What's TCS? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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Old 10-05-2005, 06:51 PM
 
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dharmamama- while I too would have left the toilet to figure out something of the outside issue, I thought your incident of "sick sister on the couch he wants to jump on", was a really interesting one. I am thinking, I would try to help him find a different activity to do that was equally as enjoyable (but then again, I have easy kids who always prefer one of these options -playdough, cookie making, outside play--over everything else-lol), but what if he put up a real stink about it, what if he really wanted to do that so badly? I keep thinking of *my way* as more of "how I treat my dh"(since we have a great marriage) than TCS, if my dh insisted on doing something completely inconsiderate of my sick daughter I'd likely have quite a lot of words with him, yk?

I can see a number of complicating factors to TCS, one- both parents need to be into it, another- I can see it being harder with more than one child, esp. close in age children---finding common preferences is easy between one adult and one child, but try a 5 yo, a 4 yo and an almost 2 yo- :LOL. As I say, I am lucky to have "easy" kids in that regard who always prefer certain things. Another thing that seems like it would complicate things would be strong religious ties, in a more "restrictive" religion (like mine ).

Then, there is us--the mamas, we want so badly to do well for our kids, often we have come to where we are personally through lots of trial and tribulations, and it is HARD to give up what we have found works for us (like your cleaning, and "finishing what you've started" ways).

I said before, I think TCS is an ideal, an ideal I don't see myself reaching (partly as I didn't start out that way, partly due to my own "issues" and partly due to dh's lack of wanting to do it), but I think the idea of finding common preferences as often as possible, questioning long-held beliefs, and trying to treat our children with the respect we would want from a partner, are great things to work on. I am pretty sure TCS is an "all encompassing" thing, like you can't be "partly TCS" :LOL, but that is how I think of myself, and I think my kids are better off for it.

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Old 10-05-2005, 07:41 PM
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I am pretty sure TCS is an "all encompassing" thing, like you can't be "partly TCS"
I disagree... I don't think you can be partly TCS per se, but like anything, I think that the degree in which you impliment it can vary. For instance, you can be "AP" and not breastfeed (I am all for breastfeeding, just using an example)... and I also believe you can practice GD and still use time outs (although I don't plan to). I think you can still be a Christian and have a few glasses of wine, a Buddhist who still celebrates the decorating/santa/presents aspect of Christmas, a Muslim woman who doesn't cover her head, a republican who thinks Bush sucks (I am not a republican btw), a pro-choicer who is staunchly against the death penalty, and a feminist who believes prostitution should be legalized (like me).

I think the problem with many theories and philosophies is that people do make them all encompassing to the point that they isolate themselves and others, and create a sort of chaos where they are trying to create some peace...and that they are too worried about what the other tcs'ers or ap'ers or gd'ers might think if they dare go against anything the masses believe in those areas.

I love the philosophy of TCS. I plan to impliment it in almost all situations in raising my daughter -- but am I going to be a TCS'er who lets her watch 18 hours of TV a day if she wants to? Probably not... but it doesn't mean that most of my parenting and philosophies don't align closely with TCS. The same way I would definately consider myself AP to anyone who asked, and yet, my daughter is on formula (long painful story, but formula all the same).

The point is, I take my parenting philosophies from many different sources, people, ideas, my husband, my instincts, my daughter's personality etc... and I think everyone should really do the same. Any time you take one single doctrine or belief and make it the absolute only thing you believe or do, you kind of run into trouble (imo) ...

Of all the philosophies though, TCS is the one that makes the most sense to me, so that is why I "call" myself that... but it doesn't mean I will do 100% of it 100% of the time...

ETA: I would have left the toilet too... life is too short.. I realize that you want some sort of order in your life, we all do, and no one says you should live in filth so you can do what your kids want all the time and stuff --- but when I die, the last thing I want someone to say is, boy she had a real clean toilet! ya know?
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Old 10-05-2005, 08:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dar
and maybe see if you can find a mutually agreeable solution for a short time period, like 2 minutes, and then you'll check on him, and then maybe another two minutes... or one minute, or 30 seconds. Maybe he'd be okay with being outside with his older sibling. Maybe he could be on the cell phone with you on the other end. Whatever.
We did this with a set of walkie talkies, and we worked out the boundaries we all thought were safe. I checked on them often etc.

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In the grand scheme of things, leaing the toilet half-scrubbed is just not a big deal. If you truly believe that coersion is harmful to your child, it becomes even less of a big deal, and because you don't want to harm your child, you leave the toilet.
Right, in my world if it's toilet vs. kid the kid wins.
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This has been making me hungry every time I read it... I want to go to your house for dinner! Those are all my favorites
Happy to help with the snack attack! :LOL They are soo good. Sometimes I think I could almost live on black bean veggie burritos with lots of salsa and avacado.

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Old 10-05-2005, 08:20 PM
 
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Right, in my world if it's toilet vs. kid the kid wins.
Yes, because it really is a contest between the toilet and my kid and my kid lost, obviously.
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Old 10-05-2005, 09:12 PM
 
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Sorry if I offended you. Not my goal at all.

Maybe I should have said in a situation that causes me to consider my need to clean the toilet and my child's desire to go outside I would come to the conclusion that my child's desire outweighs the importance of a clean toilet. I am seriously struggling for a way to say what I mean without sound snarky.

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Old 10-05-2005, 09:15 PM
 
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wow. i actually spend the last hour reading through this thread and wow, this is a great discussion. i am new to this board, i have an almost 17 month old who is very much sprited and stubborn. the little positive discipline i have done revolves around telling dd what to do, instead of what not to do, distracting if the previous doesn't work, and if all else fails physically removing her from the undesirable or dangerous situation. no spaking, no yelling, shaming etc.
the TCS sounds interesting but how could you use it on a 17 month old who has no ability to reason or understand what's wrong, right, dangerous, hot, etc?
also, i work part time out of necessity and she's in homecare 3 full days a week. the caregiver is empathetic to my ways but she has 3 other ones to attend to. we have not had a situation when dd has to be disciplined yet but the lady uses distraction first and time out as last resort. i'm sure the different approaches confuse her. same thing with ec, we do it at home but not at homecare. this has caused a lot of confusion and miscommunication from dd. i don't want to run into the same thing with discipline.
any advice?

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Old 10-05-2005, 09:30 PM
 
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From the get-go, i was thinking: Dang. Dharma hould have used a different example: nobody is gonna go for, or be sympathetic over this example.

We have a friend whose baby was born with a life-threatening, yet not-a-death-sentence massive birth defect, and she has to tube feed him breastmilk every hour, plus she breasteeds him every two hours, which takes a long time. She always says, 'I have no idea what i would do if he were not my first".

I have to admit---there have been times I wasn't doing the most important thing in my life, but i still wanted to do it when my toddler wanted to do something else.

Finishing pooping is something that comes immediately to mind.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:03 PM
 
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From the get-go, i was thinking: Dang. Dharma hould have used a different example: nobody is gonna go for, or be sympathetic over this example.
But I wasn't asking people to be sympathic or tell me how I should have handled the situation differently. I am satisfied with how I handled the situation. I merely wanted to know how a TCSer would have handled it.

Namaste!
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UUMom
Finishing pooping is something that comes immediately to mind.
:LOL, I bet even the most hard-core TCSer would finish the pooping too.

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Old 10-05-2005, 10:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
But I wasn't asking people to be sympathic or tell me how I should have handled the situation differently. I am satisfied with how I handled the situation. I merely wanted to know how a TCSer would have handled it.

Namaste!

OK. Well. I am not an absolute TCSer, although i do take my kids' needs totally seriously.

But even middle- of- the- road me, wouldn't have worried about the toilet. Some things are simply not important. I tend to tidy the bathroom when the kids are actually in the bathroom, in the tub. Swipe, swipe, done.

OTOH-- I have not scrubbed a toilet since my dh took over that job about 18 yrs ago. I love that guy.
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Old 10-05-2005, 10:20 PM
 
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:LOL, I bet even the most hard-core TCSer would finish the pooping too.

No kidding.
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:13 AM
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I guess there are just two different thought processes. People who don't think their world should revolve around their children )and that is okay) and people who do. It is much easier to practice TCS (imo) when your world happily revolves around your child, as mine does. Don't get me wrong, I still have my hobbies and interests, and I don't plan on being one of those people who makes their child think they will die if they leave their side -- but my child absolutely comes first to me, or at the very least, equal.

I grew up in a home where we were not equal and we knew it. We were loved, sure, but we all knew who was "boss". We were talked to, listened to, sure, but we still knew at the end of the day who was in "control" and it wasn't us. My parents, and many others are from the school of "kids join OUR lives, we aren't changing for THEM" (I think Dr. Phil says this too *blech*) -- but my mindset is one of, this little girl didn't ask to be born, she didn't choose this, she doesn't get to choose where she lives, who her parents are, the fact that she legally has to live with us for the next 18 years -- it is my job to make her happy we made that choice (imo).

It is very easy to me to practice TCS having this mindset, that WE are honored to have her in our life and not the other way around. I am not saying that people who don't practice TCS don't feel this way, but we feel that her needs come equal or more important to ours and we are completely prepared to drop anything -- from cleaning the toilet to rescheduling a dinner with friends if she is upset/fussy/needy ... that to us, is just what we signed up for.

Now some people would say "your child is running your life" ... and to me, that is the sign of someone who has some control issues. Our child doesn't run our life but she is a HUGE part of our life, and being the one who didn't have a choice in any of it, we feel that her wants and needs should be addressed. It would be completely different if she got to check us out, our life, the way we did things, how we lived, got to study us and live with us on a trial run then said "I am cool with this and how you live, I think I will come aboard!"

Coming from a very controlling, punitive upbringing, it has been very difficult to change my mindset of "children need to be put in their place" or "children are not equal to adults" type mentality, but thankfully I did years ago when studying Sociology and moreso when I became pregnant and found this site.

I guess part of it too, is that I have seen it done the other way. All my life, every single person I have ever known but for a couple of people with hippy parents, has been raised in a less than GD or TCS home and while they may become "normal, decent" people, they still to this day struggle with issues of control, guilt, resentment, and anger as a result of their childhood, myself included -- even though I love my parents and are very close to them now....

So I decided to try it a different way and see how that works out. A way where everyone is respected and valued as an equal member of the family. A way where my position of "authority figure" is not the trump card, but rather a tool only used as a last measure in issues of real safety etc...
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:25 AM
 
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I think it is interesting the way the word "control" is used with TCS. By making the decision to discuss and find a mutual agreement, is the parent not still controlling the environment? It is not within the child's realm of knowledge to do this.

An observation I have also made, is that for families who raise their children to honor the 10 Commandments and make Jesus a priority, TCS would not be an option, specifically by going to church regularly and dying to self daily. Ultimately, as an adult, my life and decisions will not be discussed and a mutual agreement made with my higher authority, and I would be hesitant to create a false sense of "this is how life is" in my children.

I would also like to add that being a non-TCS parent, my children are shown respect daily through our communication with each other (affection, speaking, listening) and my relationship with my husband, their daddy. If I had to say my world revolved around something on this earth, it would be my family as a whole.


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Old 10-06-2005, 11:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Dar


She has two daughters, I think they're probably in their late teens now? Or maybe the older one is in her early twenties? They were. I won't post their names in case she's decided not to put those out publicly, but they used to post on the TCS list occasionally. She may have had more kids since then, too, I don't know - this is as of about 1998.

Dar

Do either of them have a web-site?
Thanks,
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:27 PM
 
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OK, I admittedly have not had time to read all of this thread because my 2 children don't really like it when I sit at the computer for long periods of time, so I hope i'm not repeating anything. I'm just curious. how on earth would I handle the following situation with TCS? .....
DD is very aggressive with DS....has been since he was about 3 months old. She pushes him over, she hits him, kicks him, bites him. You name it, she does it. I know that its out of jealousy, I can tell it is. I've made a big effort to provide both of them with individualized attention, I've sat down and talked to her about the fact that I love her even though Ben is here, I still love her. I've talked to her about the hitting, biting, etc...but she still does it. I just can't really see a way to rectify this without coersion...meaning I have to coerse her to stop abusing him. I can't just let her do it...ya know? So how does someone who practices TCS deal with this? I've tried very hard and I just can't seem to make it work.
Amy

I'm quoting my own post to bump it because noone responded and I truly am interested in knowing how one would handle this situation as nothing I have done seems to work. Also, I have had a chance to read through some of these posts and it would seem to me that TCS is inherently impossible when you have 2 children who want 2 different things.......wouldn't it be forcing one to do something that the other didn't want to do? I don't know....with my 2...I'm reading these examples and it just doesn't seem plausible. DD is extremely high needs and yes my world does center around my children, but I also value brushing my teeth and going to the bathroom. If my children had it their way, I wouldn't do that. So that why I sort of like with some of this.....I just really don't get it. I'm trying to get it, but I don't. It seems with a high needs child (which I have) and/or more than one child (i have 2) some of these examples would just not work. Thoughts?
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Old 10-06-2005, 04:45 PM
 
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Amy, I think you have a very valid point. I was into TCS when I had only one dd, and, though I cringe now to admit it, I was very judgemental about it and thought I knew everything and that TCS was totally the best way for all families, etc. My older dd is "high needs" (I do not like that expression, but it helps to explain) so I thought that if people could not do it, they just were not putting enough time and energy into their kids.

I am not proud of the fact I felt that way, I'm just explaining to give background.

Then I had my second baby, who had a life threatening medical condition and had major surgery to correct a birth defect. My children are 22 months apart. My older dd wanted to hit, kick, and pummel my medically fragile newborn - basically, she really wanted to do it whenever I had contact with my newborn. My older dd also wanted to prevent me from nursing my newborn, and I had almost no help or support whatsoever, just what my dh could offer me after working his ten hour days. Suddenly, all of my ideals (I'm thinking about TV, too) were called into question in the face of real life practical considerations like having to feed and protect my newborn.

So ultimately, TCS did not work for our family. I think it may work again as the girls get older, when we can talk a bit more about common preferences, etc. A lot of the values are still very influential to me. For example, what is the point of forcing a kid to wear pajamas if they don't want to? Who cares? If a child doesn't want to go in a carseat, do we really have to go somewhere? A few times have been real emergencies, but 99.9 percent of the time there was no real reason to force a child to go somewhere. However, I am very comfortable about "coercing and manipulating" (to use some TCS lingo) my children to do things like brush their teeth and not hit each other.

I do know one TCS family in real life with two boys -- and TCS works really well for them. It is hard for me as an outsider to tell whether the boys are gentle and peaceful because of the TCS or whether TCS worked well because they had gentle and peaceful dispositions to begin with. All of the other TCS families I know in real life have only one child.
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Old 10-06-2005, 05:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy
I guess there are just two different thought processes. People who don't think their world should revolve around their children )and that is okay) and people who do. It is much easier to practice TCS (imo) when your world happily revolves around your child, as mine does. Don't get me wrong, I still have my hobbies and interests, and I don't plan on being one of those people who makes their child think they will die if they leave their side -- but my child absolutely comes first to me, or at the very least, equal.
Well, I have to agree with the pp that it's not as clear-cut as this. Our world revolves around our children, and we think it should, but that actually means that we are not always able to pay 100% attention to their wants and desires. Maybe this works better for people who are better off financially, but part of us wanting the best for our children is that we want to be able to afford to send them to college, and so we have to make sacrifices now. So that means that some things just aren't an option, some obligations must be met, and some desires must be delayed. At least with the preschooler, not so much with the baby, obviously.

And, I think that there's something to be said for doing the things that you have to to maintain your sanity, to an extent. If you need a two-hour massage and three martinis every afternoon while your dc watches violent cartoons, then your priorities might need reexamining. If, however, you're like Dharmamama and just need a clean toilet, I think you should do it. Especially if you felt like you would become resentful of your dc otherwise.

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Old 10-06-2005, 11:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by inezyv

Then I had my second baby, who had a life threatening medical condition and had major surgery to correct a birth defect. My children are 22 months apart. My older dd wanted to hit, kick, and pummel my medically fragile newborn - basically, she really wanted to do it whenever I had contact with my newborn. My older dd also wanted to prevent me from nursing my newborn, and I had almost no help or support whatsoever, just what my dh could offer me after working his ten hour days. Suddenly, all of my ideals (I'm thinking about TV, too) were called into question in the face of real life practical considerations like having to feed and protect my newborn.
Yes! That's exactly what I'm talking about. I didn't have a medically fragile newborn, but I did have a newborn. My kids are 20 months apart and my daughter was so very jealous .....she did crazy things (well still does) to my son. One time he was napping and all of a sudden I heard him crying and she came around the corner and announced "ben woke up" I went in and she had scratched the heck out of his face I don't have any idea how a person would implement TCS in situations like this.
Not to be snarky, but I've noticed noone has really chimed in with a TCS suggestion on how to do that....so I'm starting to think that there isn't one. There are just so many examples in my life on a day to day basis that this method just doesn't seem possible.
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Old 10-07-2005, 12:35 AM
 
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Amy, I did look into some TCS solutions for the problem, and they were beautiful, gentle solutions, but they just did not work for us. They might work for some families, but they did not work for us. Because I had very serious safety and feeding considerations, I had to have something that would work and work quickly. I could not experiment with lots of different ideas over a prolonged period of time.
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Old 10-07-2005, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
Yep, I'm sure they are entrenched theories, and I'm happy with them being that way.
And you're welcome to 'em, of course... but you asked how a TCS parent would approach the situation, and I answered in that vein.

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Sorry, I DON'T get what you're saying here. He wanted to go outside by himself because his sister was outside by herself and, as the little brother, he wants to do the same thing she does so he can be like her. I'm not sure where coercion comes into that, and I kinda resent the idea that somehow I have misparented my child just because he wanted to go outside alone.
I'm surprised that this bothers you, actually... you've said you make no attempt to be non-coercive, so clearly your child *has* been coerced, and TCS dogma is that his irrational behaviors are due to coercion. I didn't say misparented, just coerced. The whole idea that she was permitted to do something and he wasn't permitted to do it, and therefore he wanted to do it to be like her... that doesn't happen in TCS families, because no one is "permitted" to do things.


sassykat - I just looked, and yeah... www.lulie.org.

I try not to respond to sibling questions because I really can't speak from experience - our family is just the two of us. Of the three TCS families I used to hang with, one had two children (one of whom had Down Syndrome, and the mom was single), one had 4, and one had an only child. And Sarah Fitz-whatever she is now has two... apparently it's doable, even if I don't have first-hand examples.

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Old 10-07-2005, 04:16 PM
 
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I was not familiar with TCS until I read about it in this thread, and here's my thoughts as an ex-teacher and newbie parent:

I like Dr. Sears philosophy (he talks about it when discussing night parenting) that you need to do what's right for your child, for you, and for your family. So, if co-sleeping isn't working because your child flails around at night and punches you and you're not getting any sleep, then you think of alternatives. For some, it's a separate room, others a mattress on the floor, others it's adding a side car. But if the child is miserable in his or her own room and not ready to be on her own, that's not right for the child. So a toddler bed or a mattress in your room might work, but you might have to ease her into it.

The pendulum of parenting swung towards parents having absolute control for so long now, but I think the "danger" of permissive parenting is a true concern. I've known children whose parents allowed them to do whatever it is they want, with the consequences of a child who was unhappy and lonely (because other kids didn't want to be around them). It doesn't seem as if TCS is this kind of philosophy though. However, I think taking any philosophy lock, stock, and barrel is dangerous. (That's why I like Dr. Sears I mean, children, even older ones, are not always rational- esp. during hormone driven years of teenagerhood. There are times that neccessitate, IMO, action and not discussion. However, I have found as both a teacher and a parent, that I question the "why" of rules more often. As a teacher we had a rule that only two kids could be a on the teeter-tooter. "Why," I asked. "Because that's the way we do it." I thought about it, and realized that with certain conditions, I number of children could be on the teeter-tooter- which is what they wanted, because they're girls (mostly) and wanted to be social while the y swooshed up and down. The girls and I discussed it, and agreed to a compromise- they could sit up to four on each side but could not roughhouse, try to stand, etc.

I do think, even with young ones, it's a good idea to give rational explanations for rules, even if the kids don't quite understand it yet. My 13mos. hates to get his diaper changed, but I think it's non-negotiable when I need to change him. So I say explain to him in short phrases why he must get his diaper changed "time to get cleaned up" or "eww-stinky diaper" (which he thinks is funny) I let him choose the new diaper, and give him any power I can. But sometimes he cries and screams. That's the way it is.

Anyway, that was quite long. I guess the bottom line is common sense. I could have said that in a much shorter way!!
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Old 10-07-2005, 04:39 PM
 
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You can be left and TCS (I'm pretty dang left!). You can TCS a baby and a toddler. You can TCS with multiple children.

It is not about self sacrifising or a list of rules. It is a new paradigm where everyone gets their needs mets (including yours and your partner). It is living with your children cooperatively.

Children are rational and want to remain safe. IME they respond to emergency situations rationally. They respond to information about safety rationally.

It is a very good fit for me and my family.

I also dislike the jargon and tone of some TCS-lists and sites. I am a member owner of a natural parenting/AP discussion board that includes a TCS *support* forum. If you are interested in getting guidance and how to-s, or have questions you would be most welcome to post there. (Please no threads or questions with the sole intention to provoke debate). Lurking is welcome too! http://pub3.ezboard.com/bsageparenting
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dar
The whole idea that she was permitted to do something and he wasn't permitted to do it, and therefore he wanted to do it to be like her... that doesn't happen in TCS families, because no one is "permitted" to do things.
Sorry, I don't buy this. I think you have it backwards. My son didn't want to be like his sister just because I wouldn't let him go outside alone. He would have wanted to be like her even if I'd allowed him to go outside alone. Him wanting to be like his sister came before the "coercion." Indeed, it was the cause of his "coercion." My son wanting to be like his sister has nothing to do with coercion or being permitted to do something. I'm sure that his getting upset about it was due to me not letting him, but the desire to be like his sister has nothing to do with coercion. It's just how little kids are. They want to be like the people they love and admire. I don't believe that just because a family practices TCS, little siblings don't want to be like their big siblings, and I also think that, even in a TCS family, a little sib could become frustrated that he or she developmentally can't be like the big sib (for instance, riding a bicycle or climbing the stairs, things that have to do with skill level, not permission.

Namaste!
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:31 PM
 
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Ps. Just to make sure we're on the same page regarding terminology, it is my understanding (based on reading the TCS pages and having email conversations with David Deutsch and Sarah Fitz-Claridge) that a child is being "coerced" any time they are not completely happy with any outcome or solution. FTR, I don't believe that is coercion. To me, coercion is making a person act against their will. I believe that people can be not completely happy (or even unhappy) with a given situation but still not be acting against their will.

Also, I wanted to add that I had a very bizarre email exchange with David Deutsch in which he told me that, had my nephew been raised in a TCS family, he wouldn't have had Asperger's. I thought that recasting a neurobiological disorder as a parenting disorder was off the wall, to say the least.

Namaste!
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:32 PM
 
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Hmmm... Hawks... methinks I probably know you! (ok, I just figured out who you are -- and yup, I have seen your family in action and TCS works beautifully for y'all! -- a living testament to how TCS can work well in real life! )

My experience with emergency situations is that children don't always respond rationally any more than adults do. Sadly, I have been through some true life or death emergencies and I didn't notice rational behavior in my 23 month old dd at the time. I didn't notice it in myself, either!

TCS works great for some families, but it doesn't work great for others. I'm thrilled it works for so many, because it really is a cool concept.
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Old 10-07-2005, 05:40 PM
 
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Re: rationality in emergency sitautions:

I was once assaulted outside a crowded building, in an empty parking lot. My response was to run away from the building and toward my car, which was farther away from people who could help me. In my mind, at the time, I was thinking, "If I can run to my car I can drive away." I guess someone could take that to the basest level and say that I was acting rationally by trying to get away from my assailant, but on a more sophisticated level, the more rational thing to do would have been to go toward the building and get help from the people inside. "Fight or flight" responses are not rational or irrational. They're just instincts.

Namaste!
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Old 10-07-2005, 07:11 PM
 
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Hey inezyv nice to "see" ya! :

I know, I'm not rational in emergencies either. Like once some high winds kicked up suddenly. I had to rush outside to secure another building where I worked and saw the wind catch the upper branches and crack the top of tree and watched as it came toppling down. Did I run quickly away? No, I crouched down and covered my head. : Luckily it landed a few yards away.

I definately learned something in that experience (like I have crappy reflexes, lol). Seriously, I don't think we ever stop learning. We make mistakes and learn things and grow.

TCS is about sharing information with our childre--information that is timely and important. And it means striving to find creative solutions to problem that everyone is happy with.

I find alot of AP families implement these strategies without adhering a label to their parenting style actually.
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Old 10-07-2005, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
Ps. Just to make sure we're on the same page regarding terminology, it is my understanding (based on reading the TCS pages and having email conversations with David Deutsch and Sarah Fitz-Claridge) that a child is being "coerced" any time they are not completely happy with any outcome or solution. FTR, I don't believe that is coercion. To me, coercion is making a person act against their will. I believe that people can be not completely happy (or even unhappy) with a given situation but still not be acting against their will.
I agree with you. I found the definition of coercion to be bizarre as well. Sounds like circular logic to me.

From one of the first posts on this thread:

"It's irrational to want to be run over by a big truck, so the parent assumes that a child would not really want that, even if he's standing in the street screaming, "I want to stand here forever!" as a truck bears down upon him, and that the reason he's standing there is either that he's not aware of the danger or that he's been coerced previously and thus is acting irrationally as a result, but since he truly does not want to be hit by a truck, allowing this to happen would be allowing further coercion."

This is what I mean by circular logic. Child makes a poor choice and it's labeled "previous coercion", thus allowing it would be further coercion, even though it was the child's choice. I see no proof or evidence of this.
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Old 10-07-2005, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
Sorry, I don't buy this. I think you have it backwards. My son didn't want to be like his sister just because I wouldn't let him go outside alone.
I think you misunderstood... I didn't say that him wanting to be like his sister was a result of coercion. In the situation you gave, she was permitted to go outside. He wasn't. By giving permission for one child to do certain things and not giving permission for others, you coerce your child and force him to act irrationally when he (very naturally) wants to imitate his older sister. You've turned "being outside alone" into a s privilege that one child has and the other does not. That doesn't happen in TCS.

Quote:
I also think that, even in a TCS family, a little sib could become frustrated that he or she developmentally can't be like the big sib (for instance, riding a bicycle or climbing the stairs, things that have to do with skill level, not permission.
But in a TCS family, the parents are actively trying to help him do these things, not forbidding them. Because this is the dynamic, my experience has been that children respond very differently to not being able to do things . Often they work very hard at it - my daughter taught herself to swim one summer by literally going back and forth hundreds of times, and she was only 3 or 4. Other times, if it's truly a developmental task, they seem very happy to do it with parental assistance, and they believe the parental assurances that it will come. They don't tend to get very upset over it. It does happen occasionally - my daughter was a very late writer, and occasionally she would get frustrated over her inability to spell (although I tend to think it was due to outside coercion she had experienced) but it's not common.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momsgotmilk4two
This is what I mean by circular logic. Child makes a poor choice and it's labeled "previous coercion", thus allowing it would be further coercion, even though it was the child's choice. I see no proof or evidence of this.
Again, the basic of TCS theory is that children are innately rational and become irrational through coercion. If you believe this, then the fact that the child is acting irrationally *is* proof. As TCS is a philosophy, it's subject to the rigors of the scientific method, and therefore would tumble like a house of cards if anyone could logically disproove this initial postulate. So far no one has... it's like "Two points determine a line" in Euclidean geometry. If you start there, an entire enormous field follows. If you don't start with that same initial postulate, though, you'll never get to any of it. In sphere geometry, for example, two points don't determine a line... and everything that follows is therefore different.

And that was a pretty serious situation... if child has been coerced around eating sweets and makes the irrational decision to eat two fudge cakes, even after you've shared your best theories, then you don't interfere, because your coercion in this case will be more damaging than his eating the cakes. getting run over by a truck is a lot more extreme, and it's also not something that's ever happened to me or anyone I know...

And yes, the TCS definition of coercion is specific, and not the standard one... but on the other hand, perhaps doing things that make you unhappy is irrational in and of itself.

Dar

 
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Old 10-08-2005, 12:58 AM
 
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Thanks, Dar, for the link. I looked over her site.


Quote:
Originally Posted by where the hawks go

I find alot of AP families implement these strategies without adhering a label to their parenting style actually.
: I was thinking about that, too. I use various parenting techniques with my children, depending on the situation.

Dar wrote: "You've turned "being outside alone" into a s privilege that one child has and the other does not. That doesn't happen in TCS."

I do question the logic of allowing a two-year old outside alone, just because his older sister is outside alone. The potential for danger or an accident is huge.

"As TCS is a philosophy, it's subject to the rigors of the scientific method, and therefore would tumble like a house of cards if anyone could logically disproove this initial postulate. So far no one has..."

I have done no research on children being born with innate rationale--does this mean that there is existing research that children are rational from birth, or that no one can prove that children aren't rational at birth?

Thanks!
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