How do you 'expect' kids to do something, or 'not give them a choice'? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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#91 of 116 Old 04-21-2013, 06:36 AM
 
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OP -- you posted for advice, and have been given some good advice, in my opinion. I disagree with some of what I've read, but some has been spot on!

The theme I've seen is you being argumentative with the posters. You say you already do what's been advised, or it wouldn't work with your child, etc. Based on that, I'm inclined to believe things are not going to improve with your daughter until you are open to making a change. I fully expect you to disagree with this. Still, if you can open yourself to the idea that you and your daughter are different people, with different points of view, AND NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG, then, I predict, you will see improvement.


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#92 of 116 Old 04-21-2013, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
 
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OP -- you posted for advice, and have been given some good advice, in my opinion. I disagree with some of what I've read, but some has been spot on!

 

I completely agree.  Some of it has been implemented, to good effect (eg the routine/pre-warning stuff).  Some of it has not been implemented, either because it is already in use or doesn't seem to apply to our situation.

 

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The theme I've seen is you being argumentative with the posters. You say you already do what's been advised, or it wouldn't work with your child, etc.

 

Any set of advice on the internet is going to contain some items that are useful, some that are already being implemented, and some that don't work for the particular situation.  It seems you and I disagree about which category each of the pieces offered here fall into.  You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I'll keep mine as well, thanks.

 

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Based on that, I'm inclined to believe things are not going to improve with your daughter until you are open to making a change. I fully expect you to disagree with this.

 

Well, it is hard to take you seriously when your dire predictions are in direct contradiction to the reality that things have already improved, and continue to do so.

 

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you and your daughter are different people, with different points of view,

 

This is a truism, but it's fine if you would like to restate it for the record

 

 

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AND NEITHER IS RIGHT OR WRONG,

 

I would say that anyone who is viewing interactions between people through a lens of 'right and wrong' is in trouble to begin with. 

 

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then, I predict, you will see improvement.

 

Indeed!  Thank you for your contribution to the thread. ;)


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#93 of 116 Old 04-21-2013, 10:26 PM
 
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If you are truly already being consistent then this is probably a testing phase and it should end as soon as your DD realizes that you and your Dh are not going to change your mind just because a tantrum happens.

You mentioned that your DD gets too silly then mad again when you try the playful approach. I suggest allowing her to be mad and not trying to change that. Let her know that it is OK to be mad and you are there for her if she wants a hug then let her feel her emotion without trying to stop her. Being mad or sad about not getting your way is normal and she will manage these emotions without crying as she gets older. If distraction isn't working empathize briefly and move on to allowing her to express herself. As long as she isn't hurting something her emotional expressions should be allowed.

It also sounds like her being mad is how she is interacting with you because you try to stop it. Changing your reaction to quietly staying in the room and seeking out other opportunities to interact may help decrease how often she flies off the handle over little things.
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#94 of 116 Old 04-22-2013, 03:43 PM
 
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Because this is a long thread, I haven't taken the time to read through every post - just glanced at the first few pages.

 

I teach Positive Discipline workshops.  Here's a list of tools to prevent power struggles over clothes in the mornings.

 

1. Create a visual routine chart. Let the child help create the chart. Ask, "What's next on your chart?" so the child is the "boss" of the routine. Here's an article I wrote on this.

 

2. Spend special time with each child each week (30 minutes to an hour) to build your relationship. During special time, focus on enjoying each other's company and building up your child. This really cuts down on many power struggles after special time is a routine thing.

 

3. Find time in the morning routine to do something with your daughter - either brush your teeth together or get dressed together or eat breakfast together. Again, the intent is to build the relationship, something that will help prevent power struggles and indirectly invite cooperation.

 

4. Ask your child's help. Hugs, then ask, "Hey, I really need your help in getting to work on time (or getting you to school on time.) What are your ideas?

 

5. Find out feelings and validate her feelings: "So, you're not really wanting to get dressed this morning, love. What's going on?" Often this was enough to dissolve any resistance.

 

I'm suggesting that the long range goal is to diffuse the power struggle and if she starts a power struggle to not engage in it because like a tug of war, she's going to most likely pull harder once you start engaging in the power struggle.

 

I think there was one time where I put some clothes in a bag and told my son we had to leave. He decided to get dressed in the car in the preschool parking lot. He could have gotten dressed in the school bathroom as well, but he didn't want his friends to see. I didn't blame or shame him for this and tried to say as little as possible to let him learn from the experience. I didn't have this particular power struggle often with either of my kids so my son's example was a one time event.

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#95 of 116 Old 04-22-2013, 06:43 PM
 
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I don't want to sound like I'm arguing every point, I'm trying to understand how things like this can work.

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Originally Posted by KellyGlenn View Post

Because this is a long thread, I haven't taken the time to read through every post - just glanced at the first few pages.

 

I teach Positive Discipline workshops.  Here's a list of tools to prevent power struggles over clothes in the mornings.

 

1. Create a visual routine chart. Let the child help create the chart. Ask, "What's next on your chart?" so the child is the "boss" of the routine. Here's an article I wrote on this.

 

How does this work if it is not possible to always have the same routine? What about children who simply choose not to do anything?

 

2. Spend special time with each child each week (30 minutes to an hour) to build your relationship. During special time, focus on enjoying each other's company and building up your child. This really cuts down on many power struggles after special time is a routine thing.

 

This isn't always possible for everyone. How could this be used in families where there is no way to be alone with any of the children? What is a special time for one child might annoy another and cause arguments during one child's time if there is no one to watch the other kids.

 

3. Find time in the morning routine to do something with your daughter - either brush your teeth together or get dressed together or eat breakfast together. Again, the intent is to build the relationship, something that will help prevent power struggles and indirectly invite cooperation.

 

This would be great with one child or maybe two, how would it work when all the kids won't fit in the bathroom together to brush teeth or breakfast can't be at one time because kids refuse to follow their routine and do things on time?

 

4. Ask your child's help. Hugs, then ask, "Hey, I really need your help in getting to work on time (or getting you to school on time.) What are your ideas?

 

There isn't always (or often) time for many parents to stop and talk about things or listen to ideas. A family could come up with ideas together at a more convenient time but kids might decide in the moment they don't feel like doing what they agreed to anymore.

 

5. Find out feelings and validate her feelings: "So, you're not really wanting to get dressed this morning, love. What's going on?" Often this was enough to dissolve any resistance.

 

Same as #4.

 

I'm suggesting that the long range goal is to diffuse the power struggle and if she starts a power struggle to not engage in it because like a tug of war, she's going to most likely pull harder once you start engaging in the power struggle.

 

I think there was one time where I put some clothes in a bag and told my son we had to leave. He decided to get dressed in the car in the preschool parking lot. He could have gotten dressed in the school bathroom as well, but he didn't want his friends to see. I didn't blame or shame him for this and tried to say as little as possible to let him learn from the experience. I didn't have this particular power struggle often with either of my kids so my son's example was a one time event.

 

A one time thing isn't really a big deal. For the OP this might be a daily problem. In other families it might not be possible to grab clothes and go anyway. A child might choose to have a fit and refuse to even get in the car. They might refuse to get dressed when there. The parent might need to be somewhere and the child won't get dressed or into the car and the parent might not be physically able to carry the child to the car. Besides creating a routine what are some ways to keep these struggles from starting instead of having to deal with them when they come up?

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#96 of 116 Old 04-22-2013, 07:53 PM
 
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Using these tools definitely requires a shift in thinking from the way that traditional discipline "thinks."

 

My personal philosophy is that some behavior issues are completely due to typical development and the rest of behavior issues are about the parent-child relationship. I also believe that most children do want to cooperate when given the opportunity.

 

About the routine, I'm not sure how a morning routine might be different each morning. Most kids have to eat breakfast, get dressed, brush teeth and hair and get backpack. Creating an order for these to be done helps a child indirectly learn predictability and these types of daily routines are extremely healthy for social-emotional development.

 

I agree that spending special time with each child is challenging time wise for some families. I also believe that we work hard for those things we value. For example, I don't personally care for television, but many families put a high value on this and spend lots of time and energy around the television.

 

About talking about issues, yes family meetings are another good way to solve problems at times when the problem isn't happening. On another note, if there isn't much time to talk in the morning, then maybe more time needs to be allowed for the child to complete the routine.

 

I suggested lots of ideas because every family is different and some ideas won't work for every family.

 

I have used these types of tools for years and years and am so happy with the long term results. A mom asked for suggestions, so I offered some. These tools definitely aren't for everyone, but they definitely are gentle discipline tools.

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#97 of 116 Old 04-22-2013, 07:59 PM
 
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We also have a concept in Positive Discipline called mistaken goals.

 

Which words describe YOUR feelings when your daughter is misbehaving?

 

annoyed, irritated

 

worried, guilty

 

challenge, threatened, provoked, defeated

 

hurt, disappointed, disbelieving, disgusted

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#98 of 116 Old 04-22-2013, 09:54 PM
 
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(Although again I would say things have gotten much much better over time, and are much better now than they were when I started this thread.  When DD1 was around two she had multiple screaming fits every day over minor issues, now maybe it's once a day and they don't last nearly as long as they did.)

 

I like the idea of a gradation of boundaries, that is really interesting and sounds potentially useful.  I'm not really sure how it works with a temper tantrum though.  Like what is the smallest step down from a temper tantrum other than stop-crying?  She's not too bad at stop-crying if she has a reason to - e.g. if the reason for the tantrum is something I can actually fix and I tell her 'I can't understand you when you scream, so tell me calmly and I will help you out," she can pretty much control herself, but if the thing she is tantruming about is not something I can fix there doesn't seem to be any way to get her to calm down.  I just let her know I'm sorry she's angry, I can't give her what she wants, and then let her get over it in her own time.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on stepping her down from a tantrum.

 

Also sometimes when she is upset and I try to move her from angry to silly, then the silly just gets out of control and that's not something I want either.  Then when I try to tone down the silly she goes right back to angry.  Eg she is flipping out about getting the wrong cup or whatever, I try to redirect to silly ('We hate the monkey cup!" make silly monkey face etc.) then she might start laughing but also jumping on me making loud monkey noises in my face, grabbing my hair etc.  Then if I try to calm that down at all (quiet monkey?  no dice) she gets upset and returns to her tantrum.

 

 

 

Graduated boundaries for this issue: I think it would be more long-term than something that would be implemented during a specific tantrum.  Once a child is in a tantrum, in my experience, you aren't going to get anywhere until the child has calmed down.  That would be the focus at that time.  The graduated boundary might be more of what you consider acceptable in the morning.  Now, it might be okay that teeth aren't brushed, clothes don't match, and mom gives more assistance with getting things together.  Over time, you will work to build independence. 

 

So, how to build independence and increase cooperation: I think it can be helpful to specifically practice what you want to happen.  (Not actually when you are trying to get ready in the morning, but on the weekend, in the evening, or some other time when everyone is relaxed.)  Make a game of it, maybe even use a timer - timers make everything fun!  And, it might be good to do it with all the kids, not just the one having trouble.  Practice what it "look like, "feels like," and "sounds like" to do the morning routine.  Have her practice it both the "right" way and the "wrong" way and talk about it afterwards.  (Usually kids really LOVE to practice it the wrong way!  Only do that a couple of times though.  Do it the "right" way many times to get in ingrained.)

 

Since the situation that triggers the tantrum changes, you might have to actually have her practice what to do when she has a tantrum.  Even before that, though, you need to work with her on learning how to calm herself down.  I suspect that the tantrums actually scare her a little bit and she doesn't know how to calm herself down.  When she is calm and there is plenty of time, teach her some calming down strategies.  A few that I use:  Belly breathing (I find that the most tense kids have a very difficult time learning how to breathe in their belly.  I have some strategies for teaching this if you are interested.) Blowing up a pretend balloon, counting or singing a specific song, turning on a pretend faucet and letting the water (anger/stress) pour out, or doing some sort of task, like filling a bucket with blocks or squishing something  (I can explain any of these further, if needed.  The belly breathing is usually the best, but I teach kids several strategies and let them choose which one they want to use.  I even have a poster I made of the choices and I post it in the room if I have a student who needs it.  When you are teaching this, you need to talk about different scenarios where these strategies might be used and act them out.  Don't expect this to work perfectly the first time. She will need to try them out when a real tantrum hits.  After the tantrum, talk to her about which ones worked and which ones didn't   and how they made her feel.  Talk, talk, talk.  I keep saying that because, in the end, the solution will come from her.  She has to be the one to figure out what works for her, and you will only find that out by discussing it with her.  Encourage her and celebrate small successes, even if it is just a slightly shorter or less tantrum.

 

I'm glad to hear they are getting better.  Think on that and see if you can figure out WHY they are getting better. That will help you keep the momentum going.  I know that with a bunch of kids and lots of stress, sometimes it is easy to overlook successes, but it is important to reflect on them, to notice even the smallest improvement, so you can figure out what works.

 

I can't remember how old our daughter is and can't scroll back since I'm in the middle of this.  If she is old enough where you think she should be mostly over tantrums by this point, I would really start trying to find the root cause.  You said that it isn't at a consistent time of day or always about the same type of problem.  There still might be a common thread, though.  Seems like a control issue. . . If she is trying to assert control over these seemingly insignificant things, is it because she feels like she doesn't have control in other areas?  Is it overstimulation?  Is she seeking attention for some reason?  Maybe there is a food sensitivity - lots of foods can make children have difficulty controlling themselves - and parents are often really surprised at how much food can affect behavior.  (Common foods that can cause disruptive behavior: dairy, gluten, corn, soy, artificial flavors, artificial colors, artificial sweeteners, MSG, sugar, etc.)

 

 

Anyway, hope you are able to find something useful.  And remember, she isn't doing this to make your life difficult.  This is probably the best she can do right now.  But, with time, practice, and support, she will improve.
 


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#99 of 116 Old 04-23-2013, 05:52 AM
 
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Once a kid hits tantrum stage, it's all over as far as learning goes. Routines are meant to be stuff that is a "given" and will lesson tantrums once the kid is used to, and agrees to the routine.

 

I don't understand the idea that it would be impossible to have a "schedule" even if you do different things on different days.

 

KISS (I say silly for the last)

 

Every Morning Routine: wake up, eat breakfast, bring in dishes, brush teeth, wash face, put on new clothes. Done--then leave for activity in 10 minutes, or four hours. No tv/playing until these things are done.

 

Leave the house Routine: go to the toilet, put on shoes, fill/grab water bottles or backpacks.

 

We tend to over think these things, and let kids drag them out if we are stressed about something "different" that we need to do.

 

There will always  be 30 minutes in the week that you can spend alone with a child, it's just a matter of doing it--shoot split it into 3 10 minute segments if you have to. We have 4 kiddos, and DH gets home about two hours before bedtime most days--we spend that time at dinner prep and homework. It doesn't have to be a fun "play date" if you really can't swing it--at this point I have a few chores that I do with the older two and we spend that time talking. Trust me, no one is mad that they don't get to rake leaves, or clean bathrooms, or fold laundry but it's still a special time to chat with the kid who is joining me in work at that moment. I learn a lot about their lives this way.

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#100 of 116 Old 04-23-2013, 12:00 PM
 
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Regarding the bike incident and my previous suggestion of teaching her (and practicing) what you want her to do. . . I think the focus should be on how to handle when things don't go as expected or she doesn't like when something happens.

 

One thing I teach is that you can't solve your problem until you calm down.  I give examples when that is a problem for ME. My favorite is a time when I dropped my keys in the little area between my car seat and car door.  I was running late and couldn't get my fingers down in the crevice to reach them.  I tell them how I became angry and frustrated - and even act out how I acted.  "Nothing is working!  It isn't fair!  Why does everything go wrong for me?!" I explain how I kept doing the same thing over and over - trying to jam my fingers in the crevice.  I was so upset, I couldn't THINK.  I demonstrated self talk - I showed them how I talked myself down from a fit:  "Sonja, you are doing the same thing over and over again and it isn't working.  You need to calm down and think about it to solve your problem."  I explained that once I calmed down, I was able to realize I needed to get out of the car, shift the seat back, and grab my keys.  It was an easy problem to solve once I am calm.  I talk a lot with them about times they got frustrated and couldn't think.  We keep coming back to the theme that you need to calm down to solve your problems.  (That is when start practicing calming down techniques.)

 

So, anyway, I've already touched on this a bit. What I'm trying to point out here is that she wanted to tell you not to ride the bike.  She couldn't tell you that because she was not calm.  Try working with her to help her understand that when she throws a tantrum, no one knows what she needs.  Practice what she should have done in this situation:  "Mom, that is my bike. Don't ride it!"    If she would've said this, you would have known to stop.  She needs help understanding how to communicate her needs when she is upset.  This can be practiced - I've seen it work many times.  You also need to notice when she DOES stay calm and communicate her needs.  Point it out when it happens and say something like: Thank you for telling me!  It really helps when you tell me that. . . " 

 

You aren't going to be able to tiptoe around her "hair trigger" very successfully, but you can teach her how to tell you what her needs are so it isn't a guessing game for you. 

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#101 of 116 Old 04-23-2013, 01:52 PM
 
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my dd is 3 and has a firecracker personality - we manage by always giving a choice - normally do you want the blue or red shirt etc. But yes sometimes the choice is do you want to get dressed and go to school or do you want me to dress you and carry you to school crying? I'm not proud of it but my dd also responds well to the ok well you stay home by yourself and I'll go to school thing, - works in a multiple variety of situations.

 

The most succesful thing is the 1,2 3 approach, ie: please stop watching tv to do..,

i asked you to stop watching tv, If I ask you again I'm turning it off,

tv turned off. No punishments ever - but relatable consequences - if there isn't a logical consequence then I really question if there is a need to intervene at all.

 

I think also at some point you have to accept that pc or not - you are the parent and the leaders of the household and things need to be done, and just do them even if there is a back drop of crying. I made it very clear to my dd from birth pretty much that she will never be made to do anything that wasn't essential so if I'm telling her it has to be done then i mean it. (ie you must bath at least once a week, but daily would be better or you must wash your hair before going to the hairdresser)

 

So far we haven't had to use time out. I am not an "alpha mom" , I don't hit and I don't yell - but I do have a tone, and facial expression that lets her know that while her opinions are considered very helpful, I have the final say.

 

oh i forgot to add - I really do pick my battles - I have very low expectations of behaviour and I'm forever amazed at how well she does. My first thought is always - approach with kindness, we go from there...

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#102 of 116 Old 04-23-2013, 05:54 PM
 
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I have 5 children.  I am not a perfect parent.  I am not perfectly calm and patient all of the time.  (Is anyone, haha?)  Generally speaking, this is what works for us:  1) we try to keep our rules simple: be respectful of other people, listen and respond appropriately, ask mom/dad before doing something/going somewhere outside the house (safety stuff); 2) make the expectations known before the situation starts (when we get in the car, we will buckle up, when we get to the store, we will all stay together, etc.) 3) lay out the consequences for failing to meet the expectations.  

 

I think a big part of successful parenting/discipline is communicating your expectations to the child in an age-appropriate manner.  If you want your child to not jump on your furniture, then let them know that the couch is for sitting on, they can jump on the tramp, or whatever.  When we have to be out the door early in the morning, I will tell the children what time we need to leave, remind them to get their gear together before bed, and help them figure out what they need to do to be ready on time.  If I need the older children to help with the younger children, I let them know exactly what I need them to do.  I have one child who is an expert dawdler, so I will build in extra time (I don't tell her this, it is just my own sanity saver) for her, and set a visual timer to give her a reminder of how much time she has (a reminder that is not *me* nagging at her).

 

When life doesn't go as planned (which is frequently with 5 children, let me tell you), I try as much as possible to let natural consequences take over.  Ex:  if you don't get out of bed and get dressed on time, you will not have time for breakfast (or maybe only have time to grab a banana for the road).  If you failed to practice your piano lesson, you will have to explain to your teacher why you don't know your lesson (or if it's really bad, you will have to call your teacher and explain why you won't be there for your lesson).  If you decided to ignore mom's advice to wear your boots in the mud, you will have to clean your shoes.  It is ok to let children fail and feel the consequences.  We learn a lot from our mistakes, even though it is often not particularly pleasant.  I don't mind allowing my children to struggle a little, or feel a little pain from their failures (even though I would rather they not have to deal with that).  IMO, it is an important part of learning to live in the real world.  Small doses of failure prepare them to handle life in a mature fashion.

 

If there isn't a direct natural consequence, sometimes I will assign an extra chore.  If the offense had to do with a sibling, I might tell the offender to serve the other sibling in some manner (straighten their shoes, clear their place after dinner, etc.)  My littlest ones often have major attitude issues over very little things.  I'm sure you are well aware that it is impossible to reason with them at that point, lol.  If they are completely out of control, I make them spend time in their rooms until they have calmed down enough to talk.  Someone pointed out that with all their toys, it isn't really punishment to put them in their rooms.  My response was that punishment isn't my goal; I just want them to calm down enough to communicate with me.  I have found that often just getting on their level, listening to their concerns, validating their emotions and experiences goes a long way towards short-circuiting their tantrums (not always, of course).  Sometimes, I just let them scream until they are done.  Sometimes, I have to walk away in order to not physically harm them, because I have completely run out of patience.  

 

I think the bottom line in "expecting" your child to do something is telling them.  Repeatedly.  Consistently.  Frequently.  And either finding some consequence to not meeting the expectation that you can both live with, or a positive thing for succeeding. (Carrot and stick, every child's currency is different.)   Children need to know what is expected (they have very little control of their lives, and it helps them feel secure to know where their boundaries are), and what will happen if they don't do it.    No one is perfect, but if you can give them control in small choices, let them know what you need, and respond appropriately when they fail, life will be much smoother for everyone.  The other thing is that when they DO meet your expectations, let them know!  We all like to know when we have succeeded, and children are no different.  Children want to please their parents, and when they do the right thing, it is equally important to let them know (or more so) as disciplining them when they don't do the right thing.  I don't think there is a miraculous way to  get your children to do what you expect, it takes a lot of work to help them learn how to behave appropriately, and it is important to remember that there will be plenty of failures along the way.

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#103 of 116 Old 04-23-2013, 06:06 PM
 
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I forgot to add in my long novel above, that I also really try to focus on positive statements:  sit on the chair, instead of don't stand on the chair; or, walk in the house, instead of no running.  I find that to be a lot more effective in directing my children's behaviour.  I also had an epiphany one day about the way I speak to my children.  It occurred to me that I was speaking to my children in an incredibly disrespectful manner, in a way that I would never address my husband, friends, parents, etc.  I decided that if I wouldn't speak to another adult in that manner, why would I do that to my child, who is far more precious to me, and still learning about relationships?  That understanding dramatically altered my perception of my interactions with my children.  Like I said in my earlier post, I am not perfect (not even close), but I do attempt to approach discipline from a respectful standpoint.  One day, my children will be grown up, and I would like to be their friend at that point.  

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#104 of 116 Old 04-23-2013, 07:53 PM
 
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I forgot to add in my long novel above, that I also really try to focus on positive statements:  sit on the chair, instead of don't stand on the chair; or, walk in the house, instead of no running.  I find that to be a lot more effective in directing my children's behaviour.  I also had an epiphany one day about the way I speak to my children.  It occurred to me that I was speaking to my children in an incredibly disrespectful manner, in a way that I would never address my husband, friends, parents, etc.  I decided that if I wouldn't speak to another adult in that manner, why would I do that to my child, who is far more precious to me, and still learning about relationships?  That understanding dramatically altered my perception of my interactions with my children.  Like I said in my earlier post, I am not perfect (not even close), but I do attempt to approach discipline from a respectful standpoint.  One day, my children will be grown up, and I would like to be their friend at that point.  


Yes to all the above!!
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#105 of 116 Old 04-25-2013, 11:30 AM
 
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yes to all said

Over the years I realize that we rely so much on speech. the words we use. and the positive word does not seem to come easily. It takes some thinking to always come up with a positive way of saying it. Encouragement . That's the key. As you said it's over and over again but always with a new little something of encouragement. If toddlers especially did not have us to try out their new tricks, words, facial expressions on, what would they do. Also they are copying just what they see around them. So if they see negativity then they think that's it. Many of us send the little ones off to day care. There it's all about routine and regularity in a pleasant way. Then they come home. It's a great chance for them to see if they can get away with some trick they saw at daycare with out getting in trouble. We always fall for it (smile). It's not an easy task but as we relax and think about being positive in our speech suddenly you see it all going the way we would like it. 

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#106 of 116 Old 04-25-2013, 02:03 PM
 
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The subconscious does not understand the words "not" or "try" . Young children make most, if not all, their decisions from the subconscious. Therefore, it is important to word things in the positive (avoiding the word "not"), so as to best communicate with young children. And they are more likely to do what we ask, as well. It could be a simple matter of not hearing the "not".
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#107 of 116 Old 04-27-2013, 04:43 PM
 
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Has it been mentioned yet that maybe your DC just needs to break down from time to time as some sort of release?  


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#108 of 116 Old 04-28-2013, 08:49 AM
 
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Has it been mentioned yet that maybe your DC just needs to break down from time to time as some sort of release?  

I agree with this. I think it's really important to remember, especially when they're having fits about things that strike us as strange. I have one who does this: You can make a consequence of no dessert b/c he wasn't using nice table manners and he's fine. But send him to timeout for throwing toys (EVERY DAY), and sometimes he'll have a complete breakdown.

 

I also agree with eliminating the struggle and just laying out the expectations for her. This is how the morning is going to go; you can do your part, or you can see what happens when you don't. You don't come and eat breakfast when I say to? You don't get to eat. We don't take food in the car. You don't want to turn of the TV and get dressed? That's okay. I'll help turn off the TV, and you go get dressed. No? Well, we're leaving in five minutes, whether you're ready or not. Then gather up the clothes (or not) and put them in the car in whatever they're wearing, and off to school. Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day. That has only happened once in my house. The boys were feeding off each other and decided that they could gang up on my. One insisted the whole way to school what fun it was, the other cried desperately. I sent the first into class in his PJs and he came home dressed in his clothes, saying, "I'm never doing THAT again." The other managed to get his clothes on so fast in the car that he was dressed by the time it was time to get out and get into his class. He never argued again either. And these are kids who argue about EVERYTHING, and still do. Until they see the consequences. The minor stuff that "only" gets a timeout is still an issue. But then, they're kids, not robots.

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#109 of 116 Old 04-28-2013, 04:00 PM
 
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I agree with this. I think it's really important to remember, especially when they're having fits about things that strike us as strange. I have one who does this: You can make a consequence of no dessert b/c he wasn't using nice table manners and he's fine. But send him to timeout for throwing toys (EVERY DAY), and sometimes he'll have a complete breakdown.

I also agree with eliminating the struggle and just laying out the expectations for her. This is how the morning is going to go; you can do your part, or you can see what happens when you don't. You don't come and eat breakfast when I say to? You don't get to eat. We don't take food in the car. You don't want to turn of the TV and get dressed? That's okay. I'll help turn off the TV, and you go get dressed. No? Well, we're leaving in five minutes, whether you're ready or not. Then gather up the clothes (or not) and put them in the car in whatever they're wearing, and off to school. Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day. That has only happened once in my house. The boys were feeding off each other and decided that they could gang up on my. One insisted the whole way to school what fun it was, the other cried desperately. I sent the first into class in his PJs and he came home dressed in his clothes, saying, "I'm never doing THAT again." The other managed to get his clothes on so fast in the car that he was dressed by the time it was time to get out and get into his class. He never argued again either. And these are kids who argue about EVERYTHING, and still do. Until they see the consequences. The minor stuff that "only" gets a timeout is still an issue. But then, they're kids, not robots.


Why should the teachers get saddled with the consequences?!? It's not the teacher's fault!
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#110 of 116 Old 04-29-2013, 07:10 AM
 
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Why should the teachers get saddled with the consequences?!? It's not the teacher's fault!

"Then IF the teachers feel like helping them get dressed, they can. Otherwise, it's school-in-PJs day."

 

What part of IF makes it the teachers' fault? If they don't have the time, desire, or ability to get the clothes on the kids, then they don't have to. I don't really care. And the only reason I even provided clothing for them to change into was so that the CHILD could dress himself when he felt like it. And he felt like it. And did it all himself. So the teachers didn't have to do anything. I let them know it was more than okay with me if I picked him up and he was still in his jammies. It was HIS choice. Not mine, not the teachers'. It's not even really a consequence. It's, "It's time to get dressed if you want to be wearing clothes when we leave. No? Okay. Your choice, but we're leaving in 5 minutes." I don't care what they do. I have a meeting I'm not going to be late for just b/c a child has his own agenda. He can have it on his own terms, just as I have mine.

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#111 of 116 Old 05-02-2013, 10:54 AM
 
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I posted this and thought the OP may want to read the article: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1382709/there-is-not-always-a-fix-for-the-difficult-child


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#112 of 116 Old 05-02-2013, 01:42 PM
 
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I read the article, and it got me thinking. From the child's perspective, it's the mother being difficult. More accurately, it is a difficult relationship. Like the person who is nails on a chalkboard for you, but it the best friend of a good friend of yours. You wonder, "How can that be?" But it is. Some personalities chafe. Others mesh. Is there blame? I don't think so.
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#113 of 116 Old 05-02-2013, 01:46 PM
 
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::taking notes::

Writing about life-long learning and discovery at: www.neoapprentice.com 

:: A neo-apprentice knows there are no true masters. 

 

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#114 of 116 Old 05-09-2013, 04:52 AM
 
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I haven't read the replies so I apologize if I'm repeating.

I am exactly that parent who says that she expects certain things and doesn't give choices. I will admit that I seem to be blessed with a child who was born with a fairly calm and agreeable personality. I'm no expert but this is what I do/did ... 

 

I never ever bribe.

DD does things because she wants to, she has been taught it's the right thing to do, or has been taught it's something that just needs to be done. I think it's a horrible precedent to set that you should only do something because you are rewarded. I believe it encourages selfishness. Also, at some point, won't we run out of reasonable things to offer? As kids get older a cookie isn't going to cut it anymore. 

I do encourage good behavior. I say positive things for positive actions like -that was so nice of you for helping your friend or setting the table - and I do say thank you often for helpful things done. 

 

I never ever hit, do not use my size over her or threaten/scare her with unreasonable consequences like permanent loss of toys she really loves. To me there's a big difference between sit and calm down for five minutes and do what I say or I'll throw your lovey away.

 

I never ever pose something as a question or choice if it is not one. 

Unless there is a choice, I do not present it as one. If need her to get dressed - I say, please get dressed. If I need her to brush her teeth, I say, please brush your teeth. There is no discussion, there is no fighting, no negotiating. If she threw a tantrum, I would just walk away. If she was truly upset, I would recognize her feelings, let her know I understood she was frustrated and would give a simple explanation as to why it needed to be done and then say again, please do so and so. 

On the flip side of this, I give choices that are actually available as often as possible. Do you want this instead of that for lunch? This game or this book? Especially when she was little, I tried really hard to find ways to make her feel like she had some say in things.    

 

I'm trying to figure out the right way to word this. I am not afraid to impose my beliefs on my child. I've heard a lot of talk in AP circles about not influencing your children and letting them learn everything on their own so they can be their own person, not forcing your views of the world on them, never make them feel guilty, etc. I don't believe in that. I think there are certain things that are just completely unacceptable. They are just bad things to do, you should feel badly when you do them and I think even young children can understand that.  Like hurting others, physically or emotionally. I wouldn't say I would shame a child but I think a child (or anyone for that matter) should feel badly when they've hurt someone or broken a major rule. It's actually kind of bizarre to me why anyone wouldn't want that reaction. I don't mean to dwell and feel awful to the point of depression but to instill a value system in children that others rights and feelings are just as valid as their own and need to be respected at all times.

 

I think the biggest thing for me though is mutual respect. I truly believe in my heart that even though I can be firm with rules and can achieve a desired outcome just by a look sometimes, that dd behaves the way she does because I always try my best to be respectful of her. I expect her not to hit so I never hit, I expect her not to yell at me, so I try my hardest to never raise my voice at her. If I do, I admit I am wrong and I give a real apology. She has a good relationship with dh but he does not talk to her the same way I do and I notice a big difference in how she responds to him. When they disagree about something, she uses a tone she would never use with me.

Now that she's six there is a lot more give and take in our relationship. I want her to be patient and wait nicely when I need to finish something so if she asks me for time to finish a game or something before we go out I try my hardest to accommodate that. I let her know how much her feelings matter to me. She has a lot more control over her free time now. She knows the outer limits of things she should and shouldn't be doing and I trust her to act within those so she doesn't feel micromanaged or like she has no choices. I go out of my way to find things she will enjoy and take her to places she will find interesting, etc. I homeschool -so we are together all the time- and we can go days, maybe even a week or so without there being an issue between us. 

 

Wow... I didn't mean to go on like that. I'm pregnant and have insomnia!

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#115 of 116 Old 05-09-2013, 05:49 PM
 
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I haven't read the replies so I apologize if I'm repeating.

I am exactly that parent who says that she expects certain things and doesn't give choices. I will admit that I seem to be blessed with a child who was born with a fairly calm and agreeable personality. I'm no expert but this is what I do/did ... 

 

I never ever bribe.

DD does things because she wants to, she has been taught it's the right thing to do, or has been taught it's something that just needs to be done. I think it's a horrible precedent to set that you should only do something because you are rewarded. I believe it encourages selfishness. Also, at some point, won't we run out of reasonable things to offer? As kids get older a cookie isn't going to cut it anymore. 

I do encourage good behavior. I say positive things for positive actions like -that was so nice of you for helping your friend or setting the table - and I do say thank you often for helpful things done. 

 

I never ever hit, do not use my size over her or threaten/scare her with unreasonable consequences like permanent loss of toys she really loves. To me there's a big difference between sit and calm down for five minutes and do what I say or I'll throw your lovey away.

 

I never ever pose something as a question or choice if it is not one. 

Unless there is a choice, I do not present it as one. If need her to get dressed - I say, please get dressed. If I need her to brush her teeth, I say, please brush your teeth. There is no discussion, there is no fighting, no negotiating. If she threw a tantrum, I would just walk away. If she was truly upset, I would recognize her feelings, let her know I understood she was frustrated and would give a simple explanation as to why it needed to be done and then say again, please do so and so. 

On the flip side of this, I give choices that are actually available as often as possible. Do you want this instead of that for lunch? This game or this book? Especially when she was little, I tried really hard to find ways to make her feel like she had some say in things.    

 

I'm trying to figure out the right way to word this. I am not afraid to impose my beliefs on my child. I've heard a lot of talk in AP circles about not influencing your children and letting them learn everything on their own so they can be their own person, not forcing your views of the world on them, never make them feel guilty, etc. I don't believe in that. I think there are certain things that are just completely unacceptable. They are just bad things to do, you should feel badly when you do them and I think even young children can understand that.  Like hurting others, physically or emotionally. I wouldn't say I would shame a child but I think a child (or anyone for that matter) should feel badly when they've hurt someone or broken a major rule. It's actually kind of bizarre to me why anyone wouldn't want that reaction. I don't mean to dwell and feel awful to the point of depression but to instill a value system in children that others rights and feelings are just as valid as their own and need to be respected at all times.

 

I think the biggest thing for me though is mutual respect. I truly believe in my heart that even though I can be firm with rules and can achieve a desired outcome just by a look sometimes, that dd behaves the way she does because I always try my best to be respectful of her. I expect her not to hit so I never hit, I expect her not to yell at me, so I try my hardest to never raise my voice at her. If I do, I admit I am wrong and I give a real apology. She has a good relationship with dh but he does not talk to her the same way I do and I notice a big difference in how she responds to him. When they disagree about something, she uses a tone she would never use with me.

Now that she's six there is a lot more give and take in our relationship. I want her to be patient and wait nicely when I need to finish something so if she asks me for time to finish a game or something before we go out I try my hardest to accommodate that. I let her know how much her feelings matter to me. She has a lot more control over her free time now. She knows the outer limits of things she should and shouldn't be doing and I trust her to act within those so she doesn't feel micromanaged or like she has no choices. I go out of my way to find things she will enjoy and take her to places she will find interesting, etc. I homeschool -so we are together all the time- and we can go days, maybe even a week or so without there being an issue between us. 

 

Wow... I didn't mean to go on like that. I'm pregnant and have insomnia!

Very nicely said.  

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#116 of 116 Old 05-09-2013, 11:50 PM
 
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didn't read every post, so sorry if there are repititions..

 

first, my two older kids have adhd, that comes, apparently with a good dose of oppositional behaviour. i never wanted to walk the consequences and punishment path, but sometimes just don't have another way bag.gif

 

we had a situation like taht were i could not get ds dressed, but had too. i took him with me without cloth, and it was horrible, he was crying so badly. at the preschool i asked him if he was ready to get dressed, and he was, so, he got dressed. But he was still crying and being ashamed, and I did not like this approach at all. There was no other option though, so I explained that to him, and kissed him and made up with him, and left. 

 

In general we try to do "democratic parenting" (thomas gordon way) and so afterwards we had a conference about morning routines, and what to do about this dressing problem. We came to an agreement: 

1. we choose the stuff in the evening. He can choose what he wants to wear. 

2. If he fails to get his stuff ready, he can ask for help, and a parent will get him things.

3. If he forgets to choose his clothing, and only remembers in the morning, Mom or Dad are going to choose, and he has to put the clothing on 

 

He agreed and signed it. No problems since. (he is four btw) at least not with dressing ;) but the undressed to preschool was pretty traumatic for him. 

 

in my experience, it is very, very important to not get into power struggles with these strong willed kids. they win :)

 

 

Oh, and P.S.: I am one of these alpha personalities. If I say: Everybody listen to me! everybody does. Except my kids. So, that doesn't help. They are alpha personalities, too joy.gif


Trin with DH , DD(7) dust.gif and DS(5) jumpers.gif,  DD(2) energy.gifdog2.gifbelly.gif(due 5/14)

I am not regularly online at the moment due to the above ...

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