A spanking mom verbally attacked me yesterday. REALLY long. - Page 7 - Mothering Forums

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#181 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by sabrinat
I might get flamed for this, but....I don't agree with spanking at all. But. I also don't agree that you should have commented at that time on it. If the situation was as you described it appears to me that those were people that didn't deal well with stressful situation (case in point...whaling on a toddler for being a toddler) Adding a bit of kerosene by making a judgment on what they were doing was not the best course of action you could have taken. I myself get so annoyed by the same type of thing. When people say things not really at you, but about you, but loud enough for you to hear. What is that!!! You could have spoken to your children later and said something like "Remember what happened at dinner..."
Just my opinion
Right... but one of my kids is two. Plus, to have waited and done it in secret would have only taught my children to speak up but only in the comfort of your own home.

God, frankly, I wish I had never brough this up. You can say pretty much anything here and someone will turn it around on you 8 ways til sunday. The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children.

Amy: Certified Professional Midwife and mom to Max (11) and Stella (6).
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#182 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 01:52 AM
 
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I cant believe anyone is arguing that hitting a child is not a abuse. It doesnt matter if it was once, twice or 15.. its abuse regardless. Hitting ANYONE is abuse, its not ok because they are too small to defend themselves How disturbing to read this here of all places.
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#183 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 01:53 AM - Thread Starter
 
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LOL, I KNOW! I feel after this thread. I wish it would die die die....

Amy: Certified Professional Midwife and mom to Max (11) and Stella (6).
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#184 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 01:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheena
Right... but one of my kids is two. Plus, to have waited and done it in secret would have only taught my children to speak up but only in the comfort of your own home.

God, frankly, I wish I had never brough this up. You can say pretty much anything here and someone will turn it around on you 8 ways til sunday. The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children.
You absoultely should not have to wait til you are home or whisper to explain to your children that hitting is wrong. That would imply its something wrong that no one should talk about. mama you did the right thing.
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#185 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 01:57 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheena
I'm in Texas where they actually passed a resolution last year clarifying that spanking IS legal.
You know, your story actually makes more sense now. Texas.

I had a friend and neighbor when I lived in Israel who grew up in Texas. She had all kinds of whacked ideas about 'normal' parenting (formula, bottle propping, smacking your kid if they 'sassed', even told about how she got paddled in HIGH SCHOOL!!!). It became kind of a joke between another mom and I who were more natural/GD leaning. Whenever she would start with one of her parenting gems we would just look at one another, roll our eyes and say 'Texas!'
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#186 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 02:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mama2kyla
I cant believe anyone is arguing that hitting a child is not a abuse. It doesnt matter if it was once, twice or 15.. its abuse regardless. Hitting ANYONE is abuse, its not ok because they are too small to defend themselves How disturbing to read this here of all places.

s

panking IS abuse even if it IS a discipline choice, even if it is common, even if it is illegal. The law is wrong, the citizenship is wrong, it's just wrong....

Sheena was right and had every right to explain to her children then and there..I have a 2 year old and no way I wouldn't have explained on the spot and abusive parents be damned if they overheard.

A mama who is anti-spanking who is verbally abused because she explained her stance to her own children should be able to come here of all places for support without having to explain herself.

Just because she didn't do exactly what you or I would have done(I would have turned on harrassing mama and called her on her highschool behaviour) doesn't mean what she did do was wrong in any way.

There is no way to stop people from spanking their children if those of us who know in our hearts it's abusive and wrong don't speak up. Maybe it's teh child that will break the cycle by learning that there is another way and their children will not be spanked because they learned that. That it's not the only way or the right way to raise children.

People have different comfort levels when it comes to confrontation...I am a "bring it" kind of person, others are more subtle and quiet. We do what works in our lives. Sheena did right even though she did different from me. She has my support. I am sorry you had to deal with this Sheena but you know you did your best in the situation you were in...I wish you had gotten 100% support here...you deserve it.
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#187 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 03:06 AM
 
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I am a "bring it" kind of person too, but only when I'm the only possible target for vengeance...

Sheena wrote:

"The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children."

When you choose to defend your own children's emotional welfare in a manner that further endangers another child's physical welfare, then you certainly shouldn't expect hugs and cuddles for it on MDC or anywhere else. I think those of us with more/different experiences dealing with these situation have been pretty darn gentle with you so far, understanding that it was a really tough situation that you were not prepared for.

Pat: I can support the idea of being a "child's voice of dissent," but taking on a violent, angry parent when the kid is too young to understand what you are saying? I'm not saying it's never right to confront a spanker, just that there are some situations where no possible good can come of it, and that part of advocating for children is recognizing that your actions can backfire.

I don't think you recognize that, Sheena. I don't think you've really taken to heart the fact that that baby may have paid for your words later on. I want you to acknowledge that, and let it inform your future actions.
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#188 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 03:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Smithie
When you choose to defend your own children's emotional welfare in a manner that further endangers another child's physical welfare, then you certainly shouldn't expect hugs and cuddles for it on MDC or anywhere else. I think those of us with more/different experiences dealing with these situation have been pretty darn gentle with you so far, understanding that it was a really tough situation that you were not prepared for.
I think the OP made it pretty clear she didn't confront the mother in question. Her parenting her own children in a way she sees fit endangers this other child how?
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#189 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 03:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mom2seven
I think the OP made it pretty clear she didn't confront the mother in question. Her parenting her own children in a way she sees fit endangers this other child how?



I can see where stepping in could wind up in a child getting hurt further but she didn't confront the abusive parents,she merely explained things to her own children..good thing to as far as Iam concerned. Also...the only thing I would have donedifferently would have been to confront the mom about harrassing me...called her on it. Maybe my way would have caused her to be angrier and after having a bad day go home and take it out further on the child but it's really hard to determine that...it would depend on if she's a violent person herself or if she is scared of her husband and trying to defend his methods to justify her fear of standing up to him and not protecting her child. I don't think what Sheena did would further endanger the child. She made the mom angrier but the mom wasn't the spanker.

I still feel you have to take a stand against hitting children in the name of discipline in order to stop it.
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#190 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 03:40 AM
 
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Oh, what a load of hooey. I never speak about the people AT THE NEXT TABLE unless I'm willing to accept the possibility of being overheard. I doubt anybody else here does either. What a cop-out.
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#191 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 03:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Smithie
Oh, what a load of hooey. I never speak about the people AT THE NEXT TABLE unless I'm willing to accept the possibility of being overheard. I doubt anybody else here does either. What a cop-out.
O-kaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay. Moving right along.
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#192 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 03:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Smithie
Oh, what a load of hooey. I never speak about the people AT THE NEXT TABLE unless I'm willing to accept the possibility of being overheard. I doubt anybody else here does either. What a cop-out.

Not sure what you mean by this exactly or what you are referring to but I think the OP did probably know there might be consequences(sorry to speak for you OP, correct me if I am wrong) though she didn't expect them to be so extreme. I think she was just venting to us about it. I think she was more disturbed that people were supporting spanking and that it's so prevalent that everyone in the place was pro-spanking...That was very disturbing about this incident.

Isn't that really what is disturbing about the OP..the fact that spanking was so acceptable and she was the lone voice of dissent.

It's really really sad...I dont' really think that the dad went home and spanked teh kid more because of this...because they think they were proven right.

However if a bunch of people had stood up and supported the OP against the spankers then I would be concerned that teh parents would take their anger out on the kids later in private. In this case the spankers were supported and thus probably actually feel better about their choice to spank than before.

and that really really saddens me
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#193 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 03:59 AM
 
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Right along to what? The part where outcomes don't matter, as long as our ideology is upheld, in public, at the exact moment of the offense, in a "normal tone of voice?"

I understand that Sheena wanted support after having a negative experience, and I can empathize with that. But really, her experience PALES in comparison to that child's experience, and I think it's appropriate for us all to to think about what we would do in a similar situation to ENSURE that our actions don't garner a kid an extra smack for good measure. I would hate it if my son were upset when he witnessed a public spanking. I'd hate it even more if a conversation we had about it within earshot resulted in the situation being escalated.
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#194 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 04:01 AM
 
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You may be right, allgirls. I hope so.
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#195 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 04:08 AM
 
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You may be right, allgirls. I hope so.

me too
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#196 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 04:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by scubamama
Does Dr. Sears have a "responsible" spanking rule???? If so I am going to drop over from stress.

Pat
Scubamama, not really,; it's complicated. I have an article in one of my motherings I can PM you if you'd like.

~Nay

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#197 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 04:47 AM
 
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I was being sarcastic. I'm sorry that wasn't clear. The rest of my post was not sarcastic. Call it a dry humor that doesn't come across the web very well.
I got it

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#198 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 04:49 AM
 
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I though Dr. Sears took this tactic: "I don't support it, but if you are bound and determined to do it, here's some of the things that are MOST harmful about spanking, so try and avoid these particular scenarios."
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#199 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 05:44 AM
 
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I completely disagree that Sheena should be held accountable for another person's bad actions. She did not deliberately stir up trouble. She did not try to antagonize the woman. She made a rational comment to her own children that was unfortunately overheard by someone that escalated things of her own accord. It's not like she was doing the "stage whisper," hoping to be overheard, hoping to opinionate on the topic. She did the RIGHT thing, by educating her children that this was a wrong act. Should she be expected to censor every remark she ever makes because someone might overhear and react bizarrely to it? If sadly, that child was hit again because of the parents' embarrassment, I would argue that she was not responsible for it, and that for every child that is hit more after a comment, there are at least as many if not more that are hit more for lack of such a comment or intervention. Heavens, there are some reports of domestic abusers abusing more after the abused woman attempts to leave -- should we condemn all those terrible people who operate shelters for these women to come to??? Should the people whose peaceful protests led to violent retaliations be held responsible for those acts of violence? And this is coming from a Republican!!!

It's quite one thing to say to Sheena, well, what do you expect? in a sympathetic tone. To say that unfortunately in today's society, there are psycho people who hit their kids and think it's right and who are abusive to people who call this into question. Empathizing with the fact that it is hard to shield your kids from it, to reassure them without fearing the ramifications, and to make positive changes in society.

But to say this to her accusatorally, to suggest that she was in the wrong for doing it (versus just naive or unprepared for what ended up happening) IMO is casting blame on the wrong person.

Part of why this angers me is that as a doctor, one of the things that has been drilled into me is that we don't tell patients often enough the things we think they will be unreceptive to (e.g. you need to lose weight, you need to stop smoking, you need to stop driving while intoxicated without a seatbelt, etc.) I'm at the hospital right now on call, and earlier had a three year old intubated with major injuries because her mother didn't have her in a carseat. I would be negligent NOT telling her mother that that was an incredibly wrong thing to do. Sheena wasn't even going that far. She was just talking with her own family, in a public place, yes, but that still did not justify that woman's reaction to her.

Sheena, I give you a for not allowing your kids to at all unsure of how you stand and for the unfortunate consequences.

Shannon, mama to Jack :
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#200 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 05:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mom2seven
You know, your story actually makes more sense now. Texas.

I had a friend and neighbor when I lived in Israel who grew up in Texas. She had all kinds of whacked ideas about 'normal' parenting (formula, bottle propping, smacking your kid if they 'sassed', even told about how she got paddled in HIGH SCHOOL!!!). It became kind of a joke between another mom and I who were more natural/GD leaning. Whenever she would start with one of her parenting gems we would just look at one another, roll our eyes and say 'Texas!'

Oh! Oh! Oh! And did she tell you the paddles had HOLES in them?

At least they do here.

Texas sucks.

mv
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#201 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 05:58 AM
 
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THE PERSON WHO HITS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HITTTING. Let's be clear on this. NO ONE can MAKE someone else HIT THEIR CHILD. It's not the neighbor's fault, the laundry woman's fault, the garbage collector's fault, or even W's fault. It's certainly not the child's fault. And in this case, it would NOT be Sheena's fault if that BABY got hit again. It is ONLY the FAULT of the PERSON who does the HITTING.
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#202 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 08:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheena
LOL, I KNOW! I feel after this thread. I wish it would die die die....
:

Sheena

Why is it that in every single thread of moms sharing a particular difficult/sad day or event looking for support, there are always posts turning against that mom in one level or another??
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#203 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 09:14 AM
 
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Sheena you were absolutely right to speak up and try to comfort your children. What a terrifying scene for them to witness, beating a BABY! The poor baby, hopefully the baby will know that somebody cared and it was wrong to be hit. Even in Texas, which from what I hear is one of the worst spanking places, it would probably be considered abuse to hit a baby, the law there says "reasonable" physical punishment. It's not reasonable to hit a baby. The baby was just crying for Pete's sake. How horrible that Sheena was then harrassed by the mother of the baby! And the others in the room joined in!?!

I think people in the US need to start thinking about children as something other than possessions, for parents to do with as they please. Hitting babies is just wrong, and when someone is brave enough to say something out loud about it, then they should be congratulated for their honesty and bravery! Over 100 research studies have shown hitting children is bad for them, but some parents don't want to give up their "right" to whack little ones I guess! I don't think it's useful to compare hitting to bf-ing or family bed, hitting has been proven to be harmful where bf-ing and family bed have been proven to be GOOD for babies! Parents should do good things for their babies, and when they mess up badly, like a full-grown man smacking a baby, they should be told to stop it. Protecting an abuser's ego by not saying anything just lets them off the hook, who gains if nobody speaks up? The baby isn't going to be hit more if someone speaks against it - what nonsense! More likely it will make those baby-hitters think twice about beating their little one, at least in a public place. Babies get injured and die from being hit. Never hit a baby!

My hat off to Sheena, we need to speak up more for the little ones. I would have threatened to call the cops on my cell phone if that "mother" had harrassed me
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#204 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 11:02 AM
 
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Links in this post may be disturbing

I wrote (about spanking) that "it was abuse" and this was one response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThinkBlu
By YOUR definition?
Yes, and Alice ******'s, and Irwin Hyman's....spanking can cause aggression, violent behavior, anxiety, depression, addiction, lowered IQ because it can stall intellectual development, and other problems.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin4.htm

Spanking is violence, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics and several major mental health organizations.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin1.htm

Have you read the "sticky" at the top of this board with rules for this message board, which read in part:

Quote:
Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=113264

Take the time to heal from your marriage before you move on with someone else. Make a list of all the qualities you would like in a new partner and then work on growing that way yourself. ~mandib50
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#205 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 11:20 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Sheena
Right... but one of my kids is two. Plus, to have waited and done it in secret would have only taught my children to speak up but only in the comfort of your own home.

God, frankly, I wish I had never brough this up. You can say pretty much anything here and someone will turn it around on you 8 ways til sunday. The last thing I envisioned at the GD board was defending my actions to defend my own children.
I am sorry that your had that experience.
You have said in several of your post that you weren't looking for a conforntation, only reinforcing your own belief system as a teachable moment, right? But I'm getting confused becuz now it sounds like you wanted the woman to hear what you were saying to teach her something.
I find it ironic that you're less than thrilled by the mixed responses to your experience, becuz in essence someone is saying your parenting technique was wrong in the same way you said her technique was wrong .
I'm on MDC becuz I prescribe to the majority of the belief systems shared by other mama on this board.
The spanking of a child IS WRONG. I just disagree with being passive/aggressive. If you want to stand up and make a point...Do it! Tell the mama, "Hey, there's another way", say it to her clearly while looking her in the eye, don't criticize her parenting in front of her children.

Sabrina , mom to 4 fab kids!

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#206 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 11:21 AM
 
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ugh, reading your post made me sick to my stomach. I would've been SO upset if I had witnessed the dad spanking his toddler. SO upset. I feel ill when I see people spank their dogs in public.

Hugs to you Mama!!!

ETA: Just read most of the thread....wow...can't believe it has gotten so turned around. If you can't come to MDC to post about something like this without getting criticized, then something is wrong.

I think its very easy for people to sit at their computers and read the OP and think through what they may have done differently in the situation, but people please remember that when something like this is happening to/in front of you there is no such luxury. Most of us have situations that we look back at and think "I wish I would have said XYZ".

I think its unfortunate that in expressing opinions around here, the OP has been criticized for her GD opinion, especially on the GD forum.
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#207 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 12:29 PM
 
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I wonder if those who are shaming the OP for speaking up are having traumatic memories of their own which color their debate with her. I remember being a child in a violent (spanking) home, you learn to be as quiet as a mouse, don't make waves, don't speak up. The whole thing is so sad.

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#208 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 12:38 PM
 
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I think you said the baby did NOT stop crying? I believe THAT proves your point. Kids do need discipline - Effective Discipline - and spanking is NOT effective discipline.

Poor little baby . . . . .

TripMom . . . . . loving mom : to DS (7) and BBG (4.5)
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#209 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I want you to acknowledge that, and let it inform your future actions.
Aside from the fact that you have put an entirely different spin on my experience where in the world do you get off wanting me to do ANYTHING? Please.


Quote:
When you choose to defend your own children's emotional welfare in a manner that further endangers another child's physical welfare, then you certainly shouldn't expect hugs and cuddles for it on MDC or anywhere else. I think those of us with more/different experiences dealing with these situation have been pretty darn gentle with you so far, understanding that it was a really tough situation that you were not prepared for.
And what in the world does that mean? "Being gentle" with me... hmm, thanks, mom. No room for mistakes in your world, I guess. I'm insulted about 3X over by your posts.

I certainly did come here looking for some "hugs" and understand, fully admitting I felt like maybe I had made a mistake. I refuse to live my life (and have all conversations) in constant fear that someone else might hear me, that is not a "cop-out", as you so accusingly claimed, but more a matter of my belief in free speech.

I mean, what would you have done? Take the mom aside and said, "Listen, there are other ways to discipline your child." And do you really think the outcome would be any different?

Amy: Certified Professional Midwife and mom to Max (11) and Stella (6).
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#210 of 216 Old 01-01-2006, 05:15 PM
 
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It wasn't my intention to insult you, Sheena, and if you really did come to this conversation open to the idea that you had made a mistake, I completely missed that and got distracted by what other people were saying and that is MY error, certainly not yours. I apologize for that as well.

"I mean, what would you have done? Take the mom aside and said, "Listen, there are other ways to discipline your child." And do you really think the outcome would be any different?"

Who knows? I would probably have taken my toddler to the bathroom for a "diaper change" so we could discuss it there while my dh and older child moved our stuff to another table. But I've had DAYS to think about this, plus previous experience in similar situations to guide me, and you didn't have either of those things.

Maybe it was a cheap shot to suggest that the baby received extra abuse because you were overheard. We can never know that for sure either way. What DEFINITELY wound up happening was that all children involved (yours, theirs, plus any others in earshot) got to see a scarily enraged adult supported by a roomful of calmer adults, all insisting that kids must be hit for their own good. That's not your fault in any way, but I still hope it's on your mind the next time you are trying to figure out how to react to a public spanking. I don't envy you this aspect of life in Texas - I had a choice between life in Houston and Seattle and I am grateful for the privilege of that choice every day. It must be tough to practice AP and GD when the local culture is in such opposition to it. If I'm being too hard on you, maybe that's a reflection on how easy I have it as a GD-inclined parent out here on the Left Coast. :

I never want you to feel what I felt when that toddler in Philadelphia hit the ground one more time (and harder) because her mother felt the need to react to my reaction. It's been five years, and I still think about it often.
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