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#1 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
 
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...or Dobson, or whatever....
What do you say when these things come up with acquaintances? You know....you are just chatting with another mama at work, or at church, or wherever, and they ask you if you have read/used Babywise? Or some other such book?

So, what do you say? Do you open up a conversation? Do you simply say "No." and change the subject quickly? Or do you grimace uncontrollably and make no coherent points (as I did yesterday : :LOL )
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#2 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 10:58 AM
 
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I say something along the lines of "Yes, I thought it sounded promising until I read that the AAP condemned it and warns parents not to use those methods because of the risk of FTT and failure of breastfeeding."

That's for Ezzo. For Dobson, I would just say that I disagree with the methods in those books and I found some other books that I was more comfortable referring to.
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#3 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 12:10 PM
 
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I know who Ezzo is, but who is Dobson? Just as bad I'm assuming?

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#4 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 12:32 PM
 
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Dobson isn't as bad when it comes to babies. He doesn't pretend to know about breastfeeding or their feeding schedules. He is, in his books though, pretty anti-gentle discipline.

With Ezzo, if I'm talking to another Christian, I always drop the fact that he was excommunicated- twice. Especially nowadays, it takes a lot to get a church to kick you out. And at least one of the times (probably both) the trouble was directly related to his books.

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#5 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 01:00 PM
 
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You all are better women than I!

I learned about Ezzo last year when we accidentally joined an Ezzo church/cult. I studied it for a year, did some activism, helped with the Detroit news story, etc. I didn't save one baby in that church, and got myself thrown out of it (Thank God).

But it was the worst year of my life, trying to open people's eyes to the evils of Ezzoism!

Now when I hear the words "Ezzo" or "Babywise", I slowly turn redder and redder until I am purple and then the profanity begins : . Usually takes me a day or two to quit shaking.
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#6 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 01:07 PM
 
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WOW, it's REALLY hard for me to not come across totally biased about Ezzo. Which is fine, I guess. It's come up once - my friend who'd recently had a baby grabbed it while we were at Barnes and Noble and laid it on the table, saying, "Have you read this one? My friend so-and-so swears by it." I looked at it and tried to keep from throwing up... and then I said, "I haven't read the whole thing but I know what it teaches, and it's definitely not for me. I really disagree with his philosophies on babies." Turns out she didn't even know what it was about, so I was able to nicely explain, and she agreed that CIO wasn't for them either. WHEW!

Dobson hasn't come up yet, except with my husband when I let him know one day that, as much as we do like a lot of what Dobson says, he will not be our source of info for discipline. DH was really surprised so I explained why and he agreed. I'm quite certain Dobson will come up with my friend mentioned above, b/c just last night we started a discipline discussion. (They are planning to spank - know how I feel about it and respect my feelings, and are usually willing to listen to WHY. Thank goodness. The baby is 8mo and she mentioned last night that they're going to start reading books on discipline. Both come from families that spanked - no GD at all - very authoritarian.

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#7 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 01:10 PM
 
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WITh Ezzo I do what the PP said, say "wow, the AAP says his methods are harmful, I would never do that"

With Dobson, I say, "it's a shame people think that you have to punish kids, I never do that." People are usually shocked when I say that (especially because my kids are unusually polite and well behaved (around other people, they are not perfect at home, but that's ok.) They usually bring up how good my kids are and I say, well see you don't need to punish to get that.
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#8 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya43
With Dobson, I say, "it's a shame people think that you have to punish kids, I never do that." People are usually shocked when I say that (especially because my kids are unusually polite and well behaved (around other people, they are not perfect at home, but that's ok.) They usually bring up how good my kids are and I say, well see you don't need to punish to get that.
I say similar things sometimes (but not as well...), and have a similar situation (dd is *golden* around people she does not know well. She has clear understanding about considering other people and such, and acts like the "model child"). But I have difficulty expressing what I do other than punishment. And people tend to see me as very extreme in this area. I *am* pretty extreme in my opinions about hitting children, of course. I have a very hard time being diplomatic about that.

I may just steal your quote, Maya. I like your wording. That pretty much sums it up without too much grimace and disgust

The AAP recommendation is a really good response. I think I might actually bring that up with this mama next time I see her...or maybe I should just let it drop
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#9 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 04:00 PM
 
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I am unfamiliar with Ezzo firsthand, but from what I have heard it's not a good thing. Dobson on the other hand is all ick to me. I have a friend that thinks he is the greatest thing ever (her church has hosted him speaking I think) and we just disagree totally there. I just express that I think he is very wrong, and it's sad that people feel they need to treat children that way.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats a man who can do him absolutely no good."
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#10 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 04:08 PM
 
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Who is Ezzo? :

I had to ask who the Pearls were as well - that was an eyeopener :
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#11 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Ezzo wrote On becoming Babywise, and Childwise (for older kids), and maybe some other crap

He is big on schedules, and teaches that babies who don't eat enough at one feeding should be denied more food until the next scheduled feeding. That'll learn um!
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#12 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 07:59 PM
 
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: ok, who are the Pearls?

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#13 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 08:21 PM
 
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: ok, so I havent gotten much reading done either....who? what do they talk about? if someone could sum-up all these ppl I'd dearly appreciate it!
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#14 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 09:02 PM
 
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The Pearls are into stuff like hitting your baby with a switch.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
13yo ds   10yo dd  8yo ds and 6yo ds and 1yo ds  
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#15 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 10:36 PM
 
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I have never heard of the Pearls, thank goodness. I was given a copy of Baby Wise when DS came home at the age of three and half weeks..I had never heard of Ezzo at that time..it took all of three paragraphs or so to realize that now way -no how was I going to treat my baby that way...The Pearls sound positively hideous...My children are now 11 and 12 years old and I have used GD and both are well behaved well adjusted children who have never been hit by a switch..That makes me sick to even think about .......
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#16 of 110 Old 12-03-2004, 11:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phathui5
The Pearls are into stuff like hitting your baby with a switch.

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#17 of 110 Old 12-04-2004, 12:12 PM
 
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Why do people do stuff like this!!!???

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#18 of 110 Old 12-04-2004, 02:24 PM
 
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I say that yes I am familier with them but that they just weren't right for our family and then I change the subject.

I admit it, I'm a wimp.

I don't like to talk about these things with people who feel differently than I do.

My whole family just loves Dobson. I took such much crap from them during the toddler years because I didn't smack my kids around. My mom is still in shock that my kids are lovely and well behaved. She can't quite figure out how it is that my kids are so much easier to be around than my sister's kids, who have been spanked, yelled at, punished, bribed, etc.
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#19 of 110 Old 12-04-2004, 02:35 PM
 
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Hey, I wonder if there is an anti-EzzoDobsonPearl bumper sticker out there. Ezzo and the Pearls are a little more out there and I don't think are necessarily as well known, but even I had heard of Dobson. I think he is enough in the mainstream that people don't realize how bad he can be in terms of punishment.
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#20 of 110 Old 12-04-2004, 02:37 PM
 
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Do a Google search for Ezzo or Babywise, then do one for the Pearls or To Train up a Child. Then be prepared to feel ill. I think Ezzo is pretty bad but IMO the Pearls are the worst of them all. Those people seem to truly hate children. The most sickening thing to me is that ALL these people - Ezzo, the Pearls, Dobson - use Christianity and the bible to defend and support their violent, disrespectful childrearing methods! What is with these people?

I have a hard time explaining what exactly I do besides punish, too. I think it's because it's such a situational thing, I can speak about it in really vague, broad terms but how I put it into practice varies so much depending on what's actually happening at the time. For me it's much easier to do it than to describe it.
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#21 of 110 Old 12-04-2004, 10:32 PM
 
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I used to do home-based services for children who had developmental delays. I was assigned one little guy with a speech delay and his parents were completely on board with the " Train Up a Child" philosophy. I had to look it up so I could learn what they were talking about. I had to have a sit down discussion with them and tell them I was completely against them stricking their child in my presence and if I ever saw any marks on him I would report them. It was such a slippery slope because I am supposed to be culturally sensitive and saying "I think you people are maniacs" would have surely gotten me fired. I tried to gently offer them alternatives, but they adamently refused.

There child displayed a number of heartbreaking stress-related behaviors including nail biting and pulling out his own hair-HE WAS TWO! We (me and the staff) knew these behaviors were directly linked to their choice of punishment but they refused to believe us.

Interestingly enough, this mother and I had the same doula, so I hear updaets on her occasionally. She has since had another child (yikes)
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#22 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 01:44 AM
 
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I say, "oh-- the Ezzo book? Gosh, have you heard about the controversy surrounding that book? Did you know that parents have starved their babies by following his method? It's just a scary concept to me - starving my baby, so I don't want to have anything to do with it" -- I kind of play it like I heard it on E! or something so that I don't sound like I"m preaching - but yet I keep on with a couple of more examples so that at least I get my point across. And hopefully they listen.
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#23 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 02:30 AM
 
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I love that Magnoliamama. Because, well there is controversy, and that way of sharing information makes it more approachable. I am wary of invoking the AAP, given their stance on other issues, namely co-sleeping. I would rather just say, this is what I heard. Let them hear it, and try to let it go.

Not that I could do that, mind you. I just like the idea. I have never actually spoken with someone who practices those methods, I have only read about them. My reaction would more likely be stammering nonsense, straight from my gut.
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#24 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 01:18 PM
 
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Luckily no one has ever brought up the Ezzos or Pearls around me. My mom used Dobson's methods on us though. I vividly remember being spanked with wooden spoons as a child. There's video of me on my third birthday getting my 'birthday spankings' from my grampa. I was crying because I though I was in trouble. How sad is that!? Of course, my whole family thinks it's just the funniest thing. Yuck.

My mom was also telling me about how when we were toddlers she used to sit us down at the table. She'd put a cookie (or something else she knew we'd want) on the table in front of us. Then if we tried to grab it she's swat us on the hand. This was how she taught us to sit quietly in church (and other places). She was so proud to have the only young children in the church who were well behaved enough to sit in the service. :Puke
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#25 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 06:13 PM
 
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Can someone give me a little overview of what Dobson is all about?

I once accidentally bought one of his books.... I was at the used bookstore and went a little crazy with the parenting books (his name didn't ring a bell at the time). I got home and read the back, and realized he was president of that foundation (forget the name) and immediately put it in the "trade" stack.

Well, first I looked at his chapter on homosexuality. :LOL That was good for a laugh! He has a great understanding of homosexuality.... not!!!!

Anyway, what is the basic gist of Dobson's method?
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#26 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 06:25 PM
 
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My skin crawls when I think of Ezzo. My mom had given me the Babywise book when my first son was born. I was obsessed to know when other people's babies were sleeping through the night. I never really followed his plan because I felt so bad letting my baby cry it out. I tried letting him cry it out on a few occassions and it felt so wrong. I was always embarrassed to tell people that he was still sleeping with me and nursing. Of course back then, I thought he had to quit nursing when he was 12 months and weaned him straight to a bottle at about 16 months.......LOL, oh the things I've learned. I was a young momma (19) and I spent my first year as a mom feeling inadequate because of not being able to put Ezzo's principles into practice.

Before having my 2nd child, I moved a couple of states away from my hometown and met a very crunchy momma who took me to an LLL meeting where I met all these women who mothered the same way I had been mothering (except I was hiding in the closet and they were open about it). I was so excited to know that it's ok to do those things such as cosleep, extended breastfeeding, antivax, etc. What a relief to find out that I wasn't a failure after all.

WHen I run into people who want to talk about Ezzo, I basically tell my story if I know them and if I don't know them well, I tell them about the media alert and the babies starving, etc.

Sarah
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#27 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 06:30 PM
 
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The dobson method basically centers on spanking. He does have creative parenting ideas mingled in with it occaisionally, which is why he is so popular. I was raised on his books - even read them as a kid so I could figure out what my parents were doing. I read the Pearls book while pregnant. It was during my research on breastfeeding that I learned about gentle discipline and I finally figured out why I have so much anger towards my parents - I always have. They were always calm and 'loving' when they spanked us, but I still remember seething with hate and being so angry that they just didn't talk to me about what I did wrong. I was the kind of kid that would have listened without the spanking. I guess it made me a great rule follower - grew up to run off and join a cult for a while! After getting free from all that (shortly after dd was born) my husband and I have questioned everything - that's when I re-examined my thoughts on punative parenting.

As far as how I answer others on all these topics, I give copies of an Ezzo warning brochure out to any friend I even hear of to be pregnant - try to get to them before the Ezzo-ites!

http://www.ezzo.info/trifoldbrochure.pdf
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#28 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 06:35 PM
 
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I encourage an actual conversation why they are chosing those authors. They might have already read or been trying some AP parenting and didn't feel it was working for them so are looking for other ideas...and perhaps you can find something that is more for them.
I was one of these parents and found it and still get upset when I am made to feel like a bad mother because I decided to try some ideas that worked for me but came from someone who doesn't support AP parenting.
We sometimes forget that there are extreames on both ends of the spectrum and sometimes people are just looking for new ideas and something that will work for their family, which don't have to include starving your baby or CIO or spanking just because you read a certain author.
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#29 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KristiMetz
Can someone give me a little overview of what Dobson is all about?
The thing that always comes to mind with Dobson....He says that pain is a purifier

He also compares parenting to training a dog, and describes how he beat his dachsund into submission (no, he didn't use the word "beat"....)
Have I got the correct here, or was that one of the other ones?



As for my acquaintance, after posting and talking to a few friends, I've decided to find a Christian article that is anti-ezzo, and also one that describes the feeding controversy, and offer these to the mama. I think I will just say "When you mentioned the book, I couldn't put my finger on exactly what it was, but I knew that I heard heard the name and some sort of controversy. Ijust had a bad feeling. So I looked it up, and found some articles you might want to look at."

Sound good?
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#30 of 110 Old 12-06-2004, 08:10 PM
 
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I dunno about Dobson - my parents listened to him RELIGIOUSLY and they never spanked.

Quote from my dad, though: "about 10 years ago he started getting weirder and weirder and then he went off the deep end, I wouldn't listen to a word he says now."

If CIO or Ezzo come up (rare, because almost everyone in my family and DH's family co-sleep, bf, etc), I just say that it seems so cruel and I could never do that. Since I have very well-behaved almost-5yo and 3yo kids, I have never been told that I am going to spoil them. When they were younger I would just say something like "we don't do that" and leave it at that. I feel more confident now that they're a little older and obviously are neither stuck on me all day nor spoiled rotten.

Mama, homeschooler, midwife. DD (13yo), DS (11yo), DD (8yo), DD (3yo), somebody new coming in November 2013.

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