Question for those w/ children/toddlers who 'misbehave': - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 19 Old 03-17-2014, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
 
germin8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 455
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

I'm very new to GD... as a matter of fact, I know nothing about it, but am looking into it and might implement... (My kids are 15 months and 3.5 yrs ol)

 

I have a question for those whose children 'misbehave... whether tantrum, biting, hitting, etc...

 

I am wondering where they learn this: Are your children exposed to the media? (watch television, play video games, online videos/commercials, or even told stories about such behaviour). I assume most children are at-home. If not and not exposed to media, are any of those children in day care where they might learn this behaviour? How long before said misbehaviour stopped. And, if they are not exposed to media, how long before it stopped?


Sorry if too wordy'...


Super Mom.  Super Wife.  Super Tired.
germin8 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 of 19 Old 03-17-2014, 06:25 PM
 
fisherfamily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

I think children learn these things from lots of places.

 

Often, I think they actually are pushed to it by their own doting parents.  I know that sounds crazy, but how many moms wouldn't hesitate to take something, like a pen or a leaf or something, out of their 8-9 month olds hand.  Probably wouldn't say much, just reach over and take it.  Every time that happens, the baby learns that if you want something you take it.  Fast forward 9 more months and you have a toddler that grabs other toddlers toys.  Also, when you reach for something, they throw a fit.  But, if I expected that at any second the big people might take whatever I had, I might get snippy, too.  It's just this basic lack of respect (that seems like we are caring for the babies), that teaches them to respond the way they do.  What about the baby passing game?  You know, everyone wants to hold and kiss the baby.  Baby is learning that people (he, himself) don't have rights or autonomy.  Bigger stronger people can do whatever they want to to you.  How to get what you want?  Be bigger and stronger.  I believe most infants have this figured out looooong before they are punished or exposed to other kids behavior.   Add in time outs or spanking or whatever, and a healthy dose of other kids fighting it out (being left to "work it out" is the philosophy), and it's no wonder the littles are acting like bullies and terrorists.  It's the only want to get things done.  I mean, that's what all the adults do. 

 

My kids don't hit or grab or throw fits, unless they have been around other kids that do.  I hate that.  I feel like I have to watch them constantly to be sure they are respected, bodily.  They definitely bring it home.  Just this morning, I had to address lying, grabbing, and mean talking because of a play date we had yesterday.  I knew I was going to regret that the kids were playing in the backyard mostly unattended.  The quicker I make it clear that it isn't acceptable here, and focus very hard on what TO do, the quicker it goes away.   Sometimes, we have just had to stop seeing certain kids for a while because they were such a bad influence on my children.  As the kids get older, it does get easier.  My 6 and 9 year olds don't pick up much anymore.  Kids their age have largely grown out of fits and fights, but they do have A LOT of attitude. 

fisherfamily is offline  
#3 of 19 Old 03-17-2014, 06:57 PM
 
PirateQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 14
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)

My kids have done all of that stuff. 

 

They didn't need to be taught.  Those behaviors are normal reactions to stimuli for children in infantile stages of neurological development.  Some of those behaviors are reinforced by adult reactions.  Some of them are self-reinforcing (biting, for example, often feels good on the teeth and gums).  As children's brains develop, their behavior changes.  As a parent, I try to help brain development along by strategically reinforcing behaviors I like and preventing behaviors I don't like.  But just like you can't stop an infant from waking up during the night, you can't stop a toddler from throwing a fit every now and then.  You do what you can to prevent and respond to problems, and then you wait while they grow. 

PirateQueen is offline  
#4 of 19 Old 03-17-2014, 07:39 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

I agree that the behaviors you mentioned are not something that need to be learned. Both of my children bit just a little. I think it was in relationship to gum sensation and nursing. Both hit a couple of times too - as they learned to move their arms and started to learn about reactions to those movements. At the point I am talking about very young children. Tantrums seem to me to be about letting off steam. Both of my kids have had a hand full of true tantrums each. Again, not a learned behavior, IMO. And I say this as a pretty darned effective parent of kids this age - these are normal responses to learning about the world. How a parent responds can have a big impact on whether a child will continue to need to learn about these actions and their reactions but I wouldn't get bogged down in the original instinct if I were you. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#5 of 19 Old 03-17-2014, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
germin8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 455
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)

FisherFamily... I am so glad you mentioned that. Those are the kinds of things that run through my head. Although, I never quite thought about how grabbing something out of my baby's hand would affect them. Wow. Eye-opener. I love all the responses. Thank you. This is a bit of a side from what I intended but too feel I need to be with my kids at all times to monitor what behaviours they might learn from others. I am so glad others do/feel the same way.


Super Mom.  Super Wife.  Super Tired.
germin8 is offline  
#6 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 06:04 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

I will say that I think supervision is very important but my kids have grown quite a bit from me extending my confidence in them that they will behave well in social settings. I also think that the level of understanding that we extend to other children trickles over to our own. I have observed times where I think my DC picked up a temporary reaction to something from one of her friends. I'm sure other parents have observed the same dynamic in reverse. How kids deal with other behaviors is another important thing for them to learn and I do think a certain amount of space for them to navigate these things on their own can really go a long way.  At some point we want to work kids in the direction of playing and being exposed to a variety of behaviors without taking those behaviors on themselves. Of course 15 months is  too young but I think that 3.5 is not too young to start having those sorts of conversations.

 

Part of that process involves modeling how we want our kids to respond to behavior differences - so for me the conversation would include a discussion about developmental skills, differences of opinion and etc. At 3.5 if my DC was involved in a playdate that involved snatching a toy, we may talk about how it was really difficult right then for that child to wait for her to be finished with a toy. We may acknowledge that that child really, really wanted to play with the toy. We may talk about more interesting and nice ways to try to have the toy. We may talk to DC about options for when this sort of thing happens to her. Or maybe when she really wants a toy and feels that urge. We will talk about what a good choice it is for her to decide to leave favorite toys at home (a new and wonderful development we're having right now).   


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#7 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 06:33 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

Also, there is this problem, isn't there, with the idea that our kids learn these behaviors from others?  Where do other kids learn these behaviors?  If it is so easy to pick up negative behaviors, I think what our kids need is some beefing up and skills for learning to deal with instincts that likely lean in that direction. Again, not at 15 months but certainly by 3.5. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#8 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 07:05 AM
 
fisherfamily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well, i know a family who is very punitive and harsh with their children. The children treat other children the way they are treated, and are some of the worst pre-k bullies I have ever seen. My children absolutely do pick up negative behaviors from these kids. And, I can't teach my 3 and 1 year olds to do anything but scream and hope someone comes to their rescue. No, we don't soend much time with them, but when we do, I expect nothing from my children, but expect myself to be watching, quick ti protect and intervene. It isn't fair to put them in that position.

Dd3 has another friend who is sneaky and rude to her mom. Guess what happens after a day together? We can talk about it, sure, but dd is pretty awful when she gets home. I can't trust for a second. So, we limit time there, too. It is too disruptive to our home.

We have another friend who is newly four. He tends to throw fits, and be whiney, among other things. We spend a lot of time with them, and my kids dont seem to pick up anything. Why the difference? His mom is very actively parenting him. And, she immediately stops him from doing things TO my kids. My children know they are safe with them.

I think watching and guiding children is really important, and I would say more like until 5 or 6. They need to be physically big enough to remove themselves from other kids, and have enough maturity to remember their options.

When we are with families like the little boy, I can let my younger kids go off to play. But, often in conservative circles, parents control their children with punishment whenever they find out about what happened. Which means a kid can learn a lot out the yard...or be the victim of a lot of aggression...before any adult notices. Three is too young to process that information.

What I'm trying to say is that its more about the parent than the child. All parents aren't created equal, and your kids have to come first.
fisherfamily is offline  
#9 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 07:29 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

I can't begin to imagine what it is like to have people in my lives that bully their children and/or with children how have such bad behavior so early in life. I'm sure that's hard to deal with. 

 

But, I wanted to mention this problem of blaming our own children's behavior on exposure by other children because although you may well be objective, some other parents may not be. We have only known one child who was especially frustrating to deal with. I do understand that it's difficult. But, I would not have accepted her parent's complaints that this child learned these behaviors from x,y,z any more than I would feel comfortable doing that if my own child behaved poorly.  

 

I think that if our own children are coming home after a playdate with these behaviors then we are compelled to look at these behaviors as understandable. I think doing so goes a long way in the right direction.   

 

I think it's a slippery slope to say something along the lines of, "My kids do these things because they were exposed to it by little Billy. Little Billy does these things because his parents don't know how to discipline."  Yes, it's possible to experience this to a small extent and to discuss it in those terms but if it's a chronic problem I think maybe a more inclusive way of viewing the problem would be more helpful in the long run. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#10 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 07:36 AM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

Also, I want to reiterate that this is very much depending on the age and developmental maturity of the child. No, a 1 year old is not ready to talk about these things. But I do think a 3 year old is. I talk about it to my 3 year old and she understands these things quite well (as evidence by some wonderfully compassionate behavior towards a peer having a tough time at pre-k the other day).   

 

Exposure to children with extreme behavior issues is a different story, which I don't have any experience with outside of a school setting. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#11 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 08:05 AM
 
fisherfamily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)

IdentityCrisisMa- I do agree with you also, very much.  I feel that my point is important for the op because in her circles, she is likely to encounter harshly disciplining parents.  It's the old legalistic rhetoric that makes for very strict parents.  I don't like that word.  I am a very strict parent, with high expectations, but I make that my problem, and not my child's.  I also agree that if my child is picking up bad behaviors, it is because my child isn't ready to handle that scenario.  It is an indication of areas that I need to work on with my child.  My original point is that sometimes it is a sign that our children need protected. 

 

I would never dream of saying my kids threw a fit because they saw the aforementioned boy throwing a fit.  But when they have to scream for protection from the bully kids, I absolutely believe that when they scream when they come home over little things it is because I failed to protect them...and they have now learned when something seems overwhelming or scary they should scream.  That's a fault on my part, but it isn't something that will be overcome by a discussion.  It's an apology to my kids, and a commitment to protect them going forward.

 

I understand that these situations sound extreme, but I also know that many, many children raised in very punitive ways are pretty rough to be around.  It's a whole different thing to deal with. 

 

I just want to also add that these problems with children are not the fault of God's doctrine, but a result of the "spare the rod" philosophy of the ages. 

fisherfamily is offline  
#12 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 08:14 AM
 
fisherfamily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post

 

But, I wanted to mention this problem of blaming our own children's behavior on exposure by other children because although you may well be objective, some other parents may not be. We have only known one child who was especially frustrating to deal with. I do understand that it's difficult. But, I would not have accepted her parent's complaints that this child learned these behaviors from x,y,z any more than I would feel comfortable doing that if my own child behaved poorly.  

 

I agree that it is not appropriate to blame other children for behaviors they have picked up and not deal with them.  Nor is it appropriate to bad mouth another child to another family.  But it is good to notice when another family doesn't have values similar to yours, and have become detrimental to your family.

 

I think it's a slippery slope to say something along the lines of, "My kids do these things because they were exposed to it by little Billy. Little Billy does these things because his parents don't know how to discipline."  Yes, it's possible to experience this to a small extent and to discuss it in those terms but if it's a chronic problem I think maybe a more inclusive way of viewing the problem would be more helpful in the long run. 

 

In the OP's other thread, I posted about how our view of God leads us to discipline in certain ways.  For people who are not in the church, this can be hard to understand.  If your view is that any sin causes you to be lost, you view actions of your children much more gravely than many on these boards do.  This, in turn, causes the child to be blamed and punished, and the parent be very hard on things like lying because they do not want that sin in their child.  So, if you are approaching child raising from a point of the mercy and grace of God, you are fundamentally parenting in a very different vein, and with a very different purpose.  It is the heart of the parent that truly matters in this, and their way of interacting with their children as a result can absolutely be incompatible and extremely difficult.  We can have patience and mercy to these families as well, but the negative impact on our children is real.   Again, I know this is not relevant to all, but may have a particular use to the OP.

fisherfamily is offline  
#13 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 12:47 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)

Thank you for clarifying, FM. I'm not sure I can relate to the religious perspective but I imagine that if misbehavior is tied up in the concept of sin, that a parent would be especially stressed by the occasional (and very normal and developmental) behavior challenge. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#14 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 01:38 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Originally Posted by FisherFamily View Post
 

I also agree that if my child is picking up bad behaviors, it is because my child isn't ready to handle that scenario.  It is an indication of areas that I need to work on with my child.  My original point is that sometimes it is a sign that our children need protected. 

 

I know this is a subtle difference from up thread but I really like this phrasing and really agree with the way you said this.  :thumb

 

I do agree 100% as well when it comes to children feeling physically and emotionally protected during get-togethers. 

 

Also, at 3, I can say that my own DC can melt down at the end of even the nicest playdate/pre-K day. IME, this is typical of this age where kids put a lot of emotional resources into pro-social play and they are running on reserves by the time they are alone with their parents. This has been explained to me as a very positive development by every source I can find. 

 

I know that we are talking about a very different thing if children are exposed to really negative behavior but it's something for the OP to consider. Seeming "misbehavior" following a playdate does not always indicate that there were bad influences - to the contrary, it can sometimes mean that your child was doing a lot of wonderful, exhausting child work and that they have begun to internalize that their parent is a safe place to let-go and release tension. 


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#15 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 01:46 PM
 
ballerina85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Fisher Family.. I think you said it very well! I have a lot of very conservative friends who discipline harshly and just generally don't treat their children with respect. I've actually stopped seeing a few of them because I find it very difficult to watch and I don't want my daughter around it. She is 21 months and has had her share of tantrums and frustration with no outside influence. We are gentle parents, she hasn't been around other kids all that much (i stay home), and she's only recently been allowed to watch a bit of tv (wow we sound like we live under a rock! I promise we get out every day and do not avoid people!). Anyway my point is she did not need to be taught to tantrum she did it all on her own! I do notice that when she is around those families that the kids treat her the same way their parents treat them. It's not very nice they get in her face and yell at her and take toys from her because that's how their parents handle conflict. When we get home my daughter starts yelling at me and her stuffed animals. I don't think I'm wrong in assuming she's learning this from them since she only does this after a play date. I've chosen to just stop being around them and to choose our friends carefully in the future. I also try to supervise her closely around other kids. We have found one really great group where I can just let her run with the kids- incidents happen but they are very well handled by all of the parents and it's a good learning opportunity for my daughter.
ballerina85 is online now  
#16 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 03:30 PM
 
IdentityCrisisMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 10,677
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FisherFamily View Post
So, if you are approaching child raising from a point of the mercy and grace of God, you are fundamentally parenting in a very different vein, and with a very different purpose.  It is the heart of the parent that truly matters in this, and their way of interacting with their children as a result can absolutely be incompatible and extremely difficult.  We can have patience and mercy to these families as well, but the negative impact on our children is real.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ballerina85 View Post

I have a lot of very conservative friends who discipline harshly and just generally don't treat their children with respect. I've actually stopped seeing a few of them because I find it very difficult to watch and I don't want my daughter around it.

 

From an outside perspective it is difficult to understand what these communities have to offer that would make this sort of behavior acceptable to anyone. :(  


Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
IdentityCrisisMama is offline  
#17 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 05:39 PM
 
fisherfamily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 365
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Crazy, huh? I think many of us find ourselves in these situations because when you become a part of community, be it a small town, a bowling club, a band or troop, or a church of some kind, you are sort of agreeing to take people as they are, for a time at least. A smaller, long term community like a church is very much a family, and it is harder to walk away when things aren't quite right. Also, you understand the journey other people are on, and you want to support and help them grow. At some point, you realize that you have been given these precious children, and the environment you must create for them can clash hugely with the support others may need. It can be hard to dissolve those bonds. It even takes a while to see more clearly, down to the heart of the problem.

It is important for everyone to find a community that is healthy for them and their children. There is a time to minister to others, but when your children are small they are the priority.
fisherfamily is offline  
#18 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 05:57 PM
 
ballerina85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Maybe I should have clarified..the communities have lots to offer and the people are nice people just misguided when it comes to discipline.. I've never seen anything that would be classified as physical abuse ("just" spanking on the bum) or anything.. It's mainly yelling and saying harsh things... I've moved around a bit and unfortunately I do find it
To be a common way of thinking in church groups.. Parents are so afraid to spoil their kids, or they are obsessed with unconditional obedience (I wouldn't want that from my child because to me that is not teaching her
To think about what she's doing), and rule following is important because you don't want to be "those parents" I guess..
ballerina85 is online now  
#19 of 19 Old 03-18-2014, 06:00 PM
 
ballerina85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 104
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
A few of them do day some very hurtful things to their kids that I don't want my daughter hearing and all of the yelling is quite stressful for both her and I.. I always want to say something but like fisher family said I know these people and know they are on a journey .. I wouldn't feel right about saying something like "the way you speak to your children is abusive and damaging" .. I just don't know. How to approach it and I also don't think that their would be much change anyway.. I'm usually written off as a crazy, permissive (which I am not) hippy. So I have just tried to find
Other friends..
ballerina85 is online now  
Reply

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off