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#121 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 04:27 PM
 
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I am unsure as to where to continue this discussion now. I want to respond to the many well thought out replies, but I don't know where to do it and don't want to disrespect the format of the forum.

What should I do?
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#122 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 04:28 PM
 
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Monkey's Mom;
The information that you posted is consistent with my observations and why I said that self-soothing is a skill that children should begin to learn as preschoolers, not as infants.
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#123 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 04:34 PM
 
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Hey, Deja...you're sure getting a lot of attention as a new member, ha? I'm sorry if I seemed like I thought you shouldn't post here.

You’re just pretty intense for the Supernanny thread :LOL (no offence to the thread AM!)

Normally, I think new members introduce themselves (there’s a section for that). I say continue on like you see fit but also maybe make an intro.

Welcome, sorry if my post seemed rude or unwelcoming.

Mama to DD September 2001 and DD April 2011 *Winner for most typos* eat.gif
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#124 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 04:44 PM
 
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RE: I worry that those shows, even Nanny 911, which is much gentler than what this Super Nanny show sounds like, will just reinforce the idea that parents are all incompetent morons who have no idea how to deal with their spoiled brat kids.

Listen, everyone here is probably the exception to this, but unfortunately, that appears to be the case in the Western world.

Problem is most of these people see the kids as as much an accessory to their lives as, say, the couch or the color-matched art on the walls. So when there's something "wrong" with them, they call in an expert to "fix" it.
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#125 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 04:56 PM
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The problem with western world is that parents are not given the tools to raise their children with before they become parents. Then, when CPS becomes involved, they find out that anything they have been doing can and probably will be declared abusive including GD parenting. All because some bleeding hearts decided that "child abuse must be stopped" but gave no definition of abuse.

Suddenly, they have no way to punish or redirect bad behaviour because all the tools they had were taken away as bad. And worse yet? kids are trained from the moment the start school that if mommy or daddy yells at them or hits them or denies them anything they should tell an adult and everything will be fixed and made better. It doesn't matter if it is the truth or not either because they will be believed. After all, children must be believed because they never tell lies. *rollseyes*

Some of the stuff Supernanny does CPS would consider extremely abusive. But, what is a parent going to do? If our children aren't under control, we are abusive. If they run wild and do damage, we are responsible and neglectful. Yet at the same time, any tools we have to keep them under control have been removed and the courts demand that we take responsibility for children we have no control over because those same courts have taken over our rights to discipline as we choose.

Parents are being set up to fail in North American societies. And CPS is running like a wild rabid wolf devouring our families. Shows like Supernanny just reinforce my belief that the system gone nuts.
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#126 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 05:23 PM
 
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An intro:
I am a 53 year old mother of one. When my daughter was a preschooler, I opened my own in home childcare out of desperation; I couldn't find even halfway decent childcare that I could afford, so I went into childcare so that I could be home with her myself. I was a single mother with no real formal education to speak of, so this alternative was a lifesaver to me.

I ran an in home childcare for 16 years, encountering a wide variety of children, families, situations and childrearing strategies. I found that I had an unexpected and surprising (to me) affinity for raising children. And I discovered a gift for teaching them. I developed my own preschool curriculum and eventually I opened my own childcare center that I ran until about a year and a half ago when the licensing laws in my state changed. I am no longer qualified to serve as the director of my child care center because of my lack of formal education. I had to hire a woman to fill that role, but she has to do whatever I tell her to do because I am the owner of the center. I find it ridiculous and it angers me, so I went back to school at around the same time that these new licensing regulations went into effect. Now I am studying for a bachelor's degree in child development.

Before I had ever entered a college in my life, I had a habit of reading textbooks. I particularly like psychology textbooks, but I am not a psychologist and I have no credentials in that field whatsoever. I have considered pursuing a therapy practice, but at the current time I am undecided as to how long I might choose to remain in school.

I've always been self-taught, up until and year and a half ago, and I'm proud of that. I think that because my education never formally began, it never ended.

In the years during which I ran my in home childcare, I had the opportunity to participate in raising a few nieces and nephews, which was a rare opportunity in this day and age. So, I am a parent, mother of one, who has had the opportunity to interact with, observe and participate in the upbringing of many different children from many different backgrounds.

I don't see my opinions as being in conflict with attachment parenting at all. It is a little disconcerting when I read replies which seem to defend attachment parenting as though I were critical of it. When my daughter was born, it was common for the hospital to insist that the child be separated from the mother. In my day, the mother was 'allowed' to have the baby for certain hours of the day. I was outraged when told this after delivery. Which was natural, through no choice of my own btw. My daughter had no patience for such things and was not cooperative enough for me to receive pain medication. She burst onto the planet with drama and energy. ;-)

After her birth, I demanded that she remain with me. The nurses argued with me until at last I insisted that my daughter and I were going home, release or no release, I didn't wake up in Russia the day that my daughter was born.

Only then did they cave in, and they actually had the nerve to tell me that I was 'responsible' for the situation. Exactly my point, was my reply.

What I wish to convey is my dedication to my daughter. At that time in my life I had never heard of anything called 'attachment parenting'. It seemed to me to be a matter of common sense that the baby would need the scent, sound and feel of her mother right away and as much as possible. The whole Ferber approach to childrearing is quite horrible to me, and I hope in this introduction to have distinguished myself and my thoughts from that kind of parenting.

I wouldn't presume to 'teach' you, and I claim no authority to do so. I'm just sharing as a woman who has raised her own child, and who has participated in the upbringing of dozens, hundreds probably, of other children. I enjoy dialogues such as these, and over these past few years they have contributed to my education ENORMOUSLY, and that didn't happen because I talked only with those who agreed with my perspectives on things, and it couldn't have happened if I was unable to modify my perspective as I gained new information. So while I am a natural teacher, it really is my basic nature, I am not here to teach but to learn.

I hope that helps in seeing where I am coming from. I would like to respond to some of these very interesting posts, but I am out of time. I'll return later and respond at that time.

Sorry for being so 'intense'. I can't seem to help it. ;-)
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#127 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 05:52 PM
 
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Hey Deja-

I want to apologize a bit for my intensity. My dd is very sick right now and since I'm PG as well I'm really feeling the strain.

I realize I'm argueing very sweeping concepts, whereas many of your arguements are about shades of grey. I tend to take a very broad view when I'm overtired.


I hope you continue to visit here.
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#128 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 07:07 PM
 
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Thank you ma'am. I really appreciate that, and I think I can imagine how you feel. I hope you feel less stressed and things get better very soon.
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#129 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 07:10 PM
 
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[QUOTE=Mamid]The problem with western world is that parents are not given the tools to raise their children with before they become parents.


I thoroughly enjoyed your whole post ma'am, and thought that you had many excellent points. I have two questions.

One, is there a non-western society that you would point to as an example of parents who are given the tools they need for parenting before becoming parents?

And two, is it normal in Canada for CPS to become involved in GD? Where I live, CPS doesn't get involved in anything except physical and sexual abuse. At least, that's my understanding.
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#130 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 08:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
And two, is it normal in Canada for CPS to become involved in GD?
I would highly, highly doubt this. Highly.

In fact, the Canadian gov't. seems to have lots of info against hitting children. Most of the Canadian sites I looked at catagorize abuse as we, in the States, do: physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect.
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#131 of 212 Old 02-23-2005, 08:50 PM
 
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Monkey's Mom,
I saw that Mamid is located in British Columbia and made reference to North American societies, so I thought she was probably from Canada and speaking of Canadian culture.
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#132 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie
Actually that would have been a great comeback- look the mean lady up and down really slow and say "Looks like someone needs an EXTREME MAKEOVER"
:LOL

Now I wish I had a quick tongue like that.

There is a show in the UK called "Who rules the roost" or something. It's horrible. I can't believe all the bed time fuss and how parents force their kids to go back to their rooms crying over and over again until they quit and stay in bed.

But the worse of these shows is children can't consent being on TV and probably don't even know they are being humilliated in public view.
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#133 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabi
I can show her other ways to show her excitement or anger but how do I address her hitting because she thinks it's funny?
Could you pick up any instance your child got hurt and make her remember how it wasn't fun? You could ask her "How do you think you would feel if someone hit you? Would it make you laugh? If you fell and went "ouch" should I laugh at you or kiss you?".

If this is too verbal for the child to understand, you could try other things. For instance, if your child hits you, get away from her, ignore her, instead of making her go away. If you get into a confrontation the child might think it's a game. Don't be nice to her for a while so she understands you're not having fun or allowing her to have fun at your expense. If she asks you to read you a story after she hit you, say "no, you just hurt me, I don't feel like being nice to you now".

The child might also be bored and seeking attention (and she gets it because all of the fuss surrounding the violent situations). Maybe you should play more physical games together?

You can also find something she could hit that gives out a rewarding noise. Some toys where you hammer stuff. Drums and xilophones are great, you can hit them with sticks and they make better noises than "ow".

Oh, and I forgot to mention this book, it's great.
Yucky Stuff
I bet your child would love to splat people in the book.

Just some random ideas I try myself.
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#134 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 05:26 AM
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Actually, Western included all of North America. I was on several anti-cps or cps support email lists and read lots of horror stories from all over North America. Look them up - you'll be shocked.

Abuse is also subjective. What one social worker would consider abusive, another would simple say that the parent was stressed. We're hoping the one who was here on Sunday was one who understood we were stressed.

And we have a directive from our Lawyer - if and when she shows, I am to leave and not talk to her. I can't stand them because they always come in, throw a family into upheaveal (I can spell tonight) and don't actually help. And if you don't do what they demand immediately - which is always done verbally - they can use that as an excuse to apprehend. They expect lower income people to live like they are middle income which is completely unreasonable.

damn.. ds is up and he's sick. If I remember to, I'll post more later.
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#135 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 01:37 PM
 
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Mamid, if I recall correctly, you and your partner have very vocally supported *non* gentle discipling methods.

I hope that people will not misunderstand your situation as one directly resulting from the use of gentle discipline, as I don't think that's the case. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
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#136 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 02:29 PM
 
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i actually don't watch it. but i watched an oprah show in which it was about supernanny. it showed clips from the show. i was so disappointed because oprah is so powerful and well respected. i was so disappointed that she basically endorsed her. a lot of moms i know are really into the supernanny and thinks she is great and are already talking about a naughty mat for when the kids are older (they are almost two now). frankly, the last person i would want parenting advice is from a nanny. think about their perspective. it is all about how to take care of other peoples kids. kids who are easy to take care of. quick fixes. when i saw her interviewed, she acknowledged that she has no formal education and no children. she is coming strictly from the perspective of a nanny. if you are familiar with Bowlby's work. One of the motivations for his research in child development was his childhood upbringing (raised by a series of nannies)and his negative views about the common practice of employing nannies to raise the children and later send them off to boarding school- creating a detachment between parent and child, a practice that breeds good behavior, but a cold detached interpersonal style.
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#137 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 03:52 PM
 
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I think you are very right in that children respond very differently to their parents than they do to a nanny. That's one reason the show is a lie, kids behave far better for strangers and caregivers than they do for their parents.

But I also agree that the show promotes cold and detached parenting. While I'm glad she endorses talking to kids on their level and doesn't endorse hitting, I still think it promotes detachment.

The show is about "training" kids and families, not treating people with kindness and respect.
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#138 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 04:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
When my daughter was born, it was common for the hospital to insist that the child be separated from the mother. In my day, the mother was 'allowed' to have the baby for certain hours of the day. I was outraged when told this after delivery. Which was natural, through no choice of my own btw. My daughter had no patience for such things and was not cooperative enough for me to receive pain medication. She burst onto the planet with drama and energy. ;-)

After her birth, I demanded that she remain with me. The nurses argued with me until at last I insisted that my daughter and I were going home, release or no release, I didn't wake up in Russia the day that my daughter was born.
I loved your intro post, but especially this part, "I didn't wake up in Russia the day that my daughter was born." Hah! I hope you will hang around here.

I get that you aren't in opposition to attachment parenting. I think this is just a matter of priorities. It's my first priority, especially with a child my son's age, to foster attachment, security, and trust. When he's older, I will want to move on to emphasizing independence. I do try to think well about what he can do for himself now. I try not to "baby" him (well he is kind of still a baby though, he's only two!). I mean though that if he can do something for himself safely, I want him to do that.

I don't know if we can be a no-punishment household, but I would like that. I've never thought that would be me, but I also can't figure out what I would accomplish by the method of time-outs or whatever you call them. I can't relate to the model of parenting that people here have described as the super nanny style. (I will have to trust that this is accurate as I have no plans to acquire a TV set to watch reality programs.)



My mom likes the reality shows in which people's houses get a makeover. If there is a thread about one of those I will certainly lurk appreciatively.

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
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#139 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 05:04 PM
 
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Deja, welcome to the boards! I think you'll find that many of the parents here are very passionate about the subjects of discipline, GD, and AP. I think that many of us get so defensive and quick to argue b/c we (at least from my perspective) are so accustomed to being treated w/ intense skepticsm (and sometimes downright hostility) from the "mainstream" (the general parenting culutre that seems to largely support methods such as CIO, physical punishment, pushing independance at too early an age, etc). Sometimes it's hard to step back and see that somebody is not criticizing, but coming at the issue from a slightly different perspective. I think you'll enjoy these boards once you get the hang of them though.
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#140 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 07:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
Monkey's Mom;
The information that you posted is consistent with my observations and why I said that self-soothing is a skill that children should begin to learn as preschoolers, not as infants.

i agree with this point. i am continually baffled by magazine articles and books that mention that infants need to "self soothe". one must experience soothing again and again and again before internalizing this and being able to soothe oneself. It amazes me how misunderstood self soothing is. often a childs defense mechanisms kick in when they are not soothed and they rock themselves or stroke themselves or bang their head or something and this is mistaken as "self soothing". it certainly is an attempt at self soothing but not a healthy form of self soothing.

case in point: i'm digressing here but i'm just reading an article in "Child" on the "colic sleep connection" and a pediatrician, Dr. Barbara Howard says "parents of colicky babies pick them up more when they're awake potentially interfering with their learning to self-soothe during the day and the inevitable night wakings." Boy, now you can't even pick them up during the day!
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#141 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
 
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And really, isn't a big part of self-soothing knowing what you need? I am an adult, capable of self-soothing. Sometimes I soothe myself by going to my husband or friend and asking them to help me feel better. Isn't that what our children are doing when they come to us- they are telling us what they need. Why would we interfere with that process my pushing them away in the name of teaching them important self-soothing skills. All we're really teaching them is not to trust themselves or their feelings.

On a side note, never in a million years did I think a thread with the title "Supernanny Sucks" would garner eight pages worth of intelligent conversation.

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#142 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 07:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by annettemarie
And really, isn't a big part of self-soothing knowing what you need? I am an adult, capable of self-soothing. Sometimes I soothe myself by going to my husband or friend and asking them to help me feel better. Isn't that what our children are doing when they come to us- they are telling us what they need. Why would we interfere with that process my pushing them away in the name of teaching them important self-soothing skills.

Absolutely! One very healthy way to "self soothe" is to reach out to another person! people who are raised to be very "independent" (a.k.a. emotionally cut off) have a difficult time connecting intimately with other people, they can be very self sufficient but can be very lousy parents and partners.
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#143 of 212 Old 02-24-2005, 11:16 PM
 
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Good evening ladies! :-)

First, thank you all for the warmth of your welcome. This community is very warm, which makes participation very pleasurable.

I've been very busy with work and school, but I have read more of the conversations on this site when I had a moment or two, and they have been very thought provoking.

NoraB said that she thought GD parents could give very specific examples of how their use of GD taught their children to self-soothe. I have to remind you that I am culling those examples up from memory, and they have required a depth of analysis that I haven't had time for as of yet. I just want NoraB to know that I am not ducking the question of how my own approach can be shown to have taught self-soothing skills. I will respond on that note when I am able to calm my racing mind and give the question the proper attention. I do not dodge or evade tough questions or challenges. I actually quite love them.

Captain Optimism said that she believes that attachment parenting promotes resilience in children. I do not disagree with that statement; in fact, I wholeheartedly agree.

I do, however, find that statement to be a sweeping statement. I just want to express that in my many years of working with families and children, I've seen a LOT of different situations. This has led me to conclude that children's personalities are immeasurably complex. I've never met two children who were identical in terms of psychological make-up, and the differences have been a source of fascination for me.

IMO, no discipline style works for all children. I have seen children so sensitive that even when they committed a major infraction of the rules, I was extremely gentle with them, knowing that they were more upset at themselves for their behavior than I would ever be, and knowing how far compassion and gentleness can go at such a moment.

I've met other children who came from homes that did not attempt to restrain the children from hurting one another. They only punished when children got hurt. I've seen children who seemed to be very low on empathy and I've seen children who were tender-hearted old souls who taught me more lessons that any adult could hope to offer.

I have tremendous respect for children, and I take great joy in working with them. I have been especially successful in rearing children who displayed serious behavioral problems. I have cared for a young boy who was adopted at age 2. Gradually I began to suspect that his behavioral problems might not stem from the trauma of the adoption, but that he might suffer from some kind of neurological disorder. He had Asperger's syndrome.

I've cared for children from so many different backgrounds and cultures and parenting styles, you just would not believe the things I've seen in the years I've been in business.

As I contemplated this discussion, I realized that therein lies the difference between you and I. I am thinking in terms of strategies to deal with groups of children from varying backgrounds and disciplinary styles. You are thinking in terms of how to raise your own children. I think that colors my approach and perception a great deal.

The children I have known who came from terribly permissive homes were usually very self-centered, spoiled and unpleasant children. But in those homes there did not exist the focus and attention that you describe here. In those homes, the parents felt very guilty (often for good reason) and they gave in to the demands of the child rather than to employ a strategy which might have been hard but that they believed firmly to be in the best interests of the child.

I think that may be a critical difference in what I've observed and in what I'm observing here.

I would caution you though, that I have seen another type of very permissive parenting in which the permissiveness served to assuage the rebelliousness of the parent, and to meet the parent's emotional needs rather than the child's emotional needs. I do not mean to imply that you are this type of parents, please understand me. I am only telling you what I have seen.

I have seen parent's who's close attachment to their child was intended to soothe away the parent's emotional baggage more than to truly provide the child with the respect that so many of you describe here. In those situations, there is a lot of attachment going on, to the extent that the child's individuality is actually smothered.

I personally know one woman who's son slept in her bed (she was a single parent) until he was almost 14 years old. That boy is now about to turn 16 years old, and his mother has done so much to infantilize him, because to do so meets her own emotional needs. She sometimes does his homework for him, because she cannot tolerate his emotional distress in any way. This woman has truly retarded her child's emotional growth, and he seems more like 11 years old than 16 years old. She is making choices right now that seem to assure that this boy will never move out on his own. This child exists to fulfill his mother's needs, and I feel great sorrow and pity for him.

His mother is not a bad woman. She is shy, withdrawn and actually quite sweethearted, if not a little bit neurotic. I don't think she woke up one morning and decided to craft a plan to emotionally cripple her son. Her motivations are probably entirely subconscious, but the fact remains that her son will have an impossible task fitting into society to the extent that he can hold down an job and create an autonomous existence for himself.

Suffice it to say, that I strongly believe in equipping a child with the tools to create a happy, loving, productive autonomous existence from his parent. I also think that part of being a happy person is learning to respect the needs of others. This is a skill that I believe should begin to be taught very early, and it almost seems to me that there might be a window of opportunity for that type of development to take place. Over and over again, I've seen situations in which a child was treated so much like he was the center of the universe with everything revolving around him, that he became very thoroughly convinced that this was the case. In those cases that I have seen, those children have a very hard time losing this self-centeredness that has become a very integral part of their personality. Caring and compassion for the wants and needs of others is a trait that has evade them, even though they have known nothing but caring and compassion from the adults in their lives.

Whew. I think I'll take a breather at this time. I want to say it again, because I can't say it enough...if the rest of the population took the time and attention that the women here are focusing on their children, we'd live in such a different world.

It is an honor and a pleasure to enjoy discourse with you ladies. I thank you very much for making me think. :-)
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#144 of 212 Old 02-25-2005, 12:46 AM
 
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Deja- I think you are right that the people on this board are pretty focused on their own children and their own situation, rather than a wide range of children. It' s like the difference between a public health perspective and a personal health perspective. Apples and oranges.

Your post made me think, though, about the potential results of our parenting. "Discipline" is all about getting children to behave correctly- mainly IMO to make parents' lives easier. Many people beleive that discipline in childhood has everything to do with self control, happiness, success, etc. later in life.

I don't necessarily beleive that's true.

I was talking to a friend recently and we were discussing how some of the worst behaved kids we know turned out to be quite nice, normal, gainfully employed adults.

I think from a "public health" perspective, lack of discipline in childhood may lead to trouble later in life. However, it seems like kids who came from somewhat functional families with some degree of support and stability manage to get their act together, even if they don't end up getting along with their parents as adults.

I beleive it's because these kids have an example of a normal life that they will eventually try to emulate.

So I figure, the best way to raise a kind, empathetic, self motivated child is to behave that way. Kids don't always do what their parent's say, but they never fail to imitate them.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense. I guess my point is that we don't really know what our kids will become and there are no promises nomatter what we do to "guide" their behavior. I figure I want my children to see me being a good person, and maybe that's the best thing I can do for them long term.
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I do want to make a distinction between not punishing and being permissive. We keep having to go over this in this forum all the time. Gentle discipline is still discipline, it's not being totally permissive.

I think we run the gamut of parenting philosophies under the rubric of "gentle discipline" but there are a lot of us here who would not just let a bad behavior go by without some kind of response and guidance to a better direction. There are a few moms here who are totally amazing because they are so persistent and careful in challenging bad behavior without using punishment.

Now I'm obviously at a very early stage--one baby, he's only two, it's pretty easy so far--so I don't have a lot of personal experience. But it does seem, from my IRL observations of other families and from my reading, that it's possible to be fully engaged and guide children without imposing punishment and without taking away a child's ability to become independent.

Deja, you give the example of the mom who treats her 16 year old like a baby. This is perfect, though. My idea is that you treat a baby like a baby, a toddler like a toddler, a preschooler like a preschooler--all the way up. You have to read about what to expect at each stage, observe the child's behavior closely, and try to allow them room to develop.

I cannot think of any stage at which it would be appropriate to stick the kid in the naughty chair, or the naughty room, or force them to face the wall. If it happens that somehow I wind up using this technique instead of all the stuff I've carefully learned about in advance, I'll write in to ask that my GD license be revoked.

Divorced mom of one awesome boy born 2-3-2003.
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#146 of 212 Old 02-25-2005, 01:44 AM
 
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Your post made me think, though, about the potential results of our parenting. "Discipline" is all about getting children to behave correctly- mainly IMO to make parents' lives easier.



Laws are all about getting adults to behave correctly, mainly to make society's job easier. I see no fault in that. :-) I really do think that it is pernicious and short sighted for a parent to fail to establish that his or her own needs are important and to be taken into consideration.

I personally think that there is a need for a context in which it is clearly established that the parent is in control and that the parent sets the context and boundaries of the behaviors that are and are not acceptable.

Having been exposed to many, many different kinds of people who defined control in pernicious and egotistical ways, I can understand where the word 'control' might raise some hackles. I believe in treating children with respect, and I know that the way my daughter speaks to me today is a reflection of the way that she was always spoken to throughout her life.

It is my opinion that control should be considered very carefully, as it is actually an integral part of the parent/child relationship. Personally, I strove to transfer control to my daughter incrementally as she matured. In my case, my daughter matured into an incredibly responsible, level headed young woman who deserved the control that she had earned at a pretty early age. I don't take too much credit for this. I know that her personality style was very compatible with mine. I understood her, therefore we meshed very well. After the age of about 10, the only forms of 'punishment' or consequences I had to impose were extra chores for messiness of an inconsiderate nature.

I do very much believe that, for most personality styles, it is unwise to fail to make clear to the child that the parent is the authority figure and that the authority figure is indeed in control. Not controlling arbitrarily or egotisitically, but imposing the nature control that comes from being more fully developed psychologically and emotionally.

Now, whether or not it would be appropriate to 'stick a child into a naughty room' or to have them face the wall, this is in my mind entirely dependent upon the individual personality of the child. I can't overemphasize this; children are all different, and what works for one child may not work for another. What shames or upsets one child may be water off a duck's back for another. In your context, what matters is what is appropriate to the personalities of your children (born and unborn). In my context, I think about what is appropriate across a much wider spectrum.

Which leads to me a thought that has been lingering in my mind. Are most of you stay at home moms? If not, I would imagine that the approach used by your daycare providers or centers are quite different, necessarily, from your own. I have been wondering how that worked, if it worked. Do you agree with the approach of your center or provider? Do you think your child is confused by the differences in expectations between you and your provider? And do you think that your approach hinders your children's abilities to adapt to the expectations he meets outside the home.

To be very clear, I realize that the differing expectations constitute rushing the child. I also realize, from my many years in the childcare business, that in order to avoid these expectations centers would have to charge much more money to accomodate extra training for their staffs. They would also have to enlarge their staffs considerably.

My question is, who pays for that? Quality childcare is very, very expensive to provide. Our government here in America will squander unfathomable amounts of money on the most inconsequential things, but money to improve childcare and to create more affordable childcare is scarce. That is another subject, and one that we can't change overnight.

In the meantime, how do children raised in such households respond to centers and daycares that do employ punishment and that tolerate far less than their parents would?

That's something I would very much like to know.
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#147 of 212 Old 02-25-2005, 01:47 AM
 
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Deja, you give the example of the mom who treats her 16 year old like a baby. This is perfect, though. My idea is that you treat a baby like a baby, a toddler like a toddler, a preschooler like a preschooler--all the way up. You have to read about what to expect at each stage, observe the child's behavior closely, and try to allow them room to develop.




I don't disagree with you in this summary, but I am very much aware that the devil is in the details. There are quite numerous subjects for debate just in determining things like, "Just what IS a teenager and how should she be treated when..."
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#148 of 212 Old 02-25-2005, 03:10 AM
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Actually, we advocate for both "going with what works" and for the right to choose which style to use.

And we have found that the corner, or rather the threat of the corner (and no, we don't turn our son into the wall and we use the microwave to time him) works.

We also praise him for taking his medicine and even bribing him to do so, although we have to wrestle him to the ground to do it. Poor little guy is sick as a dog right now. He's on antibiotics, steroids AND his asthma meds. He takes his asthma stuff without much problems, but anything else.....

Yes, children do act better around strangers and respond better to their discipline than their parents, but not all do.

Good news... our sw is on the case and has borrowed two of my mothering mags for his office.
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#149 of 212 Old 02-25-2005, 06:10 AM
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Repeated post, sorry.
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#150 of 212 Old 02-25-2005, 06:14 AM
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Hello Deja,

You are a very polite and articulate person, and that is certainly conquering mothers here on the forums. You are a very good attention seeker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
But in those homes there did not exist the focus and attention that you describe here. In those homes, the parents felt very guilty (often for good reason) and they gave in to the demands of the child rather than to employ a strategy which might have been hard but that they believed firmly to be in the best interests of the child.
I think is an improper explanation to how exactly a self-centred person comes to be. I think the term "permissive" parent is often misleading, as it assumes parents are authorities by default and that control is a sucessful way to parent. It also assumes that only parents that don't control their children enough "create" self-centred children. But I have seen the opposite too often. Over controlling parents that undermine the children's free will, children that have their lives sheduled by their parents, are very likely to be to be self-centred sooner or later, because they need to explode "I exist!".

Unefective parents should be called neglectful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
I personally know one woman
If you know her personally maybe it's not right to come here and talk about her life in public? Even if you don't mention her name, imagine she happens to come to the forums, how would she feel if you were talking about her and her personal life to strangers on her back? She will know it's her you're analysing if she reads this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
who's son slept in her bed (she was a single parent) until he was almost 14 years old.
Did her son ever complain about it to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
That boy is now about to turn 16 years old, and his mother has done so much to infantilize him, because to do so meets her own emotional needs.
What do you mean by infatilize him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
She sometimes does his homework for him, because she cannot tolerate his emotional distress in any way.
I don't know if you're married, but would you tolerate the emotional distress of your husband? Or your mother? Wouldn't you step in and try to help? You think people have to suffer to learn about real life?

That woman actually sounds like a well intended person, the problem being she probably doesn't have the knowledge to find good solutions for her son's distress. There are better ways of not having her son distress over school homework. Unschooling for instance.

Do you really believe she would be a better mother if only she forced her child to do homework?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
She is making choices right now that seem to assure that this boy will never move out on his own.
This is weird, what kind of choices do you believe can stop a child from moving out on their own permanently?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
the fact remains that her son will have an impossible task fitting into society to the extent that he can hold down an job and create an autonomous existence for himself.
Sounds to me this is a very pessimistic future prediction for a 16 year old! Are you serious? What do you believe makes it impossible for him to have a job in the future? Her mother doing his homework?

In some instances I did the homework of some friends at school, and it enabled them not to be forced to be stuck in the same school year again studying stuf that didn't interest them and move on with their lives. I met some of them later and they were doing better than me!

I believe there is a general confusion bettween what autonomy and independence mean.

All human beings are born autonomous, in which they have their own minds and their own free will controlling their lives. This autonomy is often undermined in childhood by authoritarian parents and helps little for the autonomy of the adult. A child that is not helped make her own decisions will have a hard time making decisions in the future.

Independence is purely an economical aspect which refers to being able to trade in our capitalist society. Many independent people, people with jobs, are not autonomous because they live to do what others tell them to do and are not doing what they really want. It's like their lives are programmed by others. It's a bit sad, don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
I also think that part of being a happy person is learning to respect the needs of others. This is a skill that I believe should begin to be taught very early
How do you believe that skill should be taught?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
Over and over again, I've seen situations in which a child was treated so much like he was the center of the universe with everything revolving around him, that he became very thoroughly convinced that this was the case.
Unless he becomes very sucessful and rich in life, turning into a pop star for instance, he will soon realise that other people will not freely serve him like his parents did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja
Caring and compassion for the wants and needs of others is a trait that has evade them, even though they have known nothing but caring and compassion from the adults in their lives.
This might happen with parents that sacrifice themselves too much and believe that example alone is a infalible tool of education.
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