Alfie Kohn on "Supernanny" - Page 8 - Mothering Forums

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Old 08-05-2005, 05:35 PM
 
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I'm on dial up at the moment so forgive my scattered responses (too much time and a swiss cheese brain means things I want to say slip away through the holes :LOL)

Can we please refrain from the food talk? I understand (and totally respect) it is an effort to lighten the mood, but can we please keep it on topic. Also, please refrain from calling individuals trolls, inappropriate posts should be reported rather than posting to imply someone is a troll or trolling.

Tashile - I value your willingness to listen and to accept responsibility for your posts. As many have pointed out we do not condone discussions of physical/corporal punishment/spanking etc.
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Old 08-05-2005, 07:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benji'sMom
"if high-quality, low-cost daycare were available." That type of bad grammar is not acceptable in this house! Now go sit on the naughty stool, Alfie.
Aww... but he was actually being good!

The word IF signals the subjunctive tense of the sentence. In subjunctive tense, the past tense singular verb is the same word as the past tense plural verb. For example, If I were a rich man" from Fiddler on the Roof. As apposed to "when I was a little girl..." which is not subjunctive. Words that signal subjunctive include the aforementioned If, and also wish and hope, to name a few.

I wish the man I met were Prince Charming... If he were, I would marry him. <--- example of subjunctive sentence.

(*sigh* I am a college English instructor and grammar nerd extraordinaire....)
:LOL

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Old 08-06-2005, 08:39 PM
 
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It seems like a long time since this thread was about SuperNanny but I wanted to comment on that.

I live in the UK where this show originated and I confess to being a SuperNanny addict. The really frightening thing is that I had never questioned her methods until I read this post! I've been reading parenting magazines and watching shows like this for 10 years and I just assumed this was the way you raise kids. Then I had my baby boy and within weeks I knew that something was wrong. How could anyone leave a baby to cry? I found out about Attachment Parenting and haven't looked back.

The scary thing is that I am an educated intelligent person. I'm never led by the crowd and usually critique anything and everything mainstream, but I allowed myself to be spoonfed this rubbish! I feel really guilty for things I have put my nephews and niece through based on this kind of advice. My younger sister was young when she had her kids and looked up to me and I advised her to do all this stuff! I've apologised to her recently.

If I can be brainwashed by this stuff it must be pretty powerful! The only good I can see in it is that the way I've seen some people parent is 10 times worse than SuperNanny - these people will never come round to AP but they might at least learn alternatives to yelling at and hitting their kids. I just feel ashamed that I used to buy into all that stuff!! Thank God for places like this which can help me learn.
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Old 08-10-2005, 11:06 PM
 
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Jeepers Creepers!
Why is it that every thread I go to on every parenting board I find people getting upset at eachother over silly things. It's a TV show! and I know this may seem offensive, and people are going to get mad, but it's just parenting! The philosophies of it change every year pretty much and every generation survives! It saddens me to see so much name calling and hurt feelings over something that shouldn't be such a big deal.

As for Supernanny et al...it's TV, and if people get ideas on how to raise their kids from it, so what...you fail to realize that many parents out there still spank their kids...so in my opinion this may be a good show to get some pointers from! Yes, supernanny isn't with the family for the long haul, but I think she gives the parents some tools that they can use. No one is going to agree with everything she says but then again noone is going to agree with everything I do, or my mom did or any other mom or dad on this board. So let's be nice and remember that loving is what's important not the little things like wheather or not someone agrees with co-sleeping or letting a baby cry it out.
Sorry for ranting, but I am visiting different boards and reading various threads, and some of the things said in this thread make the world of parents seem like a hostile environment!
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Maria'sMom
Jeepers Creepers!
...it's just parenting! The philosophies of it change every year pretty much and every generation survives!

So let's be nice and remember that loving is what's important not the little things like wheather or not someone agrees with co-sleeping or letting a baby cry it out.
Parenting should never be considered "just parenting". It is the most important, meaningful thing a person can ever do. It doesn't matter if the "in" thing this year isn't the "in" thing next year. There are right and wrong ways to treat babies and children. Shaming children by sitting them on a "naughty mat" when they do something you don't like is wrong. Leaving a baby to cry it out is wrong. Both of those things are disrespectful to the child or baby as a human being. CIO and the other horrid, disrespectful things recommended on this show are not "little things". Furthermore, I don't want my daughter to just "survive". Hell, my mother treated me like crap - she called me names, told me I was stupid, etc. And yet, look at me - I survived. By your estimation, that would mean that she did a fine job. I want my daughter to thrive, to succeed, to feel loved and to be able to give love - not just survive.

I'm sorry, but in my honest and not-so-humble opinion, it is sentiments exactly like yours that allow people to continue mistreating their children. You think everyone should just do whatever (s)he wants to and no one should interfere or tell them there is a better way - that we should all just accept everything every other parent does. Well I disagree. I don't go around telling other parents how they should parent, but I'm not going to sit back and think that whatever they do is just fine. If someone asks me, I'm going to tell them there are better ways to treat children. I'm going to make sure my daughter knows that there is a right and a wrong way to treat human beings - whether they are children or adults. You can't change the world with an "everything's okay as long as you don't do it to me" attitude.
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelle
Parenting should never be considered "just parenting".
My thoughts exactly!
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Old 08-11-2005, 11:56 AM
 
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I am just saying that it shouldn't be taken so seriously that it causes bad feelings between parents. Yikes! You did illustrate my point exactly:there are so many children who suffer abuse, maybe we should focus on that as being wrong as opposed to focusing on someone who's ideas differ slightly from yours. I think it's very mis-guided to think that one parent's way of parenting is the best or the be all and end all of parenting. And yes, I do think those things are unimportant...a lot of people believe in using the 'naughtly mat' because their children beat the crap out of eachother and that's the only thing that works for them! I think that you should spend less time 'shaming' other parents...if you don't 'shame' your children but 'shame' other adults what message does that send to them? No parents are going to be the same so why do we have to criticize each other? This sucks....I guess my question is...are all parents on this board catty, critical and 'holier than thou'?
Is everyone just going to argue about semantics...like how I said 'just parenting' or are we going to talk about how out of control we have gotten about pushing our lifestyles on others? So many people are very 'preacy' about their chosen life-style, maybe I'm just stereotypical Canadian, but it makes me uncomfortable to be met with a 'my-way-or-the-highway" approach! I don't hit or abuse my children, but I do parent in a different style, this does not make me a bad parent. I love my kids and do what feels right, I don't like being 'shamed' and I've seen a lot of that on this board.
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria'sMom
I guess my question is...are all parents on this board catty, critical and 'holier than thou'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maria'sMom
I don't like being 'shamed' and I've seen a lot of that on this board.
It is beyond impolite to come to a board and immediately start bashing the members who disagree with you. It is also against the UA.
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:54 PM
 
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No, I did not illustrate your point. I took examples that you called unimportant and stated that I *do* think they are important, as do many of the other mothers here.

Furthermore, I do not *ever* go around "pushing my lifestyle on others". I clearly stated that! I do not tell other parents that I think they are doing things wrong and I do not shame other parents! I don't discuss how I think things should be done unless someone asks me. However, if someone asks me if I think they should continue to let their baby CIO, I *refuse* to say, "Oh whatever works for you is just fine, dear." No way. I would say, "Actually, there has been a lot of research that shows this is not good for babies. I can share it with you any time you like. And I can also introduce you to lots of people who can give you other tools for helping your baby get to sleep and for helping you feel more rested." Where is the shaming in that? I would not be setting a bad example for my daughter by doing that! I would be setting a good example - I would be teaching her how to stand up for what is right even when everyone else disagrees.

I also find it interesting to see you say that *you* do not like feeling shamed, right after you stated that using a "naughty mat", which is a tool designed specifically to shame children, is an acceptable disciplining technique. Why do you feel that it is okay to shame children, but not adults? Why do you feel that it is setting a bad example to my daughter to teach her that there are right and wrong ways to treat children, but it is okay to shame her into doing what I want her to do? Your example of children beating each other up and the "naughty mat" being the only thing that worked....If it's the only thing that works, those parents haven't tried everything. Period. Shaming children and withdrawing love from them is *never* the best way to discipline.

I know you seem to have gotten the impression that people who are critical of certain parenting practices simply wish to impose their exact form of parenting on everyone else, but this isn't the case at all. We are coming from a place in our parenting lives where we have done a *lot* of research on things and have decided what things are and what things are not a proper way to treat children. No one here is arbitrarily saying, "I think all children should be fed a potato everyday" or something else that has no import. We are stating the researched facts. Did you read the article that sparked this whole thread? There is a lot of research to show that time out is hurtful to chidren and doesn't help them learn to do better. The parents here are discussing factual research, which proves that there are better ways to treat children. I believe that most parents would *want* to know about these ways. Yes, it may be painful at first to hear that something you (general you, not you personally) is not good for your child, but how much better would the world be if we could all embrace the truth and move forward, rather than stubbornly digging in our heels and deciding that we aren't going to let anyone tell *us* how to do anything?
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelle
Furthermore, I do not *ever* go around "pushing my lifestyle on others". I clearly stated that! I do not tell other parents that I think they are doing things wrong and I do not shame other parents! I don't discuss how I think things should be done unless someone asks me.
Well, I didn't ask...I was just wondering how opinions get so out of hand that someone gets called a troll, that's all. I just wish people could get along, I know that I'm not helping by generlizing and calling people catty, etc, but I don't understand. BTW, I happen to agree with your philosophies Richelle, I just find some people on this board to be a bit harsh to those who don't. Remember, there are 'reputable' sources to support every theory and I have read the article that started the thread and many other parenting articles as well. I am also a teacher, not uneducated or uninterested in early childhood behavior. I don't like being labled 'the kind of person that...'when I was just wondering why people are so serious they are willing to bash and call people trolls. In a typical Canadian way I was trying to see why people fight so much on webboards and I got dragged into one of my own! Gosh, the internet is evil- so impersonal and easy to type the first thing that comes into your head when your feelings are hurt! But, I'm done now, I just wanted you to know that CIO etc are not my philosophies, just examples of what I've seen on the board. Ah well
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:13 PM
 
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OMG great article! Perfect! I'd love to print & frame it for some "friends."

Hmmm...didn't know there was an Alfie Kohn thread.
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Old 08-12-2005, 01:17 AM
 
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Oh! Maria'smom, I had no idea you were talking about the whole "troll" thing. I wasn't involved in that part of the thread, so I had forgotten all about reading it a few days ago. Now I can see why you might have the ideas you do...The poster that some were calling a troll came in with his fists raised. You didn't get a chance to read his posts, because he had to delete them since they violated the UA. In his very first post, he said that Alfie Kohn was stupid and we were all stupid as well. He said that kids today were in juvenile detention because they weren't spanked. He said that people who didn't punish their kids were not intelligent, yadda yadda. THAT is why people were calling him a troll - he came in and insulted every one of us and made uneducated statements that don't fit with the philosophy of this forum. It isn't because people simply disagreed with him or wanted to force their opinions on him - not at all! It's because he came in and tried to force *his* opinion on everyone else and then said everyone who didn't agree was basically an ignoramous. (As you can see in his (tashile) last post, I believe he changed his mind.)

Without knowing all the rude and misguided things that man said, I can see where you might think the mothers who responded to him were being rude themselves. That simply wasn't the case.
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:16 PM
 
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Wow...see what happens when you're AWOL. It is really tough when the trollish posts are removed b/c then all the reference posts are out of context and the thread seems unbalanced.

I do think GD can be more controversial than the other forums, though. I'm a somewhat reformed lurker here due to that. :LOL
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Old 08-12-2005, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44
Umm, none, because I never let them even get near a car. (And you are kidding right?)
wanted to quickly explain to you why I said this....the person that was on here stirring the you-know-what said that the only effective way to keep children from running into the street was to hit them the first time they tried (so if you didn't do that I was asking how many times they had been hit--my attempt at humor). Hope that explains it
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Old 09-11-2005, 06:15 PM
 
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I agree with AngelBee. I do like Supernanny. But not because I think she is always right, but because it makes me laugh when I see these families and it makes me think, " how on earth have you let your children get this naughty and disrespectful". I also watch nanny 911 and I think the same with them too. I have 2 children age 2 + 6 and they are complete angels compared to the children who appear on these programmes. I wouldn't stand for any of the the parents put up with but I do think a lot of it is down the parents being too soft. I am shocked at some of the behaviour from these children on these shows and I feel very lucky to have such good children. Some of the language that comes out of the mouths of these children is usually down to the parents speaking that way. It just goes to show, children learn from their parents and so the parents are responsible for their children's actions.

Anyway, this is just my opinion and so you might not agree with me but that's what I think.
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Old 09-12-2005, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AngelBee
I did read the article. Twice.

I still like her. The parents that they show are spineless. Children spitting, hitting, swearing, etc. need the consistency and attention show by Spuernanny.

They are crying out for attention, but they need to also learn that bad behavior is not the healthy way to get the attentio that they are longing for. The parents also have to learn to be parents.....not victems (sp?) They are the reason their kids are out of control. They have to regain balance in there homes.

I must admit, I tend to agree. Supernanny and Nanny 911 are very against yelling and hitting. They ask the parents to be loving with their kids, to do things as a family, for dads to pitch in more around the house andrespect mom's hard work, they say when you speak to a child get down to their level instead of talking "down to them."

They do use time out - which I don't use - but these children are so out of control and already being yelled at and spanked perhaps this time out is a better solution for this need. I don't have to use time outs because my daughter was never a little tazmanian devil. :LOL It's so easy to say to a parent do it my way, and my way is the only way (no time outs) but in reality that may not work for kids who have been allowed to run the house and do as they please for so long. Beating up their siblings, hitting mom and dad, destroyign the house, spitting, and other seriously rude behavior.

The thing that disappoints me the most is that the children on these shows have gotten to that level of desperation in the first place. I feel really sorry for the kids.
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Old 09-12-2005, 10:14 PM
 
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Just wandering off topic for a minute because someone typed this word

Quote:
responsivility
I think it was just a typo but I wanted to point it out because I think it should be a word! A cross between responsibility and civility, its perfect.

I have watched supernanny and I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand I really hate the "naughty corner" and the extreme rigidity of her pronouncements. I detest the idea of forcing a child to apologize in order to receive a hug and a kiss. However, when I listen in to the talk on some of my more mainstream boards I hear exactly the kind of stories that supernanny shows...(edited or not, those situations do exist) Kids totally out of control, and in control of their parents, with parents that go back and forth between complete permissiveness and severe punishments. Kids that are so incredibly stressed from not being heard and being forced into testing the limits all the time just to find them, kids that have no idea what respect from a parent would even look like. I work with children that have been smacked plenty but at the same time have never been truly disciplined and they are a mess...seriously disturbed and anti social and a danger to themselves and others.

When I look at it from that perspective I guess I feel like at least supernanny is better than that. I hate that it is seen as a better alternative than gentle discipline but I love that it is being seen as a better alternative than smacking your kid and then buying him a TV for his bedroom because you feel guilty. I guess I wish that SN was the worst method of child rearing around because then I would rail against it with everyone else, but I've seen worse and I've seen the results of worse I think we might be forgetting how incredibly prevalent that style of discipline actually is, where time out is truly and improvement.

Aviva
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