's not going to inconvenience anyone if she quits (like if she were on a team or something) and the money's already spent, so why not make her life a little less difficult?  Rather than confronting her, I would just say "I found your leotard.  I'm sorry I didn't listen to you when you said you didn't want to do it."  Then, maybe you can set up some free trial classes of things she might like better, and use the rest of what would be the ballet session exploring other things she might like without making a big commitment.

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#12 of 20 Old 10-08-2012, 02:08 PM
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How much more of the class is there? How much money would that cost? Is there a way she can earn that money to "pay back" the cost of the course?


Why does her therapist think it's good for her to finish out? If this is a manifestation of something like social anxiety and she's working on getting used to being slightly uncomfortable in a group setting, I could see where it might have value. If it's simply a case of not letting her "win" a power struggle, I would see if there's a third option (like having her pay back the cost) that might work for both of you.


I have to say that my dh is pretty hard core on finishing up things that the kids have signed up for and it irritates me. He doesn't even want them to skip a week. It bothers me because sometimes the kids just need a break.

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#13 of 20 Old 10-08-2012, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mnj77 View Post

One time I paid $80 for a class, and it turned out to be not what I expected and I didn't connect with the other people.  I told my husband I felt like I should keep going because I spent the money, and he said, "I think it's worth $80 not to have to spend an hour every week feeling uncomfortable."  Now, I don't think his logic was perfect, but I felt so heard and loved when he said that! 




I love this :) 

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#14 of 20 Old 10-26-2013, 04:42 PM
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As a dancer I don't blame her!! I have to be in "the mood" for ballet- would never take two classes back to back -and it is an acquired adult taste of mine. Ballet really isn't a dance style for little kids.

Personally, to me the natural consequence of not being able to find the leotard is go without, or have to wear something that works to dance in but obviously didn't match the rest of class... I don't mind a little humiliation, some disagree with me on this, & the studio would have to support you, at least make to sit and watch bored.

Another thought is might they let her switch to another style/class part way though? Or prorate a class next session?
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#15 of 20 Old 10-26-2013, 08:38 PM
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I have a 9 yr old that takes dance (though not ballet). I disagree that hiding the leotard necessarily means she really doesn't like ballet or something else is going on. It's possible and I definitely would investigate, but I think the more likely scenario is that she likes whatever else she's doing that moment more than the idea of going to dance class, like rubidoux said about her son's karate class. 


I might let my girl skip a class, but I wouldn't let her quit altogether unless there was something else going on (like a mean teacher). Like rubidoux we also don't do much punishment in our house. Assuming there's not a major issue with the teacher or something else, I'd tell my kid that I have paid for the class and they need to pay me back if they're going to drop it especially after we had a big discussion before signing up about whether she wanted to take it or not. I'd let them quit if they paid me back. I view that as a natural consequence, but it might feel punitive to some. My kids get an allowance, though, and it would be part of our learning about money. I don't directly buy them toys or candy, etc, usually either (unless it's a birthday or other special occasion)— they pay for that out of their allowance money so paying back for the unused classes would make sense to them. However, we pay for our dance classes by the month only, so I would be willing to let them quit after what we had paid for had passed. I am also willing to let them skip class if they feel sick or have a heavy homework load or maybe even if they're just having a super crappy day. Maybe this is also a natural consequence for you to learn not to pay for the whole session in advance :) .


That said, my kids don't do ballet. I know it's not a great fit for them. My dd1 thought she might like to take it and she really wanted me to sign her up, but I put her off by letting her take one free trial class and told her if she liked that we could think about signing up for it. She didn't even make it through the whole class before she was coming to me saying she didn't like it. I did have her finish that one class (55 minute class) because I thought it would be rude to walk out in the middle, but we did not sign up for ballet. She's more of a "contemporary" girl.


Now, as far as the lying, we don't do punishments, but we would have a Big Talk about that and I think the advice upthread about talking about trust with her is solid. I don't think I would buy another leotard since I'd already feel like I was wasting money on the ballet class, but I would keep the leotard and not give it back to her until it was time for dance class next week, so it couldn't get "lost" again.


I would then try to work out a mutually agreeable solution ala Ross Greene's Collaborative Problem Solving approach or Faber and Mazlisch ("How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk"). I would lay out your observations about the dance situation — 1) she says she doesn't want to go, but after class she reports that it was a little bit fun, 2) you have already paid $$ for these classes, 3) she agreed beforehand that she really wanted to take ballet again, and then I would ask for her input. What is it about dance class that she doesn't like? You might offer a few suggestions — is the teacher too strict? is your dd tired after school? are some of the other kids not nice? does your dd want to do something else then instead (play, watch a video, etc). And then when you have gotten to the root of the problem (the teacher's not mean, but it smells really bad in there; or I just wanna stay home and play Minecraft or some of the other girls make fun of me) you can define the problem, write it down and brainstorm for some mutually agreeable solutions. We have used this technique many times and it really helps to show the child that I am taking her seriously (you write things down after all). It also helps to really define the problem and help us both think all the way through it. Sometimes the kids come up with great ideas. They also like to sometimes come up with very silly ideas, also, but I write them down, too. Going through the process of putting it all down on paper makes it really feel like a Big Deal and that you are taking both the dance class problem and the lying very seriously. You may find that the problem is something more serious like girl bullying or it may be something more trivial (wanting to play My Little Ponies instead). Really getting to the root of the problem will help you decide whether to insist that she finish the session and it will improve the trust between you.


If you like you can also do a separate brainstorming session about the lying/sneaky behavior. You may find that she has some good suggestions for solutions here too. 

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#16 of 20 Old 10-27-2013, 12:20 AM
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"Hey, DD, today I think we'll skip dance class, okay? Instead, I want to take you someplace". Someplace boring, of course. A place the two of you can talk about what really matters with this dance class. If there's immediate push-back on doing something else during that time that day, then you have a clue that it's probably not the dance class she's avoiding. With some focused energy about the dance class, you may find that there is a super-bully in there, or that the girl who dances next to her has perfect long hair that she wishes she had and then feels horrible about herself. You may find that one day she let out a big huge fart during stretching and now the kids make a joke about it. Who knows....but an endless chat might resolve it. 


Just go easy on the sneaky lying psychopath stuff. She wasn't able to get her point across to you directly, so she had to do it another way.


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#17 of 20 Old 10-27-2013, 10:26 AM
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The hiding the leotard would really bother me. My 10-year-old hasn't done anything quite like this but if she did I would talk to her about our relationship and how important honesty is.

I agree with you and your therapist--another month and a half of class is totally doable. Money is pretty tight for our family so both girls, even the four-year-old, understand that if we spend money for an activity and the equipment/attire, then they have to stick it out.

I would make sure no kids were being mean to her.  Out of the blue when my dd was 9, she started saying she didn't like dance. I went in to take a peak and this 12 year old was harassing her. Once we took care of that, she was fine with the class. I'd check to see that nothing like that was going on.

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#18 of 20 Old 10-27-2013, 01:59 PM
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I would absolutely not make her pay me back, nor refuse to allow her to quit.  I agree with everyone who said she is shouting, loud and clear and any way she can, that she does not want to go, and she needs to know you are listening & take her seriously.  Certainly talk to her about why she doesn't like it, and problem solve together if you can, but ultimately - it's her class and her decision.  The money is already spent.  You aren't getting more bang for your buck by making your kid miserable.  I would talk to her, figure out what went wrong (why she thought she'd like it, why she didn't) and how this should influence decisions about activities going forward.  Instead of forcing her to stick it out when she doesn't like it, I simply wouldn't pay for a new activity during the same time period.  


Look at it as a budgeting issue - we had X amount set aside to pay for this activity you chose, that was supposed to last from this-month to that-month.  So after that-month, we can consider budgeting for a new activity - what have we learned, and how can we choose more wisely next time (ask friends who've taken the class about what it's like, free trial or drop-in classes to start, lower cost options through parks & rec, dabbling in a few different areas before committing, etc.).  No shame or punishment. :)

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#19 of 20 Old 11-04-2013, 01:06 PM
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I haven't had this type of issue with my own child, but my cousin did, and I thought her approach was interesting.  Her daughter was around 5 and taking piano lessons and loving them, but suddenly she said she did not want to go.  The first week, they had a big power struggle, resulting in mom forcing child to go to the lesson, child admitting afterward that she had fun, but both of them feeling hurt and grudging about the struggle.  The next week, mom responded calmly, "Oh, you don't want to go to piano today."  Child looked puzzled and troubled.  Mom said nothing further.  As lesson time approached, child said, in a confrontational "bratty" tone, "I am NOT going to piano!"  Mom said, "You decided not to go to piano.  I will call Mr. __ and tell him."  Child stood quietly while mom called, then spent the time drifting around the house seeming uncomfortable, while mom acted normal.  By bedtime she was in tears: "I wish I had gone to piano.  I missed seeing Mr. __ and maybe I hurt his feelings."  Mom held her and listened to her feelings and said things like, "It's scary to feel like you made the wrong choice."  There was never again any trouble about going to lessons.  The child needed to feel like she was going to them by her own choice, to understand that she actually wanted to go.


I have had a few times when my son directly lied about something, similar to hiding the leotard.  What I do is tell him that I am very disappointed in him for lying about it because it is important to me to be able to trust what he says.  That's that--I avoid ranting on and on about it.  But the next time a very similar situation comes up, I look him right in the eyes and say something like (using your example), "Last time you said you couldn't find your leotard, I found it under the seat of the car, and I'm pretty sure you hid it there on purpose.  I think you know where it is this time, too."  He will protest and pretend for a while, but if I keep repeating firmly, "I think you know where it is." eventually he will pretend to "accidentally" stumble upon it--or, if he's telling the truth this time, he will change his tone so that I can tell.

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#20 of 20 Old 11-09-2013, 08:47 PM
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Sorry this is kinda an old thread now but I still wanted to respond. When I was 9 my mom signed me up for horseback riding and I wasn't really that excited about it but she seemed to think I would love it, so I went anyway. I ended up hating it, it was just not for me at all, but I didn't want to annoy my mom so I went along with it. I kept telling my mom that the lessons were fun, even though they were not at all, because I knew she wanted me to like them. Then one day I just couldn't stand the thought of going anymore so instead of walking to my lesson after school like I normally did I "forgot" and took the bus home. The next week I did the same thing, my dad asked me if I wanted to stop going and I REALLY wanted to stop, but I said that I still wanted to go, cuz knew that's what my parents wanted. I kept taking the lessons but would "forget" and get the bus every few weeks. I really didn't want to go, but I new my parents wanted me to go, and I wanted them to be happy about what I was doing, so I wasn't honest. Finally, after like 2 years of being stressed out and feeling like I was going to barf all day before my lesson I got up the courage to tell my parents, and they felt horrible for not paying attention to my obvious cry for help. They let me stop right away, or course. She brought it up just the other day and I had to assure her that I was over it, it was 20 years ago, but she STILL felt bad about how clueless she was about it.

Anyway, what I'm saying s that your dd is displaying totally normal 9 year-old behavior. Thinking that she is "lying, sneaky, & psycopathic" when she is really just trying to tell you something in a normal 9 year-old way is an issue you have to deal with in yourself, not a problem with her. I hope talked with her and figured out what was going on, and maybe she will learn to feel more comfortable being honest with you if you are less judgmental with her. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but your words about your dd were pretty harsh!

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