what is wrong with punishment and consequences, generic answers? - Page 4 - Mothering Forums
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#91 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 05:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kathipaul
YES!!! I've been lurking and sending pms but I have to say YES that is exactly how I feel. I never asked for any specific info related to my life. I never said I was pro punishment and consequences. I am actually opposed to punishments and have only experimented with consequences once. I am still on the fence on that one. I only wanted generic answers to what is wrong with punishment and consequences not what is wrong with my parenting. I still do not understand how it got popular to critique me. Why did that even start? I asked repeatedly for posters to get back to the original question and was ignored.
I think you ended up defending punishment and consequences somehow and then felt attacked. But I DID post some personal examples from my life. I didn't really get any feedback. I was hoping to.

I tried something new last night. Skanda is sick and he was hungry and dinner was a little late. He sat down to eat but didn't have salad on his plate. He usually doesn't want it. We ended up with this picky little battle going on. "I don't want any of yours." "I don't want onions" "I don't want tomatoes" "Salad means lettuce" "I don't want the white dressing (they are all white)" And then big tantrum on the floor. His dad picked him up and put him in his room. I disagreed and tried to explain that Skanda was feeling sick and hungry and therefore his emotional outburst was fully predictable. He got upset that Skanda was "ruining" dinner and said I was spoiling him by allowing that behavior. I took a raincheck on that discussion and went to Skanda and sat on his bed with him and hugged him and offered him water and then we came back to the dinner table.
The new thing is that I hugged him and soothed him instead of waiting for him to cool down. He didn't want me to at first. He told me to get out of his room. He was angry for being put in there. I can totally see how giving him a "cool down" for his dinner table outburst didn't teach him anything and only created more emotional turmoil His need was to have a good dinner and then a soothing bath and then bed. But he was beyond rational behavior due to being sick and hungry.
I'm hoping that if I continue to bring him closer rather than giving him space to work his emotions out, I can curb his violent behavior. He tends to hit me when he's mad
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#92 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 05:12 PM
 
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I didn't get to read through the entire thread until now, but from the quoted portions, it reads as if examples from one's parenting were given for how they have used a specific parenting technique. When information is not only offered, but used to demonstrate one side of an issue, the people it is shared with are going to also use it as the example it was offered as.

For instance, when someone says something to me in my offline life, I'm not going to ignore what they have said. I listen and reply based on what they have told me. I do the same thing online. I speak and comment on the words a member has chosen to post, because why would someone say something, yet not want it to continue to be a part of the conversation as a whole? For me, referring to previous posts simply puts a current post in context.


ETA: Oy! My GD part of the post got deleted by little hands. Will have to rewrite that in a bit. Sorry! This post is out of order now. LOL

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#93 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like to point out that this is rule number one here at MDC:

Posting in a disrespectful, defamatory, adversarial, baiting, harassing, offensive, insultingly sarcastic or otherwise improper manner, toward a member or other individual, including casting of suspicion upon a person, invasion of privacy, humiliation, demeaning criticism, namecalling, personal attack, or in any way which violates the law.

I think that some of us, myself in included, forget this sometimes. I apologize for "ruining" this thread. I have learned a lot about punishment and consequences and I have learned a lot about how my personal examples can be misused against me. I felt attacked in this thread. I have learned that I, inadvertently, stepped into it by posting a real life example that did not clearly describe my views. Sometimes learning hurts and this has been one of those times for me. I hope that future visits to MDC go better.
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#94 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 06:31 PM
 
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Trying again, but far more brief...

For us imposed negative consequences and punishment just don't work, so that's why they are wrong for our family. My kids need to see a distinct correlation between the action and the resulting consequence for them learn something from the whole experience, and to take that knowledge with them when presented with a similar scenario. Punishments, when we tried them a long time ago, only caused the kids to focus on their hurt and upset (and looking back I think DUH! of course it would!! ), so the opportunity for a great discussion and lesson was lost. Imposed negative consequences only showed them that *DH or I* caused the negative consequence to happen, not their actions, because *DH or I* chose the consequence and *DH or I* set it into motion. So we stopped using both of those! Natural consequences, however, display to our kids the true cause and effect of their behavior.

There are scenarios, though, in which I will intervene if safety is an issue. In those cases, if redirection does not work, I guess what I employ would be considered 'logical' consequences, because I will remove the kids from the danger situation so we can talk and work it out. (I should note that what is deemed to be dangerous varies from child to child in my family since I have special needs kiddos.)

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#95 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamadawg
I think calling an action immature is different than calling a person immature. The latter would be namecalling. I wasn't calling the OP immature, but I think what she did was a tad....well, you get the idea.

Substitute any other word you like in there, Snowy Owl. But deleted her posts ruined a very good discussion, IMO.

Then, why don't you start a spin off thread?
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#96 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 08:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meco
Snce this was me, and you are explaining my POV wrong, I just want to correct it.

I intervene with a word (out key word, "caliente" which my son now says when he is around something hot) and my stopping my son from doing something like touching the hot stove. I definitely do not hit him (or "swat" him). That was were we differed.
Maybe this is an age thing? My dd is only a year old, and she is only just beginning to understand when i say "hot!" Now, she will stop when i say it, but earlier she didn't understand and would reach out anyway, sometimes with no warning whatsoever. That was when i would swat her hand away. Now i haven't needed to do it for a while b/c she understands the word "hot".


Quote:
Originally Posted by meco
How is this any different from hitting a child?

It's not different -- it is hitting a child, in the strictest sense. But in the situation i described, the hitting part is really incidental to the act of pushing the child's hand away from the source of danger. The "swatting" was only a function of the speed with which i had to move to prevent injury. Which, IMO, is substantially different from a punitive blow intended to create pain to the child. Perhaps my definition of swat is slightly different from the one you pasted; i use the word to mean more of a light, quick slapping/brushing motion, like you might do to get a mosquito off your arm.
Anyway, now we are getting into some major semantics -- i think we just differ on our feelings about physical intervention. I think there are occasions where a swat is the lesser of two evils, whereas you do not. That is ok, and i am sorry if i misrepresented your POV.
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#97 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 09:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by kathipaul
YES!!! I've been lurking and sending pms but I have to say YES that is exactly how I feel. I never asked for any specific info related to my life.
Maybe not, but you did give examples specific to your life, and that caused us to respond to them. There was never any disrespect intended, but if you use an example in a thread (such as your child and throwing toys etc) or even a hypothetical one, people are going to comment with their opinions. That's part of forum discussions IMO. I absolutely did not mean to hurt your feelings. It's just not how I operate.
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I still do not understand how it got popular to critique me. Why did that even start? I asked repeatedly for posters to get back to the original question and was ignored.
I think people responding to your examples felt personal when it wasn't intended that way. It happens. Tone is hard to "get" sometimes on a message board, KWIM? I have to disagree that you were ignored when you asked us to answer the question. I know for a fact some of us did. Again, it's all good on my end and I hope you feel better soon

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#98 of 106 Old 05-07-2005, 10:17 PM
 
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Alright, I have to be bold and pipe in so that I can face head on my greatest dilemma about the MDC boards. I've been primarily a lurker for the past couple years :LOL (gotta laugh a bit with the start of that sentence....feel like I'm at an AA mtg or something!) Well, that is up until this past week, when I've started posting again. Anway, having been a silent listener for so long, I believe my thoughts on this matter may represent the thoughts of at least some subset of lurkers.

When I first joined MDC, I guess it was a couple yrs ago (can't see it in this reply window!), I made a few posts, but mostly lurked. And I saw this kind of thing happen in threads a number of times. Frankly, it turned me off to posting. I was still reading though, after all, there really are so many wise sage women with wonderful and powerful words in this community and I've been such a huge Mothering fan since the day I found out I was pregnant (thanks to a wonderful friend who dropped off a stack of her back issues as soon as she heard the news and got me subscribed right away!). I'm philosophically very much aligned with most of this community of folks. However, as right on and amazing this group of (mostly) women tend to be, damn...we can be self-righteous in our views. I don't believe this is necessarily a bad quality. But I find that in this kind of environment, where tone is very limited to silly little faces , it tends to be the case that writing style can largely dictate the range of emotions with which a person a person might respond. (I'm very familiar with this phenomenon, as I telecommute for work, so my communication is largely over email) People vary widely in their writing style and some can come off very blunt and abrasive at times without that critical tone factor. It can be incredibly deceptive. Mix that with self-righteousness and oooo boy...you got a potentially hostile miscommunication just waiting to happen. Seriously, no disrespect to self-rightousness, it certainly has it's place in the world. It just makes for a tricky mix with this limited emoticon environment. And, being the relatively sensitive person that I am, despite the fact that I had only been witness to such scenes and had never been personally attacked, still I decided early on not to post but to be a passive observer.

Fast forward to last week when I found myself confronted with a few parenting dillemmas, I opted to start posting again. I posted once in this thread towards the beginning, so I was subcribed to it and followed along. I saw it all growing...I was thinking in my head "lord, no girl...don't go playing devil's advocate with this group, you will be slayed!" Not in the sense that it would happen intentionally...that's not usually how it happens in this community. It's just the toneless self-righteousness factor coming into play.

I must say, now that I have a firm understanding of why this happens, I don't feel as threatened by it as I have in the past. I will likely keep posting despite this latest spat (that is, until my next big project starts rolling and I have to re-focus my attention towards my job!)

Anyway, I hope my thoughts on this issue (which is now a completely separate issue than what the OP wrote! ) provides a helpful way to think about things for at least some of the posters and lurkers out there. (I'm still a lurker at heart! : )

Spread the peace, mamas.

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#99 of 106 Old 05-08-2005, 01:19 AM
 
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Well, I'm just glad you came back, Kathi. We all learn from each other, no matter what our POV's are.

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#100 of 106 Old 05-08-2005, 03:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Piglet68
Well, I'm just glad you came back, Kathi. We all learn from each other, no matter what our POV's are.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats a man who can do him absolutely no good."
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#101 of 106 Old 05-08-2005, 10:09 AM
 
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Happy Mother's Day, everyone!!!

s

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#102 of 106 Old 05-08-2005, 01:58 PM
 
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Happy Mother's Day, everyone!!!

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And to you too!
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#103 of 106 Old 05-08-2005, 09:13 PM
 
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I am confused. When someone starts a thread, do they somehow have ownership of that thread? Do they get to decide what is and is not an acceptable answer? With the exception of the Activism forum, where debate is not allowed, it was my impression that threads sort of wander where they will, and, as long as it is still in the general vacinity of the original topic, it's all good.

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#104 of 106 Old 05-09-2005, 08:20 AM
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So, if you feel *in the moment* that you will be meeting your child’s needs *in the moment* by punishment that’s what you do but don’t punish because of some future lesson you want them to learn.
So wise! Excellent point! But, damn! That sentence is so terribly constucted! :LOL

Quote:
4) For the 15 yo who rode down the hill and killed himself on his bike - maybe his parents always imposed limits on him, so he didn't develop his own sense of judgement.
Thanks for deconstructing all that, EllienC. I had wanted to come to do it, but I never got the time.
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#105 of 106 Old 05-09-2005, 09:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ParisMaman
That sentence is so terribly constucted! :LOL


Hey! :LOL

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#106 of 106 Old 05-09-2005, 04:16 PM
 
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I couldn't read every reply, and a lot are missing?

But to answer the title question~

We do have expectations, both for practical living and for how we treat each other. I am not going to get into a semantics debate over logical/natural/ etc. but, we are all to treat each other respectfully, and clean up after ourselves. If someone isn't living up to that, we figure out why and it gets resolved. Nobody is allowed to continue being disrespectful, but it's hard to summarize how we resolve it, since it's a very intuitive process.

I think for me, what feels wrong with an arbitrary punishment, is that it doesn't really address the actual situation.

I am all for resolving conflicts, and the expectation that everyone commit to it, but I do think it has to about the actual problem, dealt with in the present, and not some abstract set of rules and punishments that we hit each over the head with to express our unhappiness.

Mother is the word for God on the hearts and lips of all little children--William Makepeace Thackeray
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