when to start with manners? - Page 11 - Mothering Forums
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#301 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 07:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
I was not clear in my post. The last paragraph of my post was not in reference to the "sheeple" discussion. It was in reference to the forced manners discussion. I should have ordered my paragraphs accordingly.
IN which case you are right. Poor manners are a big pet peeve of mine.
I see almost every day examples of people whose parents did not teach them any manners. THis is especially true on the roadway.
But I am not really interested so much any more in how manners are taught, if modeling only works/ well great.
My interest (towards the end of this thread) is in how low they are valued overall.
Issues with that? Uh huh!
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#302 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 07:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
IN which case you are right. Poor manners are a big pet peeve of mine.
I see almost every day examples of people whose parents did not teach them any manners. THis is especially true on the roadway.
But I am not really interested so much any more in how manners are taught, if modeling only works/ well great.
My interest (towards the end of this thread) is in how low they are valued overall.
Issues with that? Uh huh!

Well, amazingly, we agree on something I too agree that manners have seemed to have dwindled. Most of the people I come into contact with have great manners. But I have run into some that are not so mannered. That might factor into whether or not I want to start or maintain a relationship with them. But they might be happy being mannerless and friendless people. Some people are. Or maybe they are just unhappy? I do get the nagging feeling that our society on a whole is less and less happy. I personally like manners. I wish the whole world adhered to them. But I cannot control the whole world and if my breed is dying, well there is little I can do about that.....except using my manners until I die too.
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#303 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 08:05 PM
 
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The term "sheeple" very distinctly strips a group of human beings of their very HUMANITY by virtue of sharing qualities that you do not value.
"sheeple" implies that one is not really a fully functioning fully realized human being but a sheep.
How can stripping the humanity of a group of people be anything but derogatory?
It is exactly the same as any of a number of animal references to different groups, such as racial or ethnic groups.
It is no more OK to say that I am a "sheeple" than it is to call another group "monkeys" or "pigs".
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#304 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 08:08 PM
 
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Actually, I think all animals are incredible sentient beings (including sheep). Sheep just tend to herd together and follow a crowd.

Let's not be too tough on the sheep. They are pretty great too.
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#305 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ambdkf
Actually, I think all animals are incredible sentient beings (including sheep). Sheep just tend to herd together and follow a crowd.

Let's not be too tough on the sheep. They are pretty great too.
And I would imagine they would be pretty upset at being called "sheeple" as well. As it woudl imply they were less than fully actualized sheep. Bu tsome type of human/sheep hybrid.
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#306 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ambdkf
Actually, I think all animals are incredible sentient beings (including sheep). Sheep just tend to herd together and follow a crowd.

Let's not be too tough on the sheep. They are pretty great too.
Yeah, I think the term is more about following the crowd witrhout much thought.
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#307 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johub
The term "sheeple" very distinctly strips a group of human beings of their very HUMANITY by virtue of sharing qualities that you do not value.
"sheeple" implies that one is not really a fully functioning fully realized human being but a sheep.
How can stripping the humanity of a group of people be anything but derogatory?
It is exactly the same as any of a number of animal references to different groups, such as racial or ethnic groups.
It is no more OK to say that I am a "sheeple" than it is to call another group "monkeys" or "pigs".
:
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#308 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 09:23 PM
 
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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sheeple

Public Education's goal is conformity, compliance and compulsion, no?

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#309 of 317 Old 12-21-2005, 09:24 PM
 
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I just gotta say that after reading most of this thread(which has taken a while!) I am constantly amazed that people that have found this board and share here would call the people of this discussion board sheep like. Sheep tend to be easily led and do what the others do out of instinct. I have read radical moms, crunchy moms, out there moms, but really no herd like moms. We are here because we are different from the American Baby reading parents. Really if we are so stuck on our opinions being the one and only right way wouldn't that mean that we are expecting the people reading and posting to just shut up and follow us? Nicknames like sheeple may be amusing but like other "names" they are just a way to make a group inferior to us because they do not agree with us.
As for the manners things, my daughter who is 2 has amazing manners without being taught at all, just modeled. My son is nearly 7 and I will occasionally remind him, but he doesn't really need it much. It depends on what works for you, like most everything parenting related.
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#310 of 317 Old 12-22-2005, 01:35 AM
 
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Here is an article from John Taylor Gatto demonstrating the process of public education in action: http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tma68/7lesson.htm The process creates dependency. No "name calling" was intended, the point is the process of developing adults who follow 'authority' without thinking is intentional, useful and practical. But, I am not interested in participating. Thankyouverymuch. I mean that.

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#311 of 317 Old 12-22-2005, 02:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by scubamama
I believe it comes down to whether we trust that our children are inherently social and abled to discern and learn what is necessary, or whether we expect that our children need to be taught and/or have imposed direction to learn 'what we deem necessary'. When we choose to "expect" something, then we are judging if it does or doesn't occur, yet. I trust that what needs to be learned will be learned when our son needs to learn it. Because he is able and he trusts that he is able. Just as I am able and trust that I am able.
I believe my children are inherently social and able to discern and learn what is necessary, and I will help in this process by telling them what I know. This an incredibly complex society we live in, and I am going to impart the small wisdom I've gleaned throughout my scarce years the best I can. My children can pick and choose what they keep and take onto their adult lives, but at least they'll have it.

Oh, and by the way, I am able to learn, I trust that I'm able to learn, AND I am a product of public education. And while I believe our public education system is deeply flawed, I think the deduction that any instruction at all is going to rob your child of their ability to think for themselves is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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#312 of 317 Old 12-22-2005, 11:25 AM
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and I am going to impart the small wisdom I've gleaned throughout my scarce years the best I can.
I don't think that statement is what people are neccessarily having issues with. I certainly don't. I don't think there is anything wrong with providing information in a conversational setting that will assist children in making informed decisions. In other words, say I am writing a thank you note to someone and my child asks "whatcha' doing"" (as most children are interested in what their parents are doing) ... I would explain that I am writing a thank you note to so and so because they sent me a lovely card/gift whatever, and I wanted them to know how much I appreciated their thought. End of story. I imparted the information in a non-coercive, non-manipulative, conversational way...trusting that my child has observed and will process the information and use it in the future if she chooses....

I think the issue is arising because people are doing more than just "imparting wisdom"...they are lecturing in the car ride over, they are watching their child's reaction when opening the gift (or whatever), they are giving "the look", taking them aside, nudging them to say the "right" words, "reminding" them in front of others to say the "right" words, and so on...

That is where I disagree. I don't have a problem at all with manners, social customs (as it relates to manners), modeling, or sharing information with my daughter about how *most* people react in certain situations, or about why I do the things I do (write thank you notes, etc)...or a combination thereof. That is where It stops though for me. That is where she is given the choice with the information she has, the observations she has made, and the modeling she has seen to decide whether or not she chooses to act, or not.

As far as the educational system, I am just speaking for myself when I say that looking back now, it was all about conforming, learning how to "act", survival of the fittest (or richest, or prettiest, or best behaved if you will), and learning 12 years of stifling independant thought, but for one or two teachers who I felt really nurtured thought and individuality (they were rare though).
It has taken me years to "undo" that in my head and in my life and I am finally there (though we are all works in progress). Schools in general are not big on independant thought or anyone who goes against the grain in my experience.
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#313 of 317 Old 12-22-2005, 11:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
This has me almost in tears! I would never want someone, especially my child to feel they need to learn such a skill.
IMO, there is nothing wrong with expressing your feelings.
Hey, MITB, how do you compromise this with your post from three day prior to this one, where you said:

Quote:
When in public, there are certain acceptable and unacceptable behaviors that we, as parents, are expected to teach our children. If a person cannot use acceptable behaviors in public, then maybe they are not ready to be in public.
It sounds to me like there you were advocating for teaching children to behave in socially acceptable ways when in public, even if that is counter to the child's feelings or desires. Yet, here, you seem to be saying that a child should never feel forced to act in a socially acceptable way just because someone has deemed it "courteous".
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#314 of 317 Old 08-19-2006, 06:22 PM
 
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subbing so I can wade through all these posts...

Mama to my spirited J, and L, my homebirth: baby especially DTaP, MMR (family vax injuries)
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#315 of 317 Old 08-19-2006, 08:32 PM
 
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I teach my children by example... I say please and thank you to them, and they say it back without ever having been told to.
I respect them, and so they have learned how to be respectful to others
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#316 of 317 Old 08-20-2006, 07:22 PM
 
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I was wonderign about this a few months ago but my ds has had a verbal breakthrough and says thank you and you're welcome! I had no idea how he learned that until I paid attention to myself...and its just such a habit to say please, thank you, good morning, you're welcome, may I, excuse me, good night etc that I just didn't notice I said those to him too.

apparently that's how

*ETA* I only read the first page of replies before replying myself...

Jami (25) Roland (27) & Caleb (5), Jacob (3.5) , Kaitlyn (2)
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#317 of 317 Old 01-16-2007, 07:39 PM
 
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Bumping.

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