Is child punishment ever necessary? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 of 170 Old 08-09-2013, 03:09 PM
 
MamadeRumi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post

I would argue that this example is a bit fuzzy, too.  A parent would probably have made a purposeful decision to not go out and collect the toys so they wouldn't get rained on or stolen.  For me, because the parent manipulates a situation, then it ceases to be a simple, natural consequence.  I'd say more appropriately that a child who keeps dropping a teddy bear for the parent to pick up finally drops it off a bridge.  Irretrievable.  That's a natural consequence, unmanipulated by the parent.

 

The more I read this thread, the more I realize that I do think punishment (if that's the term I have to use) is sometimes necessary.  I don't use physical punishment or shame, but I do think it is necessary to teach my DS that sometimes bad things will happen if one does certain things. In the teddy bear example above, I just think of how heart broken my DS would be if he dropped one of his beloved stuffed animals off a bridge and it couldn't be retrieved.  And how unfair would that be if he had repeatedly dropped his stuffed animal and I had always picked it up for him.  He would have had no warning that there might be negative consequences to his behavior, and now it is too late for him to learn that lesson because teddy is gone.  I would much, much prefer the following scenario-- he drops teddy (probably for the umpteenth time), I pick it up, hand it back to him, and tell him that if he keeps dropping Teddy I will have to put Teddy away to protect him from getting lost or hurt.  He then drops Teddy again and I put Teddy away.  Yes, my son would be sad.  Yes, there would probably be tears.  Yes, it was a parentally manipulated situation.  But his sadness would be temporary. I could tell him that when we were in a safer situation, or when he felt ready to hold onto Teddy, Teddy could come back.  And if at some point he still did drop Teddy off a bridge, at least he wouldn't have been completely blindsided -- he would have already been exposed to the idea that his actions had consequences.  If that is punishment, then I guess I think punishment is not only necessary, but really the kinder, fairer, more respectful way to treat my son.  He's 3.  I can't expect him to know the negative consequences that are out there if I don't teach him about them.  I can try to teach them in a gentle way.  And of course this is without even touching on the really horrible consequences, like the consequences of running out into the street, or running up and petting a strange dog without first asking the owner if the dog wants to be petted.  Of course I would love to keep my dear boy from experiencing any sorrow, but if a little, temporary sorrow is going to keep him from experiencing much worse sorrow or pain, then that's part of my job.

MamadeRumi is offline  
#122 of 170 Old 08-09-2013, 03:44 PM
 
MissAnthrope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)

We don't punish or discipline.  Etymologically, parent means one who brings forth-- the same root, in Latin, as the word for giving birth.  Being the parent doesn't mean being the bad guy, being the sahib, being in control.  It means raising up, giving to the light, being the guide and guardian.  When chips are down and we are empty-nesters, we will not be judged on how well we controlled our children or how polite our tweens were, but rather on the adults we brought forth from our parentage.  So we keep a long perspective.

 

We only do things by force and totally override their consent in matters of unacceptable risk to health and safety, but even then it's usually just the toddlers.  We will take scissors away from a child who cannot use them safely, we will pick them up and carry them across streets if they change their minds in the middle of the crosswalk, we do insist on baths following diaper explosions, etc.  I'm actually hard-pressed to think of an example where I needed to do this for a child older than five-- usually they can take care of it themselves or respond to a verbal reminder.

 

We do point out the natural consequences where they might be difficult for a child to see/understand, e.g. "When you say things that hurt me, I don't want to talk with you." "Look at his face!  When you hit him, you hurt him."  "If you help me so I can finish the laundry faster, I will have enough time to drive you to the library."  "When you help me by getting into your own seat and getting buckled, it's easier for us to go fun places in the car!"  "If you do not take adequate care of your teeth, you will get cavities."  "You are being too rough, so I am going to take the baby to the other room.  You can stay here and have your own space until you are ready to be gentle and kind again."

 

We also make suggestions and remind them of their choices.  "I think you are tired.  It's hard to use your words when you're tired!  Would you like to take a nap?"  "If you clean your room now, your friends can play in there with you when they come over, and you won't have to bring your toys out here where the baby might find them.  I am available to help you clean your room until 2pm."  "Maybe you can throw the ball to each other instead of taking turns by yourselves."  "Your face is very dirty.  I think you should wash it.  It will feel so nice once it is clean!"

 

We also make deals.  "How about you wait patiently while I finish this typing, and then we go to the park?"  "What if I pick up all the blocks, while you put away the books?"  "Can you trade a piece of pizza for a handful of french fries?"  "I would prefer to pick you up at 9 so I can get to bed on time.  If you can promise you will be ready to go right when I pull up at 10 o'clock sharp, that would be okay."  "You may have some blackberries, but they need to stay in the kitchen so they don't stain the carpet.  Deal?"

 

We model the behaviors we would like to see in our children, and we talk to them about what these behaviors mean and why we use them.  When we don't behave well, we explain our mistakes, we apologize, and we find a way to make amends.  I think this is the MOST important part of raising children-- showing them that you walk the walk.

 

We also don't coach emotional statements-- we never instruct our children to say they apologize, thank, forgive, or love.  These are for them to decide.  Admittedly, this has gotten us the stink-eye at the sandbox from other parents, but you know what?  I'm not raising my children to be congenial or to conform.  I am raising them to be responsible, compassionate, and self-aware-- and those long-term goals are not served by instructing them to model false emotions.

filamentary likes this.
MissAnthrope is offline  
#123 of 170 Old 08-09-2013, 04:13 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,747
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)

MA, I think it was really nice how you followed your first statement about not punishing or disciplining with all those examples.  As it happens, everything you described sounds like discipline to me. Of course, it's all fine if that's not how you view it. I think this is another example of us having different terms or views of very similar forms of parenting -- because it sounds like you and I parent (discipline orngtongue.gif ) the same way. 

 

In our house we do encourage politeness but in the form of genuine gratitude, sincere regret, or simple courtesy.  I think your description of "walking the walk" is the best way that kids learn this.  

 

When it comes time for a reminder of manners, I choose to remind DC what's happening rather than what I want her to do. So, I may say, "DC, your friend is leaving," which helps remind her to thank her friend for coming and etc. I'm sure I have never told DC to thank her friends for coming over. But, I may have remarked once or twice how nice it makes me feel when kids thank me for having them. I also thank people for having me after I leave their home. I'm sure that's what DC is really learning from. 

 

As far as our toddler goes...she's easy going. I was reminded of this thread the other day when she was climbing a rickety book shelf (with just toys so not able to do major damage if it fell).  Rather than say "no" I just walked over and offered to hold it for her while she got that urge out of her system. While climbing it, she realized how flimsy it was so she was able to learn the lesson that climbing it wasn't such a great plan. 

 

Sometimes I think the cries of, "How else will they ever learn," are selling kids short a bit.  


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#124 of 170 Old 08-09-2013, 05:18 PM
 
akgirls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Do you have statistics to back up the claim that lack of punishment is positively correlated to incarceration?  Brain research and child development research indicate the very opposite.  People are moral and productive when they are intrinsically motivated instead of extrinsically motivated (the result of forced obedience).

Backroads likes this.
akgirls is offline  
#125 of 170 Old 08-10-2013, 05:23 AM
 
Serafina33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Far from home!
Posts: 1,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

We definitely use a system of consequences, both of rewards and loss of privileges. The four of us sat down and wrote it together, everyone agreeing on each point and everyone signed it to make the point that everyone felt the "rules" and expectations were fair.  The rewards that they can work up to earning are extremely motivating and fun for everyone when they achieve them (fun outings, etc) and the loss of privileges are painful enough (meaning stuff they enjoy going away, nothing harsh) to provide motivation to do their best to resist urges to hit or kick one another, or curse or slam doors when their emotions get fired up....

 

It's posted clearly on the wall and it's necessary so that neither brother can claim that their brother 'gets away with everything' and receives preferential treatment.  We have to be so precisely systematic about how we treat them so that neither starts feeling like they are getting treated less fairly.  Very competitive boys born close together, so the rivalry can eat my sanity alive if I don't manage to keep things exactly equal in all things.  

Backroads likes this.

nak.gif Relentless mommy of 2 mancubs, 8 & 10 years old.... and now a little lady (Oct 2013)!      computergeek2.gif   http://relentlessmommy.com   
Serafina33 is offline  
#126 of 170 Old 08-10-2013, 07:20 AM
 
SweetSilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Westfarthing
Posts: 5,130
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by MamadeRumi View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SweetSilver View Post
  I'd say more appropriately that a child who keeps dropping a teddy bear for the parent to pick up finally drops it off a bridge.  Irretrievable.  That's a natural consequence, unmanipulated by the parent.

 

  And how unfair would that be if he had repeatedly dropped his stuffed animal and I had always picked it up for him.  He would have had no warning that there might be negative consequences to his behavior, and now it is too late for him to learn that lesson because teddy is gone.  I would much, much prefer the following scenario-- he drops teddy (probably for the umpteenth time), I pick it up, hand it back to him, and tell him that if he keeps dropping Teddy I will have to put Teddy away to protect him from getting lost or hurt.  He then drops Teddy again and I put Teddy away.  Yes, my son would be sad.  Yes, there would probably be tears.  Yes, it was a parentally manipulated situation.  But his sadness would be temporary. I could tell him that when we were in a safer situation, or when he felt ready to hold onto Teddy, Teddy could come back.  And if at some point he still did drop Teddy off a bridge, at least he wouldn't have been completely blindsided -- he would have already been exposed to the idea that his actions had consequences.  

Interesting take on the scenario.  But imagine that I as parent don't mind picking up teddy (I know, I know) and that surprise! the teddy gets thrown off the bridge.  Tears, perhaps even anger, empathy from mom.  But is there really a problem for a child discovering something harsh like this?  No.  Because we can't prepare them emotionally, or even logically, for all possible consequences.  Conversely, I wouldn't keep silent on the possibilities, either.  But I don't think putting teddy up to possibly prevent a huge emotional impact is necessary.  Not that I disapprove, either.

 

Anyway, now that I've made myself perfectly clear 2whistle.gif I think I'll go find myself some caffeine.....


Give me a few minutes while I caffeinate.
SweetSilver is offline  
#127 of 170 Old 08-10-2013, 09:35 AM
 
One_Girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,735
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
This is an interesting thread and a hard question IMO. I think punishment and consequences are the same thing (with the exception of natural consequences since they are not imposed at all). I really think that whether punishment/consequences are necessary depends on the family. There are times when I have imposed a consequence to get an annoying behavior to stop before I go over the edge and react harshly. I think it is much better to gently stop something from happening by removing the child/object/food/etc... than it is to continue allowing something that is triggering you until you lose control and slap or spank your child. There are some parents who have very few triggers and much better control over them who may never need to resort to imposing their will on their child's though so it isn't always necessary.
IdentityCrisisMama likes this.
One_Girl is offline  
#128 of 170 Old 08-10-2013, 01:58 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,747
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)

Slight side track...

 

I heard an NPR show today about the Milgram experiment (the one where the subjects were tested on how far they would obey "orders" and shock their peers). Apparently the experiment is pretty well misunderstood or misrepresented as an "obedience study" when, in fact, the study shows the opposite (according to this show).  What the scholar on the show said is that subjects were willing to inflict pretty gruesome amounts of pain on their peers (65% in one set-up) but only if the felt they were doing it in the name of science (intrinsic motivation). Once given a direct order (extrinsic motivation) ZERO percent of participants were willing to comply or continue with the experiment.  Food for thought...


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#129 of 170 Old 08-10-2013, 04:11 PM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,778
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)

i've been also thinking about this thread. i think there's a difference between discipline methods with a under 5 to 7 year olds and over 5 to 7 year olds. i use 5 to 7 because i have noticed with kids around me that most kids around that age have their round of 'teen' behaviour. the i hate yous come up, you dont understand me, hitting, tantrums all come back for a short time. and boom the moment that stage is over the child has matured hugely in leaps and bounds and yet not too much physically.

 

i think it makes a huge difference when you use the term punishment for a 3 year old vs. say a 6 year old or a 14 year old. 

 

esp. around 10 - 12. now i dont use punishment not because i dont want to. but also because dd's personality lends to that. 

 

however i am entering unchartered territories. dd is mature for her age and is showing tween/teen behaviour. and its more and more becoming apparent to me that i am not sure if i am punishing or not. i am very careful to make sure my boundaries ARE about safety regardign my child. its not a head trip of mine. am i truly focusing on dd or has she triggered something within me and i am reacting. 

 

sometimes reading this thread i am lost as to what IS punishment. here i am thinking about punishment between parent and child. not the outside world. not school or anywhere else. but parenting. coz i find being punished by a teacher is blown off. but being punished by me is sheer torture in our family. 

 

is punishment a disagreement between a parent and child. that the child sees what they did was ok, but the parent thought not? but punishment is not boundaries. 

 

dd and i have had a couple of instances where for the first time really i punished her. and we talked and thought about it later. and i discovered my mistake. i had no clue what to do so i jumped into punishment.

 

punishment during these puberty times is so punitive. it really serves no purpose. i am talking about parenting. if i feel i have to punish my child then somehow i have lost touch with my child. somehow our communication has broken down. when i punished my child (it had NO effect on her) i discovered her bad behaviour was a reaction to a bigger issue and punishment was worse than helpful for her. 

 

hmmm... back to pondering. 

Backroads likes this.

 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is online now  
#130 of 170 Old 08-11-2013, 11:51 AM
 
Serafina33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Far from home!
Posts: 1,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
My ten year old really has moments of rude, ugly behavior seemingly out of nowhere and ten minutes in his room seems to help him to calm down from his little rage. Additional Loss of fun/extra privileges in repeated bout scenarios may or may not help drive home the point that it is unacceptable to lash out verbally or physically but we feel we must express our standpoint on truly antisocial outbursts somehow so that they register.

nak.gif Relentless mommy of 2 mancubs, 8 & 10 years old.... and now a little lady (Oct 2013)!      computergeek2.gif   http://relentlessmommy.com   
Serafina33 is offline  
#131 of 170 Old 08-11-2013, 01:04 PM
 
alexisfaye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am on a two week road trip with my three kids (7, 5, & 2). And my mother. We have 50 hours of driving. That's super hard. I get it. We are all tired. But I can't afford to fly all these places so we just do out best. My son (5) has really struggled. I try to build in breaks at parks or playgrounds. I brought colors and books and books on tape (no movies). He has been difficult. Screaming, hitting seats, chanting "you are poopy" for ten minutes at a time, etc. the baby is behaving better! I don't see how to go through this experience without artificial consequences or punishment. I can't walk away. I can't stop the car. I know he needs a hug. A snack. Some alone time. In the meantime it's totally unfair for the rest of us to suffer through this. So what would a no-punishment mom do? Yeah. I want to change his behavior. Does that mean I'm already on the other side of the fence?
alexisfaye is offline  
#132 of 170 Old 08-11-2013, 02:13 PM
 
Daffodil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Vermont
Posts: 3,615
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexisfaye View Post

I am on a two week road trip with my three kids (7, 5, & 2). And my mother. We have 50 hours of driving. That's super hard. I get it. We are all tired. But I can't afford to fly all these places so we just do out best. My son (5) has really struggled. I try to build in breaks at parks or playgrounds. I brought colors and books and books on tape (no movies). He has been difficult. Screaming, hitting seats, chanting "you are poopy" for ten minutes at a time, etc. the baby is behaving better! I don't see how to go through this experience without artificial consequences or punishment. I can't walk away. I can't stop the car. I know he needs a hug. A snack. Some alone time. In the meantime it's totally unfair for the rest of us to suffer through this. So what would a no-punishment mom do? Yeah. I want to change his behavior. Does that mean I'm already on the other side of the fence?


Honestly, if I were in that situation and I thought punishment would work I might try it.  (That's assuming we had to cover a certain number of miles in a certain amount of time and there was no way around it.  Otherwise, I might consider cutting the trip short or driving a shorter distance each day.)  But I can see some difficulties with using punishment in this situation.  First of all, there's the question of whether or not he actually has the ability to control his behavior to the extent you want.  But let's say he does.  What punishment would you use?  Maybe just pulling over for a minute and giving him a stern lecture would work.  Or maybe not.  You could take away some privilege he would otherwise have when you stop for the night, like dessert with dinner, or TV in the motel.  But what if he does behave badly even after the punishment has been threatened?  Now he's already lost the privilege and has no incentive to behave unless you add another punishment.  What's that going to be - no dinner at all?  No dessert for the next two nights?  You could quickly get to the point where there's no way to add more punishments without being really cruel or where he's already lost so much that he doesn't see any point in even trying to behave well anymore.  (I suppose this is why physical punishment was popular for so long.  You can always add another spanking.)  And the thought of the accumulated punishments might make him so angry that he feels more like screaming and hitting than ever. 

 

But what options do you have besides punishing?  You could try rewards.  I'd probably try rewards before punishment.  That also will only work if he actually has the ability to control his behavior.  There's also the problem that if he messes up and loses the chance to get the reward he now loses motivation to behave unless there's another chance to be rewarded.  So instead of offering a big reward if he behaves all day, you might want to give out a small reward after every half hour of good behavior. 

 

Since I'm not sure how effective either punishment or rewards would be, I'd probably think hard about ways I could make the time in the car less unpleasant for him.  If I could afford it, I might even consider buying a portable DVD player or a Nintendo DS to keep him entertained.  I'm not a big fan of screen time for kids, but if the alternative is that he's not only miserable himself but also making everyone else in the car miserable, it might be the best choice.

Daffodil is online now  
#133 of 170 Old 08-15-2013, 07:49 AM
 
Holleys8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I'm new here, Hello!!

I have eight children; 29 years old down to 9 years old and have dealt with so many different personality traits. I have learned first hand that each child needs to be

treated differently. I do believe in natural consequences but I also think that there is such a fine line between discipline and consequences and that sometimes Mom

has to push more immediate results.

 

I always told my children that there is nothing that they HAVE to do and of course, they went through the phase saying that we have to eat....no you don't but you chose to  starve;

or we have to breathe, no you don't but then you will die. It may seem a bit extreme but it seems to work wonders. I start showing them what hot is from around a year old....no, I don't

let them burn themselves but allow them to feel enough heat so that I am not constantly pulling back their hands. I explain that things are hot and can hurt them, as they reach for the hot thing again, I very carefully let them naturally feel the heat. Of course, this is supervised and the actual age that it happens, varies.

 

As they grow I let them know what the consequences are for certain actions and tell them if they chose to continue, than they are choosing the outcome. The outcome may happen naturally or I may have to help it along, otherwise they do not think that there is an end result. Younger children may be told several times so that they understand. It is never harsh or punitive. The post about the child running in the parking lot. I would explain before they were out of the car, that  they must stay by my side, if they don't they will be carried. I may give a younger child a second chance, so that they understand the expectation. If I needed to hold their hand or pick them up, than I would tell them why. When leaving the store, I would do the same thing. Using this technique allowed me to take 8 children to the store; 5 of them were under 6 years old. They did not run off or disrupt other shoppers.

 

Maybe this would be considered punitive but for me, it allowed consequences without danger, even if those consequences were guided by me.

 

I now have 8 of the most amazing, intelligent, creative....headstrong (lol) children. I love who they are as people

Backroads likes this.
Holleys8 is offline  
#134 of 170 Old 08-17-2013, 12:53 AM
 
Serafina33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Far from home!
Posts: 1,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holleys8 View Post
 5 of them were under 6 years old. They did not run off or disrupt other shoppers.

 

 

YOUR kids?  How is that even possible to have 5 children ages 5 or under?  That's having one child every year!  Wow, I'm speechless, that is impressive.

Or even if they weren't your kids, brave of you to take that many little ones to the store.  
Seems like you are the toddler whisperer and have the tantrum thing mastered completely.  I bow down!  I wish I was as perfect with handling/preventing those, my kids tantrumed until age 7 in public.  Not often, but sometimes.  Totally stressful.  


nak.gif Relentless mommy of 2 mancubs, 8 & 10 years old.... and now a little lady (Oct 2013)!      computergeek2.gif   http://relentlessmommy.com   
Serafina33 is offline  
#135 of 170 Old 08-17-2013, 05:01 AM
 
Holleys8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

They were newborn, 18 months, 3 years, 4 1/2 years, and 6 years old....no not the toddler whisperer but we

did have the tantrum thing down, It was a necessity. I did have one child who did use tantrums until school age,

There was something about her that everyone gave into....strangers, not me. So, she learned that she got want she

wanted.

 

The circumstances that I had so many kids, so close together, is long and boring. =)

Holleys8 is offline  
#136 of 170 Old 08-19-2013, 09:46 PM
 
peaceful_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: #12 Grimmauld Place
Posts: 4,942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Yes. Yes, I believe in punishment. However, I believe in it as a consequence of your actions. An example would be if my child made a poor choice during an outing, that child might miss the next outing. (depends on age of child & situation of course) If they make irresponsible computer choices or are destructive toward the TV, absolutely losing some time with the item.
They need to learn that actions have consequences & rules apply to them. I'd rather they learn this through loss of privileges now than later, when it can mean jail time & a record that affects their ability to work & have a life.

That said, they are children. Punishment has no place before an age where the child understands the rule in the first place. It must also consider the ability to connect the event to the consequence. For example, at two, a child is not going to connect your refusal to take him to the store this week to his refusal to sit in the cart last time. At eight, yes, my kid can remember stuff like that. (though at 8, the expectation wouldn't be to stay in a cart!)
Call it whatever you want. What I don't find useful is corporal punishment or random stuff like "you acted naughty in the store so I will take away tv"

Also consequences have to consider ashe & comprehension

lovin DH since 1/04, best mom for my 3 boys 10/04, 11/08, 11/10 one girlie (1/07), and one 13 wk (10/13) just your average :ha ng multigenerational living family!!
peaceful_mama is offline  
#137 of 170 Old 08-19-2013, 09:52 PM
 
peaceful_mama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: #12 Grimmauld Place
Posts: 4,942
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Trip lol I am totally stealing a friend's idea. Kids were twins, about 7 or 8. They earned a quarter for every 15 minutes of decent behavior. Catch....both or none. By the time they'd stop, they would have a few dollars to buy a treat.

lovin DH since 1/04, best mom for my 3 boys 10/04, 11/08, 11/10 one girlie (1/07), and one 13 wk (10/13) just your average :ha ng multigenerational living family!!
peaceful_mama is offline  
#138 of 170 Old 08-21-2013, 09:59 AM
 
PeacemongerMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

*


Peace can not be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.- Albert Einstein

PeacemongerMom is offline  
#139 of 170 Old 08-21-2013, 10:00 AM
 
PeacemongerMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I enjoy this topic because it's something I still struggle with and I'm indecisive about. I enjoyed reading all the replies, well I read most of them. I've read Kohn's Unconditional Parenting and I LOVED it. I just knew that was how I was meant to parent and then I applied it and the honeymoon with Kohn was over and the results were horrible but I was determined that my child would make good choices for the sake of being good not for fear or punishment or want or reward. No carrot and stick here, so I persisted on. I found a school that literally had an Alfie Kohn book on display to borrow from their parent library and it was a mile from home. I was elated could anything be more perfect? DS's kindergarten teacher also said she didn't believe in or utilize reward or punishments. Half way through kindergarten DS got kicked out of this school that seemed like such a good match. Still I wasn't certain I would tell him he got kicked out or just that he was going to try a new school. One day after his dismissal I got a phone call from the administrator about some paperwork and quick as lightning DS ran up next to me and before I could shoo him away through the phone he over heard the administrator and realized he'd been kicked out. I have never seen my child so deeply wounded. I can still see him, curling himself into a ball on the couch and hear him sobbing. This was very different then crying because he wanted something or he skinned a knee, different even then when his best friend would get mad and tell him he didn't want to play with him anymore.

 

An interesting thing happened after that,  there wasn't one single school problem. The only notes I got were ones of glowing good behavior. Gone was the refusal to do work, the tantrums in class, back talking to the teacher, throwing crayons, etc.  I didn't issue the consequence but the world did and DS heard and felt it. But did it hurt him, ultimately, did he benefit from it? Was it actually a good thing in the long term? I will never know if this change would have happened had a decided to shelter him from the truth of why he left his first school.

 

Maybe it's me, maybe there's some subtlety that I'm missing here. That kindergarten teacher at the first school, I think she did believe in some degree of consequences. A few times I tried to nail her down to specifics in an attempt to see if it was something I could do at home and provide some consistency to improve his behavior there. I never could get specifics. She would say things like when a child made bad choices they would model the correct behavior. It didn't help my son. Maybe non punitive methods aren't enough for some kids. I'm still of two minds on this. On one hand, I know well that life is lurking around the corner with it's own consequences and wouldn't it be kinder to prepare our kids for this at home? I don't mean to start preparing them at 16 , that's almost too late. I agree that little ones aren't capable of comprehending the abstract reasons for doing good. On the other hand working with them instead of doing to them , as Alfie would put it still holds appeal.

Holleys8 likes this.

Peace can not be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.- Albert Einstein

PeacemongerMom is offline  
#140 of 170 Old 08-21-2013, 10:14 AM
 
SweetSilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Westfarthing
Posts: 5,130
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)

The Double-Postergeist strikes again! 

 

Peeves!!!!  Get thee gone, or I shall call the Bloody Baron!

erigeron likes this.

Give me a few minutes while I caffeinate.
SweetSilver is offline  
#141 of 170 Old 08-21-2013, 10:29 AM
 
PeacemongerMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

ack, how do I erase it ?


Peace can not be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.- Albert Einstein

PeacemongerMom is offline  
#142 of 170 Old 08-21-2013, 10:38 AM
 
SweetSilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Westfarthing
Posts: 5,130
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeacemongerMom View Post

ack, how do I erase it ?

You don't exactly.  You click on the "edit" icon, lower left, delete the body and substitute a * or whatever, or leave it as is.  I've noticed it's been happening all over MDC in the last few days, so the Peeves joke was not entirely out of the ballpark.  Digital-Peeves!


Give me a few minutes while I caffeinate.
SweetSilver is offline  
#143 of 170 Old 09-02-2013, 03:29 PM
 
KSLaura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 504
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Interesting thread! We run a punishment-free household and so far its working really well with my 4 and 7YOs. I've never heard of Alfie Kohn, but I'd love to learn more. Anyone have any good book suggestions? smile.gif


" rel="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/familybed2.gif">familybed2.gif  DD1 12/05, DD2 12/08


Computer Engineer- I write better in 1's and 0's. ;-)
KSLaura is offline  
#144 of 170 Old 09-02-2013, 04:22 PM
 
kallah22's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

You know, it gets me that a lot of people now a days are still following Dr. Spock's particular theories for educating children and how man of you know that his son ended up killing himself? Not one I would want to follow. I'd rather follow what the Bible says. God created us and knows what's better for us and yes, I understand some criminals are in prison because of mental illness but this country in the last 40 years has abandoned its traditional ways of life where mom would be at home and dad would go to work and there was always someone there to take care of the kids. Now kids grow up on tv and video games, alone and many children never even know who  their fathers are and I think that has greatly contributed to the high rate of crime.

kallah22 is offline  
#145 of 170 Old 09-02-2013, 08:20 PM
 
Serafina33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Far from home!
Posts: 1,422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Where in the bible does it give you step by step instructions for what to do, say, during temper tantrums with school aged children who are testing the limits?


nak.gif Relentless mommy of 2 mancubs, 8 & 10 years old.... and now a little lady (Oct 2013)!      computergeek2.gif   http://relentlessmommy.com   
Serafina33 is offline  
#146 of 170 Old 09-03-2013, 12:05 AM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

PeacemongerMow wrote "She would say things like when a child made bad choices they would model the correct behavior. It didn't help my son."

 

This is so true! And I dont think I've ever seen it articulated before.

 

My oldest, a boy just doesn't notice when people model stuff. He's off with the fairies a lot of the time really. He's very absorbed in his own world. He wants clear, quick answers, in the, to him, non-ideal situation that he can't just do as he likes :rotflmao. But where these answers don't coincide with what brings him joy, he then sometimes kicks off or does as he likes. 

 

My daughters, totally different. They pick up on the cues, the hints. They notice that we speak quieter and take our shoes off when we enter the house. Generally they do it. And ds is still there singing loudly in his mucky trainers.

 

There is a level on which we use punishment, time out etc because it is the only way ds actually notices.

 

Oh and before anyone suggests that I must have spent the last 10 years yelling and giving out gold stars, nope. We unschool, and we have really tried to avoid any punishments where possible. Oh and I can call them consequences. We are talking stuff like, right, you walked mud through the house so you need to go and wipe it up.  To me thats a punishment actually, and fulfils the same top-down function as one. I have to say, to me consequences is a semantic nicety.


Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#147 of 170 Old 09-03-2013, 05:25 AM
 
Polliwog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,084
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Neither of Dr. Spock's sons committed suicide. His grandson did, however he suffered from schizophrenia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kallah22 View Post

You know, it gets me that a lot of people now a days are still following Dr. Spock's particular theories for educating children and how man of you know that his son ended up killing himself? Not one I would want to follow. I'd rather follow what the Bible says. God created us and knows what's better for us and yes, I understand some criminals are in prison because of mental illness but this country in the last 40 years has abandoned its traditional ways of life where mom would be at home and dad would go to work and there was always someone there to take care of the kids. Now kids grow up on tv and video games, alone and many children never even know who  their fathers are and I think that has greatly contributed to the high rate of crime.
Fillyjonk and Chaika like this.
Polliwog is offline  
#148 of 170 Old 09-03-2013, 08:06 AM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

" I'd rather follow what the Bible says. God created us and knows what's better for us and yes, I understand some criminals are in prison because of mental illness but this country in the last 40 years has abandoned its traditional ways of life where mom would be at home and dad would go to work and there was always someone there to take care of the kids. Now kids grow up on tv and video games, alone and many children never even know who  their fathers are and I think that has greatly contributed to the high rate of crime."

 

OTOH I'd rather have rights for women and employment and legal protection for those who want it. I'd rather women and men could make realistic choices about parenthood, work and not be forced into either. I'd rather domestic violence and rape within marriage be a criminal offence. I'd rather children had rights and were listened to and didn't have to go to work or starve. I'd rather a woman had the right to choose. I'd rather discrimination based on gender and gender identity, sexual orientation, race and culture be not only illegal but also socially unacceptable. I'd rather people knew not to drink and drive. I'm glad we've been to the moon and are sending probes to the furthest reaches of the solar system. I think the advances in medical technology, that interplay nicely with the technological world our next generation grows up in, have done so much to improve peoples qualities of life, kept families together for longer.

 

I think parenting today is radically different, better more consensual than it was 40 years ago. Generally, spanking and emotional abuse is unacceptable. If parents badly screw up, there is some kind of a care system which has an inkling of what kids need, even if it struggles to achieve it. Teachers are better, kinder. I grew up nearly 40 years ago. The world today is a much nicer one for our kids. 

meemee, Polliwog, KSLaura and 4 others like this.

Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#149 of 170 Old 09-03-2013, 10:27 AM
 
starling&diesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: West Coast, Canada
Posts: 3,830
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Thank you, fillyjonk! joy.gif
I've been struggling with a response, and ultimately couldn't trust myself to stay within the UA. Thank you so much for standing up and singing with such a clear, beautiful voice! I'm in the choir with you, friend!

ps. And can I have your post printed on a T-shirt please?

dust.gifFour-eyed tattooed fairy godmother queer, mama to my lucky star (5) and little bird (2.5). Resident storyteller at www.thestoryforest.com. Enchanting audiostories for curious kids. Come play in the forest!
starling&diesel is offline  
#150 of 170 Old 09-03-2013, 11:13 AM
 
MamadeRumi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kallah22 View Post
 

 I'd rather follow what the Bible says.

As in "he that spareth his rod hateth his son"?  Doesn't sound like really gentle discipline to me.

MamadeRumi is offline  
Reply

Tags
Gentle Discipline , Positive Discipline , P E T Parent Effectiveness Training , Unconditional Parenting Moving From Rewards And Punishments To Love And Reason , Beyond Discipline From Compliance To Community , Popular On Mothering In 2013

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off