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#61 of 154 Old 08-07-2005, 01:02 AM
 
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What a thought provoking thread!

I'll have to chime in later when I've had more sleep. BTW Dragonfly, I like - and agree with - what you've said here. (Maybe there's not much I can add after all!)
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#62 of 154 Old 08-07-2005, 04:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
[B]I am not saying that there is anything wrong with being a permissive parent. SOme children fluorish in such environments. I suppose the possibility (however remote) that I will use punishment to back up my discipline when all else fails is what I consider to be the "backbone" in my parenting technique. Whereas Authoritarian parent would never "pick their battles", because they must always be in control. (brick wall, no choices)
Authoritarian parents seek to have ultimate control in all things.
Authroitative parents pick their battles. They will stand firm on a few things that they consider very important and will let the smallies slide.
I agree with this last statement. I think where we disconnect, though, is that you see a parent who does not impose contrived consequences as "permissive" whereas I know that I'm anything but permissive.

I've also read Coloroso's book (where the "jellyfish," "backbone," and "brick wall" concepts come from) and very much take what she says to heart. I don't remember her advocating false consequences for a child, though. I do remember her saying that where there are consequences, it's a parent's job to help a child figure out how to deal with them and, where a child messes up, it's a parent's job to help them figure out how to fix it.


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model and explain and role play and do everything right. And still our kids will make some bad choices. Even good kids.
I believe in GD with my whole heart. And I make it a rule to never be arbitrary with my children (so that they never have a reason to see me as being unreasonable). And If reasoning and talking does the trick, I would never have to stoop to punishment.
Facing the result of the bad choices is where so much learning happens, though. Of course, if the result is going to be threatening to the child's long-term well-being, then you want to head it off at the pass (though I think there may be other ways to do this than punishment - provided that the parent-child relationship isn't incredibly frustrated in some way). Otherwise, what's wrong with a kid taking the knocks?

Have to come back later - work in need of attention.
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#63 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 03:22 PM
 
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I have never read "Coloroso" but the metaphor of the jellyfish, backbone, and brick wall are not uncommon and are based on the whole permissive, authoritative (also sometimes called cooperative) and authoritarian which just seem to show up in every discipline book/parenting book/parenting magazine. etc. . I dont know who first thought of them. It is irrelevant. But I think that they are pretty good descriptions.

As far as what is wrong with a kid "taking the knocks" well sometimes I take the knocks because I am the mom and the consequences of my child's behavior falls on me and not them unless I impose them on them.
If my child throws food all over the dinette. There is no natural consequence to him, so letting him "take the knocks" means absolutely nothing. There are no knocks. And for beating up his sister, again there are no natural consequences unless you count waiting till she reaches puberty first and can pummel him. If my child makes it difficult to impossible to grocery shop or enjoy a restaurant, again I am the one taking the knocks. There are no natural consequences.
So when it comes to shaping behavior, every time my child's behavior gives me a consequence instead of him, it is my job to, shall we say, apply an a fitting consequence appropriate to him becaue I take what society and life gives and give it to my child in small and reasonable amounts. I get the privilege of catching his consequences for him and bringing them down to his size.
If my child runs into the street "taking the knocks" means being flattenned by a car. If my teenager decides to try drugs "taking the knocks" can mean an addiction, lost brain cells, school failure, death by overdose.
If my teenager decides to lie about her whereabouts and roam the streets at a late hour the consequences could be kidnapping and rape. Robbery. Arrest for curfew violation.

I am certain that you feel you are no where near permissive in the same way I feel that I am no where near authoritarian. So I suppose we are both authoritative (cooperative) in two very different ways.

This has been a very interesting discussion.
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#64 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 05:10 PM
 
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Let's take a look at some of the different ways a parent could respond to one of the situations you mentioned.

Let's say a child continues to throw food during dinner, even though they know mom doesn't like it.

Permissive (or self-sacrificing) mom- Just cleans it up.

Authorataive (or cooperative) mom- Talks with child about why he/she wants to throw the food. They work to find a creative solution together (that's why it's called cooperative ), such as eating outside, child cleaning up the food, throwing something else instead, etc.

Authoratarian mom- imposes punishment for throwing food.
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#65 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 05:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momoffour
Let's take a look at some of the different ways a parent could respond to one of the situations you mentioned.

Let's say a child continues to throw food during dinner, even though they know mom doesn't like it.

Permissive (or self-sacrificing) mom- Just cleans it up.

Authorataive (or cooperative) mom- Talks with child about why he/she wants to throw the food. They work to find a creative solution together (that's why it's called cooperative ), such as eating outside, child cleaning up the food, throwing something else instead, etc.

Authoratarian mom- imposes punishment for throwing food.

Well I would not do ANY of these. I would continue to make my displeasure known. I would continue to make my expectation that they NOT throw food known.

I would say in a low steely voice "DO not throw your food, it makes a mess" I would also give only small amounts at a time.

So where in the heck do you think I fit in???????????????????/
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#66 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 06:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momoffour
Let's take a look at some of the different ways a parent could respond to one of the situations you mentioned.

Let's say a child continues to throw food during dinner, even though they know mom doesn't like it.

Permissive (or self-sacrificing) mom- Just cleans it up.

Authorataive (or cooperative) mom- Talks with child about why he/she wants to throw the food. They work to find a creative solution together (that's why it's called cooperative ), such as eating outside, child cleaning up the food, throwing something else instead, etc.

Authoratarian mom- imposes punishment for throwing food.
I would sort these quite differently

Permissive- would clean it up and tell the child that it is not allowed. But not actually do anything to stop the behavoir. Perhaps beleiving it will stop when the child has outgrown it or when the child internalizes the parents expectations.

Authoritative- Would attempt in every way to get the child to voluntarily cooperate in stopping throwing the food. BUt if child persists the parent still has the "authority" to stop it by imposing a time out.

Authoritarian- Would slap the child's hand each and eveyr time the child throws food. Or take the plate away each and eveyr time the child throws food from the beginning of solids. The child never explores with his food or throws it as a developmental stage that is accepted because it is important to the parents he never do it in the first place. (Think Gary Ezzo)

If a last resort timeout is Authoritarian where to people like Gary Ezzo or The Pearls fit in?

Joline
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#67 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 06:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
I
If a last resort timeout is Authoritarian where to people like Gary Ezzo or The Pearls fit in?
Abusive? Criminal? Sociopathic?
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#68 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 06:24 PM
 
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Ok this is a total hijack, sorry in advance. Let me preface by saying I love gentle discipline and I want nothing else for my famiyl and for Kailey.

She has been attending an awesome, respectful childcarecenter for nearly two years. Most days out of those two years she hits, kicks, screams, scratches and spits at her teacher and playmates. I am the teacher in the afterschool room. She is on the verge of being kicked out. We redirect, offer choices, assess the situation, etc. Why does she do these things? Because she forgets to use herwords to tell herfriends to leave her alone, or because she can't say what she wants. BUT, what about all of us who are having to deal with her???? I am at my wits end. Today was the final straw. She was screaming, and I reminded her to use her words and ask me for help. Instead she continued her blood curdling scream. I took her away from her friends, reminded her to use her words, even GAVE her words to use, and she chose to scream. I spanked her(not in front of anyone) and of course she screamed that angry scream again. I took her to another room explaining to her that she was hurting our ears, to please use her words, and then she could come back when she was calm. I sat her in a comfy chair, and...she started violently kicking the door. The other children were shocked into silence. I removed her from that room and took her to an empty room where I had to sit silently or I would have really spanked her. She was plum out of control and she just CANNOT do this at school! So MY BOSS said she would give us one week or we would have to find other care. We cant offered other care

So, what now? For TWO years she has done this crap and I am so F***ING tired of it!

Any ideas?
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#69 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 06:43 PM
 
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http://www.devpsy.org/teaching/paren...nd_styles.html

You all might find the original definitions of "Permissive" "Authoritarian" and "Authoritative" interesting.
These are the original definitions described by Diana Baumrind in 1967.
These are also the working definitions used in any of the studies relating to "parenting style".

{Permissive ... to behave in an acceptant and affirmative manner towards the child's impulses. desires. and actions. She [the parent] consults with him [the child] about policy decisions and gives explanations for family rules. She makes few demands for household responsibility and orderly behavior. She presents herself to the child as a resource for him to use as he wishes, not as an active agent responsible for shaping or altering his ongoing or future behavior. She allows the child to regulate his own activities as much as possible, avoids the exercise of control, and does not encourage him to obey externally defined standards. She attempts to use reason but not overt power to accomplish her ends.

Authoritarian ... to shape, control, and evaluate the behavior and attitudes of the child in accordance with a set of standards of conduct, usually an absolute standard, theologically motivated and formulated by a higher authority. She [the parent] values obedience as a virtue and favors punitive, forceful measures to curb self-will at points where the child's actions of beliefs conflict with what she think is right conduct. She believes in inculcating such instrumental values as respect for authority, respect for work, and respect for the preservation of order and traditional structure. She does not encourage verbal give and take, believing that the child should accept her word for what is right.

Authoritative ... to direct the child's activities but in a rational issue-oriented way. She [the parent] encourages verbal give and take, and shares with the child the reasoning behind her policy. She values both expressive and instrumental attributes, both autonomous self-will and disciplined conformity. Therefore she exerts firm control at points of parent-child divergence, but she does not hem the child in with restrictions. She recognizes her own special rights as an adult but also the child's individual interests and special ways. The authoritative parent affirms the child's present qualities, but also sets standards for future conduct. She uses reasoning as well as power to achieve her objectives. She does not base her decision on group consensus or the individual child's desires; but also does not regard herself as infallible, or divinely inspired.}


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#70 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 06:55 PM
 
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OOOPS see below.
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#71 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 07:01 PM
 
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You said that "permissive" is this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by johub



Permissive: Would clean it up and tell the child that it is not allowed. But not actually do anything to stop the behavoir. Perhaps beleiving it will stop when the child has outgrown it or when the child internalizes the parents expectations.


Joline
But then you also said it was defined this way:

{Permissive ... to behave in an acceptant and affirmative manner towards the child's impulses. desires. and actions. She [the parent] consults with him [the child] about policy decisions and gives explanations for family rules. She makes few demands for household responsibility and orderly behavior. She presents herself to the child as a resource for him to use as he wishes, not as an active agent responsible for shaping or altering his ongoing or future behavior. She allows the child to regulate his own activities as much as possible, avoids the exercise of control, and does not encourage him to obey externally defined standards. She attempts to use reason but not overt power to accomplish her ends.


Telling a child that something is not allowed is NOT behaving in an "acceptant and affirmative manner. It is not "consulting" about policy decisions. It is not "making few demands". It is not failing to "encourage him to obey"

I do what you said in that I tell my children what is not allowed but don't punish. Yet I don'tconsult with them about the rules (at a young age). I do make many demands. I do strongly encourage them to obey my standards. I just don't punish.

That is not permissave under the "experts" defintion that you quoted. Why is it under yours?
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#72 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 07:07 PM
 
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yeah, but isn't Baumrind pro-spanking?

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't there something in Unconditional Parenting about how her studies were skewed? I think it was something like this- she didn't differentiate between the "permissive" parents who simply didn't care, or didn't take the time to teach or discipline and the "permissive" parents who DID discipline and take the time to teach their children, albeit without force or punishment (ie they made a conscious decision that was the right way to parent as opposed to just doing what was easiest). A different researcher looked at Baumrind's data and found that once the two groups were divided, the group that did discipline has results very similar to the group of "authoritative" parents.
Ok, if I'm wrong please tell me! This is from memory.
I personally don't see anything wrong with her definitnion of permissive!! lol (as far as it being a bad way to raise kids)

Quote from pp Baumrind's authoritative parent (my bold): She [the parent] values obedience as a virtue and favors punitive, forceful measures to curb self-will at points where the child's actions of beliefs conflict with what she think is right conduct.

ewww. I don't like that! I'd way rather be what she considers permissive!! lol

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#73 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 07:50 PM
 
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My son is 2.5. I do my best not to respond in any way that feels like punishment, because I don't think it's the best way that he learns. I also do my best not to give "rewards" because I don't want his incentive to be "good" to be getting a reward. I also try not to use the words "good" or "bad" in relation to behavior. I do use "uh oh !" when there is a problem - it seems more to me like I'm stating "there is a problem" than assigning blame. When DS is doing something that is not acceptable (mean to dogs, jumping on couch, throwing hard objects, etc) I interrupt him and sit him down with him and we take a time out together and talk about why it's not ok. Sometimes he's upset at being interrupted, and sometimes there are tears, but it's not a punitive, isolating time out. When he's done something that creates a situation that can be fixed, I tell him how to fix it. Sometimes I show him how to fix it and we fix it together. I want him to learn these skills on the inside, not just to respond to rules being applied from the outside.

I've read several really good books that have helped me a lot:
Loving Your Child is Not Enough (Samalin)
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk (Faber, Mazlish)
Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline (Bailey)
Unconditional Parenting (Kohn)
Kids Are Worth It (Coloroso)
Hold On To Your Kids (Neufeld, Mate)

Out of all this reading, the things that have stuck out to me the most and been the most helpful for me are first, giving DS the benefit of the doubt of having a positive intent - this change of perception has tremendous power. Another is to give DS a way to save face and maintain his dignity in all situations - this helps me to find ways for him to dig himself out of a hole as opposed to me just shaming him for being in it. Another is to address how he is feeling as a whole at the time, not just the specific behavior...this can go a long way in preventive discipline too, heading off trouble before it starts. And when I am telling him something is not ok and that I won't let him continue it, I always explain why. I'm not set out on convincing him - I don't expect him to necessarily agree with me - but I think having an explanation goes further toward teaching internal discipline than me just making an unexplained decision.

Linda B

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#74 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 08:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
Announcing how we plan to punish children ("Remember, if you do x then I'll do y to you") may salve our conscience because we gave them fair warning, but all we've really done is threaten them. We've told them in advance exactly how we'll make them suffer if they fail to obey. This communicates a message of distrust ("I don't think you'll do the right thing without fear of punishment"), leads kids to think of themselves as complying for extrinsic reasons, and emphasizes their powerlessness

I am a fan of a lot of what Alfie Kohn has to say, but I do not really think his perception of what it means to be a child in this situation is the only way.
For example to tell a child that if they contiinue to do X, Y is going to happen, it gives the child a choice. "You can choose to control yourself, but if you dont I am going to have to help you."
I really dont believe in parenting on the couch with threats, which is what I think he is implying. The above statement is reminiscent of "Dont make me turn this car around. . ."
However, knowing consequences doesnt in my opinion emphasize the childs powerlessness. It reminds the child that they are powerful enough to choose their own future. It is empowering to be able to predict the consequences of their actions with accuracy.
I think that a child is more likely to feel insecure when he does not feel capable of controlling his own actions and there is nobody there to be his safety net and help him stop himself.
In fact I will go so far as to say I have actually seen my daughter practically BEG for punishment. Growing up is very hard to do. At about the time she was turning 13 I was giving her a lot of freedom and benefit of the doubt. I am afraid it was more freedom that she was prepared to handle. She ended up getting in big trouble, and you can hardly imagine the relief on her face when I told her she was grounded. Acting out was her way of begging me to show her that she was not expected to be 100% responsible for herself yet and that I was still there to guide her. Would you believe she was happier during the time she was grounded than she had been in the preceeding weeks when she was constantly pulled in different directions by friends and different influences?
I also do not punish my oldest for your run of the mill stuff. But I would not leave punishment out of my parenting toolkit entirely.
Joline

I'm way over my head in this conversation because I simply have not read the books being talked about and I don't consider what I do GD. I have a 3.5 year old who is beautiful and bright and witty.. but very defiant. She's started to become very aggressive in seeing how much control she has and has been refusing to do what is expected over her. No amount of "showing disapproval" makes any difference to her. She is very much in her own world and mommy and daddy's approval are nowhere near as important to her now as it was a year ago. I've found myself getting louder and louder and she spends far too much time in "time out" . Both of which are totally ineffective. We are good enough parents to realize that some of her behavior is due to OUR behavior.. my yelling and my husbands giving "orders" (get in your seat NOW, put that in the trash NOW") So we're taking a step back and trying to work on those things and find what works for our family. Once we've mastered that, we'll go onto other things. Everyone has to grow as a parent and trying to make too many changes at once is just too much. So many things make sense in theory, but totally flop in reality.

The posts by jphub seem to really make the most sense for us. I could see myself shooting for no dicipline (and falling short), but my husband just isn't that kind of person. He is a VERY gentle parent, but he 100% believes in limits and consequences etc.. and no amount of reading will change his mind. We've simply gotten off course with our goals and let our emotions get away with us and the habit of yelling and threatening etc... Like most parents I would assume.

I just wanted to say that johub's posts are really encouraging to me that there is a way to parent gently while still enforcing some limits. My daughter practically BEGS to know when to stop. If she knows there are consequences (such is life) besides my disapproval, she's much more likely to reason out her options and choose one that's good, not only for her, but for everyone around her. I want to provide for her some structure within which she can weigh her choices. She is too young to have limitless choices. If she is on the table with a broken leg and I ask her to get down because it's dangerous and she says no, I WILL remove her from the table myself. I don't care to bully my child, but I do care to let her know that her freedom to make certain choices is to be earned.. not just given.

I read a book one time .. love and logic I think. And there was a single point that makes SO much sense to me. The book talks a lot about giving choices. About a pyramid. That many parents tend to have a pyramid that is big on the bottom representing how many choices and the magnitude of the choices the child is able to make. So, as a newborn, the child gets to call all the shots. Then, the parent might see that the child isn't ready for so much responsibility, so they limit the choices and as the child gets older, the parent keeps limiting the number of decisions the child is able to make. So that once they are on their own, they are fairly clueless about how to make decisions.. their reasoning powers are limited. Instead, the books suggests that you shoot for more of an upsidedown pyramid. When they are infants, you decide what they eat, what they wear, where they play etc.. And as they get older, you give them small choices "would you like to wear your coat or carry it?" so they have a chance to learn how to reason, learn from small mistakes (instead of bigger ones later) and as they grow, the kinds of choices they are allowed to make increase so by the time they are away from home, they know how to make choices. Their reasoning skills are strong, and they've taken a few small knocks in order to learn and avoid more painful mistakes later. That's the one that that sticks with me. Some choices are NOT age appropriate. If my 3.5 year old chooses not to wash her hands after playing in the indoor playground, she could become very ill That's not a choice she should be allowed to make. It is for her safety. So, when she refuses to wash her hands, despite my explaining that it will help keep her healthy,and after giving her the choice between washing them with warm or cold water. I feel it is my DUTY as a parent to impose more than just a disapproving look or attitude. She isn't ready to fully grasp what being "sick" is and, it affects the ENTIRE family.. not just her. Since the natural consequences are not within her ability to comprehend, isn't it my job to make some consequences that she can understand? "wash your hands to remove the germs or we cannot eat our snack because our snack will get germs on it" and if she STILL refuses (which my daughter does quite often) then I have to choose something else. "wash your hands or I will wash your hands because I do not want you to get sick" Yup.. I do and plan to bully my child into washing her hands if need be. As she gets older and can comprehend better those consequences, that will be her decision to make. But not right now. I'm all for explaining and teaching and helping kids to reason, but I'm also for making decisions for my child when they are not yet capable of handling certain decisions.

Anyway.. that got long. I really just wanted to ask johub if she had any recommended reading for someone like me who wants to parent gently but still create boundaries. I would love to change the way I parent to reduce the conflict and open communications, but I'm not ready to totally forgo all dicipline. Dicipline is a fact of our society. If I get stopped for speading, the cop doesn't just give me a disapproving look and explain to me how he doesn't approve of what I've done. He does sometimes remind me that speeding can cause accidents and isn't safe. But in the end, the part that gets me to stop speeding is that I'm being punished to some degree. I have to pay a fine and get points on my license. I really want my children to understand that there ARE rules that MUST be followed because it's good for our society. There ARE rules that MUST be followed because it's good for our family. And while I KNOW some families are able to acheive this without dicipline, I also know that my family isn't one of them. So, any suggested reading that is on the gentler side of parenting without going no dicipline at all would be very much apprecaited.

VERY interesting thread!
Really opening my eyes.

Amber
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#75 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 08:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deva33mommy
Quote from pp Baumrind's authoritative parent (my bold): She [the parent] values obedience as a virtue and favors punitive, forceful measures to curb self-will at points where the child's actions of beliefs conflict with what she think is right conduct.

ewww. I don't like that! I'd way rather be what she considers permissive!! lol
Actually that's from the authoritarian definition. I was confused at first, too, because the terms are in a different order in that excerpt than the way they usually are. (They're usually presented as a continuum with authoritative in the middle.) It took me a minute, because I read it and went, "She thinks authoritative parents favor punitive, forceful measures to curb self-will?!"

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#76 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 08:54 PM
 
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I do what you said in that I tell my children what is not allowed but don't punish. Yet I don'tconsult with them about the rules (at a young age). I do make many demands. I do strongly encourage them to obey my standards. I just don't punish.

That is not permissave under the "experts" defintion that you quoted. Why is it under yours?


But it is all opinions.
If your child chooses to continue to disobey, you accept rather than punish.
In the final end of the deal. The child decides. The parent does not impose his or her will on the child.
Your way may not seem like permissive at all when you have a child who is willingly compliant. In fact, with some children this is the perfect method of parenting.
As a child I NEVER needed to be punished because if my mom just said "Joline
you shouldnt have done that" and it was all over. I was a mess of tears because I was as compliant by nature as possible. I couldn't bear the thought of my mothers disappointment.
For children of this temperament, a persmissive style is adequate because they dont push boundaries by nature.
So if your child has no inclination to willfully disobey. "encouraging" them to obey is enough.
On the outside it looks the same. You have a willingly obedient child, and very little problems.
If your child was of a different temperament, you might find the outcome from this type of parenting to look quite differently. (more permissive for example)


It doesnt really matter what my opinon is.
All I am trying to say is taht while YOU may think that anybody who punishes at all is Authoritarian. That is not the definition of authoritarian.
You can choose to call it what you will.

Joline
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#77 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 08:56 PM
 
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<<<A very young child might take a lot of repition to understand they are hurting. ......But if an older child was hurting an animal for fun I would have them psychologically evaluated.>>>

what is the demarcation line between "a very young child" and "and older child"?
what if the child is 4.5? in this example, my son would very well keep "hurting" (put in quotes because in your example you mentioned that it might not actually hurt the dog at all, if it hasn't run away) the dog if he knows it might irritate me, or knows it's wrong...it doesn't matter at this point if the dog is actually being hurt, a child still needs to learn not to _try_ to hurt things or hit things.
there are plenty of times my son does X to other people and i say "DS, don't do X, try Y instead" and the person says "oh, it's ok"-- and i say "i appreciate that, but he still needs to learn Y".

i am far from finishing this thread and i will keep reading with interest (i'm only on page 2) but just thought i'd chime in with that idea.

pamela

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#78 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 09:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
[I]
But it is all opinions.
If your child chooses to continue to disobey, you accept rather than punish.

No, I don't "accept" it. I continue to expect them to obey. I have not told them in any way that it is okay NOT to obey. The expectation of obeyance remains firmly in place. Punishment is not the only way to show a child you believe his behavior is unaccpetable.

Whether a child is "compliant' or not is irrelevant. Even children who are punished do not always obey. I simply beleive that punishement is wrong because I believe that inflicting suffering on my child for no purpose but to "make him pay" for his disobedience is wrong.
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#79 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 10:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Deva33mommy
I think it was something like this- she didn't differentiate between the "permissive" parents who simply didn't care, or didn't take the time to teach or discipline and the "permissive" parents who DID discipline and take the time to teach their children, albeit without force or punishment (ie they made a conscious decision that was the right way to parent as opposed to just doing what was easiest).
It certainly seems that way from her definition of "permissive."
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#80 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 10:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
No, I don't "accept" it. I continue to expect them to obey. I have not told them in any way that it is okay NOT to obey. The expectation of obeyance remains firmly in place. Punishment is not the only way to show a child you believe his behavior is unaccpetable.

Whether a child is "compliant' or not is irrelevant. Even children who are punished do not always obey. I simply beleive that punishement is wrong because I believe that inflicting suffering on my child for no purpose but to "make him pay" for his disobedience is wrong.


These are very important points. Punishment is not guaranteed to create obedient children. (And, when it does, it's important to consider the long-term price of that obedience).

Also, it's extremely important to remember in a conversation like this that there are many ways to show children that you don't appreciate their behavior. It doesn't require imposing your will on them. Occasionally my son gets crazy and starts treating my body like a jungle gym. I was pretty tolerant of this when he was a 17-lb. toddler. Now that he's a 40lb. almost-5-year-old, it hurts and it irritates the heck out of me. When he starts, I'll let him know that it's not okay with me and that I expect him to find something else to climb on. If he continues, I'll remove myself - stand up and leave the area, go sit on the counter, something. He gets the picture.

He's not a "compliant" child, by any means. He's forever seeing how far he can take things. But he is exceedingly more cooperative as he gets older and I think it's probably because I've always stressed cooperation - without being a doormat.

Btw, I agree with many of you that too many choices for a very small child is too much responsibility. It seems that what many parents tend to do, though, is to go to the opposite end of the spectrum and really underestimate what their children are capable of handling (while also expecting too much of them in terms of behavior). And I'm no exception. It's something I've struggled with a lot. I've found, though, that the less I micromanage my child and the more I reign in my expectations to be developmentally appropriate, the more harmonious life is in our home.
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#81 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 10:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tippytoes26
If she is on the table with a broken leg and I ask her to get down because it's dangerous and she says no, I WILL remove her from the table myself. I don't care to bully my child, but I do care to let her know that her freedom to make certain choices is to be earned.. not just given.
I wouldn't see that as bullying; I would see it as protecting. I have to say, though, that your last statement seems out of place to me... but I'm sure that's just because I have a different perspective on this whole thing. When I read the first part, I thought, "Yeah, I'd remove her, too. It's incredibly unsafe and she probably isn't capable of understanding the extent of harm that could come from it." But why is it about telling her that she has limited freedom in choice-making? That's more of an authoritarian mindset. Why isn't it just about letting her know that you're looking out for her and will help her not to endanger herself?

Sorry if I'm picking that apart too much. It just seems like an odd statement.
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#82 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 10:41 PM
 
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So, no one has any actual ideas for me? It's all about reading books and no practical experience? I'm beginning to believe GD is wonderul in theory, but no one i know has any REAL experience(on MDC anyway). Why is that?
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#83 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 10:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva
So, no one has any actual ideas for me? It's all about reading books and no practical experience? I'm beginning to believe GD is wonderul in theory, but no one i know has any REAL experience(on MDC anyway). Why is that?
The hard thing is that you say you like GD, but you say you spanked your dd, so you aren't currently using GD. And you want results within a week. I personally think it would take more than a week to undo any negative feelings from being spanked and get her back "on your team".
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#84 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 11:05 PM
 
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A week? Excuse me? *I* don't want results in a week, my boss is giving me a week, and for your information I have been using GD for the last 4 years! I am currently ' using' GD in every fricking aspect of our lives! She was popped ONCE! Typical response of you holier than thou people. The truth is YOU have no answers because it doesn't work for you either, does it? Or your child is soft and sweet and wonderful all the time.

We have worked with her for two years with the hitting, and kicking, and screaming. She has NOT been spanked through any of this. If you would have read my post you would have seen what we do. It's all about options, choosing our battles, and giving her space. Assessing the situation (hungry, tired, frustrated) and it is tiresome.

But, I degress, it's all a bunch of talk...
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#85 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 11:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva
So, no one has any actual ideas for me? It's all about reading books and no practical experience? I'm beginning to believe GD is wonderul in theory, but no one i know has any REAL experience(on MDC anyway). Why is that?
It's kind of hard to respond to your post, PD, because there aren't any details about what the situation in the school is like apart from your daughter's problematic behavior or what life with your daughter is like outside of the school. Is this behavior a situational thing? If so, what is it about the situation that's causing it and what can be done - apart from just reacting to her behavior - to remedy the need for her to act out. Maybe she needs to be in a different class, away from you, if possible. I know when I was nannying, my son really acted out. Fortunately, he got over it, but I was just caring for 2 kids, not a roomful. It took a good bit of time and it also took looking at the details of the environment and his trigger points.
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#86 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 11:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Potty Diva
So, no one has any actual ideas for me? It's all about reading books and no practical experience? I'm beginning to believe GD is wonderul in theory, but no one i know has any REAL experience(on MDC anyway). Why is that?
I think there's a difference between no one having any real experience with GD (which certainly isn't true -- there are plenty of posts of people's success using it) and no one having a solution for your situation based on our limited knowledge of your dd and what's going on in your lives. Despite the viewpoint of Supernanny, there's no one-size-fits-all set of rules to get the best results when parenting kids. I do think, however, that GD provides the framework and philosophy that will work best for all children. Have you posted your problem as a separate thread in this forum? You might get more views and more responses that way.

Lisa , mom to Isaac (9/1/03), Violet (6/19/06), Simon (10/9/09); wife to Eric ; handservant to Grace :
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#87 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 11:25 PM
 
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The truth is YOU have no answers because it doesn't work for you either, does it? Or your child is soft and sweet and wonderful all the time.
Obviously you're frustrated and nervous about what you're going to do, but there's no need to go jumping on people.

GD works for me and it has through some very tough situations - the aforementioned nannying and divorce, for two. And my child, while sweet, is by no means soft. He's quite a challenge.

Tortellinimama's suggestion is a good one. Why don't you start another thread and see if people can help you brainstorm some more?
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#88 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 11:30 PM
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Yeah. Spanking sort of skews your whole result.

I've spent a lot of my adult live working with kids who have emotional and behavioral disabilities - I was just punched today, actually. I am trained in 4 or 5 different restraint techniques and I have no qualms about using them when safety is an issue. Spanking, otoh, is a whole different issue.

Perhaps the atmophere of the child care center is just not something she's capable of dealing with right now. I know that's probably not what you want to hear, but 2 years is a long time for this kind of behavior to continue. She's telling you very clearly that she can't handle it. Yes, it will cause hardship for you to have to change your arrangements, but sometimes meeting your child's needs isn't easy.

When Rain was 5, it became clear to me that school was not something she could cope with effectively. For her well-being and mine, I quit my well-paying job a the end of her kindergarten year and decided to homeschool. I had no income, no plan...but clearly things weren't working, and I needed to change.

I think parenting without punishment is a whole different ballgame than parenting with punishment as a "last resort". With the latter, you and your child are still aware that punishment is an option, and you're still in the position of the enforcer. The relationship is still built on obey vs. disobey, on "you do this for me and I'll do that for you", rather than on mutual problem solving.

I don't consider myself to be a permissive parent. I once read about a parenting type called "harmonious parenting", and that really resonated with me. I have pretty firm boundaries for what I'm willing to do, and I'm pretty clear on what I don't want in my environment. The thing is, my daughter has the same rights to her boundaries, and then we work things out. There is no "Well, if we can't resolve this, I'll punish you" escape clause, so we do work it out. Sometimes we're both too angry at the moment and we spend a day just at a standstill, but eventually we make it work. If I could just say, "Fine, you're grounded!" then there would be no reason to keep problem-solving...

Sometimes my kid does stupid things. She really doesn't seem to do the "limit-testing" other kids her age do, because generally the limits are negotiable, by me anyway. After we've talked things through, we've always found a solution we both could live with.

Dar

 
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#89 of 154 Old 08-08-2005, 11:47 PM
 
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Potty Diva,

I have some practical experience with this ! My son (now almost 2.5) was wildly out of control and no kind of discipline had any effect on him at all, until a miracle happened at our house when he was about 20 months old.....we totally eliminated all casein (dairy protein) from his and my diet for eight weeks. On dairy he was hyperactive, sleepless, aggressive, violent, in constant motion, sensory seeking, combative, and basically rolled from one major tantrum to the next all day long. Eight weeks later - he slept more than 40 mins at a time for the first time in his life, started listening, started conversing, played nicely, was no longer violent, just a totally different kid. Getting rid of it also cleared up his reflux, reactive airway, chronic diarrhea, and constant infections.

We didn't have a discipline problem. We had a dietary problem. I think it was a miracle I found out about it and tried the 8 wk elimination. At around 18 months, after he finally started walking, I had had moms I didn't know approach me at groups I attempted to visit, and tell me he wasn't normal, that he had sensory integration problems, and that it wasn't my fault, and that no response to his behavior was going to help. I had him evaluated by EI, and we were going to start OT. I joined an online group for SI, and a lady there kept telling me to try eliminating dairy or gluten or both for 8 weeks, total elimination, 100% compliance. We decided to try dairy first. The rest is history. I finally know my son.

None of the discipline I use now could ever have made a dent in his behavior on dairy, because he was out of his mind. Twice he has gotten dairy accidentally, and for four days, he is sleepless, out of control and violent. Last time, he tried to stab me in the face with a fork, tried to claw my eyes, gave me a bloody lip, and hit DH in the face so hard he had a bruise. He hits, kicks, bites, headbutts, etc. It takes four days for him to come back to his right mind after a dairy exposure. For him, dairy is metabolized into casomorphins, which act like hallucinogenic drugs in his brain. Dairy truly makes him trip.

If you have been dealing with out of control behavior for this long, I highly recommend reading the book "Is This Your Child" by Doris Rapp, MD, and also doing some looking into a casein-free, or gluten-free, or both (GFCF) diet.

I hope this helps. It won't fix your situation in a week. We didn't see any change for six weeks, and it really took eight to see the complete transition. But if your DD has a problem with casomorphins or gluteomorphins, experimenting with total elimination of dairy or gluten could literally change your life.

Linda


Quote:
Originally Posted by Potty Diva

So, what now? For TWO years she has done this crap and I am so F***ING tired of it!

Any ideas?

DS1 March 2003DS2 Sept 2005,
and 3 , in our happy secular
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#90 of 154 Old 08-09-2005, 12:52 AM
 
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I really just wanted to ask johub if she had any recommended reading for someone like me who wants to parent gently but still create boundaries.

Amber, Dr William Sears has a beautiful book Called The Gentle Discipline book. You can also check out www.askdrsears.com .
He has wonderful gentle parenting advice, much like the mommies here use. He doesn't stop at that however because he also believes that we as parents should expect a reasonable amount of obedience etc. . .
I think I also have a book called "The Everything Guide to Gentle Discipline." (or maybe it was positive discipline)
Both books have how to suggestions about logical consequences and other
"punishments" such as time-out, in addition to advice on how to prevent issues, how to figure out why your child is behaving in these ways, creative ideas etc. . .
Joline
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