Parenting With Love and Logic? - Page 7 - Mothering Forums
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#181 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 05:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by YiddisheMama
it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...
But aren't most tantrums a symptom of hurting? Just because it isn't physical, doesn't it still hurt?

Sometimes I think adults underestimate the difficulty children have dealing with what seem like minor disappointments to us. It takes a lot of practice and experience, and I believe children still need support when they're feeling something emotionally painful.

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#182 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by natensarah
But aren't most tantrums a symptom of hurting? Just because it isn't physical, doesn't it still hurt?

Sometimes I think adults underestimate the difficulty children have dealing with what seem like minor disappointments to us. It takes a lot of practice and experience, and I believe children still need support when they're feeling something emotionally painful.
ITA. My parents were big believers in "I don't want to have to hear it," and I strongly got the message that they didn't want me to show any non-happy emotions. I ended up feeling that I was less worthy as a person unless I was happy and fun to be around at all times.

Even when ds is upset and crying/screaming/tantrumming because of something I did/didn't do/told him he had to do/told him he couldn't do, I still don't have a problem offering sympathy and support. It's hard to be little. It's not easy to be big either, but, let's face it, we have the greater power, the greater perspective, and the greater reserves to face life. I can afford to be magnanimous and cope with the unpleasantness of his tantrums in order to be there for him.

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#183 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 05:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by YiddisheMama
b'h

i think there is nothing wrong with tantrums, and my kids are welcome to throw tantrums whenever they want...but i don't have to hear it. my kids know that they can throw tantrums, scream, yell etc anytime they want, as long as it's in their bedroom or in the patio with the door closed.

whenever they're done with their screaming, i'm all ready to see them/hear them/hold them/hug them etc...

it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...
I totally agree. I see it as a part of growing and learning. At some point we learn that throwing a tantrum just isn't OK in this big old world (although as an HR Director I know some folks never learn this ). It's that whole L & L raising children to be responsible adults thing.

What age is appropriate for this learning varies from kid to kid. I believe that my 4 1/2 yo is ready for this and as such if he's throwing a tantrum, he will go to his room, or ours, to do so. He has demonstrated over and over that he's fully capable of dealing with things in more constructive and appropriate ways but if he makes the choice to yell and scream, he is also making the choice to go to his room.
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#184 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 06:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by YiddisheMama
b'h

i think there is nothing wrong with tantrums, and my kids are welcome to throw tantrums whenever they want...but i don't have to hear it. my kids know that they can throw tantrums, scream, yell etc anytime they want, as long as it's in their bedroom or in the patio with the door closed.

whenever they're done with their screaming, i'm all ready to see them/hear them/hold them/hug them etc...

it's different of course if they hurt themselves and are crying. then i hold them and they cry on my shoulder etc...
I disagree.

I am 35 year old and now and then I fail to control myself. I cry. I have been known to have a fit (at least 4-5 times during my adult married life). I threw a full-flegged tantrum when I just became pregnant and did not know it (broken dishes, screaming at DH, very pittiful)

I am very glad my DH does not assume the attitude of "I don't want to hear it" and "I'll hug you when you are done"

And I agree, during those times the "hurt" is way higher then when I hit myself with a hammer (or may be it's just me)
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#185 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 06:02 PM
 
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I think it is a very slippery slope to tell our kids they can't be upset or out of control around us.

This is a common theme among recovering alcoholics and addicts--growing up in families where negative emotions were threatening/not allowed/punished over/etc. How quickly they learned that alcohol and drugs could squelch those emotions. And are now spending lots of time and energy undoing those negative messages and learning how to deal with emotions as adults.

I would never tell my child they couldn't laugh around me, why would I tell them that they couldn't cry around me?
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#186 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 06:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TortelliniMama
Even when ds is upset and crying/screaming/tantrumming because of something I did/didn't do/told him he had to do/told him he couldn't do, I still don't have a problem offering sympathy and support. It's hard to be little. It's not easy to be big either, but, let's face it, we have the greater power, the greater perspective, and the greater reserves to face life. I can afford to be magnanimous and cope with the unpleasantness of his tantrums in order to be there for him.
Ditto that. Really I think in many ways it is that much MORE important to be there for them when they are upset because that's when they really need understanding and compassion. Tantrums are a way for them to show how upset they are, I want to be sure my boys know I'm there for them - and not to believe that I just don't want to hear it.

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#187 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 06:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TortelliniMama
ITA. My parents were big believers in "I don't want to have to hear it," and I strongly got the message that they didn't want me to show any non-happy emotions. I ended up feeling that I was less worthy as a person unless I was happy and fun to be around at all times.
Me too.
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#188 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 07:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
I don't have a lot of time to read, so I want a lot of action for my money :LOL
Here, here. Though it's not specifically a parenting style book, I have been reading "Mindful Parenting" (upon my sister's rec. -- it's by the Myla and Jon Kabat-Zinn) and it is good reading time spent for those of us with little reading time to spare!

This is all good stuff to think about (we have a 3 yr old boy) and I've appreciated many of the posts so far!
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#189 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 08:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Minky
What is wrong with giving a time out or naughty step session for a tantrum? And please don't think I'm trying to be rude, this is a genuine question.
I think it is important to understand that children do not choose to throw a tantrum, they fall into them. Tantrums are not an acceptable or unacceptable behaviour. They are behaviour that a child cannot control and this is scary for them. I found (on this forum) two very good links about tantrums.

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

"We strongly recommend against parents placing children younger than age 6 in their rooms during a tantrum (..) Isolating a child who is regressed and feeling intolerably alone simply takes advantage of the child's fear. Although it is true that many children will settle down more quickly if they are isolated in their room, their behavioral improvement is in response to the increased panic that has been produced by the isolation"

P.S. If the links do not work then simply go to www.carolinaparent.com and search for tantrum
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#190 of 252 Old 10-21-2005, 11:44 PM
 
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At 1-3, kids tantrum because they have a whole new slew of emotions that overwhelm them. Not "giving in" and not being present for your child's feelings are not the same thing at all. Put another way, being present for your child's feelings is not the same thing as giving in to what they're wanting. I love that when my son tantrums - which is not often - he comes to me again and again for hugs, and I love that I am there for him when he needs that comfort for his feelings. I hope he will always seek comfort and not isolation when he has strong feelings in his life. Kids who continue to tantrum often into the 4's and 5's and beyond do so because they learned tantruming got them what they wanted, not because their caretakers allowed them to have their feelings in front of them.
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#191 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 06:49 AM
 
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Originally Posted by gaialice
I think it is important to understand that children do not choose to throw a tantrum, they fall into them. Tantrums are not an acceptable or unacceptable behaviour. They are behaviour that a child cannot control and this is scary for them. I found (on this forum) two very good links about tantrums.

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

http://www.carolinaparent.com/1edito...-token.subpub=

"We strongly recommend against parents placing children younger than age 6 in their rooms during a tantrum (..) Isolating a child who is regressed and feeling intolerably alone simply takes advantage of the child's fear. Although it is true that many children will settle down more quickly if they are isolated in their room, their behavioral improvement is in response to the increased panic that has been produced by the isolation"

P.S. If the links do not work then simply go to www.carolinaparent.com and search for tantrum
I stay with her during her time outs. We use the bottom step, not the room.
She is allowed to express herself and I listen but not in public, not in our kitchen, living room, and not while in a social situation with friends.

She usually does not get to tantrum stage because I remind her she's going on the step if she continues what she's doing when she's beginning to "fall"

So, have I instilled fear in her? That really isn't what I intended with the step.
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#192 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 10:15 AM
 
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for me it comes down to: why punish a child at all for behavior, like a tantrum, that they can't control, and is totally age appropriate?
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#193 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 10:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Minky
She is allowed to express herself and I listen but not in public, not in our kitchen, living room, and not while in a social situation with friends.
Why are there only certain places she can express her emotions? If she was physically hurt and crying would she need to go on the step too? I would be concerned about encouraging her to bottle up her emotions for fear she will get in trouble. It seems anti-attachment to me.

Not trying to be snarky to you - just trying to get you to consider a different viewpoint.

Now if you are in the middle of the supermarket and she has a tantrum I think it's totally fine to leave the store and discuss outside (so as not to disturb everyone else), but not as a punishment. I'm not getting why she can't have a tantrum in the kitchen or living room.

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#194 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I just don't understand why anyone would punish their child for having a tantrum.

I guess my DS isn't that old yet, so maybe there's a component of this I just don't get yet...

but, when he has a tantrum, I don't see it as him acting defiant, or being "bad". He's just unable to control his emotions at this early age.

It will be a lonnnnng time before he has all of the coping mechanisms in place to MOSTLY be able to handle disappointment, change and tiredness in healthy ways. It's my job to help guide him in learning ways to express his feelings in a more adult way as time goes on.
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#195 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 11:47 AM
 
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Well said KM.

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#196 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 11:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
I just don't understand why anyone would punish their child for having a tantrum.

I guess my DS isn't that old yet, so maybe there's a component of this I just don't get yet...
To me, it very much IS about age and even moreso an individual child's demonstrated ability to effectively deal with strong emotions like anger and frustration without having a tantrum. My 4yo has demonstrated that he knows very well how to deal with his anger and frustration in contructive, effective, appropriate ways.

The day that I decided he was well equiped enough to know that tantrums are not appropriate was the day that he started turning them on and off like a light switch. He was about 2m away from his 4th birthday. If he's able to just stop in a snap and move to something else then its obvious to me that holding him and comforting him while he's having one is doing no more than encouraging the behavior.
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#197 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 12:04 PM
 
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If he's able to just stop in a snap and move to something else then its obvious to me that holding him and comforting him while he's having one is doing no more than encouraging the behavior.
I disagree wholeheartedly with this. Comforting him lets him know that you understand he is upset and want to help him feel better, it is not encouraging the behavior. Encouraging would be giving him what he wants because of a temper tantrum and no one has suggested doing that.

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#198 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 01:42 PM
 
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just my 2 cents worth...

I've read parts of the book, but I only know one family IRL who is really into Love and Logic (the mom has held parenting groups about L&L and is always trying to introduce friends and acquaintances to it). This family has 3 pretty terrible kids, most of the time.

The kids' behavior is, in a nutshell, awful. At ages 7, 5 and 3, even the older two:

1) Constantly messing up other people's work, deliberately pouring sugar bowls out, sticking their hands in food to be served to the crowd, and demolishing place settings and such before dinnertime.
2) Making huge messes like carelessly spilling their drink all over someone/something and just waltzing away and not even appearing to realize that they've done anything wrong, not even a "sorry".
3) Walk up and nonchalantly just take food right off of strangers' plates, and keep on walking. Like they own the place.
4) Grab toys from other kids, throw toys at kids, push and bully smaller kids, etc.

They seem to have no conscience, and a complete disregard of other people's property, and no knowledge of basic human conduct. They are utterly irresponsible and selfish, way beyond the normal childish self-centeredness.

And if the mom's around, which is rarely, granted, the mom just stands there and watches all this go on. "Not intervening" seems to have given these kids license to do all sorts of awful things. And sometimes the kids get chewed out or reprimanded by adults and then the mom gets all weird at the adults like kids will be kids.

I'm not at all impressed by what I've seen of L&L IRL. The book is much better, and some of the emotionally distancing techniques can help a yeller like me to cool off and not get so emotional...but overall I'm no fan, simply based on this family I know.

THESE kids don't even seem to know right from wrong!

Liora, Frum Jew In Beijing, Mom of Three (one "Almost Autistic" healed in 3 years with biomed and one amazing girl with Down syndrome using Targeted Nutritional Intervention (TNI)
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#199 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 01:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lioralourie

THESE kids don't even seem to know right from wrong!

Your description of them sounds miles away from L&L. Makes me wonder how this family really puts the principles into practice. Ignoring behaviors like you mention certainly is no part of L&L. Sounds like she doesn't practice what she preaches.
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#200 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 01:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HelloKitty
I disagree wholeheartedly with this. Comforting him lets him know that you understand he is upset and want to help him feel better, it is not encouraging the behavior. Encouraging would be giving him what he wants because of a temper tantrum and no one has suggested doing that.
Let me give you an example, which started right after I posted the previous entry. Ds wanted biscuts for breakfast....dh was making egg and potato burritos. We told him that the biscuts were for biscuts and gravy tomorrow but he could have a tortilla, toast, waffle, with his eggs and on down the line. He grabbed the can of biscuts, hugged it, threw himself on the floor and started screaming. I told him that we are having a quiet morning and if he wants to yell and scream he can do it in his bedroom.

With that, he stopped screaming, looked up and smiled and said, "its not going to work is it?" I said, "Nope. The biscuts are for tomorrow." He put them back in the fridge and went to play with his sister.

I do not believe he needed to be hugged and comforted. He needed to be reminded that this behavior is not appropriate.
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#201 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 02:15 PM
 
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But couldn't the same thing have been accomplished by saying "I know you are upset that you can't have biscuits today, but I know you will enjoy them tommorrow." Or something similar. Rather than "Go to your room to be upet because we don't want to see it." See what I'm saying?

He was upset about not having the biscuits, just because he got over it quickly when faced with having to go to his room doesn't really change the fact. Both ways he's learned that having a tantrum didn't work but one way he's also gotten his feelings validated.

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#202 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 02:40 PM
 
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But couldn't the same thing have been accomplished by saying "I know you are upset that you can't have biscuits today, but I know you will enjoy them tommorrow." Or something similar.
A year ago your suggestion would have been my approach and was. When that quit working, we went looking for new techniques to add to our box of parenting tools.

I know he wasn't really all that broken up about this because when he is truly feeling angry/sad/frustrated, he deals much differently. He tells us how he's feeling (angry, sad, etc) and then we start a dialog about how he can feel better with or sometimes without our help. When he's putting on a show, we know it.

I guess its hard for anyone to explain their sitation to those who aren't a part of it irl.
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#203 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 02:47 PM
 
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To answer the op (even though she seems to already know what to do- lol)
I hated love and logic. Here's a thread with examples from the book http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=311148
Other gd'ers have different opinions, but there's mine. And the examples are straight from the book. ewww.

As far as tantrums go, Ita with everyone who's saying that tantrums are normal emotions for a child, and that the best way to deal with them is to be there for the child. Hold them, talk to them, be as understanding as you can be.

nak...

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#204 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 02:51 PM
 
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Let me give you an example, which started right after I posted the previous entry. Ds wanted biscuts for breakfast....dh was making egg and potato burritos. We told him that the biscuts were for biscuts and gravy tomorrow but he could have a tortilla, toast, waffle, with his eggs and on down the line. He grabbed the can of biscuts, hugged it, threw himself on the floor and started screaming. I told him that we are having a quiet morning and if he wants to yell and scream he can do it in his bedroom.

With that, he stopped screaming, looked up and smiled and said, "its not going to work is it?" I said, "Nope. The biscuts are for tomorrow." He put them back in the fridge and went to play with his sister.

I do not believe he needed to be hugged and comforted. He needed to be reminded that this behavior is not appropriate.
To me that makes perfect sense.
If you comforted him you would reinforce the behavior. I use the step and stay with my child but I just can't see hugging them at that point.

And for everone who is saying tantrum's are age appropriate, a lot of things are age appropriate and we have to teach our kids that they aren't acceptable. If u reinforce your child's tantrums how are they going to learn you don't want them screaming like that?
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#205 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 02:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by UmmBnB
When that quit working, we went looking for new techniques to add to our box of parenting tools.
When you say it "quit working" I'm curious about what you mean. What has this new approach provided that the old one didn't? (Not being snarky, generally curious!)

I use this approach with all my boys even with my 15 year old (yes they have what could be the equivalent of a tantrum sometimes!) and it still "works" in that they know that I'm listening and I know what they are feeling.

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#206 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 02:59 PM
 
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A year ago your suggestion would have been my approach and was. When that quit working, we went looking for new techniques to add to our box of parenting tools.

I know he wasn't really all that broken up about this because when he is truly feeling angry/sad/frustrated, he deals much differently. He tells us how he's feeling (angry, sad, etc) and then we start a dialog about how he can feel better with or sometimes without our help. When he's putting on a show, we know it.

I guess its hard for anyone to explain their sitation to those who aren't a part of it irl.
This makes sense to me to.
I know when DD is playing up and when she has a valid concern. For instance she does not get to pick our meals. She knows she does not get to pick our meals. She would pick chocolate or cereal for every meal.

Ok now an example of the opposite. I think a tantrum related to the room being too dark would be something I would cuddle her through and see what I cuold do about her fears. But not something she knows full well she isn't supposed to be doing like what you described or this one that happened recently with us.

DD wanted a toy out of those machines at the front of the grocery store. She didn't even know what it was, she just saw an older kid getting one and suddenly wanted it. Huge tantrum in the front of the grocery store. DH ended up paying for groceries while DD and I took time out in the car.

I have seen 8 and 9 year olds still throwing tantrums over this same stuff. I need to teach DD that it isnt appropriate as I do not want a 9 or 10 yo on my hand who does that.
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#207 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 03:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Minky
If you comforted him you would reinforce the behavior.
I'm still not understanding why you think comforting him reinforces the behavior? He's not looking for comfort in the example, he's looking for biscuits. Comforting lets him know you validate his feelings. Reinforcing would be saying "OK, here have a biscuit."

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#208 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 03:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Minky
I have seen 8 and 9 year olds still throwing tantrums over this same stuff. I need to teach DD that it isnt appropriate as I do not want a 9 or 10 yo on my hand who does that.
I also wanted to mention that my nephew is 10 and still does this - but it's not because his mother comforts him, it's because she gives him what he wants when he has one. Big difference. Gentle Disclipline versus No Disclipline. Believe me your 9 or 10 year old will not have a tantrum in the supermarket because you hugged him through the rough patches at 3 years old.

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#209 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 03:13 PM
 
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You have a very good point. I will think it over, k?

I do comfort DD to a certain extent but I also remove her from the situation. She does not at this age have time out's alone, she sits on the step and I stand nearby and we talk it out, or if we're in public, we stand by the car or sit in the car.

But I don't let her stay in the store if she is causing issues in the store or in the kitchen if she is causing issues there.
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#210 of 252 Old 10-22-2005, 03:17 PM
 
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i can't get over the canned biscuits personally.
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