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#61 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by captain optimism
I think there is a crucial difference between children learning that they can't have everything they want and learning to simulate total obedience, the same difference that I pointed to before between setting limits and humiliating children. The problem is that I haven't seen this television show and you have, so I might be fighting with a straw person a bit. I just don't like that whole naughty chair, naughty stair, naughty room schtick. My son is not a puppy.





In response to the excerpt above:
Captain Optimism, first let me thank you for a very enjoyable exchange of thoughts and ideas. I very much enjoy it.

Now, in the excerpt I've posted above, you say that there is a crucial difference in children learning that they can't have everything they want and simulating total obedience.

What I ask you to consider is how far apart those two extremes are, and how much nuance separates them. It's not a question of one or the other. Because a parent imposes limits and boundaries, limits and boundaries that the child does not want and would not choose, that does not automatically translate into a parenting style which demands total control and simulated obedience.

You say that you don't see how a naughty chair or a naughty room is anything but a humiliation, and that you don't see the child's motivation to avoid the 'punishment if it is not a punishment'.

First, I do not advocate 'punishment' as much as I advocate 'discipline'. Discipline entails creating an awareness of right and wrong, good and bad behaviors. This is awareness that to a large extent a child must learn, and it is the responsibility of the parent to create this awareness in a child. The purpose of the naughty chair is to identify that a BEHAVIOR is naughty and that the behavior has consequences that the child doesn't like. The consequence that the child doesn't like is almost always the loss of control. From my own experience, for most children, the motivation that they have to learn to avoid behaviors that land them in a naughty chair, is to avoid the loss of control that occurs when they are forced to sit in the chair.

Therefore, the motivation is a positive; do as you are being taught to do, and you remain in control of where your body is and you retain choice in your activities.

Some form of guidance beyond what is required for physical safety is absolutely necessary for a child's development. Children lack the reasoning abilities to determine that a certain behavior will create lifelong problems for them, and there are many behaviors which become habitual and which impact the children in ways that not only harm them in life, but make them selfish and unpleasant human beings. I have seen this happen. Lovely, beautiful, creative and hilariously amusing children who become extremely unpleasant to be around due to their behaviors.

I am myself a free spirit. My daughter is a free spirit. If there was a free spirits club, we'd belong to it. :-) The goal is to shape the fires of individuality in ways that enhance the child's very being, and her life. Not to extinguish it.
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#62 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by wasabi
I haven't watched the show. The ads I've seen made it seem reasonable. However then a friend emailed me about her method for getting a child into its own bed (we were going to see if DD wanted to move to her own bed in our room but it was not a priority for us at all) and I was horrified. I mean really and truly horrified. Don't talk to the child? Don't make eye contact? Just put them back in bed without a word, a look or a touch? Ack! No thanks!
No, that's not how she does it. When I've watched, she's had the parent walk the child back into their bed (carrying them or whatever), lay them down telling them "It's time to go to bed. I love you. Good night." and give a kiss (or something like that - I'm not quoting exactly) the first time they get up. The second time you walk them back to bed and tell them that it's time for bed and put them in bed. The third and subsequent times, there's no more talking but just putting the child back in bed - not allowing the child to engage you in anger, frustration, or anything. She doesn't have the parent do that the first time but the third time and after. This was also in a 3 year old (I think).

Ann
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My husband once preached a sermon on the evils of reality television...

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#64 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 04:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
I quit watching after the third show. CSI is much more realistic. :LOL

Seriously, I told my SIL (who likes the Nanny) that I’d much rather get my parenting advice from Malcolm ~ a show I actually respect and that seems to respect me at least a touch.

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#65 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 04:58 PM
 
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Wouldn't it be funny for her to come in to an extended nursing, cosleeping, unschooling family?? :LOL

That would be priceless. I would love to see her face!
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#66 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 04:59 PM
 
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Deja--nice name WELCOME to MDC or should I say, welcome back. My gut tells me that you are either JoJo or a MDC member in disguise....I am pretty sure I know who you are.
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http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=249834

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#68 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:03 PM
 
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Ary99, thank you for your comments. :-) I too have to run, having spent more time with this than I would have ever imagined, but it was fun and interesting and I enjoyed it.

I would just say one thing about your comments regarding shame. I think that particular type of shame, shame for doing something that one knows was wrong, comes from the conscience. By utilizing techniques that heighten awareness of good and bad behavior, this enables the child to develop that critically needed conscience in the future.

Initially the discipline strategies only clarify for a child what is acceptable and will be tolerated, and what is not acceptable and what will not be tolerated. It is developmentally inappropriate to expect the child to be capable of understanding of right and wrong for it's own sake. That's why it is so critically important that parents do their jobs, by establishing those boundaries of behavior that do indeed guide the child.
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#69 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:06 PM
 
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Thank you for all of the welcomes. I am Deja because that is a name I use on any board in which I participate, but this is indeed my first time on this board, which I only discovered today, and I am not JoJo, but I am flattered that you thought I was.

Now I really have to run. Good afternoon ladies, and thank you for a wonderful discussion.
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#70 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Deja
I would just say one thing about your comments regarding shame. I think that particular type of shame, shame for doing something that one knows was wrong, comes from the conscience. By utilizing techniques that heighten awareness of good and bad behavior, this enables the child to develop that critically needed conscience in the future.
Why is shame necessary at all? Why is it not enough to teach and guide and learn about right and wrong behavior?
Quote:
shame
n.

1.
1. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.
2. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame?
2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation.
3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy.
4. A great disappointment.
I do not want or need my child to have a strong sense of guilt, embarassment, unworthiness, or disgrace. I do not feel that this is productive

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#71 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamame
No, that's not how she does it. When I've watched, she's had the parent walk the child back into their bed (carrying them or whatever), lay them down telling them "It's time to go to bed. I love you. Good night." and give a kiss (or something like that - I'm not quoting exactly) the first time they get up. The second time you walk them back to bed and tell them that it's time for bed and put them in bed. The third and subsequent times, there's no more talking but just putting the child back in bed - not allowing the child to engage you in anger, frustration, or anything. She doesn't have the parent do that the first time but the third time and after. This was also in a 3 year old (I think).

Ann
Hmm that's not at all how it was described to me and this was by someone who thought it sounded like a great idea. Maybe she just forgot some of the steps.
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#72 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:11 PM
 
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Agh! You are too interesting. : /

Monkey's mom, I don't have time to respond to your comments but when I return I will.

Annettemarie;
I refered to internal shame, the shame that a person feels when he himself judges that he has done something that he believes is wrong, not an externally enforced sense of shame.
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#73 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deja
I would just say one thing about your comments regarding shame. I think that particular type of shame, shame for doing something that one knows was wrong, comes from the conscience. By utilizing techniques that heighten awareness of good and bad behavior, this enables the child to develop that critically needed conscience in the future.
I would actually argue that punishment hinders the development of the conscience. Having an external punishment reduces the need/inclination to feel badly about our actions.

Consider the following: child hits, mommy stops child and explains hitting is wrong and punishes child (child put in corner). Now child feels anger/shame about being put in the corner, and feels that the punishment (corner) pays for the crime (hitting). Child must be forced to apologize. Conscience hindered.

Or: child hits, mommy stops the hitting and explains hitting is wrong. Mommy helps child come up with better ways of expressing emotions. Child has not been punished, and feels badly about hitting. Child naturally apologizes. Conscience develops.

Ok, that is an idealistic scenario . But that is actually an important reason that I seek to avoid punishment: development of a conscience.
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I prefer to think of internal shame as a conscience, and I think it is developed by time, patience, and gentle discipline, not punishment.

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#75 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:17 PM
 
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(Welcome to MDC, by the way! If you want to quote someone's post, an easy way to do it is to press the quote button on the lower right corner of the post box. It will automatically put in the whole post of the person you are quoting, which you can then edit.)

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Originally Posted by Deja
First, I do not advocate 'punishment' as much as I advocate 'discipline'. Discipline entails creating an awareness of right and wrong, good and bad behaviors. This is awareness that to a large extent a child must learn, and it is the responsibility of the parent to create this awareness in a child.
All good, so far!


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Originally Posted by Deja
The purpose of the naughty chair is to identify that a BEHAVIOR is naughty and that the behavior has consequences that the child doesn't like. The consequence that the child doesn't like is almost always the loss of control. From my own experience, for most children, the motivation that they have to learn to avoid behaviors that land them in a naughty chair, is to avoid the loss of control that occurs when they are forced to sit in the chair.
How does being forced to sit in the chair tell the child anything about the behavior? It just tells them that if they do what you don't like, you will make them sit in the chair. What I don't get is, how does this assist the child in the gradual process of developing self-control and learning to identify good and bad behavior for herself?

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Originally Posted by Deja
Therefore, the motivation is a positive; do as you are being taught to do, and you remain in control of where your body is and you retain choice in your activities.
No, that's not positive motivation, you are kidding yourself here. That's avoiding punishment by obedience, which is not my goal and apparently not yours either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
Some form of guidance beyond what is required for physical safety is absolutely necessary for a child's development. Children lack the reasoning abilities to determine that a certain behavior will create lifelong problems for them, and there are many behaviors which become habitual and which impact the children in ways that not only harm them in life, but make them selfish and unpleasant human beings. I have seen this happen. Lovely, beautiful, creative and hilariously amusing children who become extremely unpleasant to be around due to their behaviors.
Children may lack some reasoning abilities that they later develop, or so says Piaget. An example: my son does not understand conservation of volumes, so even though he can pour water very accurately, he often pours more than a container can hold. But that doesn't mean that my son is going to develop the lifelong habit of spilling water! If I try to train him out of this behavior through punishment (even though a punishment like making him sit still) it's not going to help him be less messy later in life. Right?

Or more to the point, he might also currently love the word no, but I don't think that means he is learning this as a habit. He's two years old, and two year olds say no. I don't think he's going to be a negative or even "selfish and unpleasant" human being in the future if he says no now. I will still be here to provide him with additional age-appropriate guidance if it turns out that his negativity persists beyond the normal age.

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
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#76 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama
I would actually argue that punishment hinders the development of the conscience. Having an external punishment reduces the need/inclination to feel badly about our actions.

Consider the following: child hits, mommy stops child and explains hitting is wrong and punishes child (child put in corner). Now child feels anger/shame about being put in the corner, and feels that the punishment (corner) pays for the crime (hitting). Child must be forced to apologize. Conscience hindered.

Or: child hits, mommy stops the hitting and explains hitting is wrong. Mommy helps child come up with better ways of expressing emotions. Child has not been punished, and feels badly about hitting. Child naturally apologizes. Conscience develops.

Ok, that is an idealistic scenario . But that is actually an important reason that I seek to avoid punishment: development of a conscience.
Yet what if you have a child who's stronger willed and decides that they want to hit anyway and continue to do it? They know it's wrong, know better ways of expressing emotions but don't feel bad about it and are going to do it anyway. Sometimes I think it's OK to have outside consequences from the parent to help the child. Some kids need it, some kids don't. I think that's what's most important - what will work for this particular child?

Ann
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#77 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:27 PM
 
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This is such an interesting discussion.

Whenever I watch the show, it reminds me of my work with special needs children, many of whom were way out of control at home and in school. Their behaviour was often way beyond that of the children on the show - I mean, you would not believe it if I told you.

My point is that these children are not like ours at home. Things have got soooo bad that these parents actually need a quick fix. An easy to follow, basic method of disciplining. A clear idea of what is acceptable and what isn't. (although I wish nanny would learn to pronounce the word 'acceptable ) I didnt see the chair in the corner, and suspect it was unnecessary. But as for a time out chair, maybe it is necessary to nip the behaviour in the bud.

The problem is that these parents obviously do not have good strategies for dealing with behaviour issues. Things have progressed to the point that they need a black and white answer.

Personally, I dont agree with rewards or punishments. I dont use them in my own family.

But yes, I sure as heck used them with the children I worked with. And I encouraged the parents to use them too! I also used more direct consequences than I'd need to use with my own children. But these children had gone so far that they had little concept of what was right and wrong. And they were deeply disturbed and unhappy, partly due to the lack of clear boundaries. They did not know which end was up, like many of the children on that show.

What was different, though, was that we used these strategies with the express purpose of getting to the stage of not needing them within a very short time. IE parents were given help with the overall parenting issues. Therapy if they needed it, and long term support.

I could bet that within a few weeks those 'cured' children on the show are back to square one. Reward charts, marbles in jars, routines etc only work for so long, and sustained behaviour modification is only achieved if work is done at the grass roots, along with the quick fix strategies.

So, my feeling is that supernanny has some things right. What is missing is long term intervention for these families in crisis. This is what makes me sad - they air the show and move on, leaving these families to fall back into their old ways.

If they really cared, they'd give them long term support and help, not just imply that you can turn around a family in two weeks like this.
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#78 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Britishmum, I think I agree with you!

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#79 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sunnmama

Or: child hits, mommy stops the hitting and explains hitting is wrong. Mommy helps child come up with better ways of expressing emotions. Child has not been punished, and feels badly about hitting. Child naturally apologizes. Conscience develops.
.
Can I get an Amen!
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#80 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deja
My observations of 'Super Nanny's' techniques lead me to believe that her methods are respectful of the child. An adult sitting on a chair facing a wall would indeed be shamed. Please consider the possibility that in concluding that this is shameful to a child, perhaps there is an aspect of projecting adult responses into the young child's psyche.
I wanted to say...my 3yo told me that this was embarrasing and made him angry if other people were around to see him in the corner. Time outs are still effective for him occasionally. He's a very well behaved considerate child. When he needs a time out it's usually because he's become so involved in what he's doing that I can't get him to stop in other ways. He has a one track mind so to speak. So a time out helps him get his mind off of the track it's stuck on. He likes privacy when he's on time out, so he goes to the end of the hallway and sits or lays down on a pillow with a couple of books to look at. He's 5 years old now and this is how we still do it. Like I said though, I only use time out when I can't get him to stop the behavior....or if he keeps going back to it. It's our way or stoppng the cycle. The rest of the time gentle reminders or redirection are still the way to go.

Something else important to bring up........The state of California considers using a "naughty" corner or chair to be humiliating and it isn't allowed in state licensed child care homes or daycare centers. That says a lot to me.

-Heather

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#81 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
 
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We discussed timeouts/calm down spots at our family meeting, and each of our children chose a comfortable spot where they choose to go if they need it. Michael chose on the sofa with a book, Katie Grace goes on a soft chair with a stuffed animal. Both want to be in the living room. Michael has, on occasion, said "I just need a break from you" and gone up to his room. In our family, allowing a child some say without giving them complete control has really eliminated a lot of the power struggles. We can say, "What did we agree to do if you needed to calm down?" or "What did we agree would be the consequence if (insert reoccurring problem here)".

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#82 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
My husband once preached a sermon on the evils of reality television...
...pulling out soap box....

Who are these parents?

Clearly they have some money. Most likely enough to buy a book or two on discipline. Certainly enough to solve their parenting problems in private.

They decide that a good? or fast? or lucrative? way to solve their family's problems is to go on Supernanny or Nanny 911.

So they pocket $50,000 or whatever. In exchange they promise to subject themselves to public humiliation and subject their powerless children to the whims of a stranger. They are not allowed to go against her, even if they feel that their child is hurting. And they know in advance that this person will make their children cry- either a little or a lot.

I don't watch animal planet- but do they even have a show like this about training dogs? More often I've come across shows on animal planet trying to UNDERSTAND dogs. But do we have a tv show that compassionately tries to understand children? No. That wouldn't sell.

Reality TV is stupid at best, but this type of show is evil on a fairly grand scale.

...Stepping off soapbox...
...I'll put it away now...
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#83 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:48 PM
 
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Emotional upset causes pain, obviously. It is difficult to see your child experiencing pain, of course. What I have seen in my twenty two years working with preschool children and their parents has caused me to believe that there is a trend in parenting in which well meaning parents attempt to protect their children from any emotional distress whatsoever.
I think there is a difference between wanting to protect your child from emotional distress and deciding to not cause your child emotional distress. Shouldn't the mother and the family be a soft place to fall when the rest of the world is snapping at your feet? Why should a preschooler feel emotional distress. In my opinion, a preschoolers job is to play and have fun and be a kid. With a firm joyful foundation, children can then handle distress. But what do I know, I don't have any surviving children
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Before you were conceived, I wanted you. Before you were born I loved you. Before you were a minute old, I would have died for you. That is the miracle of life. ~Maureen Hawkins~
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#84 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamame
Yet what if you have a child who's stronger willed and decides that they want to hit anyway and continue to do it? They know it's wrong, know better ways of expressing emotions but don't feel bad about it and are going to do it anyway. Sometimes I think it's OK to have outside consequences from the parent to help the child. Some kids need it, some kids don't. I think that's what's most important - what will work for this particular child?
This is interesting, cause you (I think) are saying that the strong willed child might need a consequence. I have found the opposite to be the case....they don't *get* much stronger willed than dd! Punishment/consequences/etc failed so miserably that we found GD out of desperation, lol.

I tend to think that punishment is doable with a child that is flexible. That child may learn to go with the path of least resistance, and avoid behaviors that result in punishment. For my spirited kid--punishment is a power struggle! A challenge! She just digs in those heels and holds on for the ride .
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#85 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
Reality TV is stupid at best, but this type of show is evil on a fairly grand scale.
Oh, I agree completely. I think it exploits children. I will have to show my hubby your post- you two are kindred spirits!

I, on the other hand, watch Big Brother, the Bachelor, Survivor, and The Amazing Race.

Annette

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Okay, so I'm a new mom and obviously not as experienced as you all are. Please tell me what techniques work for you since you think Super Nanny ones are way out of line. I really thought her methods were kind and obviously worked ASAP. But it sounds like I'm off my rocker when I read all yours posts. I seriously want to know what works for you all. I have a 14 month old and the discplining stage is just starting to be something I'm encountering. I'm trying to learn all that I can so I can be the best mother I can. Please, tell me what you do that is far superior to her techniques? Thanks! :
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#87 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 06:00 PM
 
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This is interesting, cause you (I think) are saying that the strong willed child might need a consequence. I have found the opposite to be the case....they don't *get* much stronger willed than dd! Punishment/consequences/etc failed so miserably that we found GD out of desperation, lol.

I tend to think that punishment is doable with a child that is flexible. That child may learn to go with the path of least resistance, and avoid behaviors that result in punishment. For my spirited kid--punishment is a power struggle! A challenge! She just digs in those heels and holds on for the ride .
I completely agree. The less punishmet we use with my dd , who'd pretty strong willed, the better things go. She understands consequences a bit, but she HATES the power struggle of being made an example of.

Strangely, strong willed children are often very sensitive. I find that my dd is suprisingly sensitive to reprimands, even to "business like" reprimands. She sometimes even takes a firm "no" really hard, hanging her head in shame and getting scared. This is a place where she needs a bit of comfort and support, not a punishment.

The more I work WITH her, the better off we all are.
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#88 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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or my spirited kid--punishment is a power struggle! A challenge! She just digs in those heels and holds on for the ride .
I LOVE this description. Not only does it describe my oldest son, but me as well. And let me tell you, when you have a spirited mama and a spirited child, the sparks fly. That is why we avoid power struggles- no one wins, even when the technically win.

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#89 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 06:01 PM
 
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Yet what if you have a child who's stronger willed and decides that they want to hit anyway and continue to do it? They know it's wrong, know better ways of expressing emotions but don't feel bad about it and are going to do it anyway. Sometimes I think it's OK to have outside consequences from the parent to help the child. Some kids need it, some kids don't. I think that's what's most important - what will work for this particular child?

Ann
I have a strong-willed child. Actually, I like to call her "determined," "focused," "intense," etc. She knows her own mind and isn't afraid to speak up for herself. She also has all the normal developmental behaviour of the average 2.5 year old! Sometimes it really makes me want to tear my hair out. There are days when I have to repeat lessons over and over and over. Omigosh, I hate days like that!

However, just b/c I have to keep reitterating our family values ("ppl are not for hitting," "hard toys are not for throwing," "we say excuse me when we pass somebody or want to get around them," etc), that doesn't mean that the lesson isn't getting home. Toddlers by nature are testers. They are seeking their own place in the world and exercising their ability to make their own decisions. Some children have this drive more intensely than others. 2 things I keep in mind on those "bad" days: This ability of Dd's to be persistant, to be courageous, and to speak her mind will serve her well in life (especially if she learns how to keep all of these traits and express them in a way that's respectful to both herself and others); second, she's a toddler and this kind of testing is a normal, healthy part of her development. She's trying to see if the rules stay the same in different conditions (different locations, w/ different ppl, or when DH or I am in a different mood).

I continue to do what I always do. I state the family value/rule or ask DD to tell me the rule. I intervene to stop her from doing something that is dangerous to herself or others. If she's hitting, I gently stop her hand. I say, "Ppl are not for hitting" or "what is the rule about hitting?" I also usually tell her that if she needs to hit she can hit the soft chair or throw her soft ball, or stomp, or yell, etc. If she's throwing hard toys, I ask her and/or reitterate the rule that we don't throw hard toys. I will usually offer her a soft alternative to throw. If that isn't effective, I will removed the hard toys and tell her, "Right now it seems like you're having a hard time not throwing the hard toys. I'm going to put them away for a little while and you can try again later to play w/ them safely."

Over time, I've watched these techniques really work w/ my DD. On a day to day basis, I may get discouraged, but when I step back I see that she has made progress. GD does work...it's just more work in the beginning! LOL.


BTW, I totally believe in the judicial use of logical consequences. Sometimes natural consequences are unreasonable or dangerous to the child/others. Sometimes the natural consequences are too subtle or far off for the child to understand (like why it's not okay to open the front door whenever she hears the doorbell). In these cases, logical consequences may be the best thing. Removing the hard toys, as I stated above, if the throwing doesn't stop and alternatives have been presented is what I would consider a logical consequence. Sometimes logical consequences are used when teaching or preventative measures (like baby proofing) could/should have been used instead. In those cases, logical consequences can drift into the realm of punishment.

What differentiates punishment and logical consequences, IMO is the intent and consideration given to alternatives. Logical consequences do not aim to shame or cause a child undue suffering. The intent is to protect the child/others/property while remaining respectful to the child. Punishment, by definition, aims to make the child feel bad.

Take the example of the taking away of the hard toys...

Parent A, sees her child throwing the hard toys. She says, "Stop that!" The child doesn't stop or throws something else. The parent then takes the toys away, maybe saying, "I told you not to throw the toys!" The child might also receive a slap on the hand, a time-out and/or a scolding. This is punishment. First of all, the child is told what not to do, but isn't told what to do instead. No explanation for why the toys shouldn't be thrown is given, nor is there any kind of consistant rule layed out. Then, the toys are taken w/o getting down on the child's level and helping them to understand that the toys aren't taken b/c they're "being bad." They are in essence told they are bad.

Parent B sees her child throwing the hard toys. She gets down on the child's level. She says, "What's the rule about hard toys?" or "We don't thow hard toys, they can hurt someone or break something." She then says, "You can thow this soft doll or ball instead." Her tone of voice is non accusatory and non shaming. She doesn't regard this as a show of misbehaviour or defiance. She sees it as developmentally appropriate behaviour that needs correction and guidance. If the child continues to throw the hard toys, the parent again gets down on the child's level and says something like, "It seems like you're having a hard time not throwing the hard toys. I'm going to put them up for a little while but you can try to play w/ them safely again later." The child might still get upset at the removal of the toys (in which case, the parent can empathize and help the child label her feelings), but the parent won't have added shame and misery onto the lesson. This is GD and the use of logical consequences.

IMHO, NO child in the world NEEDS to be punished.

These may not be the greatest examples, but they come from my own experience. I am not as articulate as I wish I could be, but I hope I've made some kind of sense.
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#90 of 212 Old 02-22-2005, 06:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mamame
Yet what if you have a child who's stronger willed and decides that they want to hit anyway and continue to do it? They know it's wrong, know better ways of expressing emotions but don't feel bad about it and are going to do it anyway. Sometimes I think it's OK to have outside consequences from the parent to help the child. Some kids need it, some kids don't. I think that's what's most important - what will work for this particular child?

Ann
This is where I am with my DD. I told her over and over again that she could not hit people etc etc. I did not punish her at all only redirected and stated that hitting was not allowed. At some point though I felt like I had to start doing something. Just telling her not to do it was not doing anything. I didn't feel like I could take my child out among other children all while waiting for her natural empathy to take effect. She did not feel bad when I told her she should not hit. She did not care. She usually just laughed and more often than not just hit again. Particularly with a new baby on the way I felt I did have to start doing something that was stronger than just telling her not to hit and letting her go about her merry way. If we're out and she's hitting then we can leave and that's a logical consequence of not behaving but what do I do at home when she's literally beating on me? In that circumstance I feel like a timeout is not really different than leaving the park.
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