Friendly conversations on Ezzo... - Page 4 - Mothering Forums

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Old 12-12-2004, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by heartmama
Your gentle interpretations are a credit to yourself. They are not a credit to Ezzo, or the babywise approach. .
Beautifully said, heartmama!
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Old 12-12-2004, 07:27 PM
 
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Thank you, heartmama. I spend an awful lot of time in anti-Ezzo activism, online and IRL, and I just don't have the heart to debate it at MDC! This is my safe place.

Nevertheless, this thread has bothered me greatly. I am thankful for your gentle post.

I have read Babywise, Babywise 2, materials from Prep for Parenting and Growing Kids God's Way. Also the one about birth, I forget the name. I have personally had a discussion online with Anne Marie Ezzo. I've perused the GFI website. I belong to two yahoo support groups concerning Ezzoism, one is just for parents who need support after leaving Ezzo's ways. I recently left a church (actually it was more like a cult) in which every family with a baby followed Babywise.

I can not see Ezzoism and attachment parenting, co-existing in any way. I'm very surprised to find mothers at MDC, who can see some good in Ezzo's ideas!
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Old 12-12-2004, 08:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by townmouse
I have personally had a discussion online with Anne Marie Ezzo.
Wow. I would love to know what you said if you don't mind sharing.

Mom to Dakota (6), Coy, (4), Max, (4), Lily (4), and Auri (June 19th 2010)!
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Old 12-12-2004, 10:41 PM
 
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To heartmama and townmouse: Well said, thank you so much.

I cannot believe that this thread is carrying on in this capacity on Mothering. The entire Ezzo philosophy, if one can call it that, is so counter to everything this board stands for (I thought). I am truly at a loss for words. Of course we all want to feel that what we are doing is the best for ourselves and our children, but Babywise???? On Mothering???? Give me a break. I am sick.
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Old 12-12-2004, 11:52 PM
 
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Why is it so difficult to imagine AP and BW being able to be blended. Yes the philosophies are completely different but I am just talking about methods. I think the human mom is quite capable of being imaginative enough to find what works best for her and her children, and if it is a blend, then so be it.

necessity is the mother of invention....

-julia
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Old 12-13-2004, 12:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jkstewart
Why is it so difficult to imagine AP and BW being able to be blended. Yes the philosophies are completely different but...
I know I took you out of context but you answered your own question right there. Heartmama really said it the best, I'm going to just ditto her post again. It's hard for me to imagine an AP mom finding anything of value in BW because the philosophies are so different.
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Old 12-13-2004, 12:18 AM
 
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No, I don't think that Babywise and AP are blendable, at all. They just...aren't...think about it, at the core of Babywise is the belief that if you practice AP, you are going to ruin your child - thus they are unblendable.

Now, tell me that scheduling and AP are blendable, and I'll believe it. But only if you leave the lunatic-ideas of Babywise out of it. Just because there's some validity to creating schedule/rhythm to your and baby's life, does not mean that the Babywise method is at all compatible with AP. And there is NO WAY in HECK I am recommending or even tolerating a book based on approximately two sentances worth of good advice and another 200 pages of absolutely disgusting misinformation and bad advice.

Mama, homeschooler, midwife. DD (13yo), DS (11yo), DD (8yo), DD (3yo), somebody new coming in November 2013.

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Old 12-13-2004, 12:19 AM
 
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I guess when I read BW I knew that there were going to be ideas that I disagreed with. I left emotion at the door and just concentrated on the method. It is very hard to explain... I wish I could do better. Alot of AP just did not work with me and my son, some of the BW stuff did. I did what worked for the both of us from both books. I just wanted to share that a natural mom, could (and did) find use/good out of BW.... Call me what you will. I felt that it was important to share my story. - Julia
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:22 PM
 
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I think it's like nikirj said, scheduling and ap can blend. Gary Ezzo and ap cannot. He is fundamentally opposed to it. He says in his books that ap'ing is a BAD thing to do.

I believe that you could have pulled a schedule that works for your family out of the Babywise book. But I also think that there are better places to get the information from where you don't have to filter out so much crap.

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Old 12-13-2004, 05:11 PM
 
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I guess that all I got out of the BW book was scheduling. So when I think of BW I think of just scheduling and nothing else. I guess I am just not as passionate about either method as to see good and evil in either one. - j
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Old 12-13-2004, 09:19 PM
 
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If you have to leave your emotions out of it when you read Babywise, that's not unusual, and it's typical of the detachment encouraged by the program.

I'd be very curious to hear what you thought about Babywise if you read it again, paying careful attention to how it made you feel on an attached, emotional level.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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Old 12-13-2004, 10:56 PM
 
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The problem that I had with Womanly Art and all that, is since I had never had a baby before, I had NO idea what to do. Yes, I held him, and nursed him, carried him everywhere, no CIO, but I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. I would hear other mothers (ap and bw) talk about when their baby went to bed, how long they napped, how much they ate... I thought to myself, how do you know when it is time for a nap? How many naps does he need, how much sleep does he need.... Womanly Art could not answer that for me.... babywise could. What do you all think about the Baby Wisperer? To me that book was practically identical to Babywise. I never hear that getting a bad wrap... I guess if I had read Baby Wisperer first I wouldn't have even gotten to Babywise. Thinking back, I just don't remember reading anything truely cruel or horrible (the screaming until throwing up thing was about it). It just made sense to me, it clicked... go figure. Like I said before, I am not a christian, had no idea who Ezzo was, so that was no influence. I had read AP and Dr Sears (still turn to him for things today) - But in those early months... for me the best answers I got were from Babywise. I am sorry that this upsets moms here - I just thought my story would be interesting to other natural moms... It is almost like I have no home. I am not a Babywise Chruch going Christian, but yet again, I guess I am not a full fledge Mothering Mom either... maybe there is a middle of the road mom group :-) anyway, thanks everyone for listening and sharing.
- Julia
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Old 12-13-2004, 11:48 PM
 
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Julia, I'm pm'ing you
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Old 12-14-2004, 12:23 AM
 
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I haven't read the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding in years.

I'm curious though what you mean that it "couldn't tell you" what to expect in terms of normal sleep, waking patterns?

I am sure Sears does describe normal newborn behaviour in detail. I don't know whether you read Sears, but I know his books talk about sleep, feeding cycles, the number of diapers that should be wet/soiled in 24 hours.

Does Womanly Art not talk about that?

Could it have been the tone of voice you were responding too? Were you feeling insecure during that time? I know that Ezzo has a very commanding, authoritarian "Do xyz and it will be perfect" tone. And Sears and other AP books tend to put the practical advice in between lots of encouragement to follow your gut, use your own instincts etc.

Some of what you have said comes across to me as this whole issue being not so much about what these different books said, but how they said it, and the place you were at when you read them. Am i way off?

If not I really would encourage you to read them again. You may not feel so lost now that you seem to be at a place of more confidence, with an older baby. I really do think it would be good for you to re read Babywise as well as The Baby Book by Sears. I just sense that you may go "a ha!" if you did that, and have a better sense of WHY these two philosphies are so divisive, and how much or little of Babywise is actually a reflection of your own instincts and beliefs.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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Old 12-14-2004, 09:50 AM
 
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nak

IMO, Baby Whisper gives lots inaccurate breastfeeding advice as well. She also advocates sleep training. Just want get that out there. Now back to nursing my very wiggly baby.
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Old 12-15-2004, 01:56 AM
 
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Baby Whisperer horrified me. She tells parents that the sounds newborns make have no more significance than the sounds made by a puppy or kitten, by that she means they are essentially just noise. Shows how much she knows about puppies and kittens, eh. Dh read that part of the book and said she sounded like she hated babies. Very strong words from my mildmannered hubby!! She also speaks happily of a day sometime in the future when perhaps we will have genetically engineered cows to make human milk for us so none of us will have to nurse our babies.

That was enough for me, but she also advocates CIO, just without leaving the room. Well if I was crying and in need of comfort and dh just stood there next to me saying, "you're okay honey, you're ok" I'd feel so betrayed. So I dropped that book like a hot potato.
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Old 12-15-2004, 10:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaOui
nak

IMO, Baby Whisper gives lots inaccurate breastfeeding advice as well. She also advocates sleep training. Just want get that out there. Now back to nursing my very wiggly baby.
There seems to be an abundance of misinformation about breastfeeding out there. I read a quote in Babytalk magazine from some lady (can't remember her or her book's name, it was one I hadn't heard of before) and she was saying not to worry about nipple confusion, that was only an issue for babies who had latching difficulties. She advocated giving bottles right away, I believe, in order to acclimate them to them. :

I guess the moral to the story is that you should only get breastfeeding information from qualified personnel (LC's or LLL staff/leaders) and even then, sometimes it's iffy (from LC's, LLL Leaders all rule IMO!!!!).
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Old 12-15-2004, 03:57 PM
 
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I will be looking myself, but if anyone has a specific link to what the AAP says about Babywise that they could post, I'd appreciate it. Thanks

edit: Nevermind! I had it all along! :LOL

WAHMama to Allen (2-10-05) and Alexa (6-27-08)
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Old 12-15-2004, 10:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jkstewart
Alot of AP just did not work with me and my son, some of the BW stuff did.
The thing that I'm seeing here is you giving a book credit for something YOU figured out would work for your child. You say Babywise did something, when actually it was YOU that did it. You might very well have figured it out without ever reading the book.

From what I'm understanding from the conversation, Ezzo isn't blendable b/c he refuses to admit there can be variation.

The very fact that you figured out what makes your child happiest and healthiest proves that you're being AP.

No need for you to bring BW into your description of your parenting style at all, you figured it all out and helped your child!

***
If I get into a discussion about BW I just tell them that I heard his church kicked him out, that there were problems with people following it to the letter, as I hear he intends people to do, and those facts kept me from looking into at all. And I tell them I raise my son as my mother intended to raise me...I credit the good parts of me on how she wanted to raise me and the bits that she was able to do, and I "credit" the bad/needy parts of me to the two divorces she had and utter poverty, which is what kept her from raising us exactly as she had intended.

Bringing my mom into the discussion usually shushes people who know me.
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Old 12-15-2004, 10:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jkstewart
The problem that I had with Womanly Art and all that, is since I had never had a baby before, I had NO idea what to do. Yes, I held him, and nursed him, carried him everywhere, no CIO, but I had no idea what I was supposed to be doing. I would hear other mothers (ap and bw) talk about when their baby went to bed, how long they napped, how much they ate... I thought to myself, how do you know when it is time for a nap? How many naps does he need, how much sleep does he need....
Who *does* know what to do from the beginning? You just see what works. When other parents are talking about those things, I generally think they are pretending they know what they're doing. That's easier than wondering if I'm doing things wrong.

My guy is 6+ months and has changed his own schedule about 4 times so far. Like right now he seems to be enjoying 2, sometimes 3 2ish hour naps a day, and he sleeps really well at night if he goes to bed when we do and not before. That's what he likes right now, so if a new parent heard me talking and thought I knew what I was doing, she might be in trouble to try to follow me!

I still think you found what worked, and that's not middleoftheroad, that's being attached.
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