"Spanking: I spared the rod and my kids smacked me with it" - Mothering Forums
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
umami_mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: home is where the magic is
Posts: 5,131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/lif...6?OpenDocument

note her email address at the bottom of the article.....

"Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift." -- Mary Olivercoolshine.gif

umami_mommy is offline  
#2 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:01 PM
 
irinam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: San Fran Bay Area, California
Posts: 2,051
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
When he proved immune to hand-smacking, we knew we had to come up with a more intimidating form of punishment, fast
Speaking to the author ---> Wonderful... so when he "proves immune to spanking" what are you going to do? Come up with even MORE intimidating form of punishment? I think those are illegal, even in US...

As much as I want to I will not write an e-mail. It would be too emotionally charged and will spark hostility. If some of the more level-headed mamas will, it might be of service? For I will probably disagree with every sentence in this article one by one :
irinam is offline  
#3 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:04 PM
 
shanagirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I wonder if she wrote the headline too, because nowhere in her story do I see any evidence of her son hitting her with anything. What I do see is someone incapable of giving her child credit for a brain and unwilling to understand his perspective. How sad when people proudly attach their name and face to this attitude.
shanagirl is offline  
#4 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:12 PM
 
MelKnee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Upstate California
Posts: 1,208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
"Seriously though, if they're not spanking, maybe they're using Jedi mind tricks."

Well, she found me out. I control my ds with my mind!
I'll be honest, I didn't read the whole article. I couldn't get past her smacking her child over a christmas tree! Having a tree up is not that damn important. If the kid can't leave it alone, don't put it up! Wait until next year. :

Momma to three fine children, one that lives in my heart and two that live in my arms.
Circumcision is wrong, regardless of gender
MelKnee is offline  
#5 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:21 PM
 
guest9969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I love how she insults the letter writers in the actual article. Its as if she thinks, "If I call them frothy-mouthed, perhaps they will be shamed into silence." She is so mis-lead that I'm not even sure where to start with an e-mail.
guest9969 is offline  
#6 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:28 PM
 
Llyra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: right here
Posts: 9,450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What really got to me was where she compared a toddler to a dog.

:

me knit.gif, he bikenew.gif, my three reading.gif, sleepytime.gif, and fairy.gif-- and the one we lost angel2.gif
Llyra is offline  
#7 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:31 PM
 
quelindo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: On the road to find out
Posts: 3,129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
fat-faced, snowman eyes
Who would describe their child this way?

Oh, yeah, someone who thinks controlling her children through physical abuse is "working pretty good."

:

Formerly New Mama to Henry, born August 2005 and Silas, born November 2010.
quelindo is offline  
#8 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:44 PM
 
writermommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So what if the kid touches the Christmas tree?!? My 3 yo dd loves to take the ornaments off and play with them. We put the breakable ones up high and put the soft ones back on the tree when she's done playing. Not really a big deal here. The tree should be fun, or don't have one at all. I also love how she thinks you can't reason with a four year old. Shows she's never tried!

Pattie
(a frothy-mouthed non spanker)
writermommy is offline  
#9 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 09:59 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: raising the revolution
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Okay, so I fought every desire in me to tell her to go straight to hell... and composed this....

Ms. Loesch,

I was very saddened by your article on spanking. I was saddened because I truly believe you love your child and it seems, also believe that there is no other effective way to dissuade him from acting in ways that you find undesirable than to strike him.
It saddens me that someone who seems so intelligent would think themselves so incapable of an alternative solution to dealing with your four year old's very normal, and very age appropriate behavior.

Also troubling, is the fact that I am sure you would throw yourself in front of a bus to protect the life you brought into this world, yet at the same time see no issue with putting your hands on his body in a way that is neither loving, gentle, or really does anything to accomplish your greater goal --- to have him understand why taking lights off of Christmas trees and the like are not acceptable behaviors in your home or in society.

All spanking does is instill fear into a child. It sends the message that physical retaliation is an acceptable means of communication. Sure, in the short term it is effective in making children "obey", but they are doing so out of fear of being hit and no other reason. It does nothing to teach the greater lessons I am sure you seek to instill in him -- respect for others and their feelings, personal belongings and most of all, their right to exist without fear of physical retaliation.

In no other place in society is someone allowed to reprimand you physically. Your husband does not strike you when dinner is not on the table to his satisfaction. Your boss does not hit you when you are late with a deadline. The police are not allowed hit you if you have broken the law. All these actions would be considered violent, or at the very least, demeaning. I fear you are setting up a dynamic of fear in your relationship with your child that you make grow to regret when he gets too old, or too big for you to hit.

Sure, we all know people who were spanked and claim to suffer absolutely no mental or emotional pain from it. I wonder though, how is it possible to not be affected negatively in any way when you realize that the people who love you the most in this world thought nothing of striking you and instilling fear in you when there are perfectly gentle and effective alternatives.

You may wonder why I keep using terms like "hit" or "strike". That is exactly what you are doing. Sure, you (with society's help) can mask the real term for putting your hands on someone else to cause pain or fear as "spanking". In reality though, if you were committing the same action to anyone else but your child, it would be considered assault...even if it were on a "padded butt".

You can most certainly reason with a four year old, I have done it myself. Sure, it is not the same interaction as one with an adult, but it is possible. In your described situation, I would have said to my four year old..."I would appreciate it if you didn't play with those lights because I am afraid the tree will fall down." I would then redirect my child to something else pleasurable to play with. Sounds simple, but it usually works.

You are probably thinking, but I have to teach him a lesson! He has to know playing with the lights is bad bad bad!!! That is untrue in my opinion. Think of the same situation in the real world. You are at a friend's house and you see a lovely vase on the table. You pick it up and begin looking at it. Your friend doesn't want you to touch it because it is an antique from their dead grandmother or something. Your friend would not slap your hand and yell at you to put it down. Most likely they would say "That was my grandmother's and I am scared you may drop it." You would put the vase down. You weren't punished for showing interest in the vase, you weren't chastised. Much like your little boy and the lights, you thought the object was fascinating, and you wanted to look at it.

You are probably shaking your head and thinking, that would never work! I challenge you to this: You can go back to your method after you have tried mine for even 3 days. Are you up for it? Three days to see if the way I have described makes everyone's life more pleasurable.

The next time your son is doing something you don't want him to do, I challenge you to stop and think. Use the intelligence you have, coupled with the love you have for your child to look at life through his eyes for a moment. Instead of saying "NO!!" and hitting him on the butt, why don't you try the crazy, out there reasoning stuff? Why don't you trying saying "sweetie, I know you want to play with ____ but mama thinks you may break it/get hurt/make a mess/etc....but I know something fun we can do instead!" .... and redirect him to something you are okay with him playing with...

In my humble opinion, that teaches children the art of solving conflict with positive solutions that meet everyone's needs. It helps to build positive communication. It helps to build trust. It helps to create empathy for your feelings towards your belongings because while you may deny him one thing, you are attempting to give him another which meets his needs or wants. Aren't those the things that you want to be teaching instead of what you are teaching him now? Which is that he will get punished for taking interest in things that every four year old are attracted to...things like pretty lights.

He is not being bad, he is being four. Please remember that.

Captain Crunchy (real name though)

( I tried to be nice instead of calling her all kinds of expletives like I wanted...)
captain crunchy is offline  
#10 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 10:02 PM
 
mykdsmomy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: On the way to or from Starbucks
Posts: 3,384
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
my response to that article can best be described by this smiley :Puke

Here's me I married then we had dd15 , dd11 , ds10 , and then and now we and I blog!
mykdsmomy is offline  
#11 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 10:14 PM
 
MyLittleWonders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Always learning something new.
Posts: 8,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Oh man, I don't even know where to start ... I think if I wanted to truly comment on the article, I'd have to quote it sentence by sentence and then just put horrified smilies after them. Her impressions of children are frightening; her descriptions and comparrisons are down-right cruel. If I can compose myself even half as eloquently as captain crunchy, I'll send her off an email ... IF being the VERY operative word. : :

 Me + dh = heartbeat.gif ds (7/01), ds (11/03), ds (6/06)
and dd born 11/21/10 - our T21 SuperBaby ribbluyel.gif heartbeat.gif
MyLittleWonders is offline  
#12 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 10:18 PM
 
GranoLLLy-girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Capt Crunchy--Oh, I really do hope she reads your letter. It is right on--and speaks to her actions and not to her as a person--which keeps it from an attack of any kind--so hopefully she'll read it--and then get it.
I fear, however, that because she is expecting The Letters (as she describes them) that she is already shut down to the notion of reading an opinion that differs from her own. Sigh.
GranoLLLy-girl is offline  
#13 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
 
umami_mommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: home is where the magic is
Posts: 5,131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i would send one to the editor of the paper. and one to her.

there were some very funny (and dead on) responses to her on the UP forum (on alfie kohn's site)

"Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift." -- Mary Olivercoolshine.gif

umami_mommy is offline  
#14 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 11:20 PM
 
writermommy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The more I think about this article, the sadder I get. If even one mommy takes her advice..........
writermommy is offline  
#15 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 11:22 PM
 
Slabobbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,526
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Dude.

Mama to:Ben (12), Natalie (9), Zoe (5)
 
 
 
     

Slabobbin is offline  
#16 of 126 Old 01-06-2006, 11:49 PM
 
bethwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'd love to hear someone like this woman's response to Unconditional Parenting. I'd love to hear her talk her way out of it. The reason I love that book so much is that he doesn't say "this is my opinion" but he cites study after study that supports what he is saying. I'm sure somehow he'd be wrong, though.
bethwl is offline  
#17 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:07 AM
 
Hawkeyemama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 328
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Captain Crunchy- I love that you gave her a very reasoned example of how she might talk with/redirect her toddler. I hope she reads your letter.

Happy mom to the Boy and the Girl, with Baby coming soon
Hawkeyemama is offline  
#18 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:13 AM
 
Jadzia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just checked out her blog. Ewan, the one who got his first spanking, is ONE YEAR OLD.

Posted on 1/5/06:
Quote:
During a recent visit to the pediatrician for Ewan's year-old immunizations,
So she is spanking a BABY.

Mommy to DS Adrian 8/10/04 and DD Geneva 9/02/09
Jadzia is offline  
#19 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:18 AM
 
paquerette's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Poconos
Posts: 6,818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Captain Crunchy, you really ARE a super hero! That's one heck of a letter.

(You should get your own comic, like Hathor )
paquerette is offline  
#20 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:28 AM
 
guest9969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadzia
I just checked out her blog. Ewan, the one who got his first spanking, is ONE YEAR OLD.


Not that it is ok at any age but a BABY! That makes me want to vomit.
guest9969 is offline  
#21 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:37 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: raising the revolution
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
poop, I thought he was four....

It said something like "reason with my four year old" I thought

Oh well, I tried.
captain crunchy is offline  
#22 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:42 AM
 
bethwl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 1,175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
The older child is 4.

But what gets me is that she was spanked as a child, too. It must not have affected her the way getting hit did me as a child. It may have made me stop doing whatever is was that I wasn't supposed to do, but it just made me seethe, too. How healthy.
bethwl is offline  
#23 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:42 AM
 
guest9969's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 479
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captain crunchy
poop, I thought he was four....

It said something like "reason with my four year old" I thought

Oh well, I tried.
I think that is Liam, her older child, whom she appears to spank as well. I think your example is quite good.
guest9969 is offline  
#24 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:54 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: raising the revolution
Posts: 4,913
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ah, I wish, but probably not. I just didn't want to be one of those "you bleeping bleep! You are a child abusing, controlling bleep who is damaging her kids!"....

Though it was tempting...

Thanks though for your kind words all...
captain crunchy is offline  
#25 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 12:55 AM
 
MyLittleWonders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Always learning something new.
Posts: 8,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Does she really believe a 1 year old can have a conversation like this:

Quote:
That's what he does, he looks straight at us whenever he does something bad.

"What are YOU gonna do about this, woman?" he says to me with his fat-faced, snowman eyes.
in his head? I mean really ... a 1 year old? Oh man ... makes me sick to think of her complete ignorance towards children (and babies).

 Me + dh = heartbeat.gif ds (7/01), ds (11/03), ds (6/06)
and dd born 11/21/10 - our T21 SuperBaby ribbluyel.gif heartbeat.gif
MyLittleWonders is offline  
#26 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 01:53 AM
 
shanagirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I just read the first few paragraphs to dd (8) and she said, "I hope he never finds out that his mom said that he has a fat face and snowman eyes. And it's really mean to hit your kid."
shanagirl is offline  
#27 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 03:02 AM
 
shanagirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 524
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Ok -- so after dd said that we talked about spanking and she who is enamored with our new computer said, "Could I send an email to that lady?" So here is what she sent, no coaching from me other than asking, 'why' to her statements.

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.



Ok-- I'm sure this isn't going to make a big impact on Dawn, but as part of my belief in not hitting my child, the column provided a nice opportunity to talk about my child about it. So it was really interesting to see the expression on her face as she was listening to the column. When I read, "fat faced snowman eyes," she kind of flinched and raised her eyebrows and said, "She is his mom saying that?"
shanagirl is offline  
#28 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 03:35 AM
 
julesmom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Awesome letter Capt. Crunchy!

And WOW! shanagirl...I think if anything will get thru to that woman, it will be the very true, very honest words of your compassionate dd.
What a proud mama you must be .
julesmom is offline  
#29 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 08:58 AM
 
Girl Named Sandoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: On the road to Mandalay...
Posts: 1,576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanagirl

Dear Mrs. Logues-

I am 8. I hope your kid never finds out that you called him a name or that he was like a dog. It's also mean to hit your kid. You should never hit a one year old. They don't know they're being bad. When he's bad you can teach him to do something else. When you hurt them it feels like you don't like them.
Your daughter is so sweet and wise.

I knew I shouldn't have opened the article link.
Girl Named Sandoz is offline  
#30 of 126 Old 01-07-2006, 11:21 AM
 
quelindo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: On the road to find out
Posts: 3,129
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jadzia
I just checked out her blog. Ewan, the one who got his first spanking, is ONE YEAR OLD.
And she expected a one-year old not to play with the Xmas tree lights? To sit quietly like a little doll instead of being a normal toddler? What is wrong with her?

Formerly New Mama to Henry, born August 2005 and Silas, born November 2010.
quelindo is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Drag and Drop File Upload
Drag files here to attach!
Upload Progress: 0
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Mothering Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off