Logical Consquences - GD? or NOT GD? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 02:57 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dragonfly
Now I'm confused. The way I read it, the child was allowed the opportunity to eat between 6 and 7 (so it's probably safe to assume that he hadn't eaten immediately before then) then, when he refused to eat, was not allowed access to any other food (even food he might get for himself) for the rest of the night until breakfast. How is that different than what Pat is saying? (And I'm not trying to be snarky. I truly want to understand how the situation is being misrepresented.)
It was my understanding that pat's 15-20 hours of being deined access to food was counting from lunch or an afternoon snack until breakfast. (as these were the times she mentioned)
WHich was not the case.
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#122 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 02:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TripMom
Dragonfly - please read my post - he wasn't "late" for the meal?? That is a complete mischaracterization of the post.

My post was brief - here is some more info: Ds is 3. Its not like he is off on his own and not keeping track of his appointments on his blackberry. He comes to the table when the family eats - at a reasonable time for dinner - and is given a reasonably long time to eat -- and is served foods he likes. DS began "not eating" at meal time - then declaring himself hungry as I am cleaning up. I re-offer the food, he doesn't eat it, then declares he is hungry as I am cleaning up again. This little game was fun for DS - because he got to push bath and bedtime back farther and father. At one point, he even had his dad feeding him dinner after bath at 9:30 at night. This is not because he wasn't or was hungry - this is all in an effort to delay bedtime.

NC was a wonderful solution to this power struggle - which is a common problem with 3 yos. We set a clear time for the meal. We gave him a long time to eat. And gave him warnings that dinner was "almost over", etc. And if he didn't eat - NC was next time to eat was at the next meal - breakfast. No shaming. No I told you so. No "now your gonna be sorry". Just - "DS, I'm so sorry you didn't eat dinner. Should I make your favorites for breakfast?" Broke the power struggle/control cycle pretty quick.

You don't think PD is "at all" GD? That seems like an exaggeration. From what I've read and seen on these boards - I think the 2 are very close, if not identical?
This is your follow up post, in it's entirety. You again state that you told your child, who was asking for food, that he needed to wait until morning.

What part am I missing here?

This is really frustrating!
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#123 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:00 PM
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I didn't say you starved your child either!! My goodness, starvation is a really strong word, one I did not attribute to you.....ALL I am suggesting is that allowing the "natural" consequence of being hungry instead of offering alternatives (which you wouldn't have to cook -- yogurt, veggie sticks, fruit, cheese cubes, whatever) is not my definition of what is gentle. That is just me. I wouldn't withhold food from my child who claimed to be hungry...even if she just ate 10 minutes ago.. it is her stomach, she knows when she is hungry or not...

I mean, how would I feel if I picked at dinner (or skipped it) and then went into the fridge an hour later looking for something and my hubby said to me "breakfast is the next meal sweetie, I am going to have to ask you to shut the fridge"...woah, I would go mental.
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#124 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TripMom
That's right. You excerpted 1 paragraph - and skillfully left other paragraphs??
1 paragraph, 1 night of hunger
IMO, it is not GD, nor nice for a child to feel hunger in order to get them to eat a meal with the family or to eat the meal that is prepared by it's parent(s).
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#125 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy
You said he goes without food until the next day if he doesn't eat dinner at the appointed time....YOU said that!!! Cmon, we aren't saying you do what you quoted above....all I am wondering is if he is provided food before bed if he is hungry or in the middle of the night if he wakes up hungry or if you say (however gently) "sorry sweetheart, you didn't eat dinner"...which is what YOU SAID you would say (or similar, I think it was *breakfast is the next meal*)....

That is all I am asking geez....
CC - Oh, well that's an honest mistake CC. I see - let me explain. DS often requests food - and he is always accomodated upon such requests. Often, while I'm tucking him in, he requests ice cream. So I go get him a bowl. Sometimes I don't have it in the freezer - so I load him up in his pajamas and we go to the grocery store to buy it - sometimes I have to leave my sleeping triplets at home alone in their cribs to do this - but I wouldn't want to withhold from DS and be accused of starving him here on MDC. But sometimes they are out of the flavor he wants, so we drive to the grocery store in the next county. Once, when we got to our neighborhood store, and they were out of the flavor he had politely requested, he then refused to get in his car seat. So we sat on the curb for 2 hours until he was ready to get in his car seat. Luckily, at that point he was no longer experiencing hunger for ice cream . . . and requested that we return home .. . so that time, it worked out. But to answer your question . . . of course, every request for food is responded to.

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#126 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy
I didn't say you starved your child either!! My goodness, starvation is a really strong word, one I did not attribute to you.....ALL I am suggesting is that allowing the "natural" consequence of being hungry instead of offering alternatives (which you wouldn't have to cook -- yogurt, veggie sticks, fruit, cheese cubes, whatever) is not my definition of what is gentle. That is just me. I wouldn't withhold food from my child who claimed to be hungry...even if she just ate 10 minutes ago.. it is her stomach, she knows when she is hungry or not...

I mean, how would I feel if I picked at dinner (or skipped it) and then went into the fridge an hour later looking for something and my hubby said to me "breakfast is the next meal sweetie, I am going to have to ask you to shut the fridge"...woah, I would go mental.
Again . . .we are skipping over the part where the child was repeatedly offered food??

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#127 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:08 PM
 
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Am I the only one who thinks that if a child is not hungry at 7 , then he is likely not particularly hungry at 7:30 or 8 before he goes to bed.
We are talking about 1/2 to an hour and a half (depending on the child's bedtime) without a snack after a child has claimed to be not hungry.
Not (as some have stated) 15-20 hours of food being "withheld" .
Tripmom, I've got your back!
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#128 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom
This is your follow up post, in it's entirety. You again state that you told your child, who was asking for food, that he needed to wait until morning.

What part am I missing here?

This is really frustrating!
The part you don't seem to like to bring up -- is the part where he was repeatedly offered the food - and didn't eat? And only asked for more, when I began to clean up? The part where that cycle is repeated - until mother halts the game?

If you are suggesting that I should have repeated that obvious power-struggle cycle on into dawn - you should read a few of the books on the GD topic about how to exit power struggles with pre-schoolers.

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#129 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:10 PM
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CC - Oh, well that's an honest mistake CC. I see - let me explain. DS often requests food - and he is always accomodated upon such requests. Often, while I'm tucking him in, he requests ice cream. So I go get him a bowl. Sometimes I don't have it in the freezer - so I load him up in his pajamas and we go to the grocery store to buy it - sometimes I have to leave my sleeping triplets at home alone in their cribs to do this - but I wouldn't want to withhold from DS and be accused of starving him here on MDC. But sometimes they are out of the flavor he wants, so we drive to the grocery store in the next county. Once, when we got to our neighborhood store, and they were out of the flavor he had politely requested, he then refused to get in his car seat. So we sat on the curb for 2 hours until he was ready to get in his car seat. Luckily, at that point he was no longer experiencing hunger for ice cream . . . and requested that we return home .. . so that time, it worked out. But to answer your question . . . of course, every request for food is responded to.
No need for snarky sarcasm...

If your method of teaching your child to eat at mealtimes is to "allow" (your words, not mine) him to go hungry all night... cool... but don't get offended when people disagree. I am one of those people.
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#130 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TripMom
Again . . .we are skipping over the part where the child was repeatedly offered food??
Tripmom,
Those of us who can understand already do.
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#131 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:11 PM
 
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But she says that the child had been requesting and taking meals at 9:30 before they implemented this system. THye just didn't think it was hunger; that it was "game-playing" and stalling tactics.

I would surmise that he was hungry.

But, even so, if someone tells me they are hungry, I'm gonna get them food.
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#132 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by johub
Am I the only one who thinks that if a child is not hungry at 7 , then he is likely not particularly hungry at 7:30 or 8 before he goes to bed.
We are talking about 1/2 to an hour and a half (depending on the child's bedtime) without a snack after a child has claimed to be not hungry.
Not (as some have stated) 15-20 hours of food being "withheld" .
Tripmom, I've got your back!
Johub -

I am so at a loss. This forum should be a place for people to learn and discuss -- actual, real GD principles? I mean its one thing to advocate for extreme principles that likely fall fairly far to the left of GD (even considering GD as a "spectrum") -- it is quite another to do what is being done to me on this board.

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#133 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by johub
Am I the only one who thinks that if a child is not hungry at 7 , then he is likely not particularly hungry at 7:30 or 8 before he goes to bed.
We are talking about 1/2 to an hour and a half (depending on the child's bedtime) without a snack after a child has claimed to be not hungry.
Not (as some have stated) 15-20 hours of food being "withheld" .
Tripmom, I've got your back!
No, Tripmom agrees with you. I am sorry, but as a n adult, I may not feel hungry at 7 pm, but by 7:30pm I can be quite hungry.
We are talking about a 3 yo baby! Their stomach is the size of their fist! Even in the pediatric manual book thing, it says they need 5-6 small meals a day.

Also, as the adult who grocery shops, I never buy junk food, so there are always healthy, nutritious food for my children to choose from.
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#134 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TripMom
Johub -

I am so at a loss. This forum should be a place for people to learn and discuss -- actual, real GD principles? I mean its one thing to advocate for extreme principles that likely fall fairly far to the left of GD (even considering GD as a "spectrum") -- it is quite another to do what is being done to me on this board.
I couldnt agree more, which is why I am sticking around. I have been in your exact position on a number of topics as well.
"Actual, Real" GD principles are starting to be determined by the most vocal posters I'm afraid.

We have a whole new thread going on this subject as we speak.
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#135 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:21 PM
 
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TripMom, what exactly is being done to you?

People are disagreeing with what you are saying and asking you repeatedly to better understand your position. Rather than explain, you're being sarcastic and rude.
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#136 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by TripMom
Johub -

I am so at a loss. This forum should be a place for people to learn and discuss -- actual, real GD principles? I mean its one thing to advocate for extreme principles that likely fall fairly far to the left of GD (even considering GD as a "spectrum") -- it is quite another to do what is being done to me on this board.
Wow! People disagree with you. That is it. No one has done anything to you.
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Originally Posted by johub
I couldnt agree more, which is why I am sticking around. I have been in your exact position on a number of topics as well.
"Actual, Real" GD principles are starting to be determined by the most vocal posters I'm afraid.

We have a whole new thread going on this subject as we speak.
Whatever.

No one is "determining" anything. She asked if ppl thought what she was doing was GD. People are answering.

If being vocal about honoring kids' requests for food and not sending them to bed hungry on the GD forum of MDC makes me an extremist, than I probably am in the wrong place.
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#138 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:26 PM
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If being vocal about honoring kids' requests for food and not sending them to bed hungry on the GD forum of MDC makes me an extremist, than I probably am in the wrong place
I agree.
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#139 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by johub
I couldnt agree more, which is why I am sticking around. I have been in your exact position on a number of topics as well.
"Actual, Real" GD principles are starting to be determined by the most vocal posters I'm afraid.

We have a whole new thread going on this subject as we speak.
Yeah - I just emailed a moderator. If this is a forum for more extreme left approaches to discipline - its not for me - and I shouldn't waste my/or anyone elses time here. But if the board really is suppose to be a GD discussion board - I wish the mods would post a sticky and make some rules. I mean people come here wanting to learn/discuss this topic - fights about differing philosophies altogether is not helpful.

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Originally Posted by monkey's mom
TripMom, what exactly is being done to you?

People are disagreeing with what you are saying and asking you repeatedly to better understand your position. Rather than explain, you're being sarcastic and rude.


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#141 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom
No one is "determining" anything. She asked if ppl thought what she was doing was GD. People are answering.
No, I didn't "ask if ppl thought what I was doing was GD". I posted an NC scenario as an example of NC -- and people chose to jump on it and mischaracterize it as you and others have done. Never did I "ask" if it was GD - I know darn well it is.

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#142 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by TripMom
Yeah - I just emailed a moderator. If this is a forum for more extreme left approaches to discipline - its not for me - and I shouldn't waste my/or anyone elses time here. But if the board really is suppose to be a GD discussion board - I wish the mods would post a sticky and make some rules. I mean people come here wanting to learn/discuss this topic - fights about differing philosophies altogether is not helpful.
I have been thinking the same thing myself.
If you find a place PM me.
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#143 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:35 PM
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Extreme left approaches to discipline????????

Giving food to a child who is expressing desire and/or hunger for food is extreme???

Woah, where am I?
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#144 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy
Extreme left approaches to discipline????????

Giving food to a child who is expressing desire and/or hunger for food is extreme???

Woah, where am I?
I don't know where you are CC. I honestly don't. Because, in my scenario - the child was repeatedly offered food. If you honestly feel that the cycle I described should have been repeated ad infinitum . . . I am sorry, but that approach is somewhere left of most GD philosophy. And if this board is meant to discuss those approaches . . . please post a sticky to that effect so it is clear to all what the philosophy is here.

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Originally Posted by TripMom
No, I didn't "ask if ppl thought what I was doing was GD". I posted an NC scenario as an example of NC -- and people chose to jump on it and mischaracterize it as you and others have done. Never did I "ask" if it was GD - I know darn well it is.
The title of the thread is: "Are logical consequences GD or not?" You brought up a scenario you said is right out of Positive Discipline and said that it occurred at your home and that you thought it was GD.

Some people agreed with you and you seem to be welcoming their comments and support.

Other people have not agreed with you and you are being sarcastic and saying that we are missing something, but not pointing to where that something is.

I feel entirely lost in all of this and am trying to understand your position.

Johub, please show me where I've been sarcastic or rude and I will apologize immediately. I am very frustrated right now, so perhaps I'm not doing a good job of communicating. I have STRONGLY disagreed with TripMom's posts, and I stand by that. But, that's not the same thing as being rude.
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#146 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TripMom
And if this board is meant to discuss those approaches . . . please post a sticky to that effect so it is clear to all what the philosophy is here.
There are three sticky's, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
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#147 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by monkey's mom
Other people have not agreed with you and you are being sarcastic and saying that we are missing something, but not pointing to where that something is.
Oh my goodnes - there must be at least 5 posts "pointing out" that the child was repeatedly offered food?

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Originally Posted by monkey's mom
Johub, please show me where I've been sarcastic or rude and I will apologize immediately. I am very frustrated right now, so perhaps I'm not doing a good job of communicating. I have STRONGLY disagreed with TripMom's posts, and I stand by that. But, that's not the same thing as being rude.
Monkey, I am not going to go through your threads to locate instances of you being rude.
Regardless the way Tripmom is being treated on this thread is abysmal and there have been almost countless instances of rude and inflammatory remarks made at HER expense.
And then you turn around and call her rude and sarcastic.
Regardless of who was being rude to Tripmom, I am not accusing you. ONly showing utter shock and disbelief that the horrible tone of this thread is being attributed to its victim.
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#149 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by captain crunchy
Extreme left approaches to discipline????????

Giving food to a child who is expressing desire and/or hunger for food is extreme???

Woah, where am I?
Sounds like you are in the same place I am. Are you hungry? I'm getting ready to make stroganoff,string beans with a garlic and butter sauce, and mandarin oranges and blueberries.
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#150 of 243 Old 01-11-2006, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MamaInTheBoonies
There are three sticky's, so I have no idea what you are talking about.
You are right . . . From the Sticky about "The Long Awaited GD Book List" - The scenario I posted about - is taken as an example of NC from this book - which appears on the GD book list.

Positive Discipline and Positive Discipline A to Z.
by Jane Nelsen, PhD

This is suppose to be a GD board? My scenario is straight from this book. Mild criticism of it would be one thing - a "spectrum" debate, as I've seen here before is tolerable. But calling the approach a "criminal offense" . . . is apalling. How are we suppose to discuss GD when we have posters taking core GD methods . . . and calling it child abuse?

So if Jane Nelsen's writings on Positive Discipline are NOT considered GD here - MODS, PLEASE SO STATE IN THE STICKY AND I WiLL GLADLY LEAVE.

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