"Spanking: I spared the rod and my kids smacked me with it" - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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#61 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 02:41 AM
 
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letters@post-dispatch.com

I wouldn't waste my time with the author whose mind is made up. She doesn't sell crack, does she?

Letters to the editor sent to the above addy will suffice.
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#62 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 09:41 AM
 
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CB, I love your writing. Love, love, love it. Every post you write is a joy to read.

You and the other mamas have helped me by posting your beautiful letters. You have undoubtedly helped other mamas as well. I don't spank, and I strive to be GD, but sometimes I fail and I yell. Your letter (and the others) are very helpful to me and will help keep me on the GD path.

Thank you all for sharing. Even if you don't get through to that icky woman, you will get through to all those who read your posts. Some of us work very hard within ourselves every day to undo the damage done to us as children, and we are trying to break the cycle so our children are treated better than we were. Your letters help very much.
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#63 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mamadawg
Wow. That is truly disgusting. I may be really dense, but was she trying to be funny?
I think she was. How hitting your kid can ever be funny though I will never understand.

writermommy, I too am a bit shocked that she received so many positive responses - she seems almost disappointed that she didn't get more hate mail or maybe she's just pretending she didn't like you said.

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#64 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 12:35 PM
 
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Wow, Tiger Tail and Redwine...thank you!!
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#65 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 09:45 PM
 
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I got a response from her. I can't quote the whole thing for copyright reasons but I'll paraphrase...

Basically she said that I was one of two people that wrote to her in a gentle manner. She then went on to say that there is a difference between corporate punishment and child abuse (she's right there - one is legal, the other isn't). She accuses me of not reading her whole column defending herself by saying she only spanks when necessary. She also tells me she's ONLY spanked her 13 month old twice. Finishes off with some stuff about people not judging other parenting choices and urging me to read more of her stuff on her website.

Why on earth would I want to read more from her website??? How someone can think it's OK to spank a 13 month old I will never know.

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#66 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 10:03 PM
 
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I wrote back with this:

Quote:
Thank you for the reply. Just wanted to comment that I in fact did read the entire column, I'm not sure why you think I didn't. I'm sorry you will not look into other methods of discipline. You really don't know if other gentler methods will work until you try them - dismissing them is not constructive. Hitting a 13 month old baby is child abuse in my mind no matter how you sugar coat it. Best of luck to you and your family.

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#67 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 10:14 PM
 
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WOW, spanking a baby, what a way to hit a life time low. Poor kid. Did she write back to anyone else. Did she comment to anyone why she feels it is ok to call her kids names?

Solo Mum to 4 and loving every minute of it!!!!
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#68 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 10:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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she said "spanking isn't hitting." that was her whole defense.

how pathetic.

i just wanted to remind everyone that you should be able to go to her blog and leave a comment. a comment that she can't removed as far as i know. so all the letters she has been ignoring (anti-spanking) can get posted in the comments section of her blog. (actually it's her website so she might be able to take off the comments i don't know).

also, pass the article along to all the anti-spanking lists you know and encourage them to email her. normally i wouldn't say something like that, but man her attitude is just well, crappy.




"Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift." -- Mary Olivercoolshine.gif

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#69 of 126 Old 01-08-2006, 10:36 PM
 
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And here is the reply she sent me. Any of you mamas care to give me your .02 before I write back? I'd especially love to hear from anyone who describes her- or himself as Christian and/or anti-"rod." This is the entire letter, BTW, which begins as if in midsentence; I don't know why.

Maybe it's the crack?

[Edited to be in compliance with the UA]
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#70 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 12:06 AM
 
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I read in interpritation of Proverbs 23:13-14 once. Christ came as the final sacrifice, to deliver our souls from Hell. To use proverbs as an excuse to beat a child means you are denying the Savior, as He is the only one who can save our souls from Hell.

Here is a good blog with some gentle Christian Biblical references http://www.xanga.com/MarynMunchkins

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#71 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 12:19 AM
 
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My reply:

"It is perfectly normal for a one-year-old to desire to explore a Christmas tree. In fact, it is CRITICAL for proper brain development that children explore things. You know that a Christmas tree has a rough, spindly texture. You know that the glassy balls are smooth to the touch. You even know that they are breakable. You know that the lights feel slightly warm and if you cup them in your closed hand, they will light up the dark. Your one-year-old does not know these things! The reason he has such a relentless drive to explore things – to touch, taste, and feast his little eyes on new things – is because it is absolutely critical to his developing brain. His synapses fire off at a rapid pace and vital neural connections are formed each time he explores something new! This is his first time seeing a Christmas tree – something new, wondrous, beautiful, and with infinite possibilities for exploration. Let him explore your tree. Hold his little hand and show him how to be gentle. Talk about the texture and the color. When you cannot supervise his access to the tree – simply gate it off! He is not being naughty by looking at you while he explores the tree. He is pleading with you – “I NEED to do this. I don’t know why. I have a drive to explore new things. Please don’t stop me!” I encourage you to read the book, “What’s Going on in there? How the Brain and Mind Develop in the First Five Years of Life” by Lise Eliot."
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#72 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 12:32 AM
 
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You should be very proud of your daughter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shanagirl
Ok -- so after dd said that we talked about spanking and she who is enamored with our new computer said, "Could I send an email to that lady?" So here is what she sent, no coaching from me other than asking, 'why' to her statements.

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.



Ok-- I'm sure this isn't going to make a big impact on Dawn, but as part of my belief in not hitting my child, the column provided a nice opportunity to talk about my child about it. So it was really interesting to see the expression on her face as she was listening to the column. When I read, "fat faced snowman eyes," she kind of flinched and raised her eyebrows and said, "She is his mom saying that?"
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#73 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 12:49 AM
 
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#74 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 01:04 AM
 
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umm am I the exception apparently? I was spanked and I'm NOT ok. Not only was I spanked, but when I was a young girl learning how to ride horses I had a mentally and physically abusive instructor. She taught me that it was ok to beat an animal to death. (I am so sad to say that I'm not exaggerating, I witnessed her flip a horse that cracked his skull and died) She taught me that it's ok to call a 10 year old a stupid slut. It takes every ounce of self control I have not to react with violence when I am really upset. I still have issues with calling people I love horrible names. I have the ability to recognize that this behavior is wrong, but sometimes I don't have the ability to control it. Since my dd was born, it completely baffles me how my parents could have hit me, how any parent could hit their child. I look at my dd sleeping in my arms right now and I know that the only lessons she will ever learn from me are ones of pure love. I hope that the love for my daughter will overcome my past.
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#75 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 01:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMama
I read in interpritation of Proverbs 23:13-14 once. Christ came as the final sacrifice, to deliver our souls from Hell. To use proverbs as an excuse to beat a child means you are denying the Savior, as He is the only one who can save our souls from Hell.

Here is a good blog with some gentle Christian Biblical references http://www.xanga.com/MarynMunchkins
Keep it comin', Jamesmama, because despite her inference, I am actually not a Bible thumper. She defines herself as a "Jesus freak"; if she'd said she were a Buddha freak, I would've quoted the words of the Buddha.

And can anyone help here -- if you're Christian, doesn't the philosophy of Christ supersede any contradictory stuff in the OT? Like if Proverbs says "beat" and Christ says "don't beat," doesn't Christ's POV win?
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#76 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 01:46 AM
 
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Ask her why her FIL, the reverend, has not managed to tell her about the real meaning behind 'spare the rod and spoil the child'. We were talking about this in another thread recently. Biblically the 'rod' was the staff which the shepherd used to guide the sheep. He would place the rod between the sheep and the danger, or he would gently guide the sheep with the rod. He didn't belt the sheep, hit them or spank them with it. The 'rod' in the Bible is gentle, non-violent guidance, not spanking.
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#77 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 01:49 AM
 
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Someone else already mentioned it, but she's setting her kids up for a self fulfilling prophecy. Parents shouldn't use 'don't' commands! If you only give a child one option, what are they going to do? If she said 'instead of jumping on your bed, how about you go outside and jump around the yard' he's got a different option. The child wouldn't have been hit for something she told him to do
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#78 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 01:54 AM
 
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I swear, I think she really is reacting specifically to the letters we sent her.
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#79 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 01:54 AM
 
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As a Christian I totally disagree and hope you who are not Christians think that she speaks for all of us ......I think the proverbs verse she is referring to was not meant to be taken literal (correct me if i'm wrong) but I believe proverbs not to be "law". I am a Jesus follower and as a Jesus follower I would not invoke corporal punishment on my children because that's not how Jesus would have discipled! Fire and brimstone simply does not work on a 13 month old!!!!!!!

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#80 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 02:04 AM
 
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CB, there are some wonderfully informative threads about Christianity and Discipline in the Religious Studies forum to search, one quite recent. Very, very applicable to what you're looking for .

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
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#81 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 02:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mykdsmomy
As a Christian I totally disagree and hope you who are not Christians think that she speaks for all of us ......I think the proverbs verse she is referring to was not meant to be taken literal (correct me if i'm wrong) but I believe proverbs not to be "law". I am a Jesus follower and as a Jesus follower I would not invoke corporal punishment on my children because that's not how Jesus would have discipled! Fire and brimstone simply does not work on a 13 month old!!!!!!!
I think most people on MDC realize that there are many Christians who don't beleive in corporal punishment! Personally, whenever I see anybody promoting violence in the name of religion (be it spanking or Jihad) I assume that they've completely misinterpreted their religious teachings.

You don't see advocates for spanking from Jewish sources (who read the Torah in its original Hebrew!) The "rod" or "staff" is used to GUIDE sheep, not beat them!

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#82 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 02:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caloli
We were talking about this in another thread recently. Biblically the 'rod' was the staff which the shepherd used to guide the sheep. He would place the rod between the sheep and the danger, or he would gently guide the sheep with the rod. He didn't belt the sheep, hit them or spank them with it. The 'rod' in the Bible is gentle, non-violent guidance, not spanking.
took words right out of my mouth, or right away from my fingers, so to speak!
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#83 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 02:20 AM
 
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I forgot also to mention that her little form letter, whose first two options state something to the effect of "I am a mother with no sense of humor who failed to see the tongue-in-cheek nature of this week's column."

I don't really see how it's tongue-in-cheek. Tongue-in-cheek means you are kidding. Dana is not. She spanks her kids, she's not kidding about that. What is the funny part? The "what do you think we had kids for? To smack'em!" I guess I would have a lot more respect for someone who actually did spank but did not treat the subject in so glib a manner.
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#84 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 02:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruthla
I think most people on MDC realize that there are many Christians who don't beleive in corporal punishment! Personally, whenever I see anybody promoting violence in the name of religion (be it spanking or Jihad) I assume that they've completely misinterpreted their religious teachings.

You don't see advocates for spanking from Jewish sources (who read the Torah in its original Hebrew!) The "rod" or "staff" is used to GUIDE sheep, not beat them!
Thanks Ruth....I just get so ANGRY when I see people using Christianity as a crutch to hit their kids.....and I totally agree with you when you say the rod is to guide the sheep.....EXACTLY!!!!

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#85 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 03:04 AM
 
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Here's my reply! I used several of your ideas, Mamas, thanks!

Dear Dana,
What I said really stung. Your conscience is still there, then; it has not yet been buried under a shell of brittle dismissiveness. What I said got to you; it bugged you; nothing could be clearer. Your conscience will not leave you in peace. I would suggest that this is because you know what I said is true and the better part of you will not let that truth be dismissed with a flippant remark.

I’d like to respond to your specific comments individually.
[Note to MDCers -- I am paraphrasing here. Dana suggests that her comments were intended to evoke laughter.]

Oh, c’mon, Dana, I’m sure you remember Psych. 101 when they pointed out that humor is an “acceptable” social form of aggression? There’s not much difference, after all, between
showing your teeth in a smile and showing them in a snarl...rather like the one on the homepage of your blog. You’re snarling, Dana, not smiling. You use humor -- or
what part of you calls humor -- as a disguise for aggression often, I’m thinking. I wouldn’t be surprised if you’ve said things like, “It was just a joke! Can’t you take a
joke? I was just KIDding
...” quite a great deal in response to others’ hurt feelings. Or horror. But what you also learned in Psych 101 is that people who snarl do so because they are scared. Anger, humor, lashing-out -- those are done because the person doing them is driven, deep down, by fear.

[Here, Dana asserts her maternal feelings for her offspring]

I think you do love them. It’s that love I’m hoping to appeal to, because I believe that’s the better part of you -- of us all, really. In our love for our children, we have the power
to make our children into our better selves, the selves we should have been. The glorious surprise is that in trying to make them better than we are, we end up becoming better
people ourselves. The clay has shaped the sculptor.

[Here, Dana alludes to her child:snowman comparison and asserts that it was a charming way to portray her son's obesity]



Ah, but why is your metaphor such a cold one? And why use a word as “fatness,” widened even more by your extra ‘t,’ in a culture which despises fat?

[Here, Dana asserts her lack of emotional investment in my dissent]

This must be why you have spent the near-entirety of your email thus far explaining this to me.

[Here, Dana asserts her lack of appreciation of those who strike the Bible with their fists so as to produce a resonant sound]

Dana, who is calling him- or herself a “Bible thumper”? Who are you really speaking of here? If you had been Confucian, I would have quoted you the words of K'ung Fu-Tzu.
Since you are a “Jesus freak,” I used the words of Jesus. So, this suggests that many other people besides me suggested that if you are going to call yourself Christian, you
should follow Christ. I agree.

[Dana suggests that I misquoted the Bible in my letter to her]

Which word was distorted, Dana? The one where Jesus says, “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the
Prophets” (Matthew 7:12)?

[Dana asserts her religious provenance: her FIL's religious profession, her FIL's tenuous connection with C.S. Lewis, and demands that I refrain from attempting to educate her on the subject.]


My father-in-law is an accountant. That doesn’t qualify me to be a company comptroller. Why shine in borrowed light anyway, Dana? I wouldn’t care if you were the illegitimate
child of the late Pope, to be honest; it neither lends you credibility nor does it detract from
it. I’m far more interested in dealing with you, not the men in your family or in their achievements. Their achievements are theirs. Not yours.

[Dana quotes Proverbs 23:13-14]

Then call yourself a Proverbian (although I also like “Proverbial”). If you are going to call yourself a follower of Christ, though, be like Christ. The man who wrote this proverb presumably beat his son -- and that son grew to be a tyrant. No surprise.

Violence begets violence. An eye for an eye, as Ghandi observed, will make the whole world blind. That’s why Christ preached nonviolence -- and in Christian belief, isn’t
Christ the only one who can save people’s souls from Hell? Not you? Your beating your child with the rod will not deliver your child’s soul from Hell, but it may have other costs.
You’ve already seen what your column advocating violence has done to you and your family: it brought the threat of more violence, didn’t it? I can only imagine how terrifying
that must have been if you took it seriously, and it sounded from your blog as if you did. What do you imagine would have happened if you’d written about something much more
genuinely radical: loving your children?

Dana, you can't be a Christian and strike your child. Oh, sure, you can call yourself whatever you want -- you can call yourself an emu or a toaster, but it doesn't make you be an emu or a toaster. To be a Christian you have to follow Christ, and the whole of the message of Christ, the one that is more important than anything that Abraham said or David said or Isaiah said or anyone said is simply this: "treat others the way you want to be treated."

Dana, I know no one is perfect at doing that. No one -- me, you, anyone -- is a perfect parent or a perfect person. But the reason this message is a valid one is that it is a place to start: How should I treat this person? What would I want in their place? Bottom line, for the followers of Christ -- the real “Jesus freaks” -- the message is not one of brutality or violence. It’s about letting go of anger, even righteous anger. It’s about not just deciding not to strike back, it’s about loving the person who struck you. It’s about seeing that of God in everyone, beginning (I hope) with our children.

And maybe even ending with ourselves.
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#86 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 03:13 AM
 
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CB ..... You have done it again.....your words are so eloquent ....thank you for writing something so beautiful that hopefully will strike the very core of her being and at least begin a change in her views of spanking ....

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#87 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 03:30 AM
 
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So her father in law had a MENTOR who was a PROTEGE of the late, great CS Lewis and THAT means she is an authority on Jesus and all things biblical?

Oh.

This logic gives me the total creeps, and helps me understand what kind of person we are dealing with, and I wish I had never read the original link to her column. It's a total waste of time to correspond with her.

I did tell her as a PS to my daughter's letter that I had just come across something really fascinating in a book about studies/interviews done on the people who had risked their own lives to help Jewish people escape Germany during WWII. The bottom line is, what all the rescuers had in common was that their parents had rarely hit them as children, and did not subscribe to the harsh child rearing practices of the time (later referred to as the Black Pedagogy). These children grew into people who were confidently, and quickly, able to reject authority when they knew it was wrong, and ACT with great empathy at the risk of their own lives.
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#88 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 09:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey228
umm am I the exception apparently? I was spanked and I'm NOT ok.
I was spanked and I'm NOT ok either. My relationship with my parents is distant even though we live within minutes of each other. I grew up wondering why my parents could strike me and then later tell me they loved me. These two don't mesh in my mind, they never have. When I was a teenager I was a runaway, I was wild, I was rebellious beyond normal. My parents tried talking to me then because I was too big to "spank" but ya know what - it was too late. I had no respect for them by that point and we had no connection.


Dana, you've made no bones about letting me know you are reading these posts on Mothering so I will address you here rather then in another e-mail... It's easy to be dismissing and write all us off as not understanding. Maybe we all just have easier kids then you? Maybe gentle methods only work for us but your kids have to be hit to understand? Really that's not true.

I think you do have a point in that if what you are after are children that obediantly obey you on first command (like a trained dog) then striking them will most certainly help you achieve this kind of relationship. But please consider that maybe you should be trying to achieve a relationship on a deeper level, one that involves a mutual trust and understanding.

I still haven't given up on you! I really think there might be hope because you are willing to at least discuss these issues. Please read the GD board here or some GD books and like someone else here urged you - give it just THREE WEEKS. THREE LITTLE WEEKS. Then you can write a column about your experiences in taking our 3 week test. What do you think?

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#89 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 09:58 AM
 
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Matthew 19:14 (New International Version)

14Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."


Just guessing here, but I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't want the people that the kindom of heaven belongs to, to be beaten. Ya know?

Solo Mum to 4 and loving every minute of it!!!!
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#90 of 126 Old 01-09-2006, 10:03 AM
 
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CB, you are amazing. Thank you again.

I hope this woman's children NEVER find her written descriptions of them or her confessions of "justified" violence. She will be a very lonely old lady indeed once her kids grow to understand how badly they were treated.
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