Need to vent about my almost 3 yo...NVC, CL, UP - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 06-26-2014, 12:57 PM
 
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My advice is a change of mindset.

Old mindset: attention getting is a problem. how can we make it go away?

New mindset: attention getting is normal, the real problem is that I as a parent direct my behavior-getting attention too much toward unwanted behavior rather than wanted behavior.
I think a change of mindset is great advice!

I know that you are very focused on the research and advantages of modifying behavior through attention, whether that be praise in the short term, or ignoring, or in the concern over giving too much negative attention.

I think it's GREAT advice for a parent who is really caught in a negative cycle related to criticism and correction.

I do not agree with giving that advice as a panacea. I think it is good advice to address that singular problem, which I agree exists, but I think giving it without knowing that attention seeking is a root problem gives an impression that praise or ignoring can solve other problems, which I do not think that it can.

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Old 06-26-2014, 01:07 PM
 
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If he shows that he likes something by acting pleasant and pleased, you do it again. Or maybe that's him reinforcing MY good behavior.
This dynamic is the single most powerful natural consequence that drives behavior in our home, IMO. When people are happy and pleasant, other people want to do things with and for them. I try very hard to be on my children's side no matter what, but they know that I'm generally more enthusiastic and efficient when they are cooperative.

There was a thread a while ago that talked about this and a very interesting (and philosophical) parent cautioned that there is potential for that reality to warp into control/manipulation/behavior modification. I think that's a good point but I am still going to embrace the reality that we all prefer to have a good time. ;-)

OP, if you can find a way to make it more enjoyable and interesting for your child to be nice to the dog, you have a GREAT enforcer.

I think that parents who are worried about coercion can sometimes "see" this in places that other people just pass off as "life". And, that can feel very complicated (and nuanced) to a parent who is aware and concerned about the power they have over the lives of their children.

My vote is to have CL in your heart and let the realities of the world work in your favor.

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Old 06-26-2014, 02:05 PM
 
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I don't think it's a panacea or cure-all either.

In the OP, BushMama83 said she is explaining again and again. Explaining involves giving a lot of attention and face-time. If the explaining is done as a reaction to the behavior (if the timing is right) then it could be acting as a reinforcer.

On the other hand, pestering the dog seems to be intrinsically rewarding to the kid. So, attention is certainly not the only reinforcer, in that case. It's a good idea to encourage acceptable ways for her son to enjoy interactions with the dog. I was getting my 2 and 5 year old grand-kids involved in training my dog with treats just a week ago. I think captain optimism had a good suggestion.
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Old 06-26-2014, 04:22 PM
 
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I don't think it's a panacea or cure-all either.

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Old 06-26-2014, 04:54 PM
 
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@tadamsmar - if your children are grown and you don't work in the area why are you so well versed in this? Is it to influence your grandchildren's parents or guide their parenting? I'm confused.
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Old 06-26-2014, 05:39 PM
 
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Not sure if it is possible to satiate the desire for attention. There is evidence that it involves the dopamine response and may be kind of addictive.
I would be interested to talk more about this theory on another thread and I know that all our fellow parents on this thread are probably pretty well-read on child development but I question how highly regarded this sentiment is in the field.

Everything I have read about child development indicates to me that a high need for attention in young children and toddlers is perfectly developmental and that it is entirely possible to meet that need.

Greater than the tendency for parents to enforce negative behavior with attention, are parents and caregivers in our ever disconnected world who have trouble finding the time to give children the attention they truly need.

I have a toddler and I can tell you that it is entirely possible to satiate her need for attention. In fact, it's pretty easy (when we are in sync) and I think you often find that children who are satiated end up very independent and who play quite well on their own.

So, while I agree with some of what you have advised, I think the solution to some of the very behavior problems you are seeing may well be MORE attention. In fact, it may well be some of those quality moments you have with your grandkids that are creating the more significant positive effect.

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Old 06-26-2014, 06:29 PM
 
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@tadamsmar - if your children are grown and you don't work in the area why are you so well versed in this? Is it to influence your grandchildren's parents or guide their parenting? I'm confused.
I tried to answer that in this post:

Need to vent about my almost 3 yo...NVC, CL, UP

The original goal was to influence my grandchildren's parents, but now I am really just interested in the situation with all these conflicting philosophies and all the problems parents have and things they do.

These days, I don't have any real expectation of to influence my grandchildren's parents or guide their parenting. I think it's pretty much impossible to do that to any significant extent. It's a lot easier to influence someone asking for help on a forum like this, and perhaps help them.

I think the rule is that if a parent does not ask for help, you probably can't help them.

I have some influence on the two I raised from birth or a young age (perhaps because parents tend to parent like their own parents), but one of them can't really influence his spouse, not sure about the other since their kid just turned 1, to early to tell, he might be good at it anyway.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:23 PM
 
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It's a lot easier to influence someone asking for help on a forum like this, and perhaps help them.
I have been posting her for like 12 years now. I think members who come back to parenting and share their stories here are wonderfully generous and valuable. I do think there can be a bit of tension if giving advice from outside of the "trenches" though.

The thing is, is that we forget things. I will probably never again in my life be able to 100% sympathize with a sleep deprived parent of an infant. Or the pain of breastfeeding through after pains. I remember it, sure, but not quite in the same way as someone in it, obviously.

Also, those of us posting to offer support are also often posting for support ourselves. So,while I may feel like I have all the answers to the OP's question on this thread (I don't but in case I come off that way), I have posted in this form MANY times to get help for something I was struggling with.

I know you shared your story about how bribery didn't work well with your child, which was appreciated by me. As was your voice for being mindful about rewarding unwanted behavior (I actually read this same advice on a Natural Child article, which I find generally pretty progressive and "AP"/GD).

My point is not to make you feel unwelcome but, rather to point out that if you are not here to learn but, rather give advice, please be aware that praise and withholding feedback, although fitting with GD (IMO), are both on the rather conservative end of the GD spectrum. I believe that if you were actually parenting right now (not grand parenting, which is miles different - and I have VERY involved parents), I think that some of the limitations of this type of discipline would be apparent in more than just a theoretical way.

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Old 06-27-2014, 06:25 AM
 
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I know you shared your story about how bribery didn't work well with your child, which was appreciated by me. As was your voice for being mindful about rewarding unwanted behavior (I actually read this same advice on a Natural Child article, which I find generally pretty progressive and "AP"/GD).
There are at least two types of rewarding:

1. Making a tit for tat offer in advance "If you do this then I will do that", and then following through. I was trying to use this to get better grades.

2. Catching them being good. There is no offer, the parent just makes it a routine part of the kid's environment. The reward can be subtle and the kid might not even consciously think of it as a reward or payoff.

Same distinction holds between planned ignoring vs. using logical consequences where explain the the consequences in advance or threats.

Kazdin recommends use of tit for tat (point charts) as one option if there is a need to get a behavior going. If the behavior is already happening you can just use "catching them being good" to encourage it. He recommends using social reinforcement along with tangible rewards (point charts) at all times, and then fading out the point charts. I think lots of parents who use Kazdin overlook the limited role of point charts. The get all hung up in the point charts. Kind of like the way some parents overuse time-out. Parenting methods are very prone to "technology transfer" failures, it's a big problem.

Last edited by tadamsmar; 06-27-2014 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 06-27-2014, 06:50 AM
 
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I do believe that the correction of the colloquial vs. legal use of the term bribery is unnecessary - I'm sure all of us understand this distinction. If you would like to start a thread about your reading and philosophical take on those things, I would be happy to join you. Out of respect for the original topic, which I am aware of my big part in taking off track, I will focus on the OP in future post on this thread.

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Old 06-27-2014, 09:19 AM
 
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I have been posting her for like 12 years now. I think members who come back to parenting and share their stories here are wonderfully generous and valuable. I do think there can be a bit of tension if giving advice from the trenches.

I agree that people who have btdt can be great sources of information.
I also agree that it can be annoying to get advice from outside the trenches. I personally have two overbearing inlaws who give advice based on information they got in the 70s. It's like they're frozen in time ad they refuse to educate themselves on current advice, just trying all the time to get us to parent like its 1979 pushing soothers, early weening, whatever. It has gotten better but it's still highly annoying! Especially when they didn't have student loans, didn't have to have both parents working full time with *two* small babies, things were just different back then, and they do a lot of hypothesizing "if I was in your shoes i imagine I would..." Like I say it has become way better but mostly because we keep our distance. These forums are the perfect place to give solicited advice though!
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