"To Train Up a Child"... - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 02:43 AM
 
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I know, but it still hurts!
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#122 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 02:51 AM
 
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bamamom,

I couldn't tell from your post if you still believe in God/Jesus. But if you do, remember that He loves you and will forgive you and help you to be gentle now. For as much as you'll beat yourself up, God won't hold it against you. Once you repent for something, it's gone. And there are lots of good Christian books out there that don't recommend hurting your child. You have lots of resources available to you.

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14yo ds   11yo dd  9yo ds and 7yo ds and 2yo ds  
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#123 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 02:55 AM
 
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Yes I still beleive in God and Jesus, and I'm still a Christian. I know that God forgives and forgets forever, it's just hard to reconcile within myself when such a small person is involved.
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#124 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 02:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bamamom
Okay, I'm chiming in. I actually know lots of folks who subscribe to the Pearls, some loosely and some strictly. I was pretty much raised this way. But coming here and listening to all you mommas talk and flame has caused me to think. think think think, even at night when I should be sleeping. Is it possible I've been lied to all these years? That my kids can actually grow up to be sane caring non criminals if they aren't disciplined/spanked??? I was brought up fundamental Christian and spanking was the only way to go. If you didn't, then you were up a creek as far as your kids were concerned. And then I get here and all these great caring Christian mommas are saying "HEY! Whoa, stop and think. Would Jesus hit a child?? Would Jesus hurt someone??" And the answer is no. Do you know how hard it is to realize this?? I'm nearly crying as I write this, because I feel so duped. I've made mistakes with my baby girl, and she's only 17 months old. Yes we've swatted, no we've never left a mark on her. And we did it because we thought it was the only way to raise her up. This kills me. I'm glad she's not any older, because she won't remember these times. Please keep posting and rest assured that even if I don't post very often, I'm reading and watching.
I am tearing up just reading your post. You are so humble and I know that is a hard thing when you have been taught one way is right all this time...I'm speaking from experience.: Your little one is so lucky to have a mama like you who cares more about learning and sharing with other mamas than about being right.

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#125 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 03:00 AM
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Do you know how hard it is to realize this?? I'm nearly crying as I write this, because I feel so duped.
I went through this as well, it is a mourning of sorts--luckily I went through it before I got pregnant....I was raised in a VERY um, let's say "pro-spanking" family and it was hard when I realized that my parents REALLY messed up in that department. It was hard realizing that they really damaged me in so many ways, while at the same time genuinely loving me and wanting the best for me! It is really easy to just hate a horrible person, but it is SO much harder to take people who you KNOW love you, who you KNOW wanted the best for you, who you KNOW are decent people, but admit to yourself that they made major mistakes---it is hard to reconcille (sp) that within yourself, but the only way I knew that I wouldn't repeat the mistakes of my parents is to first acknowledge that what they did was wrong, hurtful, damaging, and had lasting effects. Believe me, my Mother and I have had many discussions about this, and though I know it upsets her and she feels attacked (though I am not trying to)...it was important to me to let her know that she hurt me and that I thought what she did was wrong. We are having our first child in May (a daughter) and I am confident I will NEVER lay a hand on her---not because I don't think I will have the impulse ingrained in me from years of that being one of the only forms of "discipline" I recieved...but because I confronted it...I stared it in the face...I stopped defending my parents and stopped trying to validate or justify it away, and just accepted it for what it was. They hit me, it wasn't right...no matter what their reasons, pressures, justifications, it wasn't right. I still love them, am still close to my Mom (not to my Dad but for different reasons)....but it took me a long time to heal from their "discipline"---and believe me, they never left marks either so that is not even an issue. It is the marks that are left inside that hurt the most.

So while it saddens me that you are so upset, it is a good thing in a way, because it seems like you are finally acknowledging to yourself and about your parents the damaging effects that spanking has on children. Forgive your parents for hitting you, forgive yourself for hitting your child, but never forget the effects it can and does have...and here's to hoping you stay at MDC and really listen to and utilize the techniques of gentle discipline...and I am praying you never spank your child again...I truly believe it is the healthiest way to go, both for your child, for yourself and (imo) in the eyes of God.
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#126 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 04:26 AM
 
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(((bamamom)))

I wish I could reach through the screen and give you a hug
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#127 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mamahammer
I know this was a couple of pages back, but I had to respond re: the rod.

The rod was a tool for guidance used by sheperds. The rod was not a tool for punishment. If you recall in the 23rd Psalm, []Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.[/i] The rod was used by sheperds to guide sheep into the herd - to show them the way, to stop them from going into dangerous territory. It showed them the way to go - to be safe, to be with the herd, to be with their sheperd. The rod is a comfort - it is a tool used for discipline - teaching - not punishment. The rod would be akin to the rope at a mive theater than shows where to form a line. It shows you the proper way to go, but it does not dole out punishment for going against it. If the rod were a source of physical discipline, do you really believe David would have written it into his poetry as a comfort? No one who has been beaten with a belt would wax poetic about it's comfort. In fact, most who were beaten with a phyiscal object that was displayed as remindwer in their home speak of it being a constant source of fear - certainly not one of comfort.
I definitely see what you are saying. Honestly, I'm not very schooled on shepherding, so I had no idea! And, actually, I had always thought that David was referring to a rod of punishment, b/c I saw it as a "Thank God He cares enough to discipline me" type of thing. But I totally see what you are saying, and I thank you for explaining. Also, you referred to a beating with a belt, and a few other people keep bringing up beatings... even though I had grown up with occasional excessive spankings, I never thought of myself as having been beaten. I know that there are people who are abused, and beaten with a rod or belt or whatever, so I guess I never really felt too sorry for myself, seeing as I've never had a spanking that left a mark... KWIM? I am not trying to justify spanking by explaining this, but to let people know that I never thought that beating was ok to begin with. And thank you again for explaining the "rod" to me.
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#128 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LizD
Yes, someone I know was so terrorized by wood spoons she couldn't have them in the kitchen, much to her roomates' annoyance.

Since this isn't the place to debate the merits and demerits of physical discipline, what is the purpose of the continuing discussion? Would it be how to respond to people who use this sort of manual as a guide? How to show them alternatives? It seems we are floundering in defense of hitting vs GD or something about God protecting people or not.

Frankly I don't see what God or belief or lack of belief therein has to do with it. This is a gentle discipline forum, and while not everyone has to agree, I am having trouble following the conversation at this point. Should a thread about what the Bible says to Christians be in the Spirituality/Religious Studies forum?

Regarding extremity, plenty of people think not spanking is extreme on the side of over-permissiveness (like the authors of this dreadful book), and plenty think spanking or threatening to spank is extreme. I count myself among the latter.
I don't think it's just one discussion anymore... I think a few have started, and I understand your confusion. It wasn't really supposed to be a religious discussion, per se, but since the Pearls' base all thier materials on the Bible, it's inevitable.
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#129 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MomInFlux
:

I'm horrified by this line of thinking. If I had to choose between the parent who puts their child in daycare so that they can work and the parent who stays home and hits their child, I will chose the working parent EVERY time.
I am horrified by people who (and there are exceptions!) send their kids to daycare so they can have a nice house in an upscale neighborhood and buy their neglected children lots and lots of Elmo crap. Oh, how fun it is to see the joy on that baby's face for an hour or so each might before putting him to bed. Please.

The line of thinking, if you have been following from the beginning, is that my parents *rarely* spank, but they do believe it's ok. I've seen them do it, and it's never out of control or in anger. So I know that while they are not GDing, they are not abusing (or neglecting), either.
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#130 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by LizD
What on earth does not killing the baby have to do with gentle discipline?
That's what I'd like to know!
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#131 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
You still seem to be defending the Pearls, and this book. When will you let it go? What they are advocating has the very real potential to harm children. Period.

I don't think you will find one "mainstream" source that says this book is OK.
You think I'm still defending the Pearls, b/c I don't think that they could kill a baby? *sigh* I never said there was no potential to harm children. Good job on pointing out what we ALL knew already.



And what does mainstream have to do with anything? Are we on the same thread here?
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#132 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by our veggie baby
Hmmm, how far does that extend? Child molestation? Beatings? The Pearls ADVOCATE staying with a husband who has sexually molested his children.
***
I mean, yes, to a point people can do as they like with their children...but I'm sorry, if I know someone is being molested, or beat, or abused, I am going to do something about it...and if you want to sling scripture about it, I will toss this out:

Leviticus 5
1 " 'If a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify regarding something he has seen or learned about, he will be held responsible.
***
Do you see my point at all?
You have very good points. Personally, I think it's pretty sick that the Pearls say that about a molester... it is a prime example of why we shouldn't EVER take everything someone says as Gospel. Anyways, people that know even a bit of the Bible know that it is not a Biblical view...
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#133 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kchoffmann
Also itching to say, Kateana made a comment way back about how discilining one's child around having to do something s/he doesn't want to do is on par with a grown up leaving the workplace if s/he doesn't like a coworker. This comment misses the point. The goal, I would think, is for our children to be aware of and respectful of their feelings about someone, and then know how to be assertive with their feelings. A grown up can know how s/he feels about a coworker and make work manageable by being assertive and clear with his/her boundaries and feelings. We teach our children these things when we are teaching them about having relationships. Relationships are much more complex, I believe, than just one person is to be obeyed.
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, so please correct me if I'm wrong (I don't get the first sentence)... Are you saying that the kids/coworkers thing is comparing apples to oranges...? I guess I don't know what you're saying here at all, I'm sorry... I do think that they are very different situations, but I was using someione's example in a response to her.
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#134 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 06:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pammysue
Well, as I said in my post, to me GD (actually I prefer to not use the word "discipline" at all, I like "guidance" better) is about teaching. It is important to repeat the same lesson over and over becuase that is how learning is done. Following your train of thought, I should be able to say to a 18 mo. old "Johnny, this block is yellow" once and expect Johnny to have learned what a block is and what yellow is from that one explanation.
I see what you are saying, and that definitely has a place. But (and of course, we are going really of topic here) it seems like the difference between schooling and unschooling (which I prefer). But like I said, there is a place for the "schooling" approach.

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#135 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 06:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by our veggie baby
I completely agree (with the response)...I mean, I sure as heck haven't learned ANYTHING in my life---from driving to algebra to painting to guitar to even going to the bathroom on a toilet when I was around 2, having only been taught "once"....
I learned (sorry, retained) nothing my memorizing facts in a book, and being tested on it. But I learned a whole lot more by going to the museum and exploring things or seeing/experiencing things in a creative way, or learning lessons through real life, rather than hearing lectures and (when I was younger) reading stuff I had no interest in learning about...

So, did you learn these important things by hearing someone talk about them over and over, or by doing them yourself?
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#136 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 06:10 AM
 
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"The line of thinking, if you have been following from the beginning, is that my parents *rarely* spank, but they do believe it's ok. I've seen them do it, and it's never out of control or in anger. So I know that while they are not GDing, they are not abusing"

Hitting is abuse. Period. You GO TO JAIL for hitting a spouse or a stranger... so why is it EVER ok to hit a child ?

Tammy... who being a pagan mama was going to stay out of this...
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#137 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 06:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie
I don't believe we are ever "put" in the place of God in any way, even in the eyes of our children. We don't give them life...God does...God protects and provides for us if we allow him, and we if we are overflowing with gratitude and want to pass that love on to our children, then we will protect and provide for them because God has provided for us.
***
I have also tried as much to my abilility to study out any and all of the scriptures that refer to "spanking"..."rod"..."beating"...etc. There is so much hidden in there it is quite unbelievable.
***
The thing that I can't understand is how parents consistantly misjudge the developmental stage of babies and toddlers. A tiny bit of research and reading, or a quick conversation with any psychologist and you quickly learn that it is impossible for a 10 month old to comprehend...no throwing...no grabbing glasses...no hitting...no biting...even if they can understand, they do not have the ability to override their impulses to touch and grab. Not to mention these things are stages of learning that every child goes through. Throwing things off a high chair is a developmental stage, not a reason to switch or flick your 1 year old. The world is full of wonder, filled with things that are far too exciting for us to comprehend. :LOL Simply holding the telephone and pushing the buttoms can make a toddlers day. What's wrong with that?
With my ds, it seems the more he is able to explore and the more gentle and respectful we treat him, the more he wants to listen and be respectful to us.
I did not try to portray that we are like God, but that we have a relationship with our children that has many similarities to our relationship with our Heavenly Father.

I have no idea how to go about researching the topic in the original language, my resources are all in english. Do you have any links or useful tools to refer me to?

I understand what you are saying about developing, etc... but if they are learning by doing all of this, how is it that they are unable to learn *not* to do them (ex: throwing stuff, etc)? (And not necessarily by flicking, but maybe something else, IDK.) Most babies, at a young age, make throwing things a game, and I can see that, b/c they obviously think it's funny... YK? So it seems that they are much smarter than you may be giving them credit for...? Regardless, you have good points.
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#138 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 06:40 AM
 
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Babamom... I am so with you. It is really really wierd (for lack of a better word) to have to upheave an entire mindset like this... It really never occured to me before that good parenting wouldn't include spanking (and I know I'll hear a load for saying that). But, knowing what I do about Jesus, it also seems crazy to me that I've never thought of it before (that was what hit me so hard, too... why did I ever think it would be Christ-like to hit?)... I'm just glad to be exploring it now, too.

As for my parents (Dad and step-mom), I will never be angry or bitter at them for how they raised me, even if I raise my kids completely the opposite... I'm a pretty forgiving person, and I think it comes from having to deal with my mom and the whole abandonment issue, which I feel dwarfs the spanking thing (and maybe that's why I'm so anti-daycare?)... Anyways, I had to get over that and stop hating her, so if I can forgive her, why not my dad, YK?

I think your daughter will be so proud of you and love you so much more for being the godly mama you are...
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#139 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kateana
You think I'm still defending the Pearls, b/c I don't think that they could kill a baby? *sigh* I never said there was no potential to harm children. Good job on pointing out what we ALL knew already.



And what does mainstream have to do with anything? Are we on the same thread here?

First of all, the snarkiness really does nothing to help your point.

I'm going to try one more time to explain what I meant originally.

TTUAC used the way it is written is extreme, and damaging to a child's relationship with his or her parents, and his or her relationship with God. As written, with nothing added, it is abusive and , I believe, an affront to God and His lovingkindness.

The things this book suggest have the potential of severe abuse or death. The pushing the child in the pond and letting her almost drown to teach her not to go in the pond sticks out in my mind. How easy would it be for a parent not to make it in time. If you think there is absolutely no way someone following this book could kill a baby, that's your opinion. I would definitely disagree.

When a book is so harmful used just how it is written, I refuse to believe there are any redeeming qualities in that book.

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#140 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 03:11 PM
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I am also curious...you keep saying your parents never hit you out of control or anger---what did they hit you out of? I am serious. Please don't say love, because I do not see in any capacity how hurting someone physically (even if there was no mark) could be considered love in any shape of the word....

It is like I said above---

yeah, I could see me accidentally spilling chocolate soy milk all over the desk and computer (I am 27, I actually did this today lol)...and my husband slapping me one across the face out of "love" to "teach" me we shouldn't do that.
How is flicking or hitting a different part of the body ANY different?

I would like to know seriously, how that would be ANY different than spanking a child...other than I could have my husband arrested if he dared to do that...
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#141 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 03:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd
I know you are probably feeling like we are all ganging up on you, but surely you know there are many children, Christian and non-Christian alike, who are abducted and abused and worse every day? Did God not want to protect those chldren? Being Christian does not mean nothing bad will ever happen to you.

Being one of those children who was abused and worse everyday of her life for 17yrs I felt I should respond to that. Did God want me to be hurt...no Did he allow it? Yes. I don't know why. When I was in the thick of it I cursed God and Begged Him and Struck Bargains with him I wanted to be out and to be free. Now that I'm looking back on my childhood I can see God's hand in my life. It's hard to explain but he protected me from so much. He gave me strength to wake up each day. He gave me strength and peace to tell someone. We don't know what happens in families who have lost a child in this way. We don't know what happens to the child in his/her last moments. We don't know Gods workings. The world is a horrible place with Horrible people in it. I don't think that nit picking on a parenting style that many people ascribe to is an effective way to spend our time. Concentrate on raising your children to be caring loving compassionate children so they can raise caring loving compassionate children. Concentrate on helping others learn how to be caring loving compassionate people. You know from the birth of Christ until the birth of the Roman Catholic Church was over 3 centuries? We can't change the world in a generation. it takes time patience and persistance.

oh and by the way...the comment to "Burn it" seemed very violent to me...nothing like a mob of angry people burning books...reminds me of Nazi Germany using the content of libraries to fuel bon fires in the streets.

JMO
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#142 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 03:25 PM
 
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I just don't understand the logic that children "need" this kind of training. I was never hit, or even really "punished", as far as I remember--certainly no time-outs, and no reward system either. My parents just treated me like a human being--with respect, intellect, and understanding. Knowing that they respected me as an individual, I respected them--I rarely, if ever, "acted out"--no temper tantrums in stores, my parents could always take me to restaurants and I was very well behaved, etc. And, of course, I became a productive, upstanding citizen (went to Yale, married a nice Jewish boy from Long Island, currently working on a PhD and teaching...I'm hardly some out-of-control maniac who never learned about proper boundaries! ).

Why don't people understand that children are people, just smaller?
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#143 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 03:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kateana
Premarital sex is sex before marriage, and unless one of the two spouses breaks a vow to stay faithful, there should be no risk of STD. That was the missed point, I think. My best friend has not yet had sex, and she doesn't have to worry about an STD. If she marries a virgin, there will be zero risk unless someone cheats, which is also a violation of God's laws. So, the whole point is that, according to God's perfect plan, as written in the Bible, 2 people will only have sex with each other, without the worry of STDs creeping in mysteriously.
Yeah, but where on earth are you going to find two virgins? (This is an homage to '80's teen movies, not a serious question.)

I guess my point was that bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people.

However, there are some natural consquences (or risks) to actions and that is what we need to teach children.

But I don't think everything bad that happens to people is their own fault. and I do think there is danger in being too trusting- especially expecting other people, or even G-d, to protect you, rather than protecting yourslef.
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#144 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:02 PM
 
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AnnetteMarie,

Just have to say, I completely understand and agree with you. Thanks for being willing to stay in this crazy thread!
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#145 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:05 PM
 
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Oh good- I didn't think I was being all that unclear, but you never know!

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#146 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kateana
I am horrified by people who (and there are exceptions!) send their kids to daycare so they can have a nice house in an upscale neighborhood and buy their neglected children lots and lots of Elmo crap. Oh, how fun it is to see the joy on that baby's face for an hour or so each might before putting him to bed. Please.
What?!?!? I'm sorry, I want to be respectful here, but do you know anyone who has their children in day care? I don't have my kid in day care, for the record, but I feel very confident saying this is not why most have their children in day care. You've created quite an offensive stereotype there. I take offense, in particular, at your suggestion that working mothers are somehow bad parents in comparison to those who stay at home... More importantly, I'm interested in your "horror" about kids in day care -- there's much research suggesting day care is anything but harmful -- but then no similar kneejerk horror about hitting-- plenty of research suggesting hitting is quite damaging.

Also, in response to your response to me (I'm the one who tried to make a point about your comparison of grown ups in the workplace and children). I understand you were using an example to make a point to another poster. You suggested we need to make our children do what they don't want to because when they grow they will need to deal with things they don't like. I was saying, Sure they will. But teaching them to silently swallow their feelings about something is not terribly effective. Rather, the goal is to teach them to recognize and respect their feelings about their environment, and then have an appropriate way to deal with those feelings (such as being assertive, etc.)
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#147 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 05:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NYCVeg
Why don't people understand that children are people, just smaller?
Exactly, and in being smaller, are very much victims to bigger people hitting them.
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#148 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 09:29 PM
 
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I'm horrified by this line of thinking. If I had to choose between the parent who puts their child in daycare so that they can work and the parent who stays home and hits their child, I will chose the working parent EVERY time.
Precisely. Between being hit and being with someone else, I'll take someone else, thank you.

Midwife (CPM, LDM) and homeschooling mama to:
14yo ds   11yo dd  9yo ds and 7yo ds and 2yo ds  
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#149 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 10:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by our veggie baby
yeah, I could see me accidentally spilling chocolate soy milk all over the desk and computer (I am 27, I actually did this today lol)...and my husband slapping me one across the face out of "love" to "teach" me we shouldn't do that.
How is flicking or hitting a different part of the body ANY different?

I would like to know seriously, how that would be ANY different than spanking a child...other than I could have my husband arrested if he dared to do that...
THIS BEARS REPEATING

IF HITTING AN ADULT IS WRONG, WHY IS HITTING SOMEONE SMALLER AND WEAKER OK?

I"m sorry, but saying that reapeating yourself is tiring, and frustrating, thus making swatting ok, makes me ill. Hell, I"m an adult, and I have never learned anything by seeing/hearing/reading it once. Learning takes repitition. To be so impatient with an infant is sad, and makes me wonder what you think parenting entails? To parent is to teach. It is to explain to my child the whys of the world.
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#150 of 207 Old 02-15-2005, 11:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kateana
I learned (sorry, retained) nothing my memorizing facts in a book, and being tested on it. But I learned a whole lot more by going to the museum and exploring things or seeing/experiencing things in a creative way, or learning lessons through real life, rather than hearing lectures and (when I was younger) reading stuff I had no interest in learning about...

So, did you learn these important things by hearing someone talk about them over and over, or by doing them yourself?
You've really hit on a great point here. For me, this is one of the greatest things about the GD philosophy - that children learn by doing. They are allowed to explore, to make mistakes, to test things out, to learn, and to fail sometimes. I'm sure you know that a cornerstone of GD is natural consequences, in other words allowing children as much as possible to experience the results of their actions.

IMO, the Pearls are the direct opposite of this. Their philosophy of strict obedience does not encourage kids to explore the world on their own terms. If you get spanked for disobeying, all you learn is that X action gets you spanked. If you're always being told what to do, you never get to make your own mistakes or learn the lessons that go along with them.

I think parenting philosophies like the Pearls' create obedient children. I think parenting philosophies like GD create independent thinkers. IMO, independent thinking is a more valuable life skill, not just for the individual but for society. Different people have different goals.
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