Tantrums worldwide? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 of 86 Old 06-02-2005, 08:20 PM
 
Dechen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't had much sleep lately and I need extra help these days!
Dechen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#62 of 86 Old 06-02-2005, 08:22 PM
 
Mothra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechen
Thanks for the clarification. I haven't had much sleep lately and I need extra help these days!
I heard that.
Mothra is offline  
#63 of 86 Old 06-02-2005, 08:24 PM
 
iridium's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Someone referred to the Continuum Concept here and that the author was an anthropologist and that just is not true. (my apologies if this was already brought up)

Jean Leidloff was a model and in South America and ran into the Yequana while hunting for diamonds. She noticed some things then returned to the Yequana to observe them at another time. I don't mean for this to discount her work. Her writing has influenced my parenting a great deal. Yet I do think it can be taken with some grain of salt too. She also never had a any children of her own.

She also emphasizes that the kids didn't cry. There is a phrase/word in the Yequana language that translates roughly to "the time that the babies talk to each other" which could very well be similar to what we experience in the western world as colic which is often in the evenings.

Samantha
iridium is offline  
#64 of 86 Old 06-02-2005, 08:31 PM
 
Ilaria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Currently living in Beijing, China
Posts: 2,460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spatulagirl
Then we moved to Italy where you see children and babies freaking out all the time. When DS throws a fit (and he loves to do it in public, anywhere any time!) they bend over backwards to make him smile. He gets candy, treats, toys, a tour of the kitchen. Food gets sent back for him, he gets tickeled. Anything he wants. He could destroy a restaurant and they would probably find it cute :LOL
:LOL Oh Kate, I'm from Italy and that's so true!! (Just like SE Asia)

Ilaria mamma to Owen, Caroline & Patrick .... loving life as expats in Asia intactlact.gifnovaxnocirc.gifuc.jpgnamaste.gif
Ilaria is offline  
#65 of 86 Old 06-02-2005, 09:06 PM
 
irinam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Fran Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
Talking about how people in Culture X co-sleep and how wonderful it is for them doesn't tell me anything about how it fits into my life.
It does not until I try! But when I do and it does fit into my life, that is exactly what I am going to say "I learned how people in Culture X co-sleep and tried it – it works wonders for us!" I am NOT going to say "Culture X is wonderful because they co-sleep like so" or "Culture X is awful because they don’t do XYZ"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
It also does Culture X a disservice because it reduces the people of that culture to a two-dimensional image of what we need them to be in order to serve our own purpose-- in this case, advocate for co-sleeping.
Why? I am Russian/Ukrainian by birth and my first 20 years were spent immersed in that culture. Let me tell you, in many ways it is drastically different from American or many other cultures for that matter.

One thing that I will use as an example – Elimination Communication is practiced widely there. So if somebody said (wrote, typed, what-have-you) "I am using EC technique as I saw Russian mothers do and it works great for us" – I am supposed to feel "reduced" or as if my culture was done "disservice" and/or portrayed two-dimensionally?
irinam is offline  
#66 of 86 Old 06-02-2005, 10:29 PM
 
Plummeting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,009
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow! What a thread this is!

mmaramba - I didn't mean that the world was necessarily safer overall long ago! I just meant that 1000 years ago kids weren't constantly hearing, "Don't put things in the outlet," and "Don't put that in your mouth" and "Don't touch those cleaning chemicals" and "Don't run out in the street" and "No you can't have that junk food" and "You can't run from Mommy in the store." Obviously people were in much more danger of death by disease, injury, being eaten by predators and many other things. It's just that babies were actually able to play with pretty much anything they found on the ground and go wherever there were people to watch. That would make for a much less stressful life to a toddler, IMO.

I agree with Mothra and others who say that babies are often called high needs even when they aren't. I don't necessarily think my DD is high needs. She just has a lot of meltdowns. However, I think the OP may not recognize that some high needs babies (and some that aren't, even, like mine) will have lots of "tantrums". LOTS! :LOL
Plummeting is offline  
#67 of 86 Old 06-02-2005, 10:48 PM
 
mmaramba's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
It's just that babies were actually able to play with pretty much anything they found on the ground and go wherever there were people to watch. That would make for a much less stressful life to a toddler, IMO.
Right, not stressful for the toddler. Agreed.

Until he came down with salmonella from chewing on those feathers he "found on the ground."

Now THAT'S stressful! :

(And nobody tell me that someone would have been there to take the feathers away. To some great extent, people 100-1000 years ago didn't make the connection with disease).

You're right that there were probably fewer restrictions on children's behavior 100-1000 years ago... I think we would probably do well to emulate that... to a point. All I was saying is that there has probably been a net benefit to our survival to all our do-thises and don't-do-thats. KWIM?
mmaramba is offline  
#68 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 02:05 AM
 
Flor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: California
Posts: 5,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
First of all, where did I say that you shouldn't learn from other cultures? What I said was that if you are going to look at one particular aspect of a culture outside of your own, you need to understand how it fits into the bigger picture. Talking about how people in Culture X co-sleep and how wonderful it is for them doesn't tell me anything about how it fits into my life. It also does Culture X a disservice because it reduces the people of that culture to a two-dimensional image of what we need them to be in order to serve our own purpose-- in this case, advocate for co-sleeping.

Do I think you should stop reading parenting books based on practices in other cultures? I'm not going to tell you what to do, and I think you know that is ridiculous, but I do not read such books. I think you know the borders of your own culture, that will be different for everyone.

Who said anything about "mainstream" America? I think you are missing my point completely. If you really are interested in what I'm talking about, read more about the myth of the noble savage and cultural appropriation. I've explained about as well as I'm capable.

The notion that babywearing and nursing in public belong to a particular culture is absurd. Breastfeeding is certainly not cultural, it is biological, and babywearing has been done in almost every culture across the globe in some form or another.
Ok, I have read plenty about the myth of the noble savage (minor in Latin American Studies), just don';t quite see how it applies in a concrete way. Is looking, admiring, trying different from appropriating? I don't see how hearing something about a culture, trying it in your own family has to mean that you are reducing a culture to a two diminsional image. We should learn from other cultures but not pick and chose what to incorporate into our own lives?

Maybe babywearing has been done in most cultures but I was stealing it from indiginous Mexican cultures since they were the first ones I saw doing it. It looked like a good idea and the babies seemed to enjoy it. Breastfeeding, babywearing, cosleeping, don't seem like aspects of my "culture" as I understand it so I am stealing these ideas from other cultures and bringing them into my own life. Actually, I think you have given me some concrete ideas about this, like about homebirth, it is just that I have never heard what people say about homebirthing in other cultures so I am still missing this.
Flor is offline  
#69 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 11:19 AM
 
UUMom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Im not so sure there were 'fewer restrictions' on children 100 or 1000 yrs ago. Maybe a million yrs ago. Maybe some kids have fewer restrictions, but some kids had more. Slave children, fi. The little Roman slave or Greek slave or African slaves or whatever slave children certainly had restrictions. Or the children playing on the floor of factories 100 yrs ago while their mothers sewed, or the little children who sewed in the factories.

I think each culture, each time had it's own restrictions. Even the wealthy Victorian children had to behave in a certain way, and long before that, children were not even considered children and people did with them as they pleased.

I am also sure the cave children didn't wander too far off and often did get burned from the fires and did fall off cliffs or step in poison ivy...or get stung by bees...

I dont think any child has lived without it's share of cultural frustration.

Tantrums have to do with fatigue and brain growth, and I maintain there is nothing abnormal about them. We can try to limit them, feeding the child, making sure we are not making great demands when she is tired, not putting them in frustrating situations for our own egos etc. But they are going to happen for most children, at some point.

I simply do not see that all expression of pent up 'stuff' is bad.
UUMom is offline  
#70 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 12:35 PM
 
gaialice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,221
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilaria
:LOL Oh Kate, I'm from Italy and that's so true!! (Just like SE Asia)
I am from Italy too, and I totally agree. It was not until I moved to Switzerland that I realized that if a baby cries you do not necessarily have to do something IMMMEEDIATTELLY!!!
gaialice is offline  
#71 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 12:43 PM
 
IncaMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Mothra-
I have also studied a great deal about the noble savage and cultural appropriation during my doctoral coursework...I agree that these kinds of conversations *can* be dangerous, but I also think that maybe you're making grander points than are necessary in this particular conversation. You seem to be getting really emotional about the "racist" tendencies of a few of the posters on here, and I'm not sure it's really warranted...Maybe I'm interpreting your posts incorrectly, but I think that you're arguing on a level that nobody is trying to take it to...perhaps that's the issue...that you feel that it needs to be taken there...and you may be right, but I just think that your points are not being taken as they are intended because the conversation is just a little south of where you're talking. does that make sense?

I think that we can learn from other cultures, as do you...and I agree that acontextual "practices" are useless to an anthropologist or sociologist and any articles or papers presented without a contextual component would be laughed out of any peer review. But that's not what this is, really...I just feel like it's not helping the other posters to keep hearing about acontextuality rather than discussing the actual practices that they're concerned with, kwim?

AAGH I'm reading my post over again and I'm realizing that I'm not explaining my point well at all. I have written some of the exact sentiments that you've posted in this thread for papers/presentations/publications. I am in total agreement with you anthropologically...I just feel like it's getting lost in this thread because it's not really useful in *this* context...kwim?

oy. I'm butchering my point. I'm gonna stop here and hope that maybe someone understands what i'm trying to say! i'll come back later when I can form an articulate thought.
IncaMama is offline  
#72 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 02:07 PM
 
Mothra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Let's see what they have vs what we have that might contribute to the topic being discussed:

1. Community environment (being a part of community, many "hands" to assist the Mother) - vs Nuclear Family (being the one who has to be treated differetly, only one pair of Mothers hands)

2. Many kids to socialize with vs one or two kids OR scheduled day care enviroment

3. Lots of space and things to explore (mostly outside - nature can be explored endlessly) vs somewhat of an isolation in an apartment or house with limits of what and when can be touched

4. Fresh air almost all the time vs limited exposure to fresh air (even 6-7 hours a day IS a limited exposure) plus smog, exhaust, other pollutants

5. Waking up when rested and going to bed when tired - vs scheduled routine

6. Eating foods free of any chemicals - vs chemically laces previously frozen and microwaved foods

7. Lots of natural physical activity - vs made-up activities like Gymnastics, etc.,

8. Adults that have simple purpose - vs adults that have too many responsibilities and lots of stress
If this doesn't invoke the image of the noble savage, I don't know what does. I've been having these message board conversations about attachment parenting for a long time. These conversations, that begin with questions about "other cultures", invariably turn to this racist ideal. In addition to the racism inherent in the discussion, it puts unfair and unrealistic pressure on women to emmulate practices that are not always supported or even practical in the culture we live in.

As I stated earlier, there is a stark difference between people making observations about cultures they are immmersed in and making generalizations about "other cultures". Several posters have ignored the fact that I said that and continued to comment about personal experiences in response to things that I said about the noble savage myth.
Mothra is offline  
#73 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 02:27 PM
 
IncaMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
do you disagree that some "other cultures" can be at least partially characterized by having some of these qualities? I thing that finding this combination of characteristics is overgeneralized and definitely does fit the "noble savage" image. But I don't agree that merely listing these types of characteristics as oppositional to what the poster believes America to practice is inherently racist.

Does the poster have to list the reasons that the nuclear family is not preferred in many other cultures? Does she have to explain that there are postive and negative contextual factors that led to larger families, communal living, etc? I agree that it might help to make a richer argument, but I don't think that failing to do so nevessarily means that she's falling into the grander trap that you're worried about.

I see the undertones of what you're talking about...I do see it. I've been trained to see it, probably as you have. I just think that you might be a bit hypervigilant about *some* things that aren't *totally* there.
IncaMama is offline  
#74 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 02:33 PM
 
IncaMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
hm...you know what...I think I see what you see...I just re-read the list and thought of at least a few "buts" to every single "noble savage" characteristic. And I think I feel the same ickiness that you do about the comparisons.

I guess in my mind I'm also seeing that those characteristics (which may or may not actually occur in "other cultures" and which may or may not be forced upon them because of other negative characteristics in those "other cultures", be the only options, be the most compatible with the other millions of characteristics NOT listed, etc...) are positive...so I'm immediately taking it out of the "noble savage" conversation in my head and just seeing the "best practice" argument, without the cultural component. Which is wrong on my part, as it is very much couched in the cultural argument...i think it is because those things are natural to my South American experience so I don't see it as "other" and therefore don't attribute it to the noble savage myth.

My point is that i see your point now. i think i was removing the cultural component in my own head when i read things like "fresh air" and just thinking "well, that's good...what's your beef?" and not really keeping it within the context of cultural comparison.

soo...sorry 'bout that. go on about your business. LOL
IncaMama is offline  
#75 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 03:40 PM
 
mamakay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: in la la land, or so they say...
Posts: 8,332
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Mothra and michelemiller,
Can you go a little more in depth?
I'm not asking you to try and squeeze years of study into a post, but I want to be sure I'm following you...
I think I might be, but I'm not sure.
I'm thinking of a documentary I saw on Pakistani women. At first it looked quite ideal and quintessentially AP...till you saw that the mother was sold to the husband and his family for some goats when she was 14, and the "extended family" were her "bosses" and she wasn't much more than a slave, etc.
Is that the kind of thing you're talking about, or am I totally missing your point?
mamakay is offline  
#76 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 04:00 PM
 
Piglet68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Posts: 10,977
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay, first Mothra, thank you for getting me to even think about this issue. I dare say I would have merrily continued along without it occurring to me that we may be treading near dangerous ground. Very thought-provoking stuff.

And thank you michelemiller for providing your well-written posts as well. As interesting as I find Mothra's arguements, I feel that perhaps the point has been made and that I think perhaps the level is being raised to one beyond the purposes of this thread.

Okay, back to the discussion at hand. The one question that keeps repeating in my head over and over (and stated many times by UUMom) is:

Why are we acting like tantrums are "BAD"? Or need to be reduced?
Or need to be "dealt with"???


AFAIC, they are a normal, natural and healthy part of human development. Children are feeling emotions like frustration, anger, sadness, etc. for the first time and they are expressing those emotions in the only way they are developmentally capable. Instead of worrying about the noise level, the amount of thrashing that goes on, the length of the episode, or the frequency, why not just express some joy that our children have moved into another wonderful and challenging stage of their growth as people?

I remember when my DS was only about 4 months old and he was just learning to grab objects and he would get himself all worked up when playing with any toy. He'd get more and more vocal until he'd just burst into a fit. My DH was like "What is wrong with him? He can't even play without getting upset? Aren't toys supposed to make babies happy?". But I was not upset. I was amazed! This tiny baby is already demonstrating frustration? That's a huge milestone. It was my first glimpse into his personality. He's going to be an emotional and sensitive little fellow, I'm guessing. Wonderful!

I do think that reducing stress in a child's life is always a good plan. Keep them fed, rested, and in a "yes" environment as much as possible. And, as with all of us, reactions to emotions tend to be harsher when we are under stress of any sort (don't we all experience this ourselves on those parenting days when you've had no sleep and everything just sets you off?).

So from all this discussion, I think the most important and relevent answers are the ones that point out the ADULTS' reactions to the tantrums. And their attitudes about whether they need "fixing" at all. I don't believe they need anything more or less than empathy and love. In places where parents "get" that, I think kids are better able to just be kids.

teapot2.GIF Homeschooling, Homesteading Mama to DD ('02) and DS ('04)  ribbonjigsaw.gif blogging.jpg homeschool.gif

Piglet68 is offline  
#77 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 06:40 PM
 
Flor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: California
Posts: 5,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think the question on this thread is "are tantrums completely natural part of toddlerhood or do they happen more often in North America." I would think that it would be helpful for people who have lived in other cultures to share their experiences with this topic. I agree it is not particularly helpful for others to share what they have heard/read/think might happen in another culture that they are not particularly familiar with. They are probably essencializing and promoting stereotypes. I just don't think that it is impossible to have this conversation without being racist about it.
When a PP listed attributes of another culture that were very vague, I didnt' even think she was listing attributes of another ethnic/geographical group, I thought she was listing aspects of a hippie/commune kinda culture in North America so it didn't strike me as racist. I know people who live within that subculture.
My question is, how can thinking parents not pick and choose the best practices of other groups? It was endlessly fascinating to me to be raised in a mix of midwestern North American culture and California Mexican American culture, then move to Mexico and really explore the difference that I see in the family relationships there compared to here. I just can't ignore that and say, well my neighbors all do it this way, so. . . This problem is challenging for me since I was not being flippant when I asked what is the boundary of a culture? What culture an I apart of, and what culture am I outside of? For a mixed cultural person living in a mixed cultural world, this is a real question to me.

Ps. I am enjoying this conversation, feels like I m back in grad school, but mothra, why did you think that it was "odd" to compare mexican and american toddlers? I was a little hurt by the comments.
Flor is offline  
#78 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 06:45 PM
 
IncaMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Flor, I have the same issues of being bicultural...my US-self and my South American self are complex and intertwining, but it often makes me less aware of how I am being subtly racist in my assumptions. I tend to think that everybody has the same shorthand as I do or that I am inherently non-racist simply because I have been raised in two different cultures.

I have to go eat now (i have about a 5 minute window, being 14 weeks pregnant and still in the throes of morning sickness) but i'll come back to chat more about this later.
IncaMama is offline  
#79 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
Dal
 
Dal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'd love to read more about the noble savage argument and why this discussion can be perceived as racist. If we were to think out an ideal community in order to create a commune, e.g., we migth start with points similar to these and see where they lead us. While we try to figure out how to maximize what we deemed were positive qualities, we could better see how they'd fit into life as a whole and then remove some from the list if they were no longer feasible or the bad outweighed the good.

Earlier in this thread (I think it was here) I made the point of trying to do this on a smaller scale in B.C. when we move there. For example, I like the idea of having a particular place -- say a rock in the midst of a large park -- that whoever (of a collective of parents and their children) feels like it on a given day goes to meet at say, noon. The children can mix and explore nature while the parents do the same and share in taking care of them. The collective of parents and children would be in frequent contact with each other. They would lean on each other, trade things, help each other out, spend a lot of time in each other's homes, have many shared functions and events, talk about self improvement together, and see some members of the group on a daily, or near-daily, basis. Some of them would also be involved in homeschooling together. This is not an extended family, but it would help to bring about some of the benefits that an extended family brings without much of the negative aspects (like having my cranky mom live with me. EEEK.). With a vision statement and shared ideals -- discussed at monthly meetings or whatever -- each parent involved would be entitled to do more to GD the other children and the children wouldn't be exposed to negative parent-child interactions like threats and condescension (sp?). Ideal, yes, but an ideal vision is the place to start so that we have a target to aim at (I'm really loving Aristotle today -- the archery metaphor is from him).

So would it have been better to just have the same discussion without the word culture or references to other people? Talk instead about other ways? What are those of us who are unhappy with the Canadian/American-type ways of life to turn to? Must we restrict ourselves to literature that is completely fictional? I guess I'm not fully seeing what is problematic about discussing what might work in other places to keep tantrums to a minimum. I don't have any ridiculous notions that these other cultures are perfect or that the people in them are all the same. I don't even really have a specific culture in mind. They certainly aren't what I'd call savages either. Nor would I consider them noble. They, whoever this applies to -- I really haven't a clue -- seem to get something right though. If their toddlers are generally pleased and content and seldom tantrum, I'd like to know about that so that I can think about what might be causing it and what might be going wrong here where frequent tantrums each day is not unheard of.

I don't have a problem with getting out pent up emotions. But I do think there might be something wrong if emotions keep getting pent up. If Simon gets very frustrated over a toy every time he plays with it, we remove it and try again in a month or so. I see no benefit of recreating situations that cause stress to the child. He will learn how to deal with frustrations without having to endure it needlessly. Learning how to cope with frustrations is normal, but freaking out on the floor several times every day for weeks or months still makes me think that something might be off in the way that child is living, and it is causing her or him to be under too much stress and to feel too powerless.
Dal is offline  
#80 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 07:29 PM
 
irinam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Fran Bay Area, California
Posts: 1,993
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flor
When a PP listed attributes of another culture that were very vague, I didnt' even think she was listing attributes of another ethnic/geographical group, I thought she was listing aspects of a hippie/commune kinda culture in North America so it didn't strike me as racist. I know people who live within that subculture.
Thank you. Thank you for being able to put *my* thoughts into words (just in case - no sarcasm here! tone of voice is kinda hard to type :LOL )

You are right, I think the whole idea of this topic was not to bash or praise any culture. It's about toddler and tantrums and what maybe our neighbours are doing that might be better then what we practice...

Dal, I loved your well thought-out post. Can I live in the community you are describing? Please? :
irinam is offline  
#81 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 08:47 PM
 
Britishmum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: USA
Posts: 4,195
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmaramba
Tantrums start out because the child is frustrated, etc. and can't express himself.
I think this is a common misconception about tantrums.

Both my children spoke in sentences at age 12 months. Dd#1 just about never tantrumed. Dd#2 tantrums many times some days. Yet by the age of 2 she had the language of many 4 or 5 year olds. She can express herself remarkably well, even in the midst of a tantrum. :LOL

I think there is a misconception also about tantrums being when a child is opposed by an adult. Again, ime this is not true. Dd#2 can tantrum when there is nobody else in the room. She can tantrum at the very thought of something that bugs her. And it can be something that didnt bother her in the slightest the day before.

I think we can be too quick to explain things as being results of our parenting - it is a fairly common theme, for example, on mdc, to read a mother's exasperated plea about 'what went wrong' when she did 'everything right' in AP terms. Or another mdc mother patting herself on the back for her child never tantruming, or being superconfident and polite, or (fill in the gap) because she did all the AP stuff 'right'. Or, alternatively, the tale of a terrible child at the playground doing stuff 'wrong' because his mother was 'so mainstream'.

I used to partly buy into this stuff. Three kids later, I know that it is not that simple. There is this little X factor, called personality. I can give guidance, and I can help them to learn to manage their frustrations and emotions, but I cannot change the three little personalities in my house.
Britishmum is offline  
#82 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 09:13 PM
 
mommyofshmoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks, Britishmum for your point. Well put.
mommyofshmoo is offline  
#83 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 09:28 PM
 
 twostraightlines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 86
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dal-
You HAVE to read the book Mating by Norman Rush. It is a novel about a utopian society set up in which women are in charge. It is my favorite book of all time. Look me up if you read it (or anyone else too!), I've never known anyone who read it to discuss it with...
twostraightlines is offline  
#84 of 86 Old 06-03-2005, 09:30 PM
 
meemee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Norther California
Posts: 12,620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dal
I guess I'm not fully seeing what is problematic about discussing what might work in other places to keep tantrums to a minimum.
when u try to do that u kinda search for answers that fit ur question. it is v. hard to look at the whole picture and deduce from them.

for instance say u note that children in a particular culture (this is purely hypothetical) hold their babies a lot so u assume if u too sling ur baby u shouldnt see so many tantrums. u see all those moms working in the fields with silent babies so the sling should be it. well that is part of the reason. but other factors are there too. the child is growing up in a rich environment with extended family. when the mom gets home different hands take teh baby. they may not constantly entertian the baby but the baby is part of their daily life playing by himself and enjoying the adult humdrum of activity around. money is short but the parents philosophy is have to do with what i have. u become religioius. u accept things. yes my child is dying due to lack of treatment but i have to accept this as the higher powers wish. i have to stay calm and not get hysterical because i have the whole family to take care of. so even though the circumstances are stressful the parents can keep the stress away. you are not constantly in a rush to do things, to make things happen. u r not on a schedule running from pillar to post.

so it is better to look at the facets of a culture - of any tribe and see what is their philosophy. u look at their parenting as a whole instead of a few features. then u see how their children turn out. instead of the other way around. why do they do carry their baby so much. they may themselves not have a direct answer (theyve never had to think of it) but they would guess because then the baby doesnt cry that much.

the things i feel that are wrong in this country - which is what creates a problem - are not deliberate but that's just how life turned out. for instance many children dont like schedules. they dont like going to bed at 9. they prefer when they are tired. but they have to go to daycare the next morning so they have to go to sleep by 9.

now if the govt. gave tax breaks and incentives to parents so that it is easy for one of them to stay home (if that is their choice) then we would probably see better parenting. i mean 6 - 8 weeks maternity leave as opposed to canada's yearly parental leave is just ridiculous. so really slinging maynot be the answer. easing tension - making places child friendly - like some grocery stores having supervised child care areas - will make this country a better place to raise children. instead of just focusing on childbirth classes there should be more focus on parenting classes so that a parent understands appropriate age behaviour adn learns why tantrums happen so they can think of GD themselves. wish there was an adopt a grandparent program where a family can 'adopt' an elderly person (of course it kinda has to be like a dating service matching program) as i find is so important for children to have exposure to various age groups. plus u r meeting the needs of lonely people too. if we can do something on these lines and pay more attention to our children (and i dont mean MDC but esp. the mainstream out there - many of whom just dont know and have no guidance of how to be parents) then we may not see so much of violence we see in young juveniles today.

the other day some friends accompanied us to teh park. i was exhausted at teh end of my work day. if i was there with my dd just by myself i would have played a little bit with her but then sat down and let her play by herself. instead these adult friends just played like little kids with my dd, doing funny things, creating new games, chasing, climbing nonclimable areas. it was awesome. when they were ready to call it a day my dd did not fight going home. she had been physically and mentally challenged. so she took a bath and went to sleep. if it had been just her and me i would have had a hard time putting her to bed. now i could have done the same things as my friends but i was exhausted. i could not come up with more ideas at teh end of the day. but they brought in their unique perspective, thier energy and freshness which my dd enjoyed. so instead of throwing a tantrum at teh mention of pjs she willingly did the whole routine and went to bed.

hope this makes sense.

 treehugger.gif Co-parent, joy.gifcold.gifbrand new homeschooling middle schoolerjoy.gif, and an attackcat.gif 
meemee is offline  
#85 of 86 Old 06-04-2005, 10:15 PM
 
mmaramba's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Britishmum-- Very insightful. I am still new to all this, so now that I think about it, maybe, instead of saying: "Tantrums start out because the child is frustrated, etc. and can't express himself," I should qualify that and say that that is *sometimes* why tantrums start.

I guess it seems that tantrums are a result of frustration, to some great degree. But... Now I don't know.

I think back to when I was a kid... A very sensitive child... Now, I didn't tend to tantrum when I couldn't get ice cream, or some such, but I was a perfectionist and got very tantrumy when I didn't get things "right." (Obviously there were other things going on there, but I'll focus on the tantrums themselves right now).

I was also a highly-verbal kid, reading at age 3 1/2, started Kindergarten at 4, etc.

I think that any "fits" I had (and I should say that they were mostly self-flagellating, not yelling at my parents, or anything) were *definitely* the result of frustration (and obviously, lack of acceptance of "failure," too-high expectations, etc).

I think they also had something to do with my not being able to express myself or get out of the tunnel-vision of perfectionism.

I think it *did* have something to do with not being able to express myself, actually. Not in the way or on the level that I *wanted* to express myself, anyway.

Look, I was reading H.G. Wells' "War of the Worlds" when I was an 8-year-old fourth-grader. But I *still* didn't have the words-- or more accurately, the ability-- to express my frustration in *any* way, really... "productive" or "unproductive"... I knew it was "irrational," I guess, but it had a substance to it... just couldn't get a handle on that substance-- couldn't quite express it-- without crying and screaming sometimes.

And then, screaming and crying was expressing *something* but never really resolving anything. Not that tantrums can't be cathartic, but when they *keep* happening, and don't make you feel better, and... just result in more tantrums, then maybe there *is* something deeper there. (Like there was for me-- the too-high expectations thing was never fundamentally addressed).

Not accusing anyone here of anything, but just thinking... Maybe tantrums are like anything else: developmental, not inherently "bad" or "good." BUT, SOMETIMES, if they are like those I described above, they can be problematic. They might really be "bad," or something to be addressed, if they have certain features or progress along certain lines.

Like depression. Nothing wrong with having bad moods, or occasionally suffering one or more of the symptoms. But when it's a pervasive pattern of 5+ symptoms that interfere with your daily life, last for at least 6 weeks, yadda yadda, then there IS a problem. YKWIM? I mean, I'm sure that's obvious, and I'm just sounding pedantic now.

I still am not 100% Zen about my perfectionist issues, but I didn't even *really* start addressing my extreme frustration/"fits" until I was in therapy at age 16 or so. Not that this applies to every "tantrum" situation, and I agree with a PP that said no human ever really stops tantruming, but...

Don't know.

Still mulling this over...
mmaramba is offline  
#86 of 86 Old 06-05-2005, 08:53 AM
 
IncaMama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,306
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i think that kids tantrum for different reasons. every kid is different. some will get frustrated bc they can't communicate, some will get frustrated bc of perfectionism, some will tantrum when they're hungry, some when they're tired, some just "because"...every single child in the universe is unique and i don't think that we can really ever 100% accurately generalize about something as complex as the human mind and its manifestations (as behaviors).

that being said, i think that there are also differences in the way that parents respond to these tantrums. for some, it's a big deal, it's embarrassing, it tells them that they're "failling", etc...for others (like my family in south america that i mentioned before), it says absolutely nothing about themselves and is just a part of life that is nurtured as much as any other aspect. i think that the way we as parents react to tantrums can have an impact on how much they occur in the future or how far they escalate in the moment. again, no one way is the "right" way...some kids need to be held, some kids need their own space. so to say that there is ONE right way to handle a tantrum is just as ridiculous as saying that there is ONE reason that tantrums occur.

i guess that's another reason why it's dangerous to talk about cultural differences in these general ways...it boils down to individual differences most of the time, and of course those individual differences are influenced by cultural norms/expectations/socialization...but if you drop me in a foreign culture...the "noble savage" home...i'm still gonna get frustrated when i get frustrated here...and i'm still gonna have the same hangups that i do here...i'll have different resources, but it won't change who i *am*.

i think it's useful for us as parents to find other strategies and try to incorporate them in our lives...but it is also very important to remember that we are all beautifully unique. and what works brilliantly for some families is a disaster for another. it makes the most sense to take our cues from what *our* children need, not what OTHER children and families need in "other cultures". it's great for me to use babyslinging (which i learned from south america), but it's inaccurate to assume that it will solve my problems as a parent. it's another tool to try with my son and future children...but *they* will show me if it's a useful one for our family. some kids hate slings. it happens.

so....that's what i've been thinking.
IncaMama is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off