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Old 12-25-2001, 11:34 PM
 
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Thank you Daisy! I have tried to say this in every thread in as gentle way as possible. I finally gave up and stopped reading many of the questions posed once the TCS people began debating every post. We've all asked nicely that these responses stick to the original posters question and that other points of view be heard with out being picked apart, but this only seems to fuel them to start more and more threads. No one is getting Gentle Discipline advice here any more. I am sick of it!
There is web site and support group for TCS why does it need to be discussed and debated endlessly here?

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Old 12-25-2001, 11:38 PM
 
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It's difficult to scroll on by when the posts are so darn long

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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Old 12-25-2001, 11:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by grisletine
we liveout on a dirt road so with her in the sling and me buckled i dont feel too worried..
ummm - you should.

Unless your daughter's life is less important to you than her comfort.... ???

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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Old 12-25-2001, 11:47 PM
 
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I have tried to stay away from the tcs stuff. I started a thread a while ago about how much do you encourage your children. The point of the thread was to ask how much other mommies do it. I tend to not limit my ds at all and encourage him to do things, learn things that most kids his age are not exposed to, because they are assumed to be too young. Anyway, it turned around so that people thought I was trying to ask advice, which I was not, and I was refered to the tcs website. I was trying to do something else. And the tone was kind of like "ask the expert". I got fed up and just gave up. I have seen the same thing happen on other threads. I don't think it is so much that there is anything wrong with tcs, however I find the tone sort of irritating. As someone else said, excuse me, I *do* take my children seriously:

I don't remember any of this talk on the old boards.

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Old 12-25-2001, 11:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by discovermoma
I wanted to add some other thoughts on the carseat issue. We have added additional padding to our toddler seat in the space directly where her back rest. For some reason our carseat didn't have any there.
when you add padding there you change what the carseat and seatbelts were designed to do in the case of a crash - there is a precise amount of padding for compression in an accident... but again - you seem to be more concerned with your child's comfort than safety....

Quote:
We live off a dirt road, it is another 3 1/2 miles to our house after we turn off the highway. We allow our dd to be out of the carseat on this road. Also, don't require the carseat while she is riding around the ranch in the truck.
I really can't think of anything nice to say here or anything that wouldn't be apersonal attack... but I just hope you think about how you are taking your child's life in your hands each time you do that.

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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Old 12-25-2001, 11:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by larsy
But that's just it. Who gets to say what is unsafe and/or irresponsible behavior *for another person*? Aren't individual people capable of evaluating risk for their self, and deciding which risk is worth taking, and which isn't?
but that's just it - you are deciding FOR your child! I bet if your infant COULD talk and reason and understand they would NEVER choose to die in a car accident over not! And yet each parent that interprets their child's cries as"Take me out of the carseat" IS making that choice FOR their child!

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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Old 12-26-2001, 12:05 AM
 
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yes, that's exactly what it means! (good guess!) I shouldn't use family jargon in a public forum, but you know how it is -- sometimes words/phrases have been in use in your family for so long that you forget it's not a real word/phrase!

I don't see tcs'ers taking over, except in that there have been many questions asked of them and threads started about how pushy they are. They're not to blame for those threads -- they didn't start them. People post about problems, other people answer from their own experience, tcs or otherwise. I'm fairly sure that when questioners say "I'm not interested in a tcs answer" that they don't get one. (I haven't actually checked to see that this is true, it's just my impression.)

And I fail to see why ANYONE would be hurt or attacked by a suggestion that they don't find useful. The only people I"ve seen attacked have been the tcs'ers, who have generally responded with respectful disagreement. Please, try to look at it from another point of view:

Say that we're on a mainstream parenting board. I post a question about sleep deprivation, saying that I'm having a terrible time at night. You, who practice AP, suggest that I consider bringing my baby into my bed, citing Sears and others and your own good experience with the family bed. Perhaps you add a link to an AP site in case I'd like more info.

Should I feel hurt or attacked? Should I insult you and demand that you leave the forum? Or should I take your suggestion or not, and leave it at that?

I like having new parenting techniques brought up, even when I don't choose to employ them. It doesn't threaten the way I do things, it stretches my mind and allows me to revisit my old assumptions. Geez, it's not like someone's coming to the Gentle Discipline forum and saying "Spanking is the only way! God wants you to spank! Spankspankspank!" Even I would admit that's out of line.

The only reason tcs seems to have taken over the boards at the moment is that some people, primarily jw, have made it their crusade to belittle and attack the people who suggest it. And I don't understand THAT at all, because I've always found jw to be logical, tactful, and respectful before, even when dealing with touchy subjects. She's the last person I'd expect this kind of venom from -- but maybe I'm just not "hearing" the tone of voice she's intending to project.

I s'pose I'm just leery of ANY censorship, when it's so easy to just scroll on by. People who are ignored go away. People who aren't ignored obviously serve a purpose.

Namaste,

Pallas

edited to add: I do understand being a miffed at the implication that the rest of us don't take our children seriously. I've heard the same complaint from parents who don't like "Attachment Parenting", which implies that they aren't attached to their kids. I take my kid very seriously, even though I don't consider myself to be remotely close to a tcs parent.
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Old 12-26-2001, 12:47 AM
 
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Daisy said:
Quote:
It seems as if every thread turns into a TCS discussion whether the original question had anything to do with it or not.
Did you not notice that the title of this thread just so happens to be "Larsy - TCS?" If you find the TCS conversations so objectionable, why come here in the first place? Who is doing the prostelizing here? Would you mind explaining what you meant by the following statement?

Quote:
You'd think we were talking religion in the Spirituality forum, except proselytizing isn't allowed there. (hmmmm...)
I only heard of TCS a few weeks ago. The concept of dealing with one's children without resorting to coercion fascinates me. I have tried to learn more about it. Do I claim to practice TCS to the letter of the philosophy? No, and I don't know if I necessarily want to. But I DO want to hear about how others manage to apply it. I want to take what works for me and apply it to the best of my ability. If something doesn't feel right to me on an instinctual level, I have enough confidence in my instincts to just leave it. I don't feel it necessary to beat the messenger to death, or to convert them to my way of thinking.

This has turned into an "us" vs. "them" situation, which I find difficult because I don't relate to either side. However, I feel more for the TCS side as they have handled themselves with much more dignity and have shown more even-handedness and respect for the "other side." TCS is not a cult, they are not out there telling people, "You must do what we do, or you are doing it ALL WRONG!" (wouldn't that be coercion?)

I have to go put DD to bed now, it's been a long day. I have a lot more to say, but I'll leave it at that.

Good night, hope everyone enjoyed the holiday.
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Old 12-26-2001, 01:27 AM
 
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I'm really enjoying the tcs perspectives. I'd really love them to continue. Censorship sucks. Diversity, in any case, rocks. Or is at least something that needs to be tolerated. Hopefully, appreciated. Can't folks mentally discard/ignore what doesn't resonate with them? My impression of the tcs posters is that they've been quite respectful.
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Old 12-26-2001, 01:46 AM
 
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I personally would like the tcs posters to modify themselves, in that not every question posted here not be given a tcs answer. If people want that then let them ask for it. I agree with daisy that tcs has railroaded this forum.
I find the basic premise of it to be simple common sense, past that I think it appears arrogant and does not seem to honor nor include the intuitive nature that we as mamas possess innately. All of us.
One cannot parent solely from a method, or a theory. If so, they are in their head, not their heart. That is where the buck stops with me.
I appreciate the time and energy that JW has undertaken to try and refute some of the more extreme tenets of this "philosophy" that seem to leave off common sense and scurries for what and how to "do the right thing".
It disregards one's own gut and sets them following someone else's way that is not their own.
If we need some help fine, I agree we can always use some help.
But it is the arrogance of the presentation that this is the only right way and ultimately belittles the parent that is trying so hard to do better. She will only ever fall short.
I do respect my childs wants and needs and have done since day one. But I'll be damned if I am going to miss a plane because my son doesn't want to wait in line for boarding, or whatever. I am not going to sit there and talk to him (who is still fairly nonverbal) and try to discern when he might be ready to board the plane. Sorry but that concept just takes it a bit too far. It is unrealistic for me to stop my life completely to create a little emperor. Sometimes this kind of negotiation that tcs is recommends is just plain absurd. And puleeeez, what is this ultra PC "hir" thing?
There, I've been holding that in for awhile, just wanted to add my two cents.
Call me coersive or whatever you like.
Whew. I feel much better.
:
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Old 12-26-2001, 02:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wildflower
I'm really enjoying the tcs perspectives. I'd really love them to continue. Censorship sucks. Diversity, in any case, rocks. Or is at least something that needs to be tolerated. Hopefully, appreciated. Can't folks mentally discard/ignore what doesn't resonate with them? My impression of the tcs posters is that they've been quite respectful.
Thanks, wildflower, my sentiments exactly.

I have been reading mostly TCS posts these days in an effort to learn more about it. I have the motto, "Take what you like, and leave the rest." I also don't go into threads which I KNOW I disagree with for the simple reason of arguing with people who are trying to have a supportive discussion in an attempt to learn something. That is not only counter-productive, it is rude, and not in line with the nature of these boards, which were created as a forum whereby people could support each other.
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Old 12-26-2001, 02:10 AM
 
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Cynthia and the moderators are discussing a solution now. A solution is in the works. Hang in there everyone!
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Old 12-26-2001, 02:10 AM
 
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Carseat is a must. No "if" "ands" or "buts" about it!!
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Old 12-26-2001, 02:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daisy
This forum is saturated with TCS talk, even when the original poster didn't have a question related to TCS.... I would like to see discussion of other concepts allowed, without being taken over or buried by TCS discussion. It has become disruptive, and reminds me of a religious argument. I think it's great that some of you who want to debate have started separate threads, instead of talking over existing ones.... Maybe the 'philosophical' discussions should move into the Spirituality forum, or perhaps the Activism forum, because these arguments have morphed to encompass an entire lifestyle, not just gentle discipline.

Flame away.
I haven't visited many threads not specifically talking about TCS these days, but I will check them out to see if your assertion is correct. What if every thread had a strong AP/NP advocate come in with his/her two cents? Would this create such an emotional uproar? Probably not, as most people visiting this forum practice that style of parenting, or at least parts of it.

There have been numerous TCS threads started, and without exception, someone opposed to TCS comes in and picks apart people's opinions, often times in a disrespectful and sometimes downright insulting manner. Please, ladies, before you type those words, ask yourself if you would appreciate being addressed in that manner!!!

Many people have expressed that they feel proponents of TCS come at them with an attitude of superiority. I just don't see it. I think many are turned off by the name, "Taking Children Seriously," because they feel that it implies that they do not take their children seriously. Just because you don't like the name, do you have to come in and attack the theories and the people behind them? Again, suppose I didn't "believe in" attachment parenting, but felt that I WAS, in fact, attached to my child. How would people react if I went on a crusade, needlessly attacking not only AP philosophy, but the people who expressed interest in it? It would not go over well, I assure you, and I would have a moderator on my butt within no time.

I can't believe that in the last part of your post, you insinuate that those who support, are interested in, or want to learn more about TCS should not be included in this forum. And where do you get off saying that these discussions are not about gentle discipline. Does not one's philosophy have bearing on the way one disciplines? If I believe in authoritarianism, will I not discipline in that manner?

I thank those who have persisted in trying to answer my questions, and those of others like me, despite all that is going on. I think they have exhibited an enormous amount of class and self-restraint, as they have not resorted to counter-attack, but have steadfastly, gently, and patiently made an attempt to explain themselves.

Sorry to post a long one here, but I really needed to express myself. Thank you to those of you who chose to read my post in its entirety.

Peace to all, please let us try to coexist in harmony!

Paula Bear
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Old 12-26-2001, 02:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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flminivanmama wrote:

"but that's just it - you are deciding FOR your child! I bet if your infant COULD talk and reason and understand they would NEVER choose to die in a car accident over not!"

Right, agreed, never been any question about that. Children want to live, parents want them to live.

" And yet each parent that interprets their child's cries as"Take me out of the carseat" IS making that choice FOR their child!"

And that is why they stop the car when the baby is in distress.
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Old 12-26-2001, 02:51 AM
 
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This car seat question is going round in circles now.

We've thrashed it to death!

shall we talk about, er, something else?

a

The anti-Ezzo king
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Old 12-26-2001, 03:05 AM
 
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Well said, Alexander. This discussion is getting tiresome. I think everyone is in agreement that carseats are a must. Even larsy (a long time ago) revised her opinion in favor of carseats at all times.

We try what we can, and if all methods to find a CP fail, and we must go, baby goes into carseat. Although they experience coercion, hopefully they live to complain about it, LOL.
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Old 12-26-2001, 04:51 AM
 
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Just Wondering - the link you specified at the beginning of your post is "No Longer Available." Please re-direct us so we can try to figure out what you're talking about. I say that meaning no disrespect - we need that info in order to understand your arguement. Thanks.
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Old 12-26-2001, 05:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Just Wondering
...I think you mean force a baby into a snowsuit. I would never force a snowsuit IN a baby... but if necessary, my baby would be put into a snowsuit, like it or not. Not that I have ever had to do it.....
Just Wondering, is it really necessary or productive to give grammar lessons here? To quote the user conduct rules, "Please exercise cultural...awareness..." Is it not likely that someone from Portugal may not have the same command over the English language as you have demonstrated?

It seems you have no patience for anyone who expresses an interest in TCS. You completely ignored Leonor's point, and instead focused on her misuse of the word "in," which has so many different uses in English as to be very difficult to translate with complete accuracy. You knew what she meant...

The meat of her statement was disregarded - there are other effective ways to keep an 11 month old warm besides forcing him or her INTO a snowsuit.

Sorry, but as someone interested in learning more about TCS, I find your lengthy attacks of people who have come here for the same purpose to be quite tiresome.
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Old 12-26-2001, 05:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by lunarmomma
I personally would like the tcs posters to modify themselves, in that not every question posted here not be given a tcs answer. If people want that then let them ask for it. I agree with daisy that tcs has railroaded this forum.
I find the basic premise of it to be simple common sense, past that I think it appears arrogant and does not seem to honor nor include the intuitive nature that we as mamas possess innately. All of us.
One cannot parent solely from a method, or a theory. If so, they are in their head, not their heart. That is where the buck stops with me.
I appreciate the time and energy that JW has undertaken to try and refute some of the more extreme tenets of this "philosophy" that seem to leave off common sense and scurries for what and how to "do the right thing".
It disregards one's own gut and sets them following someone else's way that is not their own.
If we need some help fine, I agree we can always use some help.
But it is the arrogance of the presentation that this is the only right way and ultimately belittles the parent that is trying so hard to do better. She will only ever fall short.
I do respect my childs wants and needs and have done since day one. But I'll be damned if I am going to miss a plane because my son doesn't want to wait in line for boarding, or whatever. I am not going to sit there and talk to him (who is still fairly nonverbal) and try to discern when he might be ready to board the plane. Sorry but that concept just takes it a bit too far. It is unrealistic for me to stop my life completely to create a little emperor. Sometimes this kind of negotiation that tcs is recommends is just plain absurd. And puleeeez, what is this ultra PC "hir" thing?
There, I've been holding that in for awhile, just wanted to add my two cents.
Call me coersive or whatever you like.
Whew. I feel much better.
:
Right on! I just wanted to thank you for heart-be-in-it "I'll be damned if I'm going to miss a plane" perspective. I don't know anything about TCM (tried to figure it out just now) but I'm generally pretty suspicious of philosophical prescriptions. You are awesome momma.
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Old 12-26-2001, 09:15 AM
 
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Before the boards went down several posters would put 'non tcs response' in the subject line (or something like that).

I think the people on our boards weather tcs or not are respectfull enough to honor such a request.

This isn't a solid solution, but it could help thoes who are looking for a parenting approach that isn't tcs while the administrators work out a gentle plan that works for everyone.

Please feel free to pm or email me any time to discuss ideas or concerns. I care deeply about this forum and would like it to be a comfortable place to share ideas for everyone.

[email protected]
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Old 12-26-2001, 11:20 AM
 
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I know up above I said one should just scroll on by but that was before I read the "TCS for Babies" thread which apparently advocates taking your child's life into your own hands whether they would chose that or not. I couldn't even sleep last night - I had nightmares about parents driving in cars without their kids in carseats...
I just can't in any good conscience listen to parents advocating driving with their kids in a sling no matter how short the distance or how unpaved the road. I don't care how loud your kid is crying. They may be asking for something when they are crying and you may feel it is your job to give them what they ask for but I can guarentee one thing they are NOT asking for is for their parents, who they trust their whole lives with, to take a chance so great with their lives.

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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Old 12-26-2001, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If you were to substitute the subject matter of 'drugs' in Kevin's article, rather than religion, would it still be illogical?

This is one article that grew out of a discussion about the parenting of this individual. It is a rather complex critique of many ant-TCS ideas, but this is a commentary on coercion damage for anyone interested in the concept (this is a thread by that title, right?)

JW, how do you know that I am not part of the USA police force?
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Old 12-26-2001, 11:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by paula_bear

Well said, Alexander. This discussion is getting tiresome. I think everyone is in agreement that carseats are a must. Even larsy (a long time ago) revised her opinion in favor of carseats at all times.
yes I see that - I hadn't read to the end of the thread (too long) so I was responding to each post in turn. I was only able to finish the thread this morning...

Quote:
We try what we can, and if all methods to find a CP fail, and we must go, baby goes into carseat. Although they experience coercion, hopefully they live to complain about it, LOL.
Amen!

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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Old 12-26-2001, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
 
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To go totally meta-discussion here- my last comment in the above post is a joke- just kidding around, ya know? No reason to go into the logic of the knowing or not knowing of the way I spend my time.
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Old 12-26-2001, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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This might be a big part of our misunderstandings here. I am convinced that the truth (right, or the closest we can get to it) of ideas can be known by conjecture and refutation, regardless of the source of the information. Great information can come from the darnedest sources, and poor information can come from expert sources. Each person is responsible for what they do with the information they get, and how they verify it, and critique it, and do further research and discussion and so on.

If a person is to take the information from any particular source as credible based solely upon that person's credentials or age or religious persuasion, they are at risk for missing useful information from sources that they don't credit as worthy, as well as getting bum information from sources that are taken at their word because of their expert status.

This is my experience and opinion, ymmv.

As to the joking thing, JW, the smileys might be your first clue! Working within the limitations of the medium.

As to the logical argument: it sounds like the identical argument against drugs I've been hearing all my life.
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Old 12-26-2001, 01:12 PM
 
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I had the impression that they rethought that decision -- that carseat use was no longer an issue. In any case (straightening Devil's Advocate Beret), is forbidding tcs discussion a reasonable response? Quite frankly, if someone is making life-threatening decisions I don't want them to be silent about it. I want it brought up, so other people can say "That's a life-threatening decision! You should rethink this!"

I think that there's an important distinction to be made here, and that it keeps getting blurred. There's a HUGE leap from saying that tcs is silly, unreasonable, or irritating and saying that it should be a verboten topic, that it may not be mentioned in response to a post. HUGE. Argue with them. Post about them. Ignore them. Dialogue with them. There are so many options that don't involve censorship!

We on this board are awfully quick to decide that something or someone doesn't fit, and to silence them whether Officially or by repeated attacks. Odd, since most of us have experienced the same kind of treatment from mainstreamers at one time or another. Maybe it's human nature, to need a Them so we can be an Us. Human nature or not, it's not terribly attractive.

Namaste,

Pallas
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Old 12-26-2001, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
 
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<musing> I wonder what they did before snowsuits were invented?
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Old 12-26-2001, 01:37 PM
 
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Sounds like a lot of you want to silence opinions you don't agree with. What are you all trying to accomplish in this thread? Do you want all of us to just leave? Well then be explicit and say it! These odd questions that reek of disapproval at answers are sounding pretty passive aggressive to me. Don't want to see so many TCS topics? Start new ones.
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Old 12-26-2001, 01:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pallas
I had the impression that they rethought that decision -- that carseat use was no longer an issue. In any case (straightening Devil's Advocate Beret), is forbidding tcs discussion a reasonable response? Quite frankly, if someone is making life-threatening decisions I don't want them to be silent about it. I want it brought up, so other people can say "That's a life-threatening decision! You should rethink this!"
yes you are right - I hadn't read that whole thread before I responded to this. I had started it but it was too long and I went to bed before I could finish it - then this morning I answered this before I read the end of that one... thankfully the opinion did seem to change so perhaps posting the whole topic was good - if it stopped even one person from taking their child's life into their hands just b/c they thought that's "what the child would want"

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I think that there's an important distinction to be made here, and that it keeps getting blurred. There's a HUGE leap from saying that tcs is silly, unreasonable, or irritating and saying that it should be a verboten topic, that it may not be mentioned in response to a post. HUGE. Argue with them. Post about them. Ignore them. Dialogue with them. There are so many options that don't involve censorship!
I hate cencorship and my normalresponse it "just scroll on by" but....

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We on this board are awfully quick to decide that something or someone doesn't fit, and to silence them whether Officially or by repeated attacks. Odd, since most of us have experienced the same kind of treatment from mainstreamers at one time or another. Maybe it's human nature, to need a Them so we can be an Us. Human nature or not, it's not terribly attractive.
....I hate that everything on this board turns into a fight!! This whole TCS thing is just indicitive of an underlying problem...

I'm Andrea - I have three boys - 12 year old twins & an 11 year old

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