Down on AP (and very suspicious) - Page 2 - Mothering Forums

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#31 of 124 Old 11-09-2014, 09:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Good Enough Mum View Post
the burden of taking care of children should NOT BE FALLING ON WOMEN JUST BY VIRTUE OF US BEING WOMEN.
yes! i wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. =)

if doing AP + cosleeping w/ breastfeeding on demand (incl at night), that is a significant period of interrupted sleep (easily 2+ yrs per kid) for the breastfeeding momma, specifically. since the OP was specifically talking about the AP stuff w/ the new baby, i was thinking about this early period in particular.

i was, of course, bursting at the seams to veer into the topic of dads (or other non-birth parents), which is why i make a couple nods toward that point. but my comment was already not very concise, so i had to restrain myself.

glad you added it though. people really do overlook this way too much. if non-birth parents aren't being equal partners in parenting, it's really sad. do moms just accept that their partners are socialized inadequately to be capable/willing? divorce? i've seen WAY too many heartbreaking posts on here that describe, essentially, that dilemma.

it's when i realize how frequently men don't construe their roles as parents as being as fully involved as their wives that i feel so lucky i don't have to navigate that issue. people often fall in love and commit to each other long before having kids or figuring out what kind of parents they'd be, so i think it can be a sudden & tragic discovery at the worst possible time.

i hope mommas who have husbands like this are somehow still able to raise boys who will grow up to be different, to create awesome husbands for the next generation, but i suspect they'll be learning more from the example set for them, so this seems a difficult problem to solve.

demanding workplaces that actually support the family values our country is supposedly so into, though, seems like something we should still try to make happen. then whatever the situation at home, regardless how much help there may or may not be from a second parent, the BFing AP momma can get cut some slack for a couple years with each kid (for a lot of women, that's 4 to 6 years of BFing nights in the course if her career).
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#32 of 124 Old 11-10-2014, 07:43 PM
 
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I'm a working mom and breastfed and baby wore and did that stuff. My husband and I don't have a lot of money and a lot of things we did for practicality reasons, like cloth diapering. Rather than finding them oppressive, we found them cheap. And cheap was good.

As for balancing work and parenting, I think it's a distraction to say that a certain parenting philosophy is oppressive of women. The parenting style isn't the point. Ultimately, feminism doesn't care whether you fed your kid the organic carrots or not. The point is that society and workplaces should be making accommodations to parents during their children's young years; that is the feminist thing to do. Because women--even moms!--have beautiful minds and productive spirits and have useful things to contribute to society besides parenting, and they have to be able to work if they want to or need to. Workplaces should be made to accommodate that.

It's a lot easier to be an attachment parent--or really any kind of parent you please--when your job is held for you for a year while you take maternity leave, when the state pays you a stipend while you take time off, when daycare is subsidized for you when you return to work, and work schedules are flexible to accommodate the needs of parents with young children.

As for reading a book and having wine, I did that while nursing my son all the time.
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#33 of 124 Old 11-11-2014, 05:08 AM
 
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One other thing to add is that here at MDC "AP" and "NFL" are often used together. In reality, they are two different things. Sure, you can make an argument that caring for the Earth is the ultimate thing we can do as parents...but that's sort of a huge, broad extension of AP. There are a lot of things that are often associated with AP, which really aren't part of AP at all - not cloth diapering, not environmental food choices, not where we birth, not how we educate our kids, not which medical choices we make. Yes, many of us choose the crunchy route for these things...but by absolutely no means to most AP parents choose all those same things, yk?

I would even say that baby wearing and co-sleeping aren't AP necessarily. I think there are values that are easier to achieve by doing those things that are AP. Like physical connection in infancy and early childhood. The need to be held is real, IMO. Gentle sleep solutions, IMO, is important. That does not mean that we have to sleep with our kids for a long time. But that we strive for solutions to sleep that are gentle. OP, if you tried Ferber and it seemed humane - maybe it was. Maybe your child was ready to fall asleep on her/his own. I wasn't there and won't judge. I have heard of parents who have different values about sleep letting their child cry to the point of vomiting in their bed. Or crying for long periods of distress. I will go out on limb and say that this is not AP and, IMO, is not good for babies. But, while I do co-sleep, I KNOW that I can get my 3.5 year old to sleep in her own bed gently. If I chose to do that, I don't lose any AP points. ;-)

And as far as boundaries. Oh, my gosh! One of my pet peeves with gentle discipline is this outside (and sometimes inside) view that GD is permissive. It isn't! Permissive parenting is terrible for kids. Firm boundaries are fine, GOOD! As is being real and authentic with our kids. Parents having real emotions is necessary for our kids to see. I have two daughters. They absolutely need to see me be a well-rounded, authentic woman.
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#34 of 124 Old 11-11-2014, 08:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichelleZB View Post
I'm a working mom and breastfed and baby wore and did that stuff. My husband and I don't have a lot of money and a lot of things we did for practicality reasons, like cloth diapering. Rather than finding them oppressive, we found them cheap. And cheap was good.

As for balancing work and parenting, I think it's a distraction to say that a certain parenting philosophy is oppressive of women. The parenting style isn't the point. Ultimately, feminism doesn't care whether you fed your kid the organic carrots or not. The point is that society and workplaces should be making accommodations to parents during their children's young years; that is the feminist thing to do. Because women--even moms!--have beautiful minds and productive spirits and have useful things to contribute to society besides parenting, and they have to be able to work if they want to or need to. Workplaces should be made to accommodate that.

It's a lot easier to be an attachment parent--or really any kind of parent you please--when your job is held for you for a year while you take maternity leave, when the state pays you a stipend while you take time off, when daycare is subsidized for you when you return to work, and work schedules are flexible to accommodate the needs of parents with young children.

As for reading a book and having wine, I did that while nursing my son all the time.
Agreed! Especially with the bolded.
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#35 of 124 Old 11-11-2014, 07:40 PM
 
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More thoughts: AP isn't a one-size-fits-all how-to parenting instructions. It's a set of guidelines that lets parents tailor their parenting to each of their children. One of my children slept in our bed until age 2 and in our room until age 4 and nursed for over two years. Another of our children went to a crib in her own room when she was 4 months old and quit nursing at 9 months. I listened to them instead of insisting that they followed the "rules" set up by someone who had never met them.

Chris--extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, babywearing, co-sleeping, APing, CLW, homeschooling before any of this was a trend mom to Joy (1/78), Erica (8/80), Angela (9/84), Dylan (2/98)
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#36 of 124 Old 11-12-2014, 07:18 AM
 
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This book (Love at Goon Park) is a good one to see how much the pendulum swung against attachment during the first half of the 20th century:

Amazon Amazon

It may be true that all the AP practices that are in vogue now are not necessary to insure a child's well being, but there was a definite scientifically verifiable need for a movement toward attachment in the 20th Century.

And, at the other extreme of the pendulum:

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Since the 1990s there have been a number of prosecutions for deaths or serious maltreatment of children at the hands of "attachment therapists" or parents following their instructions. Two of the most well-known cases are those of Candace Newmaker in 2000 and the Gravelles in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_therapy

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#37 of 124 Old 11-14-2014, 01:00 PM
 
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But attachment therapy is different from attachment parenting. I get that attachment theory may give rise to both, but I think what a lot of people are calling Attachment Parenting is just a more instinctual type of parenting that is a counterpart to being detached from your infants, toddlers and children for many hours a day.
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#38 of 124 Old 11-14-2014, 01:28 PM
 
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But attachment therapy is different from attachment parenting. I get that attachment theory may give rise to both, but I think what a lot of people are calling Attachment Parenting is just a more instinctual type of parenting that is a counterpart to being detached from your infants, toddlers and children for many hours a day.
Exactly! I think a lot of times, if we dropped the labels, we'd be a lot more comfortable in our own skin as parents. I do think that the labels have arisen much in the last generation with the internet and parents utilizing more "experts" than necessarily family member advice/tradition. Since they seek advice or opinion/guidance, there has to be some label in which they can more closely connect.

I consider myself very AP..yet I don't necessarily "do" or "not do" some things that other AP parents may do or not do. I also have learned what is best for us and have gained confidence. Much of that came through not comparing myself as our situation will never be the same as another family experience.

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#39 of 124 Old 11-15-2014, 07:11 AM
 
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Jut in case there was any confusion, attachment parenting doesnt cause death.
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#40 of 124 Old 11-17-2014, 05:14 AM
 
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Sears recommends "holding therapy". He claims some kids "need" the holding approach. But he warns:

Quote:
Avoid forceful restraint. If holding makes your child furious and escalates the tantrum, loosen your hold or quit holding. Your child needs support, not anger. (Forcefully holding onto your child when your child needs to release from you is controlling too much.)
http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/par...oddlers-handle

Holding may or may not be corporal punishment, but it is certainly a corporal procedure. "corporal" means bodily. Parents need to be careful with corporal procedures. Forcing an uncooperative kid to sit in time out is also a corporal procedure and there has been at least one publicly reported injury to a kid from that. And, excessive spanking is responsible for a few deaths. Candace Newmaker's death was caused by a very excessive form of holding therapy.

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#41 of 124 Old 11-17-2014, 07:37 AM
 
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From Dr sears site:


"Feel your way through the tantrum
Avoid forceful restraint. If holding makes your child furious and escalates the tantrum, loosen your hold or quit holding. Your child needs support, not anger. (Forcefully holding onto your child when your child needs to release from you is controlling too much.)"


He is referring to a typical 2yo's melt down, not a child scarred by reactive attachment disorder. I assure you that in 20 yrs of APing 2 kids, never once have I left them wrapped in a blanket covered in their own excrement.

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#42 of 124 Old 11-17-2014, 07:40 AM
 
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Also, from Wikipedia (fwiw):

This form of treatment differs significantly from evidence-based attachment-based therapies, talking psychotherapies such as attachment-based psychotherapy and relational psychoanalysis or the form of attachment parenting advocated by the pediatrician William Sears. Further, the form of rebirthing sometimes used within attachment therapy differs from Rebirthing-Breathwork.

Emphasis mine
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Bring back the old MDC
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#43 of 124 Old 11-17-2014, 10:03 AM
 
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The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children (APSAC) says "attachment parenting techniques...involving...psychologically and physically enforced holding...should not be used"

http://www.cebc4cw.org/topic/attachm...ld-adolescent/

Now, Dr. Sears puts a nice spin on his holding therapy: "Other times, when they have lost control, they want someone bigger and wiser to take hold of them lovingly and securely take charge. Try: “You’re angry and I’m going to hold you until you get control of yourself because I love you.” Soon the tantrum will fizzle and you will feel your flailing child melt into your arms as if thanking you for rescuing him from himself." (emphasis mine), but holding a flailing child this way and saying the things he says to say is psychologically and physically enforced holding.
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#44 of 124 Old 11-17-2014, 12:21 PM
 
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You dont know what you are talking about. Forced anything, isnt an attachment parenting principle despite the paragragh you quoted.

Your posts are deliberately inflammatory and woefully ignorant.
....and basically really annoying.
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#45 of 124 Old 11-17-2014, 12:28 PM
 
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by blessedwithboys View Post
Also, from Wikipedia (fwiw):

This form of treatment differs significantly from evidence-based attachment-based therapies, talking psychotherapies such as attachment-based psychotherapy and relational psychoanalysis or the form of attachment parenting advocated by the pediatrician William Sears. Further, the form of rebirthing sometimes used within attachment therapy differs from Rebirthing-Breathwork.

Emphasis mine

I wanted your message at the bottom of your posts to be included in the quote,-IE, bring back the old MDC alright!!!

What now, AP causes death and involves forced holding?! Now its abuse?



Please please, bring back the old mdc
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#46 of 124 Old 11-17-2014, 12:45 PM
 
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The American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children (APSAC) says "attachment parenting techniques...involving...psychologically and physically enforced holding...should not be used"

http://www.cebc4cw.org/topic/attachm...ld-adolescent/

Now, Dr. Sears puts a nice spin on his holding therapy: "Other times, when they have lost control, they want someone bigger and wiser to take hold of them lovingly and securely take charge. Try: “You’re angry and I’m going to hold you until you get control of yourself because I love you.” Soon the tantrum will fizzle and you will feel your flailing child melt into your arms as if thanking you for rescuing him from himself." (emphasis mine), but holding a flailing child this way and saying the things he says to say is psychologically and physically enforced holding.
I absolutely agree with your link but not your connection with Sears (who is no great love of mine, btw), which (to repeat) mentions this: "Avoid forceful restraint. If holding makes your child furious and escalates the tantrum, loosen your hold or quit holding. Your child needs support, not anger. (Forcefully holding onto your child when your child needs to release from you is controlling too much.)"

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/par...oddlers-handle

I do think it wise to address holding therapy within the context of Attachment Parenting (again, different from Attachment Therapy!) because one can see the advice from Sears taken out of context and used to a tragic end. Still, that seems a bit off topic (and perhaps a bit off target too).

In the end, this goes to demonstrate that we shouldn't make gurus or dogmas out of any of this.

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#47 of 124 Old 11-20-2014, 05:32 PM
 
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Attachment, and holding, therapy is for children from traumatic backgrounds.
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#48 of 124 Old 12-17-2014, 09:02 PM
 
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Attachment, and holding, therapy is for children from traumatic backgrounds.
Here's an example:

http://www.interactingwithautism.com...ons/details/31

I'm not at all familiar with the website. It came up in a Google search. But I remembered this movie from when I was a kid and recall even then being slightly horrified with "rage reduction" holding therapy.

I attachment parented two boys, one who is now grown and out of college. I held them through more tantrums than I could ever possibly count. I also allowed them to experience some tantrums on their own, with me nearby but not in actual physical contact. But at no time did I ever forcibly pin my child down, stuff them in a box, or roll them in blanket burritos.

(Disclaimer: I totally just lied there. I once used every ounce of strength I had to keep my up-til-then-undiagnosed manic/borderline psychotic 8yo from leaping out a fourth floor window. And when he was 3-4yo, we used to roll him a comforter for prope-therapy but I always left his head mostly uncovered. )

Bring back the old MDC

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#49 of 124 Old 12-18-2014, 06:24 AM
 
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"Holding therapy is based on the erroneous notion that autism is a disorder of attachment caused by a parent’s failure to bond with their child. In a holding therapy session, a caregiver physically restrains a child with autism in order to force eye contact and repair attachment. This treatment has been deemed ineffective and dangerous. There is no scientific evidence suggesting that holding therapy works and fatalities have resulted from its use."

http://www.autismsciencefoundation.o...sed-treatments
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#50 of 124 Old 12-24-2014, 09:03 PM
 
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Hey muddie, what is the point of the quote you posted?

No one here is advocating this form of "therapy". We are simply pointing out that attachment parenting and attachment therapy are not the same thing.

Gentle proprioceptive input can soothe a tantruming toddler. This is not abuse.

I think maybe you just don't know anything about attachment parenting and so you are confused.

What are the ages of your kids? What techniques have you used to calm tantruming toddlers?

Bring back the old MDC
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#51 of 124 Old 12-25-2014, 01:33 PM
 
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Hey muddie, what is the point of the quote you posted?

No one here is advocating this form of "therapy". We are simply pointing out that attachment parenting and attachment therapy are not the same thing.

Gentle proprioceptive input can soothe a tantruming toddler. This is not abuse.

I think maybe you just don't know anything about attachment parenting and so you are confused.

What are the ages of your kids? What techniques have you used to calm tantruming toddlers?
I think you are right. She doesnt know much at all about this subject. After reading a few of her posts in different places (they've been popping up around the place), im getting a mental picture of a first year student playing around with concepts from a text book without much context, maybe even a high school student....

If im wrong,,youre last two questions are good ones.
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#52 of 124 Old 12-27-2014, 04:17 AM
 
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I ignore tantrums. I get up and walk away from them. It's known to be a proven method and it works well for me. Many parents seem to be amazingly ignorant about what works in parenting. Worst than that, many will not even try the proven methods when they learn about them.


If the tantrum were truly harmful, rather than just a lot of harmless noise and movement, I'd try a different proven method since I could not merely ignore them, but that has never happened in my family.
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#53 of 124 Old 12-27-2014, 06:31 AM
 
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Quote:
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I ignore tantrums. I get up and walk away from them. It's known to be a proven method and it works well for me. Many parents seem to be amazingly ignorant about what works in parenting. Worst than that, many will not even try the proven methods when they learn about them.


If the tantrum were truly harmful, rather than just a lot of harmless noise and movement, I'd try a different proven method since I could not merely ignore them, but that has never happened in my family.


Is this meant to be posted to this thread?

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#54 of 124 Old 12-27-2014, 06:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddie View Post
I ignore tantrums. I get up and walk away from them. It's known to be a proven method and it works well for me. Many parents seem to be amazingly ignorant about what works in parenting. Worst than that, many will not even try the proven methods when they learn about them.


If the tantrum were truly harmful, rather than just a lot of harmless noise and movement, I'd try a different proven method since I could not merely ignore them, but that has never happened in my family.
Lots of methods are "proven" to work. Different kids often need different strategies.
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#55 of 124 Old 12-27-2014, 07:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post


Is this meant to be posted to this thread?

blessedwithboys asked me:



"What techniques have you used to calm tantruming toddlers?"


So I was answering that question about the technique that I used to prevent tantrums with my kids. I used it early for prevention, but it can also be used to do a turn-around.
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#56 of 124 Old 12-27-2014, 07:46 AM
 
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I don't view it as oppressive. I view it as what do my babies and children need. What do I want to give them, what do I want them to pass on to the rest of the world. For me those answers revolve around peace, gentleness, respectful giving relationships, care for the earth and all creatures around them. It is a big order to fill and one that our culture does not do well at all which means I am going to have to take on a much bigger load. It's hard, really hard, but I just can't do it the other way.
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#57 of 124 Old 12-27-2014, 01:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muddie View Post
blessedwithboys asked me:



"What techniques have you used to calm tantruming toddlers?"


So I was answering that question about the technique that I used to prevent tantrums with my kids. I used it early for prevention, but it can also be used to do a turn-around.
Oh, sorry. I didn't see that. I rarely actively ignore my kids - feels cold but I am conscious of what sorts of energy I put towards certain things. I will say that I had one child that RARELY (like twice!) tantrum-ed and she got the "best of me" in terms of traditional AP. Whether that was temperament or parenting is too hard to tell. My younger does tantrum but I've got to say that what she's telling me is that she's had a crap day (not enough attention, too much TV/unhealthy foods, to much "in a minute", not enough out-door play". If ignoring stops a child from telling us what they need I would say it most def. doesn't "work". I haven't seen a tantrum that seemed totally the child's problem, to be solved by ignoring, to be honest.
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#58 of 124 Old 12-27-2014, 03:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama View Post
Oh, sorry. I didn't see that. I rarely actively ignore my kids - feels cold but I am conscious of what sorts of energy I put towards certain things. I will say that I had one child that RARELY (like twice!) tantrum-ed and she got the "best of me" in terms of traditional AP. Whether that was temperament or parenting is too hard to tell. My younger does tantrum but I've got to say that what she's telling me is that she's had a crap day (not enough attention, too much TV/unhealthy foods, to much "in a minute", not enough out-door play". If ignoring stops a child from telling us what they need I would say it most def. doesn't "work". I haven't seen a tantrum that seemed totally the child's problem, to be solved by ignoring, to be honest.
One does also need to give kid's attention when they are not tantruming, and out-door play, in addition to ignoring the tantrums.

I don't think a tantrum is typically a child's problem. It's almost always a situation where the parent is unwittingly training the child to tantrum for hugs and holding for instance. The parent is the problem, that's why the parent needs to change.
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#59 of 124 Old 12-28-2014, 05:52 AM
 
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I don't think a tantrum is typically a child's problem. It's almost always a situation where the parent is unwittingly training the child to tantrum for hugs and holding for instance.
I think you have said something similar before and I think I said that this is not my observation. It may well be a regional thing or something (though I have lived on two coasts of the US and in Europe). My observation is that tantrums seem to be largely temperament and development related and unmet needs (poor prevention), and other environmental conditions, moreso than caused by parent training. If you are observing the opposite I understand your passion for the subject.

Though I will say that I don't know too many people who force their kids to tantrum for more holding or hugs. Rather these are given freely on an as-need basis. (ETA: AP [to bring us back to the OP] certainly acknowledges the need for affection but so do many other parenting styles). I would say that the core of the problem you are seeing is that the child is not getting enough affection. It's not that the child has resorted to tantrums to meet her/his needs. The focus of the parent in this case is to figure out how to meet needs - not to figure out how to end the tantrum. That's why I put "works" in quotes. "Works" to stop the tantrum? Or "works" to meet a child's needs. This is where behaviorism falls short, IMO.

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Last edited by IdentityCrisisMama; 12-28-2014 at 06:04 AM.
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#60 of 124 Old 12-28-2014, 09:01 AM
 
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My observation is that tantrums seem to be largely temperament and development related and unmet needs (poor prevention), and other environmental conditions, more so than caused by parent training.
.............

It's not that the child has resorted to tantrums to meet her/his needs. The focus of the parent in this case is to figure out how to meet needs - not to figure out how to end the tantrum. IMO.
Thankyou for putting this so well. Systematically ignoring tantrums as a method of parenting, crying it out to sleep train-similar.
Seeing parents as 'training' children, training dogs, similar.

What they both have in common, is that they are not attachment parenting. Muddie, it sounds like you are an experienced mother after all. Read up on attachment parenting before criticizing it without understanding it, because it takes the thread in directions that arent relevant.

As far as the OPs question is concerned, "mothers are to be seen and nor heard' so to speak. I think that AP advocates for balance as central principle. Of course your needs matter! There are challenges at first to a model that emphasizes the important of needs to everyone in the family, rather than the importance of control. I dont disagree that control is a necessary tool too, but needs come first. Well, because they are needs, and everyone in this planet has the same universal needs.

So your needs matter too.
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