Is child punishment ever necessary? - Page 6 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#151 of 170 Old 09-04-2013, 06:05 AM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

aw starlinganddiesel, what a nice thing to see! Thank you. 

 

I do feel a bit strongly about this, as you can see ;-)


Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#152 of 170 Old 09-20-2013, 02:01 AM
 
filamentary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: glassell park, los angeles, ca
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post

why he's still hitting.  Is it lack of self-control?  If so, punishment probably won't help, because when he's mad enough to hit he's not going to be in control enough to think about the punishment he's going to get and stop himself in order to avoid it.  Is he not yet old enough to think about other people's feelings?  If he just doesn't yet fully understand the wrongness of hitting, he's probably not going to understand the rightness of punishment for hitting, either.  So the punishment is more likely to make him mad at me and sorry for himself than sorry for hurting someone else.  I don't think punishment is a good way of helping kids develop an intrinsic sense of right and wrong.

long thread, been reading through it off and on in free moments from my phone, this is where i'm up to, so forgive me if i end up saying anything that gets duplicated in someone else's comments i haven't read yet!

i like everything you said here, and i would add: if we notice kiddo is having impulse control – or does kiddo think things that feel uncomfortable or unfair warrant swift action (which in their limited repertoire comes out in the flailing or dragging of limbs or voice)? – isn't the only way to ensure we are modeling a different way (of responding) to make sure that even a necessary consequence taken to protect one or more parties is done in a way that doesn't feel at all like what the child just did?

obviously if the kid hits another kid, and you fly over to them and hit them, we can all so readily and obviously see the hypocrisy and how the parent is sending a much clearer message with modeling hitting behavior than whatever directives are being verbalized. but without getting into semantics, i think it seems important to think about what all the teeny tiny clues you are sending with your body language and attitude may be, and – forget about the entire concept of punishment for a moment – does it feel/seem to the kid a lot like what they just did, from their limited perspective? and if so, isn't it just better, pragmatically speaking, to find another way?

i see this group hasn't come to consensus about whether you need to drive home a lesson about hitting, and maybe if you don't feel how i do, this idea won't work for you. but i absolutely believe that without ever being taught they did it wrong, the kid will outgrow the impulse as long as everything you model for them is positive, gentle, calm, loving, cooperative – unless they're nearly incapable (such as lower functioning autism spectrum kids). but we all know in kids who don't voluntarily choose cooperation due to cognitive inability don't respond to harshness, either, so i can't see any reason not to just use modeling, since any kid you feasibly could get compliant through punishment will just model their behavior after yours naturally anyway. ok, so that opinion aside and (i think) fairly well explained, where i was going was...

if (and perhaps only if) you see eye to eye with me on that last point, what about applying the baby falling concept to hitting? that is, baby falls, and you either go, "uh oh!" or "whoopsy-daisy!" as calm and cool as a cucumber and help them up, and then they only freak out if they are truly injured. you haven't overlaid unnecessary meaning onto it, creating additional distress baby wouldn't naturally need to feel. how bout if we did this with hitting? might take willingness from both kids' parents, but imagine if you basically go, "whoops!" like as if they did it on accident, even if it seemed rather deliberate (b/c chances are, they don't do it with the intent of causing the amount of pain it may possibly cause). no one is blamed. you are helping them up, basically (this is the moment of separation), giving both kids a moment to feel what they feel without any adult overlay. if it hurt the other kid, really and truly, and your kid sees that the only consequence of their action was that inflicted pain, they are learning what there really is to be learned – that hitting hurts. if it didn't hurt the other kid, we can at least rest assured it won't act as a natural positive reinforcement, since they didn't "get their way" as a result. you know, you just basically be like, "oops, not that, try again" in attitude, and then there's no chance the kid sees your response as an increasing escalation?

i mean, even with puppies, who don't have anywhere near human cognitive ability, but definitely show tendency toward what can probably rightly be called social behavior and empathy of the variety we value in our kids – they respond best to learning not to bite our skin (only chew on toys) when we act nonchalant in making the switcheroo: oops, got my hand (maybe a little yelp if it hurt, not the same as scolding), but here's the toy, clumsy little puppy. you don't have to reward them for selecting the toy or punish them for accidentally nipping flesh. even dogs naturally intuit that this is how it's done in this social sphere to which they enjoy belonging. not every dog every time, obviously, but even the best dog isn't as smart as a toddler in the verbal logic and reasoning department and no dog can ever understand your explanation. so isn't the important trait the social nature of the being, and the corresponding ability to empathize?

i feel like we all GET that attaching a punishment to a morally reprehensible action takes the focus off the morality of the action and substitutes avoidance of the behavior for the right reasons with avoidance for fear of being punished (leading them to sneak, deceive, cheat). but what about the subtle nuances of this principle? that even too quick a movement, too panicked a reaction from us, can likewise distract from the very building block lessons in empathy by injecting too much parental reaction? i am not at all saying we don't redirect, and guide, the kid, promptly. but if the kid can pick up your disapproving expression, can't they pick up the hurt look on the other toddler's face?

these are just thought experiments i want to throw out there. b/c maybe unconditional parenting is hard not only because of the patience it calls on us to muster, but because sometimes our own body language betrays the true spirit of the technique. maybe some of the people who contend it just didn't work don't mean it couldn't work, but they themselves just weren't good at internalizing it. the people who get really quickly defensive about their need to be the parent, set firm boundaries, enact discipline, etc., just don't strike me as people whose current attitudes and body language are likely to send the supportive "we're in this together, kiddo" message that you've got to be able to send if you're saying that you actually gave this parenting style a try. i know that sounds super judgmental, but bear with me – i'm asking this of myself as much as anyone else. some people just are calm, take-it-in-stride, gentle-mannered folks, and others are the teeth-grinding, hand-wringing, sweating type, and our temperaments (or perhaps some of it the results of our own upbringing) fall everywhere in between. i am naturally more high-strung than relaxed, which means i am going to have to be so incredibly mindful to enact unconditional parenting. and i'm bracing myself for the fact i won't get it perfect all the time. but i think it is more likely that the success or failure of it (just my opinion) rests on how successfully it is carried out. not in my over-achieving, list-checking way, but in the spirit in which i carry it out, as perceived by my kid.

and so, long story short, are our different views about semantics? or perhaps about something we can't bring to a message board at all? – our body language and the attitudes conveyed to our kids (regardless of what we say)?

and just because it's harder for some of us than others to give our kids what they most deserve obviously doesn't mean we don't owe it to them to work harder to rise to the challenge. as the saying goes, after all, they didn't ask to be born – we chose to have them.
buko likes this.

will be TTC in late 2014 w/ frozen donor sperm via at-home ICI. queer, 32. DW is 41.  married 10 yrs. 
 
             and soon          
filamentary is offline  
#153 of 170 Old 09-20-2013, 08:35 AM
 
philomom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 9,430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kallah22 View Post

You know, it gets me that a lot of people now a days are still following Dr. Spock's particular theories for educating children and how man of you know that his son ended up killing himself? Not one I would want to follow. I'd rather follow what the Bible says. God created us and knows what's better for us and yes, I understand some criminals are in prison because of mental illness but this country in the last 40 years has abandoned its traditional ways of life where mom would be at home and dad would go to work and there was always someone there to take care of the kids. Now kids grow up on tv and video games, alone and many children never even know who  their fathers are and I think that has greatly contributed to the high rate of crime.


http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/drspock.asp


Please know your facts before you post. Bearing false witness is not cool. And I'm an atheist.
starling&diesel and Lazurii like this.
philomom is offline  
#154 of 170 Old 09-20-2013, 09:15 AM
 
starling&diesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: West Coast, Canada
Posts: 3,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by filamentary View Post



i absolutely believe that without ever being taught they did it wrong, the kid will outgrow the impulse as long as everything you model for them is positive, gentle, calm, loving, cooperative – unless they're nearly incapable (such as lower functioning autism spectrum kids). but we all know in kids who don't voluntarily choose cooperation due to cognitive inability don't respond to harshness, either, so i can't see any reason not to just use modeling, since any kid you feasibly could get compliant through punishment will just model their behavior after yours naturally anyway.

So well put! Yes!

dust.gifFour-eyed tattooed fairy godmother queer, mama to my lucky star (5) and little bird (2.5). Resident storyteller at www.thestoryforest.com. Enchanting audiostories for curious kids. Come play in the forest!
starling&diesel is online now  
#155 of 170 Old 09-20-2013, 09:20 AM
 
starling&diesel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: West Coast, Canada
Posts: 3,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by filamentary View Post



maybe unconditional parenting is hard not only because of the patience it calls on us to muster, but because sometimes our own body language betrays the true spirit of the technique. maybe some of the people who contend it just didn't work don't mean it couldn't work, but they themselves just weren't good at internalizing it. the people who get really quickly defensive about their need to be the parent, set firm boundaries, enact discipline, etc., just don't strike me as people whose current attitudes and body language are likely to send the supportive "we're in this together, kiddo" message that you've got to be able to send if you're saying that you actually gave this parenting style a try. i know that sounds super judgmental, but bear with me – i'm asking this of myself as much as anyone else. some people just are calm, take-it-in-stride, gentle-mannered folks, and others are the teeth-grinding, hand-wringing, sweating type, and our temperaments (or perhaps some of it the results of our own upbringing) fall everywhere in between. i am naturally more high-strung than relaxed, which means i am going to have to be so incredibly mindful to enact unconditional parenting. and i'm bracing myself for the fact i won't get it perfect all the time. but i think it is more likely that the success or failure of it (just my opinion) rests on how successfully it is carried out. not in my over-achieving, list-checking way, but in the spirit in which i carry it out, as perceived by my kid.

This is where my struggle lies. I can have the intention, but sometimes in the heat of the moment my tone and body language will betray my best intentions and undo the gentle and non-coercive angles I was aiming for. Those times are our hardest times. When our hearts are all in it together, it's so much smoother.
filamentary likes this.

dust.gifFour-eyed tattooed fairy godmother queer, mama to my lucky star (5) and little bird (2.5). Resident storyteller at www.thestoryforest.com. Enchanting audiostories for curious kids. Come play in the forest!
starling&diesel is online now  
#156 of 170 Old 09-20-2013, 09:55 AM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

"i absolutely believe that without ever being taught they did it wrong, the kid will outgrow the impulse as long as everything you model for them is positive, gentle, calm, loving, cooperative – unless they're nearly incapable" from filamentry sorry can't quote for some reason

 

I think yes and no. I think yes for some kids. My girls, basically, yes. My son, no.  

 

I think some kids-disproportionately boys, though I'm always reluctant to reduce anything to gender terms- seem to be amazingly unobservant and you can model til the cows come home but its not going to work. Because they don't really notice what other people are doing. Not, I assure you, because they've been ignored their whole lives. Actually one of my son's friends, who is awful for this, was an only child with a highly involved (what some might call an extreme helicopter) mother til about a year ago. I think some kids, like my oldest, actually need to be told that certain behaviours just aren't ok. Again, and again. He will not notice the effect of his behaviour on others and I have no idea why (he's not on the spectrum afaik, and many of his friends are the same). Modelling isn't always enough. And of course, this is behaviour that is unpleasant for others. Eventually you get to a point where you just have to put some lines in the sand, else you do end up with a kid who no one else wants to play with. Sometimes you need to be able to put clear, quick consequences in place so that everyone gets freedom. If I say to my son, "if you hurt anyone with your whirlwind impressions you will have to sit with me for ten minutes" then everyone gets to go to the park and everyone gets to stay at the park. He is happier as a result. And I promise, he has not been raised in an environment where people continually wave their arms around or rush about with their eyes shut. No one is modelling being a whirlwind. And there is nothing wrong with a 10 year old wanting the sensory feedback and group fun from doing that, except that they need to be more aware so younger kids are safe.

 

I also do believe, based on seeing other kids in action, that lack of awareness of others, relative lack of empathy, is developmentally normal. I think we sometimes measure good parenting by how adult-like our kids are and I'm not really in favour of that. I think better to recognise that our kids are undergoing recognisable, if irritating, normal, and necessary childhood stages. I prefer to give them simple, enforced limits, and let them get on with being kids and take care of some of the grown up organisational stuff, reminding them about rules and boring stuff, myself. Empathy comes with age and development IME, its not really learnt and is generally modelled well enough in any non-abusive family.

 

I think, personally, you get the kids you get and you do your best. I think we overestimate the amount we can influence them really and I think we often fall into a trap of correlating adult/mature behaviour with good parenting. I think the reasons for parenting kindly and well are primarily moral ones really, and I think we have a better relationship with our kids when we are kind to them. I think its right to model kind, empathic behaviour because it is right to be kind and empathic to people and our kids, along with our partners, are hopefully the most important people in our lives. But I don't think its all we need to do, for many kids, and I don't think it would ever be right to conclude that a child who behaved in a way not considered socially acceptable was doing that because they had not had appropriate behaviour modelled to them. If only it were so simple!

mamazee and filamentary like this.

Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#157 of 170 Old 09-20-2013, 11:40 AM
 
filamentary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: glassell park, los angeles, ca
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post


I think we sometimes measure good parenting by how adult-like our kids are and I'm not really in favour of that. I think better to recognise that our kids are undergoing recognisable, if irritating, normal, and necessary childhood stages.

yes! well said!
mamazee likes this.

will be TTC in late 2014 w/ frozen donor sperm via at-home ICI. queer, 32. DW is 41.  married 10 yrs. 
 
             and soon          
filamentary is offline  
#158 of 170 Old 09-20-2013, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
 
mamazee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: US midwest
Posts: 7,500
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I am really geeked about how much amazing discussion there's been in this thread!
mamazee is offline  
#159 of 170 Old 09-29-2013, 07:32 AM
 
KSLaura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 491
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

 



I think yes and no. I think yes for some kids. My girls, basically, yes. My son, no.  



 



This is an interesting perspective. I have 2 girls who behave pretty well with appropriate modeling and suggestions. Thinking back though, I remember my parents having a hard time getting my younger brother to behave. I seem to recall things like temper tantrums in public when he was well into grade school. He responded a lot better to rules/consequences, and as a result, my parents did more of that with him than with my sister or I.

I wonder why it is that girls seem to respond better to these methods? Is it really a biological/gender thing, or is it the gender specific expectations we have in our society. Anyone have any experience with boys/girls from different cultures? I wonder if behavior in other countries follows gender lines.


" rel="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/familybed2.gif">familybed2.gif  DD1 12/05, DD2 12/08


Computer Engineer- I write better in 1's and 0's. ;-)
KSLaura is offline  
#160 of 170 Old 09-29-2013, 12:10 PM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSLaura View Post
 

 

 

I think yes and no. I think yes for some kids. My girls, basically, yes. My son, no.  

 

 



This is an interesting perspective. I have 2 girls who behave pretty well with appropriate modeling and suggestions. Thinking back though, I remember my parents having a hard time getting my younger brother to behave. I seem to recall things like temper tantrums in public when he was well into grade school. He responded a lot better to rules/consequences, and as a result, my parents did more of that with him than with my sister or I.

I wonder why it is that girls seem to respond better to these methods? Is it really a biological/gender thing, or is it the gender specific expectations we have in our society. Anyone have any experience with boys/girls from different cultures? I wonder if behavior in other countries follows gender lines.

 

 

Well, to respond directly about the kids in the above quote...what I can say is that my son was very, very sheltered from gender roles. Its something I'm highly aware of, have read about, and have never pushed. I actually kept his hours low at our Waldorf kindy because I did not appreciate the stereotyping. Til he was 6 or so, his favourite colour was pink (then he went to the Waldorf kindy...). Yes I am a SAHM but I've always been either working or studying (chemistry). His dad does equally his share around the house and he has good models in his grandfathers. He's been raised in an environment which celebrates diversity of gender and I have many friends whose gender and/or sexual identity is complex, or non mainstream. He's homeschooled, and we are in the UK where the default is secular.

 

Even now, at ten, he doesn't have an especially strong identity around being a boy. He's never been through the "girls are yuk" phase. He's entirely unbothered about wearing pink or purple and he'll play happily with his sisters. Until quite recently he had long hair and was often mistaken for a girl (he's also quite slight) and that never bothered him. It certainly didn't bother him enough to cut his hair.

 

But there are differences in how he processes information, what he notices, how he picks up on social cues. Whether that's a girl-boy thing I have no idea at all. However, if he is displaying this behaviour because of societal pressure, then I think there's little hope for the majority of kids. 

 

I think the best way to see this is as, yes, some kids will pick up on social cues. Others won't. How can we work with those who don't?


Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#161 of 170 Old 09-30-2013, 11:42 AM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post

 

But there are differences in how he processes information, what he notices, how he picks up on social cues. Whether that's a girl-boy thing I have no idea at all. However, if he is displaying this behaviour because of societal pressure, then I think there's little hope for the majority of kids. 

 

I think the best way to see this is as, yes, some kids will pick up on social cues. Others won't. How can we work with those who don't?

But isn’t societal pressure part of the game? And isnt it a good thing he is testing it out? Isnt teenage pretty much part of that process?
 isnt it about testing out and then finding your own voice.

 

I have discovered this about my dd. She is getting to the teenage phase and boy does parenting as one knows it go right out the window. punishment for me now takes on a whole different definition. i notice as they get around 10 or so (dd and her friends) they come so much into their own person who dont want help from their parents. Sometimes the natural consequence is worse than any punishment a parent could give. i am discovering how at this phase punishment COULD become an ego trip.


 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is online now  
#162 of 170 Old 09-30-2013, 02:18 PM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

meemee-just to be clear about the context of that quote. I was specifically referring to a previous post which suggested that my son was displaying typical "boy" behaviour because of his upbringing. I was pointing out that he'd had an upbringing which not only minimised exposure to stereotypical ideas but also encouraged him to actively question them. Basically, that if you want an example of a kid raised stereotypically male, my kid is about the worst example you could pick. Not that I was trying to raise an automaton. Ironically, quite the opposite.

 

I think this has been very much taken out of context and I'd really suggest reading all the posts relating to this, which were part of an ongoing conversation. One point I've raised relating to my own kid is that he has always been like that. My entire point is that kids are different and what works for one does not work for all. I know this because I have three, very different, kids.


Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#163 of 170 Old 09-30-2013, 03:47 PM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post
 One point I've raised relating to my own kid is that he has always been like that.

this is your 9 year old right? The thing is just coz he has always been ‘like that’ does that mean he will continue to be that way? My dd too has never fit into any mold. She has always been very different and yet now even she is affected by societal pressure in the form of different people she is looking at as heroes.

 

Perhaps i am taking this further out of context. I have followed this thread and read all the posts - not attacking you Fillyjonk, but i will say without quotes some posts did get difficult following - but perhaps i am throwing this out there - because punishment before 10 is so different than punishment after 10 or so.


 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is online now  
#164 of 170 Old 10-01-2013, 12:05 AM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

meemee, sorry but I really don't want to get into this.At no point did I say that my child would always be that way, btw. I said, that is what he is like now and has always been that way, so the odds of it being some kind of preteen phase are minimal.

 

I don't think there's much point trying to convince me that I'm mistaken about my own child's personality. I think its fair to assume that I know him quite well by now. I also have three kids, which gives me, I feel, a level of perspective regarding what's nature and what's nurture. 

 

I understand that its hard to read all the posts, but bearing in mind that you're taking a quote out of context and using it to criticise my assessment of my own child-and bearing in mind I wasn't asking for help or anything- I think its reasonable to ask you do so before commenting on my specific situation. 

 

Incidentally, no, he's not 9, he's 10. My sig is out of date.

 

This is feeling rather personal. I think one important principle here is that our experiences differ. The original question was "is punishment ever necessary?". Not, "Is it generally a good idea.". or "is it a good default position.". My experience is that strict boundaries and consequences can work for some children. For others, they are just a major drag for everyone concerned, including the kid. I'm familiar with punishment free paragdims and have tried them and my experience is that they work for some children. There is simply no one size fits all in parenting. Its a huge mistake to extrapolate out, especially from what has worked on one kid, in one family.

 

I think its important to be respectful of each other's differences here and respect that people have had different experiences, not try to dismiss or explain away someone's experience of parenting because it doesn't tally with our theories.

NiteNicole and Lazurii like this.

Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#165 of 170 Old 10-01-2013, 08:07 PM
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

Not to wade too far into this fray, but I was total crap at reading social cues when I was 9 or 10, and I'm a girl. shrug.gif

erigeron is offline  
#166 of 170 Old 10-02-2013, 12:21 AM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

erigeron, totally!

 

I'm arguing for kids to be seen as individuals and for it to be recognised that some kids are poorer socially than others. I am not saying that boys are poorer listeners per se. I am saying that we can't take a blanket "no punishment" approach because kids are not from a cookie cutter. 

 

And I think that those kids really simply need clear guidelines and consequences which to some parents is punishment. 


Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#167 of 170 Old 10-02-2013, 05:25 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,345
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

^^^ Couldn't agree more. 

erigeron is offline  
#168 of 170 Old 10-02-2013, 12:42 PM
 
filamentary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: glassell park, los angeles, ca
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fillyjonk View Post
 

My oldest, a boy just doesn't notice when people model stuff. He's off with the fairies a lot of the time really. He's very absorbed in his own world. He wants clear, quick answers, in the, to him, non-ideal situation that he can't just do as he likes :rotflmao. But where these answers don't coincide with what brings him joy, he then sometimes kicks off or does as he likes. 

 

My daughters, totally different. They pick up on the cues, the hints. They notice that we speak quieter and take our shoes off when we enter the house. Generally they do it. And ds is still there singing loudly in his mucky trainers.

 
when i came back to this thread to catch up, i had to go back and read what the previous recent comments had been that prompted the discussion about boys/girls.  got to this and realized that if you'd happened to just say "my oldest" and not specified "a boy" and then instead of saying "my daughters", had said "the younger siblings", the whole thing would have sounded different.  i am very disinclined to believe there are any biological ways that a prepubescent child displays anything sex-related except what they learn from the world around them, so when i read this, i am naturally doing one of two things: assuming cultural training, or setting it aside as irrelevant and looking at what else might be different (if anything).  you explain very clearly that you are doing a lot to prevent sexed socialization, so my next thought is, well, he's not different b/c he's being a boy.  he's different b/c either (a) he's just a different individual or (b) there are actually differences in how he was raised.  i am very curious, actually, about how different the experience is of the oldest child (or an only child), who is born into a family of only adults, from the experiences of younger siblings.  so that was one thing that immediately sprung to mind.  he is the oldest.  maybe that has nothing to do with it.  but maybe it does, and i was just pondering.
 
i've decided up front i only want one kid, so there are a lot of things i won't ever have to concern myself with.  but i'm still very interested & curious, b/c it seems to be a recurrent theme on these message boards that things are never the same for one kid versus multiples, and the oldest often becomes harder to parent the way you like/originally intended when subsequent kids come along.  that there are almost certain inevitabilities.  like, maybe there are certain kids (like your son) who don't seem to pick up on what you model, so they'd require extra time and effort if you ever wanted to pull off a 100% punishment-free parenting style, that you just literally do not have enough of b/c you have to be a parent to all your children, so there are necessary compromises so that you're being fair to all of them.  and, admittedly, it is in part these perceived inevitabilities that dissuade me from wanting more than one child (and i'm basically expecting a high-needs child, since this temperament seems to run in my family).  (it is also just a practical matter of the size of our home and budget, and everything in this lifestyle we're leading is scaled to the simple & compact, so a miniature family makes sense, but that's another topic altogether... :D )

will be TTC in late 2014 w/ frozen donor sperm via at-home ICI. queer, 32. DW is 41.  married 10 yrs. 
 
             and soon          
filamentary is offline  
#169 of 170 Old 10-02-2013, 01:19 PM
 
Fillyjonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 825
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)

"

when i came back to this thread to catch up, i had to go back and read what the previous recent comments had been that prompted the discussion about boys/girls.  got to this and realized that if you'd happened to just say "my oldest" and not specified "a boy" and then instead of saying "my daughters", had said "the younger siblings", the whole thing would have sounded different.  i am very disinclined to believe there are any biological ways that a prepubescent child displays anything sex-related except what they learn from the world around them, so when i read this, i am naturally doing one of two things: assuming cultural training, or setting it aside as irrelevant and looking at what else might be different (if anything).  you explain very clearly that you are doing a lot to prevent sexed socialization, so my next thought is, well, he's not different b/c he's being a boy.  he's different b/c either (a) he's just a different individual or (b) there are actually differences in how he was raised.  i am very curious, actually, about how different the experience is of the oldest child (or an only child), who is born into a family of only adults, from the experiences of younger siblings.  so that was one thing that immediately sprung to mind.  he is the oldest.  maybe that has nothing to do with it.  but maybe it does, and i was just pondering.
" by filamentary
 
Ok this is what I am going to say. It is long, I don't have time to edit, I've tried to break it up. Don't mind whether people read it or not really but thought it deserved a proper reply.
 
First, yk. I am really not ignorant about gender, or sexuality. I lived in a queer female commune for years. Really, I get the theory. I'd say, if you (collective you, not one poster) have a problem with what I am saying, based on my experience, you probably have zero chance with the 99% of parents who think I'm a dangerous amoral liberal. I do genuinely think that the way a few people have taken what I've said here pretty much stops debate. Now I don't care that much, but I do feel, more generally, as someone who broadly agrees only not really here, that way of arguing is enormously counter productive. its always better to actually listen to what people are saying rather than try to put up straw men. 
 
Second, I'm basing what I am saying on experience, not theory, Experience of my kids and many others. Ten years child raising. My experience does not tally with my theories. That's a pain. Its also parenting in a nutshell. I was a much better parent before my kids were born, and I was a great parent of tweens when my kids were toddlers. I think, finally, ask me about teenagers and I might admit I don't know. Parenting is complex and messy and my experience is that it grows more complex and also, more fun, as they get older.  
 

I'm not massively interested in defending myself.  I really am happy with how I parent, and I'm really not sure how happy I am to put my parenting under the spotlight like this. TBH I'm posting mainly because I see that most people criticising have kids much, much younger than mine and I remember those days well, and really, rather than a curt reply, I'd like to encourage anyone to raise their kids to be critical of gender. These criticisms are misplaced, but at least they come from questioning and that's exciting. 

 

But I think, if this is something people want to discuss, its better on another thread. This one has too much baggage, and-and I don't mean this unkindly-I'm not massively interested, as someone who has been parenting a decade and who has three kids-in having my parenting dissected by those with one kid, with younger kids, or none at all. I don't mean that unkindly, its just it does nothing for me.

 

I'm happy to contribute to a discussion thread on nature vs nurture in gender, raising kids as gender-blindly as possible, etc.  I am happy to talk with anyone at all about this stuff. But it feels to me right now that my actual experience is being dismissed or explained away, because it doesn't fit with theory, and that really does nothing for me, I'm afraid. This is a real phenomenon I'm describing, and I think a lot of parents of tween boys would concur. Honestly, I've come to the painful conclusion that its more productive for feminists to find ways to raise their sons as questioning, aware young men than try to deny this.

 

There are real, deep, issues here and my feeling is that our first priority is to raise boys who don't see themselves as narrowly, defensively, male, who get what's wrong with pornography, who really don't get why on earth "gay" should be an insult, who stand up and say no when the rape jokes start. Who can cook and clean and don't see a female partner as a potential slave or emotional or physical punchbag. That's my first task with my son right now. 10 is far too old for him or I not to recognise that his experience as a boy is different to mine or his sisters. Better by far that his father and I actively encourage discussion and questioning of this, of inherent privilege. He may run around like a crazed windmill but he'll also tell a friend that they can't exclude the girls, that boys can like pink, that his cousins have two dads and what on earth is funny about that? I dunno, I feel that those of us with tween boys have some real work here, and that's really where my attention lies. Whether there are actual differences between girls and boys...well I've done everything to mitigate them and they are there. Not much more I can do but work with what I have. I'm a bit beyond the theories really, lovely as they are.

starling&diesel and One_Girl like this.

Raising Geek_Generation_2.0 :LET ds= 10 ; LET dd1= ds - 2; LET dd2=dd-2; IF month=0.67 THEN LET ds = ds+1; 
Fillyjonk is offline  
#170 of 170 Old 10-02-2013, 07:09 PM
 
filamentary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: glassell park, los angeles, ca
Posts: 75
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i feel like these message boards are so often about such incredibly personal aspects of our lives, that it's actually pretty cool & amazing how mature & supportive the vast majority of things said tend to be. on the one hand, some of us, maybe seeking to learn & grow, have to be ready to find something well-thought-out come under unexpected scrutiny, then sort out our thoughts about that feedback from the strong feelings that may accompany that... i am still immune from this experience to a large degree since i've got the youngest little one! (not conceived yet, hehe)... but in any case, i am and will continue to try to stay aware of that, so i can have & make interesting conversation while remaining sensitive to the deeply human, personal nature of the topics here. that said, i hope that my last comment wasn't construed as critical, fillyjonk. i honestly couldn't make out for certain the tone of the things in your reply that were in response to what you quoted from my previous reply (that's a mouthful!), but i certainly felt that, having been lurking in so many of the same threads lately, we had a bit of rapport, so i guess i expected my comments to come across as neutral or positive. i hope they did (like i said, i can't entirely tell). but do believe me when i say i am genuinely not trying to criticize.

will be TTC in late 2014 w/ frozen donor sperm via at-home ICI. queer, 32. DW is 41.  married 10 yrs. 
 
             and soon          
filamentary is offline  
Reply

Tags
Gentle Discipline , Positive Discipline , P E T Parent Effectiveness Training , Unconditional Parenting Moving From Rewards And Punishments To Love And Reason , Beyond Discipline From Compliance To Community , Popular On Mothering In 2013

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off