"lack of discipline" thread now titled "OT Essays and Rants" - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 01-21-2005, 02:22 AM
 
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This is a very frustrating thread. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it is something like a very bad split end. Devi, I'm a nurse and I start IVs on people and sometimes when I go in with the needle I don't hit the vein I just run along side it. I'm making a very sharp, precise point, but I'm not in the vein, yk? I think you are making an excellent point and I agree that we should not call each other lazy or make snap judgements of others' parenting, particularly before walking a mile in their shoes. I also think eminer's post is beautifully put and quite insightful. I feel just as she said some do in regard to others' concrete examples. And here's the but: why are you trying to make this point? The OP has a very valid frustration and it is very obvious that it is a huge deal in the transition that a large number of parents are trying to make in the collective consciousness. I know that it is a huge bugaboo for me to be told spanking is a big no-no, but not to have the tools to use instead. And lilyka's post speaks loudly and clearly for itself (amazing post Sandra, I can't thank you enough for sharing that!) The road maps to get from point A to point B do not work for everyone. To some it comes naturally and they don't need a map. Some can read that map and it all falls into place, no roadblocks, no detours. For others there are lots of roadblocks and detours and you have to navigate your own course and maybe you get lost in the wilderness for awhile, not seeing the forest for the trees. Or maybe you'd be all right if you only had a good guide.

I'm sure there are "lazy" parents out there, but the ones who are trying to do gentle discipline and it is working out to be a lack of discipline, maybe they are trading in harsh for gentle and that is as far as they've gotten. Maybe they haven't figured out the discipline part, yet. There are still plenty of people that don't know that discipline does not equal punishment.

ETA: Whoops, I just read she is not coming back. Oh, well. Hang in there with the non-disciplinarians masquerading as gentle discipinarians. Someday they will get. Paradigm shifts take time!

SMC to Sophia, age 15, and Eleanor, age 9, and mother hen to too many nursing students to count!

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Old 01-21-2005, 07:22 AM
 
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Thanks, Sofia, for your post. I know the folks in my family think I am a lazy mom, and my mom said that I "don't discipline." But I think their way is lazier (hardcore strict, "put 'em in their place," beat 'em into submission style). Yeah, it is true that my sister's kids are "better behaved" than mine, but at what price? It breaks my heart to see her with her kids.

I have dealt/ am dealing with trying to do something totally different and having no experience or model for this type of parenting. I knew I would not spank my child. I didn't know I could raise him nonpunitively. I tried to give him a time out and the first time I attempted it I KNEW it wasn't right. So I did decide to not use punishments, but I was pumping out the praise, and now I see that I need to avoid the rewards as well. I am learning all the time. My little guy is incredibly spirited and highly sensitive as well, I strongly crave harmony, and do not want to fight.... so I do probably err on the permissive side sometimes. If he wants to eat junk, I let him. That said, I would NEVER allow him to hurt any living thing. It may can be considered punishment, but when he is using some toy or object to beat on a plant or our dog, I take it away. If he hit or abused another child I would absolutely intervene. (It is all about teaching him to be gentle, too!) If he is doing something that could cause him bodily harm, I prevent him. In public, if he is doing something that is totally socially unacceptable, I prevent that as well. I give him much more leeway than my mother would like, as he is little and I think little kids should be given more leeway socially. But I stop him from "double dipping" his chips at a party, running around the restaurant, etc.
But as far as naps, eating, etc, are concerned, I do trust him to make his own decisions. He overindulged in icecream, eating a whole half gallon in a day. I told him that he might not want to do it, that he might get a stomachache, he decided he really did want another bowl anyway. He didn't get a stomachache, but he hasn't asked for ice cream in a really long time.
I guess I am going on and on defending myself, and it is unnecessary. But this is something I deal with. I want to raise my child well and because I am coming from a background that was the antithesis of gd, I may sometimes shift to the opposite extreme. I have a really hard time being firm or enforcing anything unless he could get hurt or hurt someone else. My folks always dictated everything to me; I was never allowed any freedom at all, even over my thoughts and emotions (well, I guess I was free to have my thoughts, but they were ridiculed and I was forced to suppress my emotions), and so I guess I do want to give him the gift of freedom as much as I possibly can.
Sorry to go on and on, but yeah, here's my vote for cutting a mama some slack; better she should be a little permissive than punitive and controlling!
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Old 01-21-2005, 12:06 PM
 
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I am surprised by the comments that posters "ran with the nap-thing"....cause I went back and checked the op, and non-napping was the only major example given of "lack of discipline". Seemed like the point of the op was to judge a mama who didn't "make" (not sure how to do that???) her child nap, and many of us have lived a different pov (and have felt the sting of that judgment), and understand it is not due to lack of discipline. But I am just repeating myself, so, whatever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofiamomma
The road maps to get from point A to point B do work for everyone. To some it comes naturally and they don't need a map. Some can read that map and it all falls into place, no roadblocks, no detours. For others there are lots of roadblocks and detours and you have to navigate your own course and maybe you get lost in the wilderness for awhile, not seeing the forest for the trees. Or maybe you'd be all right if you only had a good guide.
I am *very* interested in this paragraph, especially the sentence in bold. I'm not sure I agree, but I am wondering if that is because I don't really understand what you are saying, lol, or if it is because I have actually had a very different experience from what you are saying. In some areas (sleep being a big one), the "road maps" (as I am imagining them to be) would never have "worked". Dd was unable to travel that road. She needed help. Not a guide, not a map, but help that changed her basic neurological responses--so that she *could* travel the road.

And I've had similar experience with other behaviors with dd: rage being the biggest. All the great "gd" in the world could not get her an inch further down that road (nor all the punishments in the world, I am sure). And, as a prev poster said, kids like mine can make good parents "look bad", because it is so obvious to the outside observer how the problem could/should be "fixed" thru firm discipline .
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Old 01-21-2005, 03:48 PM
 
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No, no, you understand me perfectly and our experiences are very similar. My older dd has been a challenge and that's an understatement. The problem is actually a glaring typo that I did not notice until this morning! I've added the critical word *not* to that sentence and it now makes sense! Sorry!!!

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Old 01-21-2005, 04:07 PM
 
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Candiland I agree with you totally.

Lilyka, I have a friend like you were with Lily until you changed. She never changed. The kid is almost seven and only in the past year or so has become a nice child, and it was all due to lack of sleep. Her parents either didn't recognize, or refused to recognize, her need for sleep, and wouldn't encourage it. So they had a horrible horrible child. The mom even admits now that the child was awful, but she won't admit it was lack of sleep. And they didn't have a second one because of how the first one was, but that was the child of course, not the parenting.
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Old 01-21-2005, 04:35 PM
 
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Oh, sofiamomma, that makes *so* much more sense! LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishmommy
The mom even admits now that the child was awful, but she won't admit it was lack of sleep. And they didn't have a second one because of how the first one was, but that was the child of course, not the parenting.
I am assuming (from the general post) that you mean the last sentence to be sarcastic, and you believe that it was the parenting, not the child.

I readily admit that my dd has been a holy terror during some phases, and lack of sleep was a huge contributor. But, it was not, not, NOT!!! (and, yes, I am yelling ) my parenting that caused the lack of sleep. It. was. the. child. I don't know about your friend's situation; I only know my own and my own child. But I do know that many people in my own life (parents, friends, people online--but not here) believed (before her diagnosis and treatment for SID) that her sleep issues were caused by my parenting. Guess what? They were wrong.

And, anyway, why must she admit that it was the sleep issues? What does it change for her to admit that to you or anyone else? It is the past, and I'm sure if she now thinks she made mistakes, she is probably feeling guilt and does not want to broadcast it to the world.

And, lastly, the child (now at 7) is a nice, happy child. Why aren't we praising this mama for developing a nice, happy child from a miserable small child? Surely the mama did *something* right?

I am so bothered by this thread complaining about other struggling mamas (you think these mamas are enjoying their miserable kids?). Other mamas who are doing their best, but doing it "wrong".
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Old 01-21-2005, 04:38 PM
 
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Here is what I think:

I think that there are probably some mama's that have posted on this thread that have been called lazy IRL (this is coming outta my a**, so bear with me) and are sensitive to this subject. That by either letting their child do what they want or need to do, or possibly unschooling, they are getting bad comments IRL. Which I know would be awful. So coming to these boards that are supposed to support them, they don't feel supported.

Any type of parenting is hard. Every decission as a parent is a hard one. I undertand. I am sure that we all understand. Attachment Parenting is HARD! We are trying to parent without our village.

I truly think that the OP is talking about parents who just don't care. They see doing nothing as something. Can any of you honestly say that if your son or daughter were hitting someone, you would say "let them work it out"? I wouldn't! I wouldn't stop my child from hitting or being hit. That is my job.

Sugar makes my children wild. So they don't get it often. I am not saying that families who let their children eat whatever they want, whenever they want are wrong. One of my best friends unschools. It isn't the right fit for my family, but it sure works for hers. Her son doesn't get crazy from sugar. My girls do. So I limit their sugar intake. No, that doesn't make either one of us better then the other. But both of us would take the "bag of sugar" away if they were sitting down on the floor eating scoops of sugar for ten minutes. It isn't healthy.

I had a friend who wasn't a good mother. (or friend for that matter) Everyone here is trying to defend themselves, which is all well and good, but the fact of the matter is There are people who are not good parents! And yes, it probably isn't anyone here. The thing is, she didn't do ANYTHING and passed it off as GD. It was nothing. He ran wild. And I have three girls and know what wild is. He was just trying to get her attention. She had other issues, but couldn't even be bothered with him. If you say "no", generally we follow through, but if you don't follow through, they never learn...anyway, I am off track. And if you are a family that doesn't ever say no and it works for you, could you come and live in my house?

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Old 01-21-2005, 04:50 PM
 
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Yeah, I think some people think I'm a lazy parent. But I didn't think the OP was talking about me. Just because people who believe is harsh discipline might think gd is no discipline and we might take that personally due to personal experiences with feeling judged I don't think that is the point here.

A parent who believes in learning to be a better parent may be imperfect and even lazy but a parent who acts as if doing nothing is "nice" and really just ignores the need to learn as part of a self-development process is a different. And for that person to be sure they are justified because of gd and the idea of "respecting" a child but it's just a cop-out. Well, I think it does exist and that it is a shame.

I sympathize with anyone struggling on the path of parenting well because I am so very imperfect and so very lost at times. I don't sympathize with people who don't try and think they are "nice" because of it.

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Old 01-21-2005, 05:05 PM
 
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So there are lousy, neglectful parents, sure. Some might even call themselves gd, but I know exceeding few people irl who've even heard of gd, so that is beyond my experience.

I am just thinking that there are far more good gd parents struggling with behavior problems than there are neglectful parents calling themselves gd. I mean, who how many people have done the reading and discussing and research to decide on a gd approach and then just neglect their child due to laziness?? That just doesn't add up to me.

And, no, I've never been accused of laziness or neglect. Just incompetence, lol. Oh, and coddling, which would be the polar opposite of laziness and neglect, but equally bad, apparently
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Old 01-21-2005, 05:15 PM
 
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Sunnmama, yes I was being sarcastic. There are horrible children, but mostly they are like that because of the parenting, and this kid is definitely one of those.
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Old 01-21-2005, 06:03 PM
 
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I generally avoid this board because I don't feel I fit in with what most seem to think "gentle discipline" means and have had my comments drummed out. But I was intrigued by the title- I also know plenty of people who really don't use any discipline with their children and their kids are poor company, rude, loud, rough, greedy, and often overtired. There is a coop preschool here that seems to attract a lot of these folks. These are the parents that won't shush their children during a performance, and who won't scoop their kids up when it's time to go- they mill about pleading with a totally overstimulated little kid going bananas, even hitting and kicking their own parents!

I would call what I do "rhythmic discipline." This ties in with the sleep issue- a real rhythm to the day helps sleep problems tremendously, and in the Waldorf school where I taught, the kindergartens had a midmorning lie down on the rug all together, and if they went to aftercare the first thing they did at aftercare was lie down for forty minutes. And these kids who had all "given up" their naps slept. IMO naptime doesn't mean you have to sleep. You have to lie in your bed and rest for x amount of time whether you sleep or not- and if this rhythm is established usually they do sleep, because they need it. My inlaws are all telling me my new ds, who fights sleep, might be "just one of those children," but they compare that to my niece, who has all kinds of "diagnosed" disorders. To an outside view, she is chronically over-tired and under-disciplined. No, I do not walk in their shoes, and her behaviour problems may be due to other issues that no one can help. But a lot of her problems *are* due to poor parenting and lack of sleep. A learning disabled child can still be spoiled and overtired. One has nothing to do with the other. I wouldn't say anything about parents here- I haven't met you or your children and frankly I would never say anything that I wrote above to my SIL. Her child is her responsibility and she wouldn't agree with me anyway. It's just what I've observed. Their concept is she gets "stern reprimands" and pretty intense discipline, and my observation is she is colossally spoiled, and the inconsistency is what is making everything worse for her.

I think the idea of the OP wasn't to start a fight or judge others' choices- I have been labelled too permissive and too controlling and overprotective and laissez-faire -all by the same person, BTW- but I understand the irritation behind the OP's comments, seeing all too many of that type of family dynamic myself, on a regular basis.
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Old 01-21-2005, 06:47 PM
 
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I think that this is a great thread with good intentions and lots of great posts, story sharing, and information.
Not one of us wants to judge or criticize each other intentionally; I think that we all have to really truly understand that people make different choices from different reasons and pull knowledge from different sources and different parts of the world. We are all being the best mama's that we can be, our children love us for that. We do what we know/feel is best in our hearts, and for that, we could all be applausing each other.
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Old 01-21-2005, 07:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LizD
To an outside view, she is chronically over-tired and under-disciplined. No, I do not walk in their shoes, and her behaviour problems may be due to other issues that no one can help. But a lot of her problems *are* due to poor parenting and lack of sleep. A learning disabled child can still be spoiled and overtired. One has nothing to do with the other. .
I think that what many are missing here is the reality that sleep issues and special needs are intertwined. Yes, too little sleep will result in behavioral problems. Of course. But, special needs can often result in really, really tough sleep issues! Issues that can not be resolved just by laying with your child, or instituting a quiet time, or setting a schedule. Issues that it doesn't sound like many on this thread understand.
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Old 01-21-2005, 08:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama
I think that what many are missing here is the reality that sleep issues and special needs are intertwined. Yes, too little sleep will result in behavioral problems. Of course. But, special needs can often result in really, really tough sleep issues! Issues that can not be resolved just by laying with your child, or instituting a quiet time, or setting a schedule. Issues that it doesn't sound like many on this thread understand.
YES! I just wanted to second what sunnmama said here! Now I will : because as was just said, there are some here who do not understand.
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Old 01-21-2005, 08:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alliegad
I think that this is a great thread with good intentions and lots of great posts, story sharing, and information.
I just have to say that I find it hilareous when people say that they can't take it, are so saddened by it, are unsubscribing, and will not read any more posts, only to return again and again to intensify negativity.
...
Actually it's "hilarious" not "hilareous."

I find it HILARIOUS when one person attempts to insult another and can't spell their bs insult correctly. Further, I wasn't planning to return to the thread ... but a friend pointed me to your insulting post so I thought I should respond.

If you have an issue with ME in the future, send a private message, that's the purpose of having them available.

Further, if you think that: "we all have to really truly understand that people make different choices from (for) different reasons and pull knowledge from different sources and different parts of the world. We are all being the best mama's that we can be, our children love us for that. We do what we know/feel is best in our hearts, and for that, we could all be applausing (as you call it) each other ..." Then you and I agree.

...


Now if you all can refrain from discussing ME personally, you won't see my a*s here again. However, if I am discussed here, I MAY take the time to reply.


Adding, I am used to wrangling on a political discussion board, so I may come across as venomous, my sincere apologies if this is the case.

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Old 01-21-2005, 10:39 PM
 
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Some notes, and a mod request:

If I may distill, I belive the OP is feeling frustrated that what she perceives as permissive parenting might be labeled as "GD" or AP when we all here know that AP/GD parenting is an incredible amount of work. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

Others are feeling judged that their parenting (or any parenting) might be lableled 'permissive' or 'lazy' or otherwise inadequate when in fact, these parents are applying their best strategies to work with their special needs/high energy/totally typical kid. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.


If additional discussion is to ensue, please avoid personal attacks or this thread will be closed for violations of the user agreement. See "rules" link in the handy menu bar above.

Respectfully,
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Old 01-21-2005, 11:15 PM
 
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Well...

I wanted to come back and say a big THANK YOU to Sandra (lilyka) for her story. I come to MDC to get (or keep) a backbone when making parenting decisions, and stories like that about parents making hard choices help to keep me on the straight and narrow. I KNOW that my son is happier and better behaved when he is well slept and I KNOW that it is easier to shrug him off and say that he'll sleep when he's tired and I KNOW that it may or may not be possible to get him to take a nap. But at the end of the day, if I haven't been successful, I don't get bent out of shape at posts like this. I know I've done my best and that's OK. I honestly believe that the OP is about parents who don't make the effort (and justify it by calling it GD) and I don't understand why so many people here get so offended by posts that clearly are not an indictment of their parenting.
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Old 01-21-2005, 11:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunar forest
Now I will : because as was just said, there are some here who do not understand.
That is good advice, lunar
I'm out :
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Old 01-21-2005, 11:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama
But, special needs can often result in really, really tough sleep issues! Issues that can not be resolved just by laying with your child, or instituting a quiet time, or setting a schedule.
I appreciate this comment, and I had not considered it fully from that point of view (as stated in my disclaimer). I *do* think most special needs children need a routine and sleep even more than those who aren't special needs, and I base that opionion on my experience with friends, family, and students, as well as my training in child development and Waldorf education. As I said, I don't intend to discuss or criticize another's position on this board, and I don't think that was the purpose of the thread. I think we all know the folks the OP was talking about, and that doesn't apply to anyone involved in this discussion. I don't think there's any need or place for hostility here. There's certainly none intended on my part. And I know from my own experience that I can slack off because it's easier, and it's not always what my children need in the short or the long run.

But one thing that crossed my mind when reading the OP is - "that's the problem with labels." You find folks here arguing about what constitutes CIO, or cosleeping, or even breastfeeding! That seems silly when we are all drawn to these boards for what we have in common. Anyway that's why I prefer not to call what I do "gentle discipline-" because for many it seems to mean what I would call "no discipline." Same thing with what folks call "taking children seriously-" I take my children very seriously and have taken a lot of flak for it, but for some that means not telling them to wear a coat or go to bed or eat their broccoli, whereas for me it means all those decisions are still mine in early childhood.

I would find further discussion of the OP and labels/discipline techniques very interesting, and would hate to have such a thread closed. Thanks to our moderator for stepping in.
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Old 01-22-2005, 02:32 AM
 
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i totally understand candiland's OP/rant

although i am a little concerned about posting on this thread, as i can not spell or type worth a damn,
but i am going to bc this is soemthing i wonder about as i watch other kids and mommas at the park

one example of gd being used to cover a lack of parenting is this:
i used to work at a food co-op that had a lot of "alternative type people"
as shoppers
and one day a 5 ish year old boy was playing with the bulk coffe dispensers and opened them up and let some beans out (like 1/2 a cup) the mom looked and said nothing. trying to silently assert my authority i immediatly walked over and cleaned the mess up while he was still standing there (mother still says nothing)
then the little boy opens it again and spill ALOT of beans (like $8 worth of beans) and i say to the mom as i am cleaning it up, "i am sorry mam, but i am going to have to ask you to prevent your child from touching any more of our merchandise."
she flipped out
she acted like i new nothing about the "spirit of a child" and that he was just "curious bc he was smart" and "wanted to explore his environment"

blah blah
he smiled the whole time when his mom was not looking and looked crushed everytime she looked

she never used the term GD but i could tell by her phrases that was waht she was trying to do/not do

instead (and i am sure for many other reasons) she had a monster who was lookign for attention

and to lilyka, i could have written your post
i too was into letting dd eat and sleep totally up to her own clock etc (and for a new new born baby it was ok)
but as she got older she was desperate for a routine/schedule....and i missed her cues b/c i AM NOT a schedule person (her and dh ARE totally)
it took a while for me to figure out waht i was not doing right and why (selfish on my part)
and how to listen to her needs cues for scheduleing her days/nights

i now have a 16month old who pretty much has/does on her own when i provide her with the space to do it:
wake up at the same time each morning, eat the same breakfast, follow a simular pattern for each morning, nap at the same time (on the DOT) and then continue on in this manner til bed
she is 98% plesant now
all smiles and joy and enjoying her world

all i wonder is what happens when our next dc is born and has my personality of free spirit...i can already see the clashing of daily needs that could take place....sigh
am i off topic or what?
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Old 01-22-2005, 02:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by moma justice

instead (and i am sure for many other reasons) she had a monster who was lookign for attention
When I read a child described as monster, I feel uncomfortable. I request that you speak about the child's behavior and avoid negative labels.
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Old 01-22-2005, 11:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pamelamama
Some notes, and a mod request:

If I may distill, I belive the OP is feeling frustrated that what she perceives as permissive parenting might be labeled as "GD" or AP when we all here know that AP/GD parenting is an incredible amount of work. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

Others are feeling judged that their parenting (or any parenting) might be lableled 'permissive' or 'lazy' or otherwise inadequate when in fact, these parents are applying their best strategies to work with their special needs/high energy/totally typical kid. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.
Just wanted to add that I really appreciated these comments, Pamela.
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
 
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sunnmama, Devi..... YES, you are being talked about, so please come back!... I really try hard to not judge people's situations here. I don't know any of you from Adam. I'm sure that if I tried as hard as sunnmama tried to get my kids to nap and it absolutely wasn't working, as seems to be the case, I'd let it go, too. It's obvious that the majority of parents DO TRY VERY HARD to be the best parents they can be. It's the hardest job in the world (OMG, my dd was born screaming and never stopped! Never quick to smile, laugh, and is still incredibly intense at 5 and freaks out over EVERYTHING like people are stabbing her with knives... and YES, I know without a doubt people are judging me and thinking that I'm raising a spoiled little brat... it seems like "spirited child" is a weak description, to say the least )....

BUT, just as we could agree that spanking isn't necessarily the best parenting choice, neither is allowing a child to do anything they want because mom or dad just don't want to deal with it. I don't get the feeling that ANY parent here is like that... why else would we all be here day in and day out trying to become better people, better citizens, better mommies, daddies, partners, etc. etc??

I shouldn't have used words such as "lazy" or "neglectful" (I don't think I used "neglectful", but I'm not gonna search thru 5 pages right now ). I work very hard to NOT judge anyone and this past week has been a major regression for me.

I guess this hits a sore note with me because, like lilyka, I started out confusing gentle discipline with "let them do whatever they want." Luckily (ha, ironically), I met this other person who "parented" the same way, but her dd was physically abusive every five minutes when we'd get together, and she did nothing about it.

THIS MADE ME THINK. Hmmm, her child has no boundaries and is physically hurting people. My child has no real boundaries and is a screaming, yelling, whining banshee! So really, this relationship with said woman was actually a mirror, and in this mirror was reflected everything I needed to change about myself.

I think some people fear discipline. We don't live in a world of unconditional love. Three strikes and you're out. I, like every other mother here, just want my kids to grow up healthy and happy and still love their mama as much as I love them. But I'm coming to realize that they're not gonna hate me because I'm firm with them. I was raised very permissively by my grandparents, and I'm still dealing with the fallout at 26 years old. I expect to get what I want when I want it, and the real world doesn't work that way. I expect this plays a large part in my bipolar and depressive tendencies. My reality simply isn't the reality we live in.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to come and patch things up with all of you.
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Old 01-22-2005, 01:27 PM
 
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Don't know why I'm bothering, because this thread is making ME cranky too...but...

I know plenty of lazy parents who let their children behave inappropriately but NONE of them call it gentle discipline, not out loud, anyway. Maybe they tell themselves they are letting the kids be kids and choosing their battles, who knows.

I do feel quite strongly that it is necessary to teach children what is appropriate in the larger world outside their home, and what I see happening a lot is parents whose rules INSIDE the home set their kids up for trouble when they venture OUTSIDE. So the kid who can stick his dirty hands inside the bowl of food at his own house is not going to get the same relaxed reception when he comes to my July 4th barbecue and does the same thing. The kid who is allowed to jump off the couch at her home really needs to know that she can't do this at Grandma's or a friend's house.

So I think that often, when parents decide that something is okay with THEM - and they have every right to decide what is right in their own home as long as it is not hurting anyone - they need to consider the fact that it is not easy for young children to chnage their behavior when the rules outside are so different. So they should ask themselves, if they let their kid do this particular thing, how hard will it be to teach their child that it is only okay in certain specific environments and not others? I know my own daughter does much better with set limits. I probably don't really care if she jumps off the couch in my house, but I choose not to allow it because I don't want her thinking she can do this everywhere she goes. Make sense? I don't think disallowing jumping off the couch is stifling her creativity in any way! I think it is truly doing a child a disservice if you allow a whole lot of behavior that is going to get them "into trouble" outside their homes. It's really not fair to them - imagine how confused they must be when they get negative reactions all the time to things they thought were fine.

Of course, there are the parents who allow all sorts of things in their own homes and it NEVER OCCURS TO THEM that other people don't find this acceptable. That drives me CRAZY and I just don't get how someone can bring their kid to my house and think I'm going to find it adorable when he starts pulling books off my shelf and throwing them around. That's just inconsiderate.

Okay, I bothered...:LOL
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Old 01-22-2005, 02:46 PM
 
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moma justice, don't worry about spelling, it is ideas, thoughts and experiences most of us are interested in, so post away! If I were working in a store and someone's child spilled $10 worth of coffee beans, I'd be asking them to not only control the child, but to pay for the spilled beans! I think that example is a prime example of what candiland is talking about. You make a safe environment for a baby/toddler to explore, not allow a *five* year old to trash the merchandise at a store in the name of exploration! Sheesh!!

Lunamom, I think kids can tolerate a certain amount of difference in expectations from place to place, but I do agree that it is important to teach them that the outside world may expect something different than you do. I have a friend who does not allow her children to stand on chairs and she readily admits she has no rational reason for that, but that is the rule. My dd used to look a little confused when she wasn't allowed to do that there, but she quickly adapted. Same with going back and forth between mine and my mom's house.

SMC to Sophia, age 15, and Eleanor, age 9, and mother hen to too many nursing students to count!

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Old 01-22-2005, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LunaMom
Of course, there are the parents who allow all sorts of things in their own homes and it NEVER OCCURS TO THEM that other people don't find this acceptable. That drives me CRAZY and I just don't get how someone can bring their kid to my house and think I'm going to find it adorable when he starts pulling books off my shelf and throwing them around. That's just inconsiderate.
Now *this* I can relate to
I think it is true that people have different comfort levels with noise, mess, activity, etc.....and I have a friend whose comfort level is significantly higher than mine. So, when I am around her child, sometimes I have to set my own limits, lol. And I think that is ok to tell the child directly "The books must stay on the shelf". It is just information, really.

As an extreme (but interesting) example, dd and I were stranded for 11 hours in an airport earlier this month, and we spent lots and lots of time in the play area. There was one child there who screamed *everything*. She had no "indoor voice" at all, lol. I mean, she would stand right next to my head and scream at me--in a happy voice. Turns out, when she spoke to her mother, she signed . Her mother is deaf, and as such, has a *very* high tolerance for screaming, lol. So this child had not yet learned the concept of an "indoor voice". Ok, that is an extreme example, but if mess does not bother mom--then she won't spend a lot of time changing the behavior, kwim?

Candiland--
And, as I said in my first post, I *do* agree with the idea of this thread. Defending children who dump coffee in the grocery store is ridiculous imo, as would be insisting that your child should be able to dump books in another person's home. Some other things I just see as very, very grey and complex issues (sleep, tantrums)--and IME (personally and from observing friends and their children) the work being done to address the issue is not always obvious--and sometimes not even accepted if it has been explained.
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Old 01-22-2005, 05:27 PM
 
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Just wanted to let you all know that I am sorry if I insulted anyone's intelligence by previously posting with spelling errors. I was not under the impression that we all had to be excellent (or perfect, or actually, even near perfect) with grammar or spelling, so seriously- if my post bothered anyone due to what I spelled wrong, I apologize. I guess when I post, I just try to get ideas and thoughts through without worrying much about those who want to nitpick postings apart for such grammatical errors. I will know better from now on. If it bothered anyone for ~other~ reasons, I apologize for that as well.
I was trying to post a light-hearted thread meant to be uplifting, but I guess I failed at that.
Sorry. You guys for the most part are so supportive of each other, and I really admire that. I agree with much of what I am reading.

Sunmamma and Lunamama, I agree with you guys on the whole thought that different people have different comfort levels on how to raise/direct/redirect their children. I do often redirect my son, when we are at other houses or out, because I know that other people would not respect the way that I usually just let him explore and do as he wishes. Given, he explores and does as he wishes in the comforts (and within the boundaries) of our own home, so it is safer and more... comfortable there!
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Old 01-22-2005, 06:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by candiland
sunnmama, Devi..... YES, you are being talked about, so please come back!... I really try hard to not judge people's situations here. I don't know any of you from Adam. I'm sure that if I tried as hard as sunnmama tried to get my kids to nap and it absolutely wasn't working, as seems to be the case, I'd let it go, too. It's obvious that the majority of parents DO TRY VERY HARD to be the best parents they can be. It's the hardest job in the world (OMG, my dd was born screaming and never stopped! Never quick to smile, laugh, and is still incredibly intense at 5 and freaks out over EVERYTHING like people are stabbing her with knives... and YES, I know without a doubt people are judging me and thinking that I'm raising a spoiled little brat... it seems like "spirited child" is a weak description, to say the least )....

BUT, just as we could agree that spanking isn't necessarily the best parenting choice, neither is allowing a child to do anything they want because mom or dad just don't want to deal with it. I don't get the feeling that ANY parent here is like that... why else would we all be here day in and day out trying to become better people, better citizens, better mommies, daddies, partners, etc. etc??

I shouldn't have used words such as "lazy" or "neglectful" (I don't think I used "neglectful", but I'm not gonna search thru 5 pages right now ). I work very hard to NOT judge anyone and this past week has been a major regression for me.

I guess this hits a sore note with me because, like lilyka, I started out confusing gentle discipline with "let them do whatever they want." Luckily (ha, ironically), I met this other person who "parented" the same way, but her dd was physically abusive every five minutes when we'd get together, and she did nothing about it.

THIS MADE ME THINK. Hmmm, her child has no boundaries and is physically hurting people. My child has no real boundaries and is a screaming, yelling, whining banshee! So really, this relationship with said woman was actually a mirror, and in this mirror was reflected everything I needed to change about myself.

I think some people fear discipline. We don't live in a world of unconditional love. Three strikes and you're out. I, like every other mother here, just want my kids to grow up healthy and happy and still love their mama as much as I love them. But I'm coming to realize that they're not gonna hate me because I'm firm with them. I was raised very permissively by my grandparents, and I'm still dealing with the fallout at 26 years old. I expect to get what I want when I want it, and the real world doesn't work that way. I expect this plays a large part in my bipolar and depressive tendencies. My reality simply isn't the reality we live in.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to come and patch things up with all of you.


Very interesting post. I returned as per your invitation Candiland. In the end, I feel that this thread has opened a necessary discussion and I thank you for starting the conversation.

My apologies for being defensive. And, for the record - I'm not the best at spelling either. : I also invite anyone to skip over this long post because I am certain much of what I say is totally unnecessary.

First I'd like to offer food for thought on your situation growing up. I am pretty certain that your bipolar issues are NOT be caused by your GP's parenting style, but I do know that Bi-Polar kids are VERY explosive and it's best not to set them off if you can help it. The word no can send them into a frenzy. Perhaps your Grand Parents were doing what was best for you? I read a book called The Explosive Child and it basically encourages parents lighten up on some of these kids. Again, just food for thought? I don't know your situation specifically but wanted to offer some input.

Before I talk about myself I'd like to begin by describing my situation. I was led to AP through my daughter. I was doing AP things before I even knew what AP was.

I remember calling LLL and asking for help saying "I don't know what to do, my child is one and I have to wean her now." The person at the other end reassured me that I should burn the book where I got this bad advice LOL, and that I did not have to wean my daughter because she was one. She then recommended Dr. Sears. I didn't rush out and buy his book, but picked it up several months later at a half priced book store. My daughter was almost 2 when I finally purchased the "Baby Book." I cried when I opened it and saw our side car sleeping arrangement on page xx. I could not believe that what I'd been doing was "right" in the eyes of some as we took such scorn. I finally felt liberated and allowed to follow my instinct. I was vindicated!

For the record, my daughter is very spirited and had colic, needed nursing very much, needed to co-sleep and still does, weaned naturally at almost 5 years old. She's six now, still spirited, still has needs that differ from many other children. Because my dd is so spirited, sensitive my parenting style is often "blamed" for her temperament. I am considered permissive because my dd nursed until she was 5, is still co-sleeping and I don't spank. While no one here would question these things, the point is some do.

From the time I discovered Sears, I have felt that it's OK to follow my instincts and go against the grain. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I continually examine my beliefs and feel that overall I'm doing the right thing. And, I vow to constantly educate myself on parenting and make adjustments as needed. Unfortunately my instincts don't cover all that I need to know.

A bit of perspective regarding my rant: When I hear certain words to describe parents it sets me off, as I'm sure you can tell. Those words happen to have been used here.

Here is a quick Q and A with James Dobson (whom I despise personally)

http://www.troubledwith.com/stellent...0and%20Answers

If you look that over you will find a similar argument to the one presented here. Not that Moms here are coming from the same place as Mr. Dobson, but I find the entire conversation reminiscent of conversations and struggles I've had with the Dobson fans in my life.

Frankly, I felt many of the examples given here may be beyond the parents "healthy control." I do think that parents should communicate reasonable expectations to their child, teaching them to respect people and property. But we may all have different methods of teaching these things? Also as Sunmama said, we all have different levels of tolerance. So, I generally try to give parents the benefit of the doubt. Though, I admit I'm not always successful on that front. I also agree with Sunmama that in ones home it's ok to set limits if the parents are not doing so. I would also feel comfortable (saying please don't hit) if a child hit mine, and the parent didn't act.

Additionally we all bring our own baggage into our parenting, like it or not. The only thing one can do is try to be aware and make adjustments. At the risk of being too personal, some of my baggage includes: My sister and I being battered, we were very well behaved as a result. Somtimes I feel there is a trade off. My nephews get the "wooden spoon" or "belt" - and they too are very well behaved. Some of my other nephews, nieces also get spanked ... again little angels.

I chose to focus on the long term when it comes to parenting my daughter. I do not need to have a "well behaved" child at all times. It's not my ultimate goal. My goal is to have a well adjusted adult. Not that one has to choose between the two, but at times I think people choose well behaved over all else. I will say we have paid a price for this philosophy in that I have to be around people who are very understanding. And, that limits our ability to do things because on the one hand, I get embarrassed at times, but on the other I feel I'm right and the rest of the country is largely wrong. :LOL

Overall, I have a pretty simple parenting philosophy. I don't believe in unnecessarily intruding on my child’s person *without good reason, and I try not to sweat the small stuff. For example, I would never hold my dd down to brush her teeth, or force her to comb her hair or eat anything in particular. I do sing songs when I comb her hair, as she allows me to do it then. I also encourage eating (healthy foods) when were heading somewhere where we won't be able eat for a while. But, I feel very strongly that it's a slippery slope when parents control too much of their child’s body. If I am controlling every aspect of their person, I feel they are more pliable to a person whose intentions might not be as good, KWIM?

Also, I am a mom who allows her daughter to jump on the couch, but I've always explained that this is ok at home and not elsewhere. She has not had an issue with that and has NEVER done so in another persons home. But, I trust that attached parents know if their child will have a hard time adjusting.

I also think at times we expect too much from our kids? I think that expecting a child not to be attracted to putting their hands in coffee beans when the beans are at their eye level is unrealistic. In fact, my child has been attracted to said beans at our local coffee house. When this happened last year, I redirected her, and told her that the beans were for looking at instead of touching and showed her what the beans looked like roasted etc ... But if I was with a group of friends, I might not realize she is playing in the beans right away, KWIM? I remember leaving the coffee shop questioning the wisdom of putting the darn beans out in such a manner in the first place. Heck, I wanted to play in them myself!

Anyhow, in a nutshell, my child’s feelings are always valid, and always considered. That doesn't mean she always gets the last say, nor does it mean that I don't constantly question my parenting.

I hope that I was able to convey some of my thoughts/perspective.

Thanks for listening, and again my apologies for stating my opinion in a rude manner previously ... AND I'M SORRY FOR THE LONG WINDED POST ... YIKES!
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Old 01-22-2005, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alliegad
Just wanted to let you all know that I am sorry if I insulted anyone's intelligence by previously posting with spelling errors. I was not under the impression that we all had to be excellent (or perfect, or actually, even near perfect) with grammar or spelling, so seriously- if my post bothered anyone due to what I spelled wrong, I apologize. I guess when I post, I just try to get ideas and thoughts through without worrying much about those who want to nitpick postings apart for such grammatical errors. I will know better from now on. If it bothered anyone for ~other~ reasons, I apologize for that as well.
Your spelling really didn't bother me. But I will admit the content of your post did. My apologies for addressing your spelling vs. the context of your post about me.

Your apology is accepted. Peace
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Old 01-22-2005, 06:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by LunaMom

I do feel quite strongly that it is necessary to teach children what is appropriate in the larger world outside their home, and what I see happening a lot is parents whose rules INSIDE the home set their kids up for trouble when they venture OUTSIDE. So the kid who can stick his dirty hands inside the bowl of food at his own house is not going to get the same relaxed reception when he comes to my July 4th barbecue and does the same thing. The kid who is allowed to jump off the couch at her home really needs to know that she can't do this at Grandma's or a friend's house.

So I think that often, when parents decide that something is okay with THEM - and they have every right to decide what is right in their own home as long as it is not hurting anyone - they need to consider the fact that it is not easy for young children to chnage their behavior when the rules outside are so different. So they should ask themselves, if they let their kid do this particular thing, how hard will it be to teach their child that it is only okay in certain specific environments and not others? I know my own daughter does much better with set limits. I probably don't really care if she jumps off the couch in my house, but I choose not to allow it because I don't want her thinking she can do this everywhere she goes. Make sense? I don't think disallowing jumping off the couch is stifling her creativity in any way! I think it is truly doing a child a disservice if you allow a whole lot of behavior that is going to get them "into trouble" outside their homes. It's really not fair to them - imagine how confused they must be when they get negative reactions all the time to things they thought were fine.
This is a tiny bit off topic from the OP, but I do think children have the capacity to know what behavior is appropriate in certain situations and what isn't. That's why I teach my kids that we whisper in the library at all times. We don't whisper at home at all times. But in the library, we use our "library voice". I think children are very perceptive. When my parents come to visit, they use their potties in the bathroom. I've never told them that they have to, but my parents make comments that make my kids feel bad if they bring their potties out and take a dump in front of the TV Like, "EWWWWW that stinks." or "Gross!" I feel bad too and have asked them not to make those comments. But the children solved it by just not doing it when they are around. Children also learn if their mom and dad have differing styles of discipline and learn how to respond appropriately as well.
BTW, I let my kids jump on the couch. In my home, only.
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