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#481 of 589 Old 12-27-2001, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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erg... I certainly wasn't thinking politics.
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#482 of 589 Old 12-27-2001, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Good idea. I'm still waiting for someone to convince why coercion is necessary and preferable to non-coercion.
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#483 of 589 Old 12-27-2001, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Just Wondering
First I have a problem with this, because it is not a problem I had.

Why? Because up until about three, one of the two children was in the back-pack. After three, there were certain things they knew, which they might have to be reminded of.
Just a question: Did your children never protested being in the back-pack?
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#484 of 589 Old 12-27-2001, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I'll leave you with a quote from Karl Popper "knowledge and the mind-body problem", as I have a problem finding rational points to respond to in your posts, JW, and I am packing to travel for a few days, much to your relief I expect.


"I am afraid I am probably - I do not know - the only philosopher who abhors definitions. I believe that definition is a logical problem of its own, and that an incredible amount of superstition is attached to it."

"People think that a term has no meaning unless you have defined it...it is for most problems quite irrelevent whether a term can be defined or cannot be defined, or how it is defined. All that is necessary is that we make ourselves understood. And definition is certainly not a means of making oneself understood."

"Aristotle has several definitions for 'man'. One is 'man is a featherless biped,' and I am sure 'featherless biped' is not as understandable as 'man'. The other is that 'man is a rational animal'. I am pretty sure that 'rational,' for example, is a much more difficult term than 'man'.
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#485 of 589 Old 12-27-2001, 10:44 PM
 
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larsy said " I am still waiting for someone to convince why coercion is necessary and preferable to non-coercion"
You are not really waiting for that at all. It wouldn't matter what we put up here as to why we think TCS wouldn't work. You have your mind set. It's your way or the highway.
I resent the fact that one of you put up on your website that there was a great discussion going on over here, just to get more people here to support your opinion. ( Geez, the second post of one of your "followers" was to ask how to work the "ignore" list!) You don't contribute to the mothering boards in any other way except to lecture on TCS. You share nothing of yourselves. Hell, we don't even know if you HAVE children!
I have tried to be patient, I have tried to be tolerant, finally I have tried scrolling on by... but guess what??? I can scroll all the way to the bottom of this forum and it's all TCS!!!!
I apologize in advance to the moderators who will feel I have broken the "posting guidelines" You may delete my post if you think it is best. I also apologize to k'smami, who at least has tried to discuss this in a rational manner.

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#486 of 589 Old 12-27-2001, 11:44 PM
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Just Wondering,

The back-pack seems to be a great idea. But what would you suggest to a parent whose child dislikes back-packs?
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#487 of 589 Old 12-27-2001, 11:56 PM
 
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Frankly, I think that the insults are flying back and forth BOTH WAYS and IMO it doesn't matter who did it first. This is much like what you see being played out in school yards, "She hit me!" and then, "Well, she hit me first!" blah blah blah. It's really annoying, the threads are long enough as it is and I hate sifting through the insults to discover an actual point. AAARG!!!

By the way, I know that larsy has kids and I also know where she lives. Why? because I actually paid attention when she posted about it. I'm sure if you were so inclined, you could do a search and find it! And frankly it's irrelevant. If what she's saying makes sense, it shouldn't matter the number of children (or not) she has. And if it doesn't make sense by all means, refute it so that we can all learn.

I may end up deleting this later because even my participating all this off-topic stuff IMO gets in the way of actual learning.

By the way, people call in for reinforcements on discussion boards ALL THE TIME. People on these very boards have done it and I myself have even participated. The fact is that TCS discussion requires a lot of work when you've got to answer the same kinds of questions and explain what the theory itself is (not that I mind this by the way). Thank God that I'm not the only one doing it. I have no qualms about calling Just Wondering for reinforcements when I'm debating vaccines and I'm sure that a lot of you wouldn't either.

Peace
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#488 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 12:10 AM
 
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Are you saying that TCS isn't about non-coercion? Perhaps in light of what you may have read about TCS in other threads you would believe that TCSers think TCS has some sort of monopoly on non-coercion but I believe that in this thread Larsy has not excluded any non-coercive parents who don't label themselves TCS.
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#489 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 12:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by larsy
Believe me, Jay Dubyah, it is just as frustrating for others, the way you deliberately miss the point
*My* point was could we refrain from painting happy faces when we are in the middle of being snide and disrespectful? It's just silly. It also guarantees that any argument we are trying to put forth won't be taken seriously.
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#490 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 12:29 AM
 
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Dear k'smami.
I did apologize in advance and I am sorry again if you took offense at a post that was not directed at you. I lost my cool after several attempts at trying to come to some common ground on this. As you said, all the endless debating is absolutely exausting!
I am still angry over this and any other attempts to make ammends right now would sound false. I did want to acknowledge your post and tell you I understand your frustration as I am feeling it too.


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#491 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 12:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by peggy
I resent the fact that one of you put up on your website that there was a great discussion going on over here, just to get more people here to support your opinion. ( Geez, the second post of one of your "followers" was to ask how to work the "ignore" list!)

Will someone please tell me when this happened and what the subject was so that I may look it up in the archives? I subscribe to the TCS list and have not seen anyone mention these boards.

Quote:
You don't contribute to the mothering boards in any other way except to lecture on TCS. You share nothing of yourselves. Hell, we don't even know if you HAVE children!

That is a matter of opinion. I believe that many of the TCS posts have been valuable contributions to the mothering boards. I have been able to take what works for me and leave the rest. Is that so difficult? TCS posters share a lot, they just don't do it in the way in which we are accustomed. They believe that they do not have the right to share details about their children's (or anyone else's children) lives because it would violate the child/rens privacy. But they give some really good hypothetical examples, if you can try looking for solution in a different way.

Quote:
I have tried to be patient, I have tried to be tolerant, finally I have tried scrolling on by... but guess what??? I can scroll all the way to the bottom of this forum and it's all TCS!!!!

There are 74 threads listed in this forum for the past 30 days. 20 or so of those specifically deal w/ TCS (which one can easily avoid reading if one finds them offensive, annoying, verbose, etc.) Of those, nearly half were initiated by anti-TCS posters, or TCS antagonists. According to the user conduct rules, we are not to "post messages intended to bait others into entering an unproductive argument; 'flaming' is not acceptable...Do not attack other members individually." Many of these threads are in direct violation of the user conduct rules, and no one is addressing that.

The reason we are seeing mostly TCS posts at the top of the list is because these are the ones to which people are responding. If you would like to see other topics discussed, either start new threads or respond to some of the older ones which have nothing to do w/ TCS.

Larsy stared the thread "Taking Children Seriously" at the request of some people, for reasons I do not know. (Meaning, I don't know if it was people who wanted her to teach them more about it, or people who wanted her to "keep her nose out of their threads...") Since that time, she has not gone into other threads talking lots of TCS. She has addressed people's questions and given advice when people put it out there, but if one looks through all recent posts (which I am in the process of doing, BTW - report to follow ASAP) one will find that the TCS debate is confined to the many threads which clearly state they are TCS. So I really think that people are complaining about something that simply isn't happening any more. Maybe it did in the past, but it looks like it worked itself out, so can we please move on?
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#492 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 12:44 AM
 
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I asked the question because on many previous threads Larsy has refered to a "truth" that she is striving for in her TCS parenting. I don't know how asking her to explain this truth goes anymore astray from gentle discipline than any of the other threads. I was simply asking for some clarification to her prior posts, which were indeed posted on this forum.
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#493 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 12:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by peggy
As you said, all the endless debating is absolutely exausting!
May I suggest another way of viewing the aforementioned discussions? I'm finding them INVIGORATING! Heeheehee

Oh sure some of the ideas expressed have been exasperating such as allowing children to block store aisles (the whole it's not my problem, it's THEIR problem thing) and the original TCS solution to carseat woes which I believe they have since recanted.

Even so, I must admit I am finding the discussions delicious. I always enjoy knowing how other people think and why they do the things they do.
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#494 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 01:00 AM
 
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Doesn't this thread show that we are all more alike in our parenting styles than we would appear to be to anyone reading this board? I agreed with nearly every explantation that Larsy gave, with the exception of the outlet one, but I have already explained our deep respect for electricity (what with my dh being an engineer for the power company.) Those of us that don't "practice" TCS aren't necessarily pro-coersion, we just may be a little more old fashioned (not much, mind you) believing that children owe adults a bit of respect, yes, simply because we are adults. So much of how I deal with my children everyday would qualify as TCS, though I don't subscribe to their List, and don't believe in their "theory." I believe that I am a good parent. If what I would do in a given situation is the same as what you (not specific) would do, that makes you a good parent, too. Not because you practice the TCS theory, but because you love your children and you are doing what you believe is the best for them. That is what makes us good parents.
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#495 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 01:20 AM
 
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I personally feel that your first post summed it all up. I only wish I had wrote it. Good job!
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#496 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 01:31 AM
 
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paula-bear. the reference I made to some one posting on the TCS website to come to mothering was made here by a new member who posted under the Questions and Suggestions forum in a thread called "A Place for TCS"

I have to say that I find it incredible that I am being "flamed" because of one post where I later admitted I lost my cool. No one is taking into consideration all the many times I have posted on this subject in a very respectful manner and have gotten no where.

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#497 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 01:46 AM
 
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First of all, I voted for GWB, and trust me, I am not sorry that I did. I guess I may be the only Republican on these boards (no, that's not true. JW is probably not voting Republican from New Zealand -- although I could be wrong.)

Back to sitting in the aisle. It was mentioned countless times about how asking a child to move or moving a child out of the aisle violates the childs needs. NEEDS???? Aren't we confusing wants and needs here? Food, clothing, shelter, love....these are needs. Playing with a toy in the middle of the aisle and blocking traffic? Clearly not a need. There would be no life threatening consequence if the child were denied blocking the aisle. Denying food, clothing, shelter, or love would definitely be life threatening because these would be denying a true need. No child NEEDS to block the aisle to play with a toy. I guess I just WANT to get my priorities straight, or is that I NEED to get my priorities straight?
I'm just looking at the bigger worldly picture here.
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#498 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 02:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom
It was mentioned countless times about how asking a child to move or moving a child out of the aisle violates the childs needs. NEEDS???? Aren't we confusing wants and needs here
That's a really good distinction there, Beth. I'm curious to hear the response myself. I have a feeling though that TCS translates many "wants" into "needs".
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#499 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 02:26 AM
 
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Dear Peggy,

I did not take offense at your post. I am disagreeing with the tactics of people on both sides to get their point across when they are using personal attacks. I have been feeling this way since WAY BEFORE your post, but have refrained from mentioning it so vehmently in the past.

I did feel I had to address some of the things you mentioned because I disagreed with them, not because they offended me.

Just Wondering,

I think I do understand where you're coming from, I just disagree with the way you are going about it. You have probably kept silent for so long in the hopes that people will see their own errors and when they didn't, you spoke up. (Much like I felt when I posted.)

I see how vaccines are different. I just think its unfair to condemn people for what seems to be a typical way of using the internet, after having seen so many examples of it and not saying anything.

All right, that was the last of it. No more meta-discussions for me. I am open however to discussing this privately or perhaps another thread that covers these discussions about the discussion, but not on threads who's expressed purpose is to discuss something else.
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#500 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 02:35 AM
 
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I think that I am addicted. I can't seem to log off. What has happened to me? I seem to spend more and more time at my computer every day.

Talk about guilt. Last night my dh came to tell me that my ds wanted me to come up and say good night (it was 9:00) but not yet because he was having a piece of cheese in bed and he wanted it to be a secret. So I was suppossed to wait a few minutes and go up. Time flies when you are typing away. I though about ten minutes had passed, so imagine my surprize when my dh came down at 10:00 and told me that my ds was still sitting in bed waiting for me. I felt awful . I can't believe that I let this message board come before my son. I have truly gone off the deep end. Do they have a 12 step program for message board addicts? I must have better things to do with my time. Here I go, I'm going to log off now.....This time I really mean it.........
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#501 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 03:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by peggy
I have to say that I find it incredible that I am being "flamed" because of one post where I later admitted I lost my cool. No one is taking into consideration all the many times I have posted on this subject in a very respectful manner and have gotten no where.
Peggy, I did not intend to flame you. I was only responding to your post with my opinion. I apologize if that in any way offended you, but it was not my intention to do so. I am only expressing the way I see things.

I am going to start a new thread called 'TCS - Statistics.' Please everyone, take a look at it. I went through all the threads in Gentle Discipline and compiled some statistics. I hope we can put an end to this bickering and find a COMMON PREFERENCE with regards to TCS on these boards!
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#502 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 03:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom
Back to sitting in the aisle. It was mentioned countless times about how asking a child to move or moving a child out of the aisle violates the childs needs.
No one said that asking a child to move violated him or her in any way. But being ordered or physically made to move does not help the child to grow - it does nothing to make him more considerate of the other person, either, IMO. I still say, how would an adult feel if he or she was browsing in an aisle and someone forced them out of someone else's way? They would probably have a negative reaction! Why is it that we have such a hard time giving children the same rights we adults take for granted? Is it that hard to help the child to see for him or herself why it would be a good idea to take the toy somewhere else so as not to block traffic in the aisle?

Just Wondering gave a wonderful example earlier about how she prepared herself and her boys for this situation. Maybe her response wasn't TCS, but I didn't think it was coercive. She said herself that her boys responded to her reasoning and she never had to physically move them out of anyone's way. Many other practical solutions have been given. Why is this concept so hard to swallow?
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#503 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 04:52 AM
 
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Hello everyone, I refrained from posting most of last night so I could compile some statistics. I consider myself a neutral observer in the whole TCS controversy, but it bothers me a bit when I see how people are reacting here. And I don't know exactly what they're reacting to, or why. The complaint I'm hearing is that TCS-followers come in and give a TCS response to every thread on the board. Then it starts a whole big TCS debate and the original poster's question gets buried in the quagmire (sp?).

Now, let me qualify by saying I only joined these discussions on 23-Nov-01, so I don't know what all transpired in the past. But I took the time to review each and every one of the threads currently on this Gentle Discipline forum and this is what I found:

There are 22 TCS threads. Most of these are active, which means that people are responding to them, whether that be to criticise or not...

Of the threads specifically discussing TCS, 11 of them (half) were initiated by people who are refuting TCS theory.

As of the wee hours of this morning, there were 53 other threads.

I went into each of those 53 threads to note two things:
1. Was there a TCS response?
2. Did this response spark a debate, or was it accepted?
(Aside: Most of the threads that contained a TCS response were from before the TCS threads were started. I guess one of two things happened - TCS posters were so busy debating, they didn't have time to check out any other posts, or they decided to stick to the TCS posts.)

This is what I found:
1. In 39 threads, there was no TCS response. In 14 threads, there was a TCS response, although this does not mean that TCS was mentioned by name.
2. Of the 14 threads that ilicited a TCS response, only one of them turned into a heated debate. In a few of the threads, there was continued discussion. In a few of the threads, the person who asked the original question thanked all posters for their input. I did not see where people resented having a TCS response. I did not see anyone trying to push any ideas.

The reason I took the time to do this is because I feel that this whole issue is blown way out of proportion. Maybe I didn't go back far enough. I do remember reading TCS responses before larsy started the "Taking Children Seriously" thread, but I couldn't understand all the hurt feelings. I still don't.

There is a very wise saying - "Take what you like and leave the rest." I think one can apply that to anything one reads on these forums. And, if TCS is so objectionable, stay out of the TCS threads, where most of the discussion is going on these days! As far as TCS taking over the Gentle Discipline forum, that is not true, from the analysis I have done here.

Peace to all - I hope we can find a common preference here!

Paula Bear
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#504 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 04:56 AM
 
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Please see my post, 'TCS - Statistics.'
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#505 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 04:58 AM
 
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Please see my post, 'TCS - Statistics.'
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#506 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 05:07 AM
 
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Thanks Paula Bear.

I was thinking about doing the same thing, but couldn't find the time to do it.

Your analysis confirms my instincts, and sadly proves that intolerance often speaks with too loud a voice and without enough reason.

Can't we all learn from each other? And accept individuals' choices regarding the tone and degree of detachment with which they choose to post?
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#507 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 09:25 AM
 
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After "sleeping on it" I feel very sorry for stooping to "blasting" larsy. That was stupid and immature and no way to carry on a debate or discussion. Larsy, I apologize.
I hope some common ground can be reached here soon. This has gone on way too long and is frustrating for people on both "sides".
I am sorry to have "hi-jacked" this thread once again, but I wanted to publically apologize.


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#508 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 09:54 AM
 
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JW is right. Alot of my frustrations stem from the idea that "Oh no, it's happening again" left over from the old boards. So it may seem that some of us are over reacting. Be it wrong or right some of us may be working from that perspective.

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#509 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 11:40 AM
 
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Paula Bear, You're My Hero!

You confirmed what I only suspected.

And once again, jw, *raises hand tiredly* I'm not new. I've been around for a loooooooong time, and seen these discussions come and go, and I don't agree with you or your methods.

I don't think tcs has ever been oppressively present here. Oh, interest waxes and wanes, as it does in other topics. So what.

I am finding it increasingly irritating that you insist on speaking for these huge and silent groups of people. You call yourself an advocate, and say that you're just speaking up for all these poor, wounded people who are ... what? Too weak to speak for themselves? Too stupid to argue as "effectively" as you do? Too frightened of tcs'ers coming to their door disguised as Girl Scouts?

Bleah. If I WERE one of the people who was annoyed by tcs, I'd be insulted that you've taken this patriarchal attitude. As it is, I'm pissed off that you continually imply that you're speaking for me (as one of the old school, as a non-tcs'er) when you most certainly don't.

So I'll just keep raising my hand, to remind the mods that you don't speak for everyone, and you don't speak for me.

Did I mention that Paula Bear is my hero?
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#510 of 589 Old 12-28-2001, 11:41 AM
 
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Thanks, just wondering and Peggy, for attempting to explain the source of your frustration, but I still don't really understand where you are coming from. I'll check in with you a few months from now and let you know what I think then...

I would never stop reading anyone's posts just because they posted something objectionable to me in the past. I never know who is going to offer the exact information I need at any given moment. I would just like to see people treating others with respect and not putting out loaded questions, so to speak, drawing others into a debate which one knows has no productive outcome...Or maybe I am wrong, maybe some good will come out of all of this bickering...
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