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#181 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 12:40 AM
 
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After reading all the TCS posts I feel like I am at an impasse. I have made it clear that although I agree with some of the fundementals, I am not a whole hearted subscriber. I just read the post about the six year old and the toys left on the floor and here is my problem. I feel like it is a no win situation. If I leave the toy on the floor I have coersed my child with my will in my desire to have her learn natural consequences since if my guest had left something on the floor I would have picked it up. Yet if I pick up the toy for my child, with or without an explanation, I am again forcing my will on my child (or at least my child's toy ) since my child made the decision to leave it there in the first place. It often seems like a no win situation where the battle of the wills is concerned.

All in all, I think that we are all more alike than we are different and if we visited each others homes it would often be difficult to determine who "practices" TSC and who doesn't. We all have different personalities, different children and different priorities in our lives that shape what we want for our children and and how we choose to raise them. We have different thresholds for frustration as do our children and we must tailor our discipline and our lifestyle to our individual needs and to our children and families needs. I personally tend to read, for example, Heavenlys posts and see myself in them I can relate to her more than I can Larsy. But in the end, we all take our children seriously or we wouldn't be posting here. Anyone else with me?
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#182 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 01:05 AM
 
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quoted from k'smama:


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I don't think these children are a good example about how children think so cases like these should not be used against the majority of children to say that they aren't rational (not implying that you're saying this, I'm just throwing it out there). This is a very interesting case, I don't know how one would handle these behaviors using TCS. I'll think about it though.
To clarify, no, I didn't mean to imply with my example that the majority of children aren't rational. I'm simply trying to decide if TCS would be a good fit with the children I work with.

Regarding natural consequences... in my example the child was given the information that the toy might be damaged by the fall from the window. So then it is still the parent's responsiblity to prevent the toy from being damaged? Using the honored guest analogy, if my guest were eating her sandwich on my couch, I might point out to her that if she chooses to eat there, my dog might snatch the sandwich from her. If she chooses to continue eating the sandwich on my couch, and my dog does snatch it from her, I don't think I'd feel obligated to replace the sandwich for her, even if she was upset about it.

I guess I should check out the discussions about natural consequences on the TCS site that you mention
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#183 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 01:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom
After reading all the TCS posts I feel like I am at an impasse. I have made it clear that although I agree with some of the fundementals, I am not a whole hearted subscriber. I just read the post about the six year old and the toys left on the floor and here is my problem. I feel like it is a no win situation. If I leave the toy on the floor I have coersed my child with my will in my desire to have her learn natural consequences since if my guest had left something on the floor I would have picked it up. Yet if I pick up the toy for my child, with or without an explanation, I am again forcing my will on my child (or at least my child's toy ) since my child made the decision to leave it there in the first place. It often seems like a no win situation where the battle of the wills is concerned.
If a parent could ask the child if hir intended to leave the toy on the floor or if the child forgot, that would be one way for the parent to make sure that the parent isn't imposing hir will on the child. Parent could share hir theories about why precious toys should not be left on the floor and what could happen if they were left there if the child says that the toy was left there on purpose.

I would like those who don't follow TCS to define what taking children seriously means to them since I see that a lot of what is being argued with is terminology.
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#184 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 01:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by bigcats
Regarding natural consequences... in my example the child was given the information that the toy might be damaged by the fall from the window. So then it is still the parent's responsiblity to prevent the toy from being damaged? Using the honored guest analogy, if my guest were eating her sandwich on my couch, I might point out to her that if she chooses to eat there, my dog might snatch the sandwich from her. If she chooses to continue eating the sandwich on my couch, and my dog does snatch it from her, I don't think I'd feel obligated to replace the sandwich for her, even if she was upset about it.



If the parent has told the child what would happen if the toy goes out the window and the child wants to do this anyway, then I would try to see what the child wants to learn from doing this. If the child is trying to learn about gravity or what happens to things when they fall from a high place then perhaps the parent could suggest that a different, less important toy could be used instead or even a piece of fruit. Maybe the child doesn't like the toy at all and wants to get rid of it in this manner, then no problem, no need to replace it once it goes out the window. Even here a parent could suggest to the child that if hir doesn't like it then it could be donated to someone who would like it and then that rotten apple can go flying out the window instead. Even if the child still insists on throwing the particular toy out the window I would probably replace it. Why? Maybe the child now regrets this decision and feels bad for having done it. (I know I've done things that I've regretted later) I think the child has learned what hir needed to learn from the experience and will probably not do this again in the future. So not replacing the toy would IMO be a form of punishment and as such coercive. And in the end it's just a toy.
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#185 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 02:27 AM
 
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To imply that I don't take my children seriously if I don't practice the TCS theory is extremely insulting. You are doing what you feel is best for your family and child. When you can provide unargueable proof that your way is the right way to raise a child I will gladly adopt your theory, but at this point that is all it is, a theory - a method. As an educator I have had too many child/developmental psychology classes to believe that giving in to my child's will is always the right thing to do, nor do I need to always negotiate on small issues, ex. wearing a coat. Many things that our children do are due to their age and developmental phase. I'm not going into specifics.

I take my children very seriously. I take their health seriously. I work with their pediatrician to ensure that they are as healthy as can be. I take their needs seriously and provide for their needs and much of the time for their wants too. I take their feelings seriously, and apologize when I have hurt them. I work with them to find solutions when our wants/needs don't mesh, but as the mother there are things that must be done, and they must come along for the ride (wearing a coat.) Contrary to what you believe, I think that it is healthy for my children to learn that sometimes we need to concede to the wants and needs of others. A child who learns to "give in" and put others first becomes a child who learns that other's needs are as important, and at times more important than his own. I think that it is important that my child knows that when I tell him to put on his coat it is because I love him and I don't want him to be cold. I want him to know that he can count on me to protect him. I think that small children who make every decision in their lives and are allowed to negotiate everything will fail to see their parents as someone they can count on for all the answers. I think when the questions get bigger (drugs, sex) these children are going to look for someone to tell them that drugs are wrong and they should wait to have sex, but are instead going to be told to be careful. I had friends who were allowed to negotiate everything with their parents, and they were often miserable. One friend once told me that she wished her parents would give her a curfew and rules, so that she would know that they loved her.

I strive to make my son's confident and independent people, but not at the expense of others. I take this very seriously. I want my sons to know that I love them every minute of the day, even when they are mad at me because I enforced the rules of the house. Rules that have been made in the best interest of the whole family. I listen to my children's wants and I weigh them against their needs. I think that this is were we differ. We should not get everything that we want, in my opinion it isn't healthy, but we should get everything that we need. My job as a parent is to ensure that my child gets everything that he needs, my love, my attention, my respect, etc, and to get some of what he wants. It is here where we often negotiate. I think it is equally important that my child see that I too, don't always get what I want. Thus the reason that my childs wants often come before my own. This is negotiation and cooperation between me and my children. We must each learn to balance our needs and wants together.

For every book you can find saying that your method is right, or the best, I can find ten saying elsewise (although I may not agree with them all.) For every expert you have saying that TCS is the right way or the best way, I can find dozens of experts saying differently. Parenting is trial and error, and we are all doing the best that we can. I am sure that we all disagree with each others opinions on many things in life but I take serious offense when you insinuate that you care more for your children that I do for mine, or that you take your children more seriously than I do mine. Pardon the snideness in my next comment, but after being told that I do not take my childen seriously I feel it is justified. Perhaps that selfish attitude is the result of the TCS theory. My apologies in advance.
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#186 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 03:14 AM
 
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looking for more ideas about how to handle cords, plugs, outlets, the electricity problem. dear child is very interested and although parents had a discussion with an 'expert' (parent and engineer) about potential dangers, parents are still in need of ways to talk about it with a toddler (few words)

secondly, a situation. let's say, it's almost christmas in a house where a couple of families live together, a young family and an old family. old family is used to their traditions, their objects; dc in young family is very young and really wants to touch these objects, really really really, and some traditions have already been altered to suit everyone (common preference found for various things). unfortunately young family is quite busy and cannot reproduce most items of interest (eg. gingerbread house, delicate ornaments). dc is young enough that verbal explanation and discussion is not always an ideal approach.

ideas please! and t h a n k y o u
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#187 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 04:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by jbcjmom
To imply that I don't take my children seriously if I don't practice the TCS theory is extremely insulting.
I'm assuming this statement is directed at me because I was the one who answered your post before this one. Please forgive me if I am assuming wrong.

I would like for you to tell me where I implied this. I merely asked what taking children seriously is to you. To me, it is described very clearly with TCS. I want to know where you are coming from, that is all.

In general what I have seen here is that people who have criticised that TCS is negligent or misguided and argue that they do take children seriously but do not say how. They proceed to provide examples of why TCS wouldn't work. And proceed to talk about how the name is insulting. I would like to get past the name. I am here to learn. I want to hear other peoples views. I thank you for having answered the question.


Quote:
Many things that our children do are due to their age and developmental phase. I'm not going into specifics.
This may be true but I don't understand what you are trying to say with this statement.

Quote:
Contrary to what you believe, I think that it is healthy for my children to learn that sometimes we need to concede to the wants and needs of others.
Ok. Tell me why you believe this. Maybe I am wrong to think differently. Maybe I won't realize it today but how can I realize it in the future with no rationale?

Quote:
A child who learns to "give in" and put others first becomes a child who learns that other's needs are as important, and at times more important than his own.
I would say that children learn that other people's needs are important because their needs and wants were seen as important and often not dismissed simply because they are children.

Quote:
I think that it is important that my child knows that when I tell him to put on his coat it is because I love him and I don't want him to be cold. I want him to know that he can count on me to protect him.
To illustrate how getting offended gets in the way of learning from eachother, I could get picky with this line and take offense with its implication that since I am parenting like TCS my child won't know that I love him and can't count on me to protect him. However, I choose not to be offended. Instead, I will tell you what I think. I think that a TCS child will know that he/she is loved because parents are trying to do everything in their power to not impose thier views (which could be wrong) on hir and find common preferences and share with hir their best thoeries as to how the world works. He/She will trust hir parents because he/she knows that the parents do not think it's right to make hir do things he/she doesn't want to do and will support him in whatever he/she does want to do.

Quote:
I think that small children who make every decision in their lives and are allowed to negotiate everything will fail to see their parents as someone they can count on for all the answers.
I think that all children will eventually see that they can't count on their parents for ALL of the answers. They can count on their parents to share their experiences, knowledge and wisdom but they will always find thier own answers whether they were TCSed or not. Sometimes these answers are the same the parents have, sometimes they are not.

Quote:
I think when the questions get bigger (drugs, sex) these children are going to look for someone to tell them that drugs are wrong and they should wait to have sex, but are instead going to be told to be careful.
This is not TCS. A TCS child will be told the parent's best theories about drugs and sex and if those theories are that they should wait to have sex or not do drugs then those will be the theories shared. A TCS parent IMO would provide all of the information possible for the child to see this and even information that may refute the parent's theories in order for the child to make a rational and informed decision (i.e. without the risk of being confused by the parent's entrenched theories).


Quote:
One friend once told me that she wished her parents would give her a curfew and rules, so that she would know that they loved her.
This doesn't sound like she was raised TCS and I'll explain why. IMO, in a TCS household there are rules BUT they are agreed upon by everyone. This, for example, means that a teenager agrees to the 11:00 pm curfew because he/she had input into the hour and because it is not an arbitary time imposed by the parents, this teenager will most often be home at that time, and if the teenager will miss that time that teenager will most often call hir parents to let them know when he/she will be home. This is much like a spouse would do. A spouse can come and go as he/she pleases without fear of punishment but AGREES to be home at a certain hour for whatever the reasons and most often, gets home on time.


Quote:
I strive to make my son's confident and independent people, but not at the expense of others.
This implies that TCS parents do this at the expense of others. If this is what you are saying, please explain how you think this is so.

Quote:
We should not get everything that we want, in my opinion it isn't healthy,
Why not? Why isn't it healthy, if it is done with everyone's consent and in a way that makes everyone happy?


Quote:
For every book you can find saying that your method is right, or the best, I can find ten saying elsewise (although I may not agree with them all.) For every expert you have saying that TCS is the right way or the best way, I can find dozens of experts saying differently.
Ok. Is this because I quoted the book? I did not quote the book to prove anything. I quoted it because the statements are relevant to the discussion and the theory was well-written. IMO the book "proves" nothing.


Quote:
Perhaps that selfish attitude is the result of the TCS theory. My apologies in advance.
I accept your apology. And I reserve further comment on this to eliminate any need to apologize.

With all due respect,

I.
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#188 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 02:42 PM
 
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I actually don't think that your's was the post I was responding to. The post that infuriated me last night seems to be missing. But anyway, I am getting tired of all the bickering about small points in how we raise our children when, for the most part, what we are doing is likely more similar than it is different. I practice many things in the TCS theory everyday, but I also take things from other areas and ideas too. Then I can take all the information and decide what is best for my family. I think that perhaps I am a bit more spiritually religious than many because I feel it is my responsibility to raise my kids in the church and to follow the ten commandments (including, honor thy mother and father.) I am not a zealot, but faith is important to my family and I take raising my children as good Catholics as a serious part of my job and TCS contradicts this in some areas. I'm going to take a break from this thread and this theory for a while and simply enjoy the holidays with my family. If anyone has any advice for my biting post, please let me know, but I won't be here for a while - it is too frustrating.

Happy Holidays everyone!
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#189 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 02:55 PM
 
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AP is easy and make life easier for us. No matter how much we made orwhere we lived or what we have. Even now a my dd is entering the most difficult phase of her life I still see the benifits of an AP lifestyle "In Arms" is still the best place for a hurt, distressed or angry child. We still sleep together on occaision when she is sick or scared. When she plays house I see her being "resposive and nurtiruing" to her dolls. We homeschool and that seems such a natural extension o being there for her when she was little. We stiil lovingly guide her on a day to day basis and genty correct her when she is naughty.

TCS on the other hand seems to me like a luxury. I could see myself doing that if I was never in a hurry to be anywhere, if I could do things at my leisure, if I had the paitence o negotiate, and only had one child. It would be hard enough to find common ground with two people but factor in three minds that want three seperate things and I see issues.

I don't necessarily see how TCS and AP are related. They seem like two entirly different things. I mean I can see how people can do both but I don't think they are all that related. A person can still do all the AP stuff and love thier child and take thier needs and desires seriously while still maintaining that mom knows what is best, safest and sometimes just has to be in charge and make athouritarian decissions. But that is sorta off topic.

The truest answer to violence is love. The truest answer to death is life. The only prevention for violence is for the heart to have no violence within it.  We cannot prevent evil through any system devised by mankind. But we can grapple with evil and defeat it, but only with love—real love.

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#190 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 03:11 PM
 
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A long time ago on the old mothering boards we went through this. We never came to any agreement or consensus, and there were bad feelings all around.
We disagree...so what? As I said before there is room for TCS and gentle discipline here.
When a Mom asks a discipline question the TCS people can give their answer, the gentle discipline people can give their answer. I see no reason why we must convince the other side we are right and they are wrong. Let's just stick to the original posters question and not pick apart each others answers.
Trying to keep the peace,
peggy
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#191 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 04:20 PM
 
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Sounds like a great idea!!!

Now, what was the question? LOL! LOL!
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#192 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 05:00 PM
 
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my dd is too young for me to start asking discipline advice....

but when I see Ms Mom attacked on her parenting techniques I have a problem.

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#193 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 05:17 PM
 
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I am not offended, as another user had previously posted here, about TCS responses. Personally, I feel that parents providing gentle and unoffensive TCS information is fine. Just like how recently, I provided gentle, unoffensive gentle discipline/ap information to a friend who does not attachmet parent and wanted additional information on how to discipline her ds.

But, when individuals are being offended and hurt on this forum or on others forums for that matter, we all need to step back, take some deep breaths. And, we want to be gentle with our children, but what about each other? Remember, we all love our children dearly and we all want the best for them. Thats why we come here to this Mothering community.

Happy Holidays~

Lisa

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#194 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 06:38 PM
 
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Wow! It is amazing how much passion has arisen from this discussion. It makes sense, though, that our methods of caring for our children, particularly when we are talking about things as important as helping them or guiding them to grow into healthy adults, invoke a deep sense of meaning in our lives. From meaning grows passion.

Despite this passion, I hope this conversation will continue with a deeper sense of respect and gentleness toward one another as care takers of our children. All of us want to be the best parents we can be for our children.

What colors our various parenting styles in their unique shades is a complex mixture of our own life experiences and history, our cultural backgrounds, our present life circumstances, the composition of our families, our personalities, the personalities of our ever unique children, and numerous other factors that will vary from person to person and family to family.

There are no one-size-fits-all approaches to parenting. Even in parenting our own children, we know that with each child, new strategies and desires and needs develop. I take the stuff that works for me out of many theories. I take what works for me from TCS and leave the rest. I take what works for me out of Gentle Discipline and leave the rest. I am so grateful that I have such a wide array of theories and approaches at my fingertips (in this community, in the library, in magazines, etc.) to examine and learn from.

I do constantly examine my own assumptions and approaches so that I may regularly improve what I'm doing. I think most of us do that or we wouldn't be here.

This forum, and particularly, this thread, provides an excellent opportunity to do this examination. Of course, each of us has the right to choose when we do self-examine as parents, and when we do not want to undergo this self-examination; and each of us has the right to self-examine only to various degrees, as well as the right to make decisions that work for us as individual families despite what others may think about those decisions.

What concerns me in this thread, as someone watching from the sidelines, is that there have been a couple of instances in which folks have lost their cool and entered the realm of flaming and disrespectful posting. Perhaps it's time for a break from this conversation. Maybe we should all agree to come back to this next week??? I don't know. But the fact is, these are support boards, and it is important that the need for support is not trampled on by the passions we have for various causes.

As Peggy said, when folks ask a question, we can support and offer guidance from all our perspectives, but the person asking the question should not then be subjected to a stampede of angry and non-gentle posts that stop adressing the original question.

In this thread, where I believe there was no question and the purpose of the post was to open up a conversation about TCS theories, it is important that that same sense of gentleness and respect is maintained. No matter how much we disagree. No matter how passionate we are. Let's allow each other a little breathing room.

With respect,
Sierra

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#195 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 06:49 PM
 
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Oh, I also wanted to recognize that it looks like a lot of folks are trying to refocus this conversation so that it is more respectful and compassionate. I'm happy to see this progress, and I hope we can all move forward!

Sierra

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#196 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 07:34 PM
 
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ok, Im probably exceeding my # of replies to this issue but I was thinking the other day as I spat out my rather hasty post above that maybe it would be more comfortable to have exchange on this if we all had a common definition of what luxury is-


ALl these labels drive me crazy and I may be out of my league but I think good parenting is a luxury- and as someone else said it well-
also an excellant investment-
but the rich always get richer and rich CAN be a state of mind- but that may be getting into prosperity consciousness too?
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#197 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 07:49 PM
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It seems to me that every thread in gentle discipline turns into a TCS vs AP debate. It really makes it difficult to get an answer or help here and I need answers and help in this area. I have gotten nice answers from both sides of the coin and am strong enough to choose what is right and wrong for me. Why do the TCS and AP camp have such a problem accepting each other's presence? Look, I don't really understand the whole TCS concept and even if I did I might not posess that kind of patience. And sometimes the more mainstream AP experts are a bit too disciplinarian for my tastes. So I am not choosing sides here. However, this endless debate of who is right and wrong and why is exceedingly tiresome. Can't we agree to disagree, post our posts and comment on what we don't like or agree with specifically and leave it at that? Or keep the debate to it's own thread? Because noone is winning here, especially the kids of mothers who need simple advice and support and not indoctrination.
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#198 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 07:54 PM
 
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Mamapie - I don't see this as a debate of whether one or the other approach is right. What feels right to you? That is the only right answer, in my book.
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#199 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 08:00 PM
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i know that post sounded raggy but I still maintain that this isn't really a gentle discipline forum but rather a TCS vs AP debate. I am littering this thread by even mentioning it. I will just keep away until everyone can learn to live w each other. I think that feels right to me. I mean that gently, and I wish we were speaking so you could hear my tone and not think I am beiing harsh.
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#200 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 09:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly
If he doesn't want to take a bath he's doing it. I am not going to breed germs because an 11 month old feels like boycotting bath time.[/B]
I know that heavenly has received much criticism, but this statement strikes me as ludicrous! Whoever decided babies need daily baths, anyway? I must say that my children bathe every 2-3 days in the wintertime and they are perfectly happy and healthy. I can see where a daily bath becomes a ritual and some babies thrive on that unchanging routine, but skipping bathtime will not in any way breed germs!

My 22 m/o dd HATES getting her hair washed, so we limit it to once weekly. We could probably wash it even less w/out doing her any harm... Some would consider our weekly hair-washing coercive, but I try to do it as gently as possible and am always racking my brain to come up w/ ways to make dd WANT to do it. (Last time I actually got her to cooperate by letting her do it herself and using a minimal amount of water to get her hair wet initially. I also didn't rinse as much as I would have liked, but stopped when I saw she'd had enough.)

In a way, heavenly's comments were terrific because they sparked such an interesting debate and helped us all to learn more about TCS. I strongly recommend all who haven't done so to check out TCS website (see larsy's original post for link) and see that they encourage debate. We SHOULD NOT "agree to differ," the 'politically correct' way to handle any arguement. Debate should be encouraged, although this is not to say that it shouldn't be done without having respect for both people and opinions...
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#201 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 10:02 PM
 
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Originally posted by paula_bear
Debate should be encouraged, although this is not to say that it shouldn't be done without having respect for both people and opinions...
Right. That's what I'm saying. But it is also important that never should debate trample over someone's need for support on these boards. These boards are support boards. Please, please, please, let's go gently...

Sierra

I'm pro-adoption reform, but not anti-adoption.
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#202 of 589 Old 12-17-2001, 11:07 PM
 
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I spent some more time thinking about TCS theory and identified this problem that I have with it:

I do agree that children are rational and logical. In other words, there is a *reason* for every behavior the child exhibits. However, I also believe it's true that children are more myopic in their reasoning than adults are, even when information is given to them. For instance, using my toy-out-the-window example, the child who is given information that a likely outcome of a toy being thrown out a window is that the toy will break. Assume for the example the toy really is a special one to the child, and not one he/she wants to break, but that he/she really wants to throw it out the window (possibly to test gravity, or to check to see if the parent's information is correct, whatever logical reasoning you want to come up with). He/she is not willing to throw something out the window in its place (or is willing to throw other objects, but ALSO wants to throw the toy out the window - I've been in many situations like these!). In this case, the child is not able to hold both the idea that the toy may break AND the idea that it sure would be fun to test this out in their head at the same time, even though they have perfectly logical reasons about why they want to throw the toy. Sort of like Piaget's kids not being able to hold both height and width of a glass in their minds at the same time, and so being unable to conserve volume. In summary, does this mean the child's logic/reasoning abilities are not fully developed, and if so can we then expect children to make good choices most of the time?

Also in regards to the toy-out-the-window example, what if the child does regret the decision to throw the toy out the window afterwards and wants me to buy a replacement, but I feel coerced having to shell out $30 when we're just scraping by as it is? We'll assume for this that the child is 3, not an older child who could perhaps earn the money his or herself (but even in the case of an older child, would requiring the child to do that be considered coercive?)
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#203 of 589 Old 12-18-2001, 01:31 AM
 
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To the original question:
I am an AP/NP parent that pratices TCS. I find that the two have much in common and makes it easy to do both at the same time. I'm a SAHM with only one child so that might make it a luxury to not have to deal with more than one opinon. I consider my life's position and my dh's undevoted support to be a luxury in an emotional sense. We only make $1000/mo so it is not a monetary luxury at all to be able to do both. I never have to be anywhere at a certain time, so that is less stressful. I really don't know if I would be able to do all that I have time to do now if I worked. The last job I had (loan processing for a mortgage company) was very stressful and had long hours. I do go grocery shopping with a friend of mine who has a young child that my dd loves to be around. By the time we get to the checkout I'm very stressed!!! I'm not sure how I would handle two kids. I'm getting stressed out just imagining it.

To the last statements: I have been AP/NP since the birth of our dd, but didn't realize there was a term for our style of parenting until dd was 6mos. I have been learning more about TCS in the last few months, and again, I had pretty much been doing this from the start. I don't think of myself as being AP vs. TCS because I believe the two of these approaches fit well together in our home. As said before, one has become an extension of the other. I am not against gentle discipline as it is a part of TCS theory. I still can lose it when it comes to some of the things my dd does (or doesn't) do. I still try to do my very best for her and I am far from perfect. But, I try to be as perfect as I can everyday by using the AP and TCS methods.

I love any and all advice. I find that I not only learn from things I agree with, but also from those things I disagree with.

I wish I knew how to put smiley faces on my post to show that I'm not talking in a harsh way, but since I don't, all I can do is tell you that I'm speaking/writing in an easy going way, not judgemental and certainly not to be offensive.
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#204 of 589 Old 12-18-2001, 03:21 AM
 
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I have started a thread in the 6-8 yr old section of parenting and would like advise on how to switch from "conventional-type" parenting methods to a more TCS-geared approach w/ an older child. Would appreciate more experienced TCSers to explain how I might do this gently and effectively. Thanks for the input.
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#205 of 589 Old 12-18-2001, 05:07 AM
 
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I would like to withdraw my statement, as it was off topic, and I do not wish to ruffle any feathers. Sorry

Just your typical non-theistic, liberal, blended family.

Thank you, Mothering, for the past twelve years of support and community. I look forward to many more.
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#206 of 589 Old 12-18-2001, 05:23 AM
 
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I would like to refocus on this original question a little bit and reiterate what Ms. Mom has said and what I said earlier today in the TCS thread.

The primary purpose of this online community is as a support board. Disagreement and respectful discussion of parenting issues are always welcome, but never should debates trample over someone's need for support.

Let's work to become more gentle and compassionate and respectful with each other, even in our disagreements. And when a mom asks for support and guidance, I hope we can all respond to her needs first and foremost.

Gently,
Sierra

I'm pro-adoption reform, but not anti-adoption.
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#207 of 589 Old 12-18-2001, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
 
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BTW, there are TCS families with all numbers of kids. It is a matter of attitude, not numbers.

best wishes!
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#208 of 589 Old 12-18-2001, 03:31 PM
 
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Originally posted by bigcats
****I spent some more time thinking about TCS theory and identified this problem that I have with it:

I do agree that children are rational and logical. In other words, there is a *reason* for every behavior the child exhibits. However, I also believe it's true that children are more myopic in their reasoning than adults are, even when information is given to them. For instance, using my toy-out-the-window example, the child who is given information that a likely outcome of a toy being thrown out a window is that the toy will break. Assume for the example the toy really is a special one to the child, and not one he/she wants to break, but that he/she really wants to throw it out the window (possibly to test gravity, or to check to see if the parent's information is correct, whatever logical reasoning you want to come up with). He/she is not willing to throw something out the window in its place (or is willing to throw other objects, but ALSO wants to throw the toy out the window - I've been in many situations like these!). In this case, the child is not able to hold both the idea that the toy may break AND the idea that it sure would be fun to test this out in their head at the same time, even though they have perfectly logical reasons about why they want to throw the toy. Sort of like Piaget's kids not being able to hold both height and width of a glass in their minds at the same time, and so being unable to conserve volume. In summary, does this mean the child's logic/reasoning abilities are not fully developed, and if so can we then expect children to make good choices most of the time****

From the TCS point of view, is it wrong to assume that children have certain limitations without first observing them ourselves. And even then, we should not assume that the same "limitation" will be there the next time a problem comes up. We assume that the child is rational and so we *help* the child do what s/he wants to do. In the example you offered, the child wants to throw a favourite toy out of a window. We assume that the act of throwing this toy out of the window will break it and we assume that the child does not *want* the toy to be broken. And, of course, we *always* assume that our assumptions could be wrong ;-)...But in order to help the child do what s/he wants to do and prevent the results from causing distress or harm, we inform the child of the possible consequences. We could also demonstrate the possible consequences by throwing something else out the window first ("see, when I throw this out, it breaks. That might happen to this toy if you throw it"). If the child still wants to throw the toy out, we help hir in whatever way we can. Perhaps the toy won't break. Perhaps it will break and s/he will be fine with that result. But, yes, it might break and s/he might be very upset. S/he made a mistake. Do we punish hir for this? Do we say, "I told you so?". No. I think that a responsible and caring parent does all s/he can at this point to comfort hir child. Perhaps the toy can be replaced. Or perhaps it can be fixed. Or some other solution may be found to help the child out of the state of coercion.

****but I feel coerced having to shell out $30 when we're just scraping by as it is? ****

If this is truly the case (and I think it is important for parents to be honest about these things....If something you valued broke accidentally, would you "find" the money to replace it?), then the parent could provide that information *beforehand* so that the child can take that into account in hir decision. If the child is too young to truly understand these consequences, the parent could offer comfort afterwards and something *else* to cheer the child (ice cream? a game? a walk? etc...).

****We'll assume for this that the child is 3, not an older child who could perhaps earn the money his or herself (but even in the case of an older child, would requiring the child to do that be considered coercive?) ****

If the child did not agree that this was a good solution, then it would be coercive, yes. Replacing the toy by earning hir own money is *one* possible solution. There are certainly many others. The point is that the family would work *together* to find/create solutions that *everyone* was happy with. In a TCS family, no *one* person decides the best solution for everyone else (whether this person is an adult or a child).
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#209 of 589 Old 12-18-2001, 11:38 PM
 
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Couple of situations for you TCSers.

First, there is a Christmas party atour church this Friday. I am looking forward to going. Let's say on this evening dd decides she doesn't want to go out. If this happened in one of your homes what would you do? The basic core question here is if parent wants one thing and child wants another thing, 2 things that contradict each other, does the child always get her way in the end?

Next, my husband is, IMO, inconsiderate of others. One example, in the grocery store today, we were letting dd walk around carrying something for us. She walks slow as she is only one and a half. She is standing in the middle of the aisles and moving very slow. I notice people trying to get by, waiting for her to move, when she really isn't on her way to move, but rather keeping a straight slow path in front of them. KWIM? I know I am generally care too much about what others think, but this bothers me to no end. My dh seems not to notice whos way she is in. Is it bad of me, in your opinion, to move her out of the way? Or pick her up?

One more example. We were in a small store the other day. DD was picking everything up and smelling it...(actually blowing her nose on it.) The store lady seemed to begetting frustrated. Dh was there with me so he took her outside for a bit, but if I had been alone it would have been awful!
Oh, I thought of another one! When we go to Walmart or whatever sometimes dd doesn't want to ride in the cart. But when we let her walk it is so so slow, looking at everything and touching everything, finding something she wants and then a fit when we put it back ( although we are getting very good and sneaking things back onto the shelves behind her back....very coersive I know, but we really can't afford to get her things.) You might say leave her home...This is kind of sensitive for me because I like going shopping with dh. He works alot so the time we have together is percious to me, so I would like to spend as much of it as we can together.

Anyway, I have to say I love most of what this theory has to offer. I am trying more and more to respect my dd's wishes. I still fail plenty but it feels good when I succeed. A few weeks ago i may have forced my dd to get dressed when I was ready for her to get dressed. Now I know to carve out an hour long block before we have to go somewhere to give time for her to decide to get dressed. This sounds like it is a bad thing, but it is wonderful not having to push her into something she doesn't want. It is amazing to dh and I how these social ideas are all stuck in our brain. That kids are lower class citizens and need to be pushed around. It makes me sad now when I do force her to do something. I feel so abusive because i am so much bigger than her...and I just don't care about what she wants at the time. That is so rude! Anyway, you ladies are really helping me alot to be a better mommy! Thanks.
Beth
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#210 of 589 Old 12-19-2001, 12:16 AM
 
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ok we have some silly questions over here...

our little girl doesnt like her carseat most of the time... we feel it is obviously very coersive to leave her in the seat when it upsets her.
when we have tiem we will stop on the side of the road and wait for her to accept the seat. when we arre in a hurry, however, into the sling she goes...

is this ok by tcs?

what were really wondering about is baby proofing, namiely baby gates. i know disallwing exploration of dangerous things {stairs, outlets} is coersive..

but how abour if you took the gate down whenever the child expresses interest in the stairs?

we'd be willing to help her explore whenever she wants but would still worry that shed fall down the stairs {some random time when we didnt realize} if we didnt have the gate.

{we have a split level home, with hardwood stairs that end in stone... and a wall. }

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