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Old 12-30-2001, 04:16 PM
 
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Please tell me you are not serious, a TV, computer, internet etc. are needs? Will you die without them? I don't think so. I think that this is why there are so many screwed up people now. We have our priorities totally out of whack. For thousands of years before us they managed to live without the luxuries we have today. They had what they truly needed to survive. Unfortunately, that isn't true because many people died due to starvation and exposure etc. That still happens today in our own filthy rich country. The next time you buy a toy you or your child "needs" think of the child who is out on our streets dying at that very moment because he has nothing to eat. When did we become such a selfish, me first society? I am doing my best to raise my children to change that, not to perpetuate it by catering to their superflous wants as if they were bonafide needs.
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Old 12-30-2001, 08:27 PM
 
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I guess if we want to get literal we can establish a need as something that is necessary for survival but I typically express my needs differently and I think a lot of people do also.

For example, I NEED to wash my hair every 3 days or it will be dirty and dull-looking. Will I die if this doesn't happen? No. Many parents say thier children NEED to bathe everyday. Will they die if it doesn't happen? No.

In my home we NEED the computer and the internet. I need it for research and to connect with other mother's who think like me. Dh needs it for freelance projects. Will we die without it? No. And I'm sure if compelled we could even do these things without it but we have made it a priority, a need if you will, to keep it running and available.

We may say that we NEED vegetables in order to grow. But I managed my whole childhood without them (due to trauma from extreme coercion). And grew to an above average hieght of 5'8". I had regular cholesterol and a low bp (80/40) and only got sick once a year. Now I can say that I need vegetables in my life but I also know that I can survive without them.
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Old 12-30-2001, 09:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Icicle Spider
Iguanavere wrote:
If you get caught up in picking apart any suggestion, you totally miss the point. You will be successfull in finding a scenario where the suggestion falls apart. But that doesn't invalidate those scenarios where the suggestion does work.

Pat
I have to say that I agree with this statement. I have found this to be very true. In fact, it is what had kept me from actually actively applying TCS for many months after I had already agreed to the theory.

I believe I've said this elsewhere around here. There is no to-do-list with regard to finding common preferences. The point is to just find them. With some families the same solution would work, with other families another solution would work instead. The good thing about asking others what they would do in a certain situation is that we can have access to another pool of ideas and creativity.

However, I do also see the benefit of others rejecting a suggestion. When this happens there is also the opportunity to keep thinking and find an even better one. For example someone's rejection of my suggestion to show a child how to use electrical cords and outlets safely led me to think of another suggestion which a lot of parents may feel more comfortable with (giving a child an unplugged surge protecter that they can plug things into to show them how to use electrical cords safely). This is also a good way of looking at things with our children. A child's rejection of a suggestion can also present the opportunity to keep thinking and find an even better common preference.
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Old 12-30-2001, 09:30 PM
 
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I limit my intake of refined sugars. I find that if I don't do this I invite a lot of health problems into my body (for instance, the presence of too much yeast ). This is a self-imposed limit because I'd rather not eat sugar than deal with the yeast. I do not believe that this is self-coercion because I prefer this to having the yeast issue.

In my opinion, self-coercion is doing something I don't want to do. For instance, there are some nights when I come home from work that I feel too tired to cook dinner. In my opinon, it is self coercsion to cook in this case. Especially if Dh can make dinner or there is something quick and easy that I can make without actually cooking like peanut butter on whole wheat bread with fruit.
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Old 12-30-2001, 09:58 PM
 
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Dear k'smami.
I respect your opinion very much. You have stated yourself that we should move on from this bickering, that things have been done on both sides that were wrong.
Given that I find it interesting that you are going back and answering all the TCs threads.
I gathered , perhaps wrongly, that everyone wanted to move on.

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Old 12-30-2001, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom
The next time you buy a toy you or your child "needs" think of the child who is out on our streets dying at that very moment because he has nothing to eat.
Are you thinking in the child dying in the streets this very moment? Why haven't you sold your computer yet to feed her? You don't need the computer! Do you think about it each time you buy an item for yourself?

The child in the streets is not my responsibility, it might make me sad but I didn't put her in the world, her parents are guilty of her misery, not me or my children. It would be wrong to make my child unhappy by not buying her the wanted toy and use the money instead to feed someone else's child.

Sarah Lawrence has a great article about this. It made me aware of this issue:

http://www.sarahlawrence.org/Article...ngEqually.html
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Old 12-31-2001, 12:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom
By the way, you criticized my handling of my child in that situation, but you didn't respond to my actual question which was wants vs. needs. Any thoughts here?
This is where you're mistaken, Beth. I did not criticize your handling of your child. This is a thread about TCS and I simply gave examples of how this situation could be handled without coercing the child. While pointing out to the child that someone needs to get by, and leading him/her by the hand is a very gentle way of handling the situation, it is still coercive, IMO, because the child had no choice in the matter.
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When you are out and about and you need to get by someone don't you simply say "excuse me" to make the person aware of your presence. Most people are not rude, they are simply unaware that they are in someone elses way.

My point was that, if you nicely ask someone to let you pass by saying excuse me without thinking them rude for blocking your way in the first place, why wouldn't you allow your child the same consideration? Why not wait for the person to say, "Excuse me." and then point out to your child that he or she needs to make way for this person to get by? It only takes seconds to allow the child to make this decision, based on the facts (person needs to pass, I am blocking the way, I can easily take this item and explore it over there in the corner, I guess the best thing to do would be to move...) I simply don't understand why this is so difficult. Or, as Just Wondering stated earlier, prepare for this situation in advance by explaining that if child wants to explore items in the middle of the aisle, he or she may have to move to let people pass.

I also must say that it will be easier for the child to follow this reasoning if he or she knows that the parent is trying to help him or her get what he or she wants. Meaning that, if you have been coercing your child up to this point (however gently, mind you, I'm not accusing anyone here of parenting in a "wrong" sort of way), he or she may not trust you yet, and these rational tactics may not work in the beginning.

Back to the wants vs. needs issue, does your child "need" you to treat him or her gently and parent him or her in the AP style (or whichever way you choose to parent)? Technically, no, he or she would most likely survive even if you beat him senseless in response to the above scenario. But we are all trying to do more than meet the minimum requirements for survival. TCS simply states that no coercion is ever justifiable. Does this mean that TCS parents never coerce their children? Heck, no! But they continue to make an honest attempt in every situation to find a common preference and to respect their child's "need" for autonomy.

If you don't agree with TCS, that is fine. Parent in the way that feels best and right to you. But I don't think any example you can think of will get a TCS parent to agree that coercion was indeed necessary or preferable...
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Old 12-31-2001, 01:16 AM
 
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PB,

First of all, I find that people seldom address my children directly. It often makes young children uncomfortable and I have found that people will often say "excuse me" to me when my child is blocking the aisle rather than directly address my child. This then places the ball directly in my court and I handle the situation as stated before. Just as I may never come up with a situation you can't find a way to TCS, you will never convince me that your way is correct. In fact, all this TCS discussion is driving me in the opposite direction.

Leonor,

Yes, I do feel guilty that I have so much and there are so many who have so little. That is why my family donates to the food bank, the free lunch program, buys Christmas presents for children who wouldn't otherwise receive one. We give to our church so they may help the many who need it. Our children also donate a portion of any money they might receive for b-days, Christmas, etc to charity. I really hope that my children are happy in their life, but in order to know happiness you must first know suffering. Otherwise, how do you know you are happy? I want my children to contribute to the world and to make a difference in the lives of people who have so much less than we do. We sacrifice a lot so that I am able to stay home with our children, but I realize that we are still very lucky to have everything that we have and I thank God every day for our good fortune. Just because I don't know a starving child personally doesn't relinquish me of all responsibility to help them. But again, I feel like I'm the only Christian on the board (by the way, my children's names are Christian and Jonah)
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Old 12-31-2001, 03:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by peggy
Dear k'smami.
I respect your opinion very much. You have stated yourself that we should move on from this bickering, that things have been done on both sides that were wrong.
Given that I find it interesting that you are going back and answering all the TCs threads.
I gathered , perhaps wrongly, that everyone wanted to move on.

peggy
Yes Peggy, I did say that I wanted to move past the bickering (i.e. personal attacks). I don't think I ever said that I wanted to end the discussions about TCS. Many people have said that thier problem is not that there is TCS discussion on this board but the way in which TCS people are discussing it. I didn't realize that in asking people to move on, people in fact were asking that the TCS discussion stop. If that is the case, I disagree. Asking that, when people are being respectful is in effect silencing opinions unnecessarily IMO.
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Old 12-31-2001, 04:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Just Wondering
Dear Ksmami,
Does an unplugged surge protector teach them that power sockets are dangerous? Or will they assume that every plug socket in the house is as safe as the "toy" you have provided them with? And go around treating the plug like the ones in their dead one, not realising that it is not a reflection of reality?
The idea for using the surge protector was to teach the child to use sockets safely. I believe a parent can do this by as showing the child how to plug things in and what not to put into the socket. I'm sorry that I didn't make this clear, but under no circumstances do I suggest that a parent treat this surge protector as a toy and leave the child to hir own devices with it. Of course a parent should treat the dead plug as reverently as a live one as an example to the child in how to use it. The suggestion of the surge protector was to allay the parents fear of electrocution when teaching the child how to use plugs, not to allow the child to "play" with it as if it were some stuffed animal or what have you. A parent should treat this surge protector as any other to prevent the possibility that the child could assume that they could use it in a way that was not intended. Thank you for mentioning this Just Wondering, you have allowed the suggestion to become more concrete.
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Old 12-31-2001, 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by Just Wondering

1) That Sarah could consider her "theory" as the ultimate authority on poverty and its causes. But then, that exemplifies the attitudes of those who consider TCS the be-all and end-all of all humanistic issues. Since when has she been the ultimate economic, social and historial intellectual of the world?
I don't see where she writes she is the ultimate authority of humanistic issues or anything else, could you please quote? Being a libertarian, I find it weird she would say she was an authority of anything.

Quote:
2) That you were unaware of the issue before reading this article.
I wasn't unaware of the issue of poverty, I live in a 3rd world country, remember? The issue I was talking about, and I apologize for not being clear, is the wants vs. needs, the guilt of wanting and having possessions (I was talking about that in my post). It never crossed my mind that being selfish could be right.

Quote:
3) That in light of No 2, you seemingly looked no further for other explanations.
I know others explanations for poverty, but that was not what I was talking about.

Quote:
4) that seemingly knowing nothing about the issue, you then considered her article "great".

In order to assess the validity of any one article, I have always done extensive spadework to find out the realities of the world in total. Not one person's views. I guess, as a journalist, I am expected to.....
To find out the validity of one article and find it great one has to read how many on the same issue exactly?
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Old 12-31-2001, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom
I want my children to contribute to the world and to make a difference in the lives of people who have so much less than we do.
Of course you should live the way you think is right and talk about your beliefs with your children, but you shouldn't want that they live in a certain way. It's their lives, it's them who should decide how to spend their wealth.

I also want that Bill Gates shares my fortune with me, but as I have no power over him, I'm out of luck. Unfortunately parents have a lot of power over their children.
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Old 12-31-2001, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Just Wondering

I never said she did. I asked the question

Since when has she been the ultimate economic, social and historial intellectual of the world?
This seems to be one of those kind of questions whose porpuse is to make what one says or writes invalid. Does one has to be the ultimate economic, social and historial intellectual of the world to write valid articles?

This makes me remember parents who ask their children "Since when are you a teacher/ doctor/ adult/ person?" to shut them up

Quote:
In my case, on any given topic, I usually research until the river runs dry from publically accessible sources.
You could have researched for your whole life and still not find the truth on the issue.
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Old 12-31-2001, 10:51 AM
 
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Dear k'smami,
I didn't want to silence anyone. I just thought refocusing on something else for a bit would calm things down. I was wrong.
The discussions continue, bickering and all.


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Old 12-31-2001, 08:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leonor


Of course you should live the way you think is right and talk about your beliefs with your children, but you shouldn't want that they live in a certain way. It's their lives, it's them who should decide how to spend their wealth.
That's a ludicrous statement IMO. Of course I want certain things for my children. Don't we all want certain things for our children? You simply want different things for your children than do I. TCS parents still want things for their children, their goals and the methods of achievement are simply different. My children get to decide how to donate their money and to what charity, and they (at least the oldest one) are excited that because of them someone will have a better day.
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Old 12-31-2001, 08:28 PM
 
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I've finally figured out how you all quote each other!!!!!!
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Old 12-31-2001, 09:25 PM
 
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But you wouldn't do that to us, would you???

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Old 01-01-2002, 12:11 AM
 
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Beth - I love your ideas on charity! Would you mind starting a post on that? I think we could have a fabulous discussion. Maybe in Parenting Issues? or TAO? Or if you think it fits here - go for it! Just let me know where you post it so I can contribute.

Sorry to but it here - I just thought it was a great idea!
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Old 01-01-2002, 01:16 AM
 
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Leonor


Of course you should live the way you think is right and talk about your beliefs with your children, but you shouldn't want that they live in a certain way. It's their lives, it's them who should decide how to spend their wealth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom


That's a ludicrous statement IMO. Of course I want certain things for my children. Don't we all want certain things for our children? You simply want different things for your children than do I. TCS parents still want things for their children, their goals and the methods of achievement are simply different.

Some of the TCS philosophy is about helping children live in the ways that *they* want, even when its not ways that the parent would choose, its one of the things I like about that philosophy - of parents helping their kids do things that are important to the kids, even when its not a choice the parent would make.

I've known so many people (mostly teens & adults, but kids with other issues too) whose parents couldn't maintain support of them because the child practiced a different religion, came out as gay, disclosed abuse by a family member or friend, had strong differing political views, chose to give up all their possessions & live off the land, or chose things like being really into making money.

I think wanting certain things for your child, and wanting to help your child live the way your child wants to live can be more different than a different method of achievement. The way I read it (I apologize if this is a mistaken analogy) is that jcbmom was saying thing like 'one parent wants their child to be Baptist, another wants their child to be Buddist' and leonor was saying something like 'a parent wants their child to practice whatever religion (or none) that the child chooses'

It seems like very different kinds of things to me. I think a parent who is trying to raise a child to be Buddist and a parent who is trying to raise a child to be Baptist have more in common with each other, than either do to a parent who is Buddist or Baptist herself, and shares her religion with her child, but is trying to raise her child to experience religion in whatever form makes sense to the child.


Did that make sense?
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