at the risk of starting a fire here, do you think that spanking EVER works? - Page 3 - Mothering Forums

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Old 01-14-2006, 11:54 PM
 
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Dharmamam,

Boy your good! I don't think I have anything to add to the discussion. DM said it well and I'll reiterate that I don't blame the OP; get past the incident and rehearse a plan in your for what you will do next time.

Third generation WOHM. I work by choice.
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Old 01-14-2006, 11:54 PM
 
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This looks like a debate of the merits of spanking, so I'm guessing the thread won't make it much farther, but I just want to say...if you think of spanking/punishment as as option, other creative ways of responding just won't come forward in those moments of stress.

Hitting people, especially people smaller than you, is always wrong.

And b/f anyone tells me I don't know what I'm talking about I have a 70 lb 5 year old who is almost as strong as me with sensory issues and an allergy to wheat that makes her act in aggressive ways toward me (and only me and occasionally dp).

Yeah, it's a drag, but I know when she's acting that way she's hurting. I don't care one little bit if she'd act differently if I hit her. I don't care if it would never damage our relationship. I don't hit because hitting is wrong and I don't want my future grandchildren hit.

With that option out of the way, there are an infinite number of other responses available to me, some constructive and some not as constructive. But *all* better than hitting someone.
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Old 01-14-2006, 11:57 PM
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dharmamama ,

I'm a fairly analytical and conceptually driven person. It is not rare for me to try to figure out what I should be doing in the heat of a very stressful moment, and sometimes doing this leads me to wonder how mothers who I admire would respond to the situation. The information that I've recently been thinking about tends to surface when I'm in decision-making mode. If I've been thinking a lot about redirection, that's what comes to mind first; if I've been thinking about heaping love on Simon when he's "acting out", that tends to come first. I think that hearing about I spanked, you spanked, not much harm, not much foul, it worked, and yada yada raises that to a similar level of consciousness -- making it more apt to be there when someone is desperately searching and trying to figure out how to respond to a particularly challenging situation. Now granted, not everyone functions in a similar way, but I would venture to guess that there are plenty of other people who do operate similarly to how I do.

Spanking is private around here (I'm in Ontario, Canada) -- thank goodness for that!!! It is typically not on my mind. I have not thought of it as effective, and do not think of it as such. I don't see it as curbing undesired behaviours. I see it as the look in the child's face who has been hit by her mother. I see it as the humiliating experience that I was put through, which fit with "good" parenting practices of the day, right down to the horrendous "this hurts me more than it hurts you" speech (which itself makes me completely uncomfortable to recall, and led to intense feelings of disgust -- I recall my own inner dialogue at the time (though not the precise words): That is such total b.s.; if it's so problematic to you, then don't do it).

Anyway... what this thread offers in comparison to my usual take on hitting children is the view that it works, that it was a simple little act, carried out twice, that led to the desired result. It is not going to sway my mind in the slightest, but I am not so sure that this is the same with other readers. Rather, I think it very likely that a reader could leave this thread more committed to spanking, or less opposed to it, than before having read it. Lest I be directed to the anti-spanking sentiments: Not everyone reads every word.

There are varying degrees of GD moms here (as well as those who are not GD). That is not a newsflash. It should not be a newsflash that some experiment with spanking -- and deliberately. This is a huge community. Even though this community as a whole is opposed to spanking, there are people here who have used it, and those who continue to use it as a method of disciplining their children. Certainly few are apt to admit to this here, but this doesn't mean that these people are not here. I would not be surprised if the sentiments in this thread are taken as incentive to spank (wittingly or not), nor would I be surprised if this thread has already resulted in a spanking.

I'm cringing at the word "spank." I think I'll stop using it.
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Old 01-15-2006, 12:34 AM
 
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I guess it's clear, Dal, that there are differences of opinion on whether this thread is helpful. To you, it's not. To some of us, it is. Maybe, instead of speculating on what may, might, or could happen when some unspecified mom reads this thread, we could just accept the fact that some of us find it helpful in dealing with/resisting the urge to strike.

Namaste!
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Old 01-15-2006, 12:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chfriend
Hitting people, especially people smaller than you, is always wrong.
I've only seen one person on this thread say otherwise.
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Old 01-15-2006, 12:37 AM
 
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Old 01-15-2006, 12:55 AM
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Dharmamama, so this thread is fine b/c some moms find it helpful, even if there are good reasons to think that others may take it as incentive to hit their children? I'd say that if there is a possibility of the latter, this thread is a dangerous one that does not fit with MDC standards.
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Old 01-15-2006, 01:23 AM
 
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Dal, so this thread is bad b/c some moms may take it as incentive to hit their children, even if there are good reasons to think that others may find it helpful?

You are speculating about what *might* happen. I am stating factually what *is* happening. This thread *is* helping people.

What if a mom came to the GD forum and read all the vents and rants of frustrated moms and said to herself, "Gee, this GD stuff is for the birds, look at all these moms whose kids are ill-behaved! I'll keep my kids in line with a good spanking!" Should people then not vent and rant because of what someone might take from that thread? I don't think we can be responsible for what others *might* take from our threads. We can't control those hypotheticals.

Dal, your position seems like the abstinence approach to sex ed: If we just don't talk about it, if we just say "Don't do it," people won't do it.

Namaste!
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Old 01-15-2006, 01:32 AM
 
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As a reminder, this forum's intent is "to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children" not to debate spanking. Please PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.


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Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara

Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
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Old 01-15-2006, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
Dal, so this thread is bad b/c some moms may take it as incentive to hit their children, even if there are good reasons to think that others may find it helpful?
YES! There are less dangerous ways to discuss the frustrations that lead parents to hit their children, and how to deal with them, than to do so under the guise of a discussion about whether hitting children is an effective means of controlling them. Or is it the other way around? Why go to a thread about whether hitting children works when looking for helpful advice? That sounds like something one might do on a mainstream board in which hitting children into submission is taken as a real option. Hitting children is not an option here, rather it's taken as a pretty darn nasty thing to do, so why on earth engage in a discussion about whether it's effective? Especially one that has so much to say to someone who is looking for a reason to hit her child (not intentionally -- I'm thinking more of someone who is really frustrated and who may be vulnerable to the idea that hitting might work to solve their problem).

I see parts of this thread as setting up pros and cons of hitting children. Much that has been said presents hitting children as a live option.

To respond to an earlier point... hitting children can be normalized within this community if it comes to be seen as something that frequently happens when moms get pushed to the limits. Perhaps this is already the case here. Given how many "I spanked" threads that come up, I do see this as a threat. Expectations shape behaviour. If one gathers from these frequent threats that, hey, I'm human too, so when I'm pushed to the limits I'll probably end up spanking too, that makes it that much more likely to happen. Consider, e.g., the typical response I've seen to someone's suggestion that she will never hit her child. It's basically a variant of the "OOOH!!! You just wait and see!!!" "Just wait until YOU have two children and the oldest hits the youngest!!! We'll see how well you do in that situation." "Ohhh.... you clearly don't have a child like my Johnny!!!"

I did not say that it is not o.k. to talk about hitting children. I do however think that MDC starts from the position that this is WRONG and that MDC does not want to endorse hitting children.

To borrow your sex-ed analogy. I see this as comparable to including content that claims to be about (and perhaps takes itself as) a legit discussion of the evils of child pornography, but that contains content that many readers take as erotic representations of children. E.g., imagine a thread with the title "is it ever o.k. to present children engaged in erotic acts?" This is followed by a conversation that -- among other things -- gets into the horrors of child pornography and how to steer clear from it. Many posters talk about being turned on by the child porn. Some are angry with the discussion, saying that some of the content, and the set up of the discussion, supports child porn. Clearly there is a problem in such a situation, right? Funny (well... not really) that this isn't so readily apparent when it comes to hitting children. I take that as a further sign that this behaviour has been normalized.
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Old 01-15-2006, 03:03 AM
 
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I have read through this thread and struggled with hearing about *intentionally* hitting a child to alter his behavior, as punishment, as shock value (?). I agree that there seem to be a number of posts which agree that in order to stop an undesirable behavior in the moment, that hitting someone would be effective. This seems erroneous to me. And against the posting guidelines of this site, and especially the GD forum.

I actually understand quite well the emotional overload that a parent could feel with being physically impacted by their child. Below is a recent PM of mine about this issue. However, what I do know is that the same 'out of control' feeling that I have experienced is *exactly* what my child is experiencing. And I wouldn't want someone to hit me when I feel my most vulnerable and least emotionally stable. Especially if someone I loved, hit me in my moment of need for comfort and communication of loving support, hit me after threatening to do so. I don't believe that I would or could feel the same level of trust and unconditional support that I had before hand; nor able to feel more emotionally abled to think with my head, rather than from the new confusion of fear.

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Between you and me and the lampost, it does get harder when they turn about age 2, 3, 4. (I don't yet know what is in store for me in his teens ) I knew I would never hit our son, but I tell you, I have emotionally (out of control angry) come this close to it. Wanting to just stop the behavior immediately. I have worked really, really hard to learn to temper that hot button.

Well, I have more than one hot button unfortunately. My main one is being held against my will. And intellectually, I know that he is just a small child, and my own at that. But there is something visceral that takes over my emotions when I feel trapped. Like when I am cutting chicken up and my hands are dirty and occupied and our son will come up and grab my legs. I can not move. I feel imprisoned. That strong of an emotion! I know it is all the childhood baggage, and it really wasn't much of an issue until he was older. But, there is something about when you feel that you *have to* to do something that needs to happen NOW!!; and the child refuses to participate, it is hard to get to that healthy emotional place of 'what does *HE* need?', from the deep emotion of "I NEED xyz!!!". Again, my childhood *need* (baggage) feels unheard and I had to learn to move past the emotion to some cognitive awareness that this isn't the past. It is now.

I have found that choosing to live without time constraints or expectations (as much as possible) helps more than anything else. And stepping back to B....R.....E....A....T...H....

Similarly, when there is some physical impact, that is totally developmentally appropriate: pinching, hitting, kicking, striking out in anger physically, and most recently 'I am going to hit you'. Wow. My self-protective fight or flight emotion is this close to the surface, and I am 43! No way at 21, 25, 30 years old, could I have had the self-awareness and self-control that this requires not to act on.

I am sure that oour son too will have 'things to heal from'. I become aware of more things that I could model more effectively, more healthfully everyday. We are all on a journey in progress. Interesting, the recipe of non-coercion parenting and coercive upbringing is the hardest road to choose, in many ways. Hardest from an 'expect myself to change and grow'; but not hardest from an 'expect others to change' perspective.

The same degree of certainty that you have that you would NOT TOLERATE being hit by anyone, not once, is the same visceral reaction that occurs from being hit by our son. The same, NO!. It is beyond the rational. It is scary to experience. I hope that your child never pushes your hottest buttons, but they do. Having the fortitude and certainty that you will not hit, no matter what, is not a one time decision. It is tested in the heat of the emotional overload. And it is hard. But, new communication tools and a new paradigm of focusing on *underlying needs* helps me to find the rational part of my being. Practicing this consideration and belief in their inherent innocence helps. But, you get a lot more practice starting at age 18-36 months.
We have a son who has sensory seeking behaviors, and has food intolerances to multiple ingredients which temporarilly (chemically/systemically) obstruct his ability to consider other people's needs and respect other's personal body space boundaries. Dairy cause him to become aggressive. The onset is about one hour after consumption, and lasts for 1-6 hours, depending on quantity consumed. Soy makes him hyper, wild and bouncing off the walls for hours. Same with artificial colors red and yellow. Wheat makes him restless and disturbs his sleep, such that we end up with night wakings, early wakings, difficulty settling down for the night and restless legs while sleeping which seem to be a factor in the wakings. Daytime consumption of wheat, in large portions causes increased vocalizations of loud sounds and disturbances to others in the home with limited ability of self-control. I list these all out specifically in order to share the dietary elements that could be physically altering a child's behaviors. We obviously attempt to avoid these food ingredients according to the Feingold Diet. We also attempt to avoid salicylate loading. Many foods are high in salicylates and when our son consumes large quantities of strawberries, peaches, or blueberries, or OJ, he again is more hyper and has less self-awareness and less self-control.

DS knows these food issues and voluntarily avoids them about 95% of the time. Other times, life is interesting. He is 4.5 y/o. And very strong. What we have found which helps, in addition to food awareness, is to proactively meet his sensory seeking needs. We have a mattress on the floor of his room and an old couch. He jumps and jumps and jumps on both, throughout the day when he has excess energy. We purchased a trampoline; and we initiate a lot of outdoor large motor movement activities, including kicking, throwing, digging and raking (in sand and dirt) and riding his bike for long periods of time and racing up and down the driveway. These activities are essential to his physical and emotional well being. And mine too. When he gets angry, he is a physical child. When he is sleeping, eating and playing, he is a physical child. Helping him to be aware of what his body needs and when he feels healthy and happy and when he doesn't is a major focus of my parenting and nurturing. We discuss 'listening to your body', and 'watching your body's cues' of clenched fists, raised voice, too much energy, bumping into things, getting into people's space, etc. and discuss how protein helps to moderate our blood sugar, how caffeine amps us up and how sugary foods only 'feel good' for a short while. (Oh, I forgot, we avoid high fructose corn syrup too for the same hyped up reasons.)

So, my point is that there are many more GD ways to address the underlying needs. Additionally, we have used Rescue Remedy and Cherry Plum. Both are Bach flower remedies for helping with upsets or 'feeling out of control'. My main concern is that our son doesn't 'feel right' when he doesn't 'act right', as Dr. Sears says. So, my job is to help to find what is obstructing him from feeling his best, not add to his burdens with threats, fear and intimidation.

The tools of reflective listening which are discussed in How to Talk so Kids will Listen and How to Listen so Kids will Talk helped me to learn more effective communication skills of validation and giving what is desired in fantasy, and seeking to understand the underlying needs, and always assuming *good* intent, even when actions or behaviors are out of control. These skills have helped me to parent my "inner child" who is reacting to being hit too. I have learned why I feel so angry about what I experience as an assault, when my child is flailing for help. I also found the book "Raising Your Spirited Child" and "Kids, Parents and Power Struggles" to be quite informative and transformative to more cooperative communciations in our family.

I hope my post adds some new GD tools to your toolbox. When we default to a quick fix, we stop seeking a real solution to the real problem. Hitting a child for being out of self-control, doesn't eliminate the underlying need. So, the need resurfaces, and resurfaces, and resurfaces, until a more effective solution is found. Hitting the child doesn't solve anything; but it creates many more problems of an adversarial relationship.

In the heat of the moment, I agree with what Maya44 said to do. And with whoever said that using peaceful methods of stepping away to protect yourself is more effective modelling of anger management than hitting would be.

Pat

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Old 01-15-2006, 10:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dal
To borrow your sex-ed analogy
Telling kids that sex before marriage is a sin and just DON'T DO IT because nothing good will come of it doesn't stop teenage sex. Study after study proves this. Inevitably, some kids have sex anyway, and then they discover what the adults have tried to hide from them: sex feels good, sex can deepen a relationship, sex does not always lead to spontaneous combustion. What are we going to do now that kids have this knowledge? We can't go back to just, "It's wrong, it's bad, don't do it."

Telling kids that using drugs is wrong and JUST SAY NO and that if you use drugs your body will fall apart and you'll become a junkie in a nanosecond doesn't work (witness the widely recognized failure of DARE programs). Inevitably some kids will try drugs, and then they discover what adults have tried to hide from them: drugs are fun, and you can actually use drugs without becoming an emaciated addict (this from personal experience as a teenager). What are we going to do now that kids have this knowledge? We can't go back to just, "It's wrong, it's bad, don't do it."

We can't live in fear that if people find out that spanking "works" in the short-term that they'll do it. People have to examine the issue in ALL its facets before they can actually CHOOSE not to spank rather than merely being cowed into not doing it. I think that people have to have ALL the knowledge before they can truly make a choice.

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Old 01-15-2006, 02:17 PM
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For the most part, I don't disagree with anything that you've said, Dharmamama. But I still feel that this discussion is dangerous. You've returned to your analogy without considering how I've applied it to show you the problem that I'm seeing here. To use my use of your analogy again... I'm not saying "Don't talk about child porn... ever" I'm saying "It's fine to talk about child porn, but keep material that eroticizes children out of the picture."

From what you say it sounds like you think that MDC should allow conversations from all angles on the issue -- AS IF HITTING CHILDREN IS AN OPTION. This is not their stance, and for good reason. This is not a place for advocating hitting. MDC has risen above the place in which this is a live option. I think that is a very good thing, just as it is good to rise above the place in which it is not problematic to present children as sexual objects. I don't care to hear defenses of child porn and don't care to hear defenses of hitting children. There are enough of the latter out there already and they do lead to further incidents of hitting. MDC does not need to contribute to that in any which way. On the contrary, MDC should (and usually does) work towards finding better options. This can include conversations about what to do with feelings of rage. I'm advocating nothing more than the already mandated limitation against saying things here that support hitting children.
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Old 01-15-2006, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dharmamama
We can't live in fear that if people find out that spanking "works" in the short-term that they'll do it. People have to examine the issue in ALL its facets before they can actually CHOOSE not to spank rather than merely being cowed into not doing it. I think that people have to have ALL the knowledge before they can truly make a choice.

Namaste!
Maybe it is the Buddhism talking, but I agree.

I thought this thread was a good example of what happens when you think dangerous thoughts ("Spanking works. Ack") and bring them to the discussion table. No, I don't think MDC should host debates on the merits of spanking, but to have a non-spanking mama come to other non-spanking mamas on a forum that is anti-spanking for advice when she had an alarming thought - I think its great.

The message has been loud and clear that no, spanking doesn't work in any profound, desirable way, and hey lets brainstorm about better ways.

What if the OP, instead of having the confidence/trust/audacity to write her post, had instead allowed the seeds of doubt to blossom quietly. "Maybe those GD people aren't really correct. Or maybe they are right about my kind of kid. Perhaps GD isn't the right approach for someone in my position." And then chose to continue physical punishment?

I like how she handled it.
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Old 01-15-2006, 03:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dal
AS IF HITTING CHILDREN IS AN OPTION.
I don't think that MDC is a place where hitting is not an option. I think it is a place where it is acknowledged that the option of hitting is not supported.

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Old 01-15-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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I've read through the thread and hope it's ok to jump in so late My girls are 6 and 8 and I can't tell you how many times when they were young I would hear "just wait and see, 'everyone' spanks". Well, I would just smile and nod and as it turns out, I have never spanked. I'm not saying this to say I'm "GDer than thou" or whatever it is that people say but to say that I found the secret for me. Over the years, my buttons have been pushed but what I learned was that *no one* controls my emotions but me. Wow, was that revolutionary. I could control my reactions to ANY situation. I read about this in Thich Nhat Hahn "Peace in Every Step" and in "Happiness is Choice" by Barry Kaufman. I had my doubts but when I started to practice it REALLY worked. It worked when people were being rude at a store or when my dds were pushing buttons. When I'm in control of my emotions we are all in a better position to solve problems. I have talked to my dds about this too, they understand that we ALWAYS have the choice of how we react.

The focus in our family is to live joyfully, this practice has helped so much in that pursuit.
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Old 01-15-2006, 03:34 PM
 
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I am not disagreeing with either of you.

If a mama comes here and says "I hit my child, I feel horrible", there are two basic reactions she might receive: 'Hitting is not ok, hitting is wrong, there are better alternatives, I am going to punish (shame) you for hitting'; or 'Wow, what is going on? You sound overwhelmed, what can be done to get to a better place and tell me how I can help?' The first may (or may not) stop the behavior in the moment (or the future); the second addresses the underlying needs in an atmosphere of trust and support.

The reason hitting doesn't work is because the first reaction 'Kicking is not ok, kicking is wrong, there are better alternatives, I am going to punish ("spank") you for kicking' doesn't address the underlying needs. INSTEAD, 'Wow, what is going on? you are so angry you want to kick, what can you do to get to a better place and how can I help you?' will help to resolve the need to act out physically, in an atmosphere of trust and support.

However, additionally, I do believe that every individual has the final say of what is or is not "ok" or "wrong" for someone to do to their body: both adult and child. So, I am comfortable communicating that "it is not ok (or it is wrong) to kick me". But some children are not comfortable (read "allowed") to communicate that "it is not ok (or it is wrong) to hit (read "spank") me".

So, yes. Hitting another person is not ok (with the person at the end of the hand/paddle). Therefore, it is not an option, except in consensual relationships such as boxing, football, sex, wrestling. How we model addressing the violation is what is learned as the way to react in the future. If we model violating others, that is what is reinforced as "right", no matter what our words say to the contrary .

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Old 01-15-2006, 04:05 PM
 
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I respect your views very much, Pat, so I hope you will take this with the respect that I hope to convey.

I feel as though with your first few paragraphs above, you're preaching to the choir. I think we all know why hitting does not work in the long-term - it's been expressed many times in this very thread - and that it is an issue of autonomy, personal integrity, and respect.

With this:

Quote:
So, yes. Hitting another person is not ok (with the person at the end of the hand/paddle). Therefore, it is not an option, except in consensual relationships such as boxing, football, sex, wrestling. How we model addressing the violation is what is learned as the way to react in the future. If we model violating others, that is what is reinforced as "right", no matter what our words say to the contrary .
It seems as though the point of contention here is one of semantics. You say "hitting is not an option" and you are correct if you are expressing the statement as an ideal that we tell ourselves in order to have our actions follow our thoughts. However, when others say, "hitting is an option," they're also correct because the possibility that someone will strike out physically despite their thoughts exists. It's something that is within the realm of plausibility despite our best intentions and despite the number of times we might repeat our "hitting is not an option" to ourselves.

We all know that hitting another person is never OK. I imagine if the OP felt it was okay, then she would not have started this thread.
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Old 01-15-2006, 04:22 PM
 
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Can I ask you all a question? I am wondering why we WOULDNT talk about spanking as an option here on this board BECAUSE.....I think it's SUPER important to show mamas who are coming to this board for the first or 100th time that spanking is just not an option and is wrong and the way I see to do that is to show BOTH sides of the spanking spectrum. The more we talk about why we DONT spank, the more it makes sense......in other words, we see great threads here about talking with our children, using gentle words, gentle actions, etc.....but what about the mama who comes here and thinks......"how can you never spank your child and still maintain discipline......how can you NOT spank your child when they misbehave?" I have knowns PLENTY of mamas with this mindset......so I think it totally helps for us to hash out why spanking DOESNT work on these boards....and even talk about why it does work in the short run BUT look at the damage it does in the long run so that ALL mamas can make an informed decision about gd'ing.......I hope that makes sense....I"m articulately challenged

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Old 01-15-2006, 04:32 PM
 
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Dagonfly,

I appreciate your point; but hitting a child is being discussed in this thread, as an intentional act with forethought, and whether or not it "works". These are cognitive decision making processes. Not the situation you described where one's emotions override one's beliefs and ideals. One's certainty (or commitment) of one's beliefs is what creates the space for ambivilence or ambiguity in one's actions. Actions stem from core beliefs. In my core, I believe that it is not ok for me to be hit, or to hit. Not a unilateral belief that only '*I* must not be hit, or else I will hit back, even if it is a child, or even if it is my child'.

Pat



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly
I respect your views very much, Pat, so I hope you will take this with the respect that I hope to convey.

I feel as though with your first few paragraphs above, you're preaching to the choir. I think we all know why hitting does not work in the long-term - it's been expressed many times in this very thread - and that it is an issue of autonomy, personal integrity, and respect.

With this:



It seems as though the point of contention here is one of semantics. You say "hitting is not an option" and you are correct if you are expressing the statement as an ideal that we tell ourselves in order to have our actions follow our thoughts. However, when others say, "hitting is an option," they're also correct because the possibility that someone will strike out physically despite their thoughts exists. It's something that is within the realm of plausibility despite our best intentions and despite the number of times we might repeat our "hitting is not an option" to ourselves.

We all know that hitting another person is never OK. I imagine if the OP felt it was okay, then she would not have started this thread.

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Old 01-15-2006, 04:32 PM
 
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[QUOTE=scubamamaIf we model violating others, that is what is reinforced as "right", no matter what our words say to the contrary .

Pat[/QUOTE]


I agree or at the very least, we are saying "well hitting is wrong, but inflicting that wrong is ok when the ends justify the means."

Do you really have any desire at all to teaching a child that hitting is a legitimte means to an end?

I don't. It is not at all what I want my child to learn. So how can "hitting" a child ever "work"?
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Old 01-15-2006, 04:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44
I agree or at the very least, we are saying "well hitting is wrong, but inflicting that wrong is ok when the ends justify the means."

Do you really have any desire at all to teaching a child that hitting is a legitimte means to an end?

I don't. It is not at all what I want my child to learn. So how can "hitting" a child ever "work"?
I agree, hitting is not a legitimate means to an end. I am a pacifist. I "teach" that by modelling. The alternative belief is "might makes right".

With our thoughts, we create the world.~Buddha

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Old 01-15-2006, 09:26 PM
 
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My bolds:

Quote:
I am wondering why we WOULDNT talk about spanking as an option here on this board BECAUSE.....I think it's SUPER important to show mamas who are coming to this board for the first or 100th time that spanking is just not an option
See, it's confusing

I don't have time to read every post at this time, but I wanted to address this MDC advocates the belief that its the parents' responsibilty to nuture the positive rather than to curb a child's tendencies toward "negative" behavior, it would be inconsistant with MDC's mission to ever present spanking as an option. In this forum, spanking may be discussed, but not advocated nor presented as a tool in the GD toolbox. No matter what circumstances.

Hope that clarifies?

I have retired from administration work, so if you have a question about anything MDC-related, please contact Cynthia Mosher. Thanks!
 
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Old 01-15-2006, 09:58 PM
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There is a permanent thread with all the pertinent anti-"spanking" arguments and a multitude of links. Moms who are on the fence or whatnot about it can easily find this thread to get a feel for the position that is advocated by MDC. Those links and the info in the sticky go over all of the common reasons for thinking that hitting children is a good thing to do or that it is sometimes a necessary or effective means of disciplining them.

I think that MDC is in the right to conclude that there is more than sufficient proof (readily available in that sticky) to rule out hitting children as an option. What is the point in continually going over the exact same arguments with newbies or regular members who are thinking of hitting their children? Who is to say which views will be taken from a given thread if MDC allowed posters to support hitting children? How then would MDC be different from other parenting websites? Many would not listen to the rock solid arguments that are readily accessible in the sticky (or bother to read them) and would just continue to post pro-"spanking" sentiments at every opportunity. Others might be confused by the hub-bub of pro- and anti-"spanking" sentiment, oscillating between the two views (not keeping all the info in the sticky in mind). Some may benefit from the discussions and come out of them with a greater anti-"spanking" resolve, but this would be done at a cost to those who take home the pro-"spanking" sentiment contained in the threads (wittingly or not) -- and to their children. I see little benefit and great risks of opening up the discussions at MDC to allow more voice to pro-"spanking" sentiments.
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Old 01-27-2006, 01:46 AM
 
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The Gentle discipline forum guidelines don't condone the use of physical discipline. Please see posts #69 and #83 within this thread for clarification. Here are the posting guidelines which are on a sticky at the top of the forum.

Quote:
Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.


Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara



Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.
Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.


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Old 01-27-2006, 02:07 AM
 
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Deleted.

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Old 01-27-2006, 12:22 PM
 
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Seriously, does it take more than 2 minutes on MDC to realize that NO ONE here advocates hitting children, EVER for ANY reason!
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