Hmph! Guess we're not using diapers anymore. - Advice needed!! - Page 3 - Mothering Forums
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#61 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 04:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scubamama
Wouldn't you?
Honestly, Pat, it would depend on whether I felt I had done a good job teaching my children that sometimes Momma makes decisions for the child's own good that the child may not like but is expected to go along with. That is the parenting model my husband and I have chosen to adopt. I believe that, as a mother, I have a right/responsibility to do things to my children's bodies against their wishes if I deem it necessary. Diaper changes are, to me, necessary (for a child who uses diapers and isn't able to potty train, and of course I would do what I could to make the diaper change pleasant and tolerable for the child, but in the end I will change the child's diaper). We can debate ad infinitum as to whether you agree with my model or whether I agree with yours, but the bottom line is that I expect my kids to aquiesce to my wishes in certain instances and I expect that they do so without throwing a great big noisy fuss.

I'm sure that many people will be completely appalled and horrified by my statement of "I believe that, as a mother, I have a right/responsibility to do things to my children's bodies against their wishes if I deem it necesary," but I am telling you now (politely ) to save your breath about your outrage because I am aware of it but it won't change my mind. My husband and I have examined many different models, philosophies, and strategies of parenting and are comfortable and confident with ours.

Namaste!
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#62 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 04:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by KristiMetz
I am not sure how healthy it is to *distract* him as a means of making him give in and let me do something which he really seems to protest against. It is one thing to do this with a 1 year old who is just irritated at being interrupted... it is another to do this to someone who is over 2 (he's almost 26 months) and is very aware of what he does and does not want being done to his body.
I'm glad that things are better, and I say this in a supportive and not an "Oh you're so ridiculous" way, but I think you are overthinking this. If he's happy watching the video, then you have found a good solution to the problem. At two years old, he'd let you know if it was still a problem!

Namaste!
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#63 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 05:47 PM
 
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That is the parenting model my husband and I have chosen to adopt. I believe that, as a mother, I have a right to do things to my children's bodies against their wishes if I deem it necessary.
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I expect my kids to aquiesce to my wishes in certain instances and I expect that they do so without throwing a great big noisy fuss.
Namaste?




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#64 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scubamama
Namaste?
Yep. Namaste means "the light in me recognizes and prostrates before the light in you." I assume, however, that you know that and are just trying to be snide.

You don't have to like the way I parent. In fact, if you want to hate it, knock yourself out. But please don't resort to snideness. You asked me a question and I gave you an honest answer. If you didn't want my answer, you shouldn't have asked.

Namaste!
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#65 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 05:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dharmamama
Yep. Namaste means "the light in me recognizes and prostrates before the light in you." I assume, however, that you know that and are just trying to be snide.

You don't have to like the way I parent. In fact, if you want to hate it, knock yourself out. But please don't resort to snideness. You asked me a question and I gave you an honest answer. If you didn't want my answer, you shouldn't have asked.

Namaste!
My question wasn't meant snidely. Sincerely, I don't understand the reconciliation with the spiritual intent of Namaste. I am Taoist-leaning. Buddhist-ish in my own spiritual beliefs. I don't understand the apparent contradiction. I apologize that you perceived it as snide.

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#66 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 06:07 PM
 
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I don't see a contradiction in seeing the Buddha nature in other sentient beings and parenting them in the way I believe is best for their long-term physical existence (in this human incarnation) and their long-term spiritual learning over their countless rebirths in the cycle of Samsara.

If you want to get into how my Buddhist faith informs and influences my parenting, I would be happy to do that via PM.

I have discussed parenting with our spiritual teacher, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche, a high lama and yogi from Tibet, and I can assure you that he believes in a much harsher method of parenting than I do.

I apologize if I misunderstood your post and reacted strongly to it.

Namaste!
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#67 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 06:26 PM
 
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Seriously, y'all, if we're not talking about the OP diapering situation, please take it to PM or start a new thread. We need to do our best to stay on topic.

Thanks!

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#68 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 06:27 PM
 
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#69 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
 
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#70 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 09:41 PM
 
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Kay-

I so understand where you are coming from. I belive that as a mother one of the most important lessons is to show that our bodies are ours and to protest at touch that we dont like. I want my daughter to say STOP IT when someone, anyone does something to her that she doesnt like and I want her to know that her protests are effective.

You are a patient and gentle mama, and this will pass. He will NOT be peeing on the floor when hes 16 Realize your limits, be creative. We have gone through a whole bottle of 7th Generation carpet cleaner in the last 2 months. Its because Dd insists on wearing her underwear - even though she is having a few accidents a day. I have considered just laying out old bath towels - easier to clean.

Know you are not the only one with a strong willed 2 year old
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#71 of 123 Old 01-30-2006, 10:10 PM
 
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Kay, I'm so glad it's going a little easier! In the past few days (as I wrote in my thread about this) Max has been loving to hear Harry Potter stories. So it has been easier to do changes as long as I tell him a story with lots of excitement and eye-contact. A couple of times he has even come over to me and lain down for the change!

I'm glad to hear the video is helping, at least for the moment!

About the floor... What would happen in you promised yourself a good floor cleaning after potty learning was a go? I have let go all my tension about peepee floors when I decided that I'm treating myself to a steaming after it's all done.

It's amazing how little I care now when he does go on the floor!
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#72 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 12:32 AM
 
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I want my daughter to say STOP IT when someone, anyone does something to her that she doesnt like and I want her to know that her protests are effective.
Thank you. I was expected to comply to my parents wishes and without an argument ("back talk") because they believed that they had a right to do things to my body against my wishes, if they felt it was necessary or desirable. I did not grant them that right. It was taken from me, against my protest, on many occasions; but that is what I was taught and I did not have a recourse when it progressed to improper touch. I was told "I am your father, I can hug you", although he fondled my breasts as he did so. And I was kissed on the mouth, although I turned away and he laughed 'I can kiss you, I am your father'. And other improper fondling. This "parental" defense does not convey anyone a right to do anything I don't want to my body. Never did, never will.

I want our son to know, without a shadow of a doubt, that no one has the right to decide what is acceptable touch to his body, EXCEPT him. And that each individual expects the same human right to the autonomy and integrity of their own body to be honored. Always. No matter what another's reasons or wishes. Even mine, his mother.

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#73 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 12:44 AM
 
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Yes, I had wanted to thank you for that comment as well, sweetest! (I got distracted... don't know how?!)

It's a totally essential point in this topic of forcing diaper changes. And explained perfectly, scubamama. Very sorry your path has been so painful. I've been down a similar one.
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#74 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 12:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by aira
Yes, I had wanted to thank you for that comment as well, sweetest! (I got distracted... don't know how?!)

It's a totally essential point in this topic of forcing diaper changes. And explained perfectly, scubamama. Very sorry your path has been so painful. I've been down a similar one.
Aira,

I am sorry to hear that also. It is precisely the genital body space integrity of diaper changes that makes it so relevant. I child needs to know and believe that they can ALWAYS say "No! This is my body. I decide." And if their "No" is not honored at home, where can they expect it to be honored? According to whom? Except for what reasons?

Who is to decide if not the individual?

Pat

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#75 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 01:59 AM
 
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Wow, I started reading this thread, and I was thinking...whoa, not forcing even diaper changes? That is extreme. I am new at this parenting thing so I don't really know in what 'camp' I will fall into, i.e. authoritative but GD or non-coercive, but I usually picture myself as gently authoritative, kind of the style from "Kids are Worth It!". Although I think that in reality it will be hard for me not to be a "jellyfish" type of parent, i.e. permissive and inconsistent. But in my mind, at least, I have the idea that children do need to know that some things are non-negotiable, such as diaper changes, if they are not ready to go in a potty.

However, those last few posts really got me to thinking. Pat, I'm sorry about your bad experiences. That is awful. My dad certainly never fondled me inappropriately but he did tickle me until I peed and violated my personal space with abandon. He did not - ever - grant me the right to have my own feelings or my own space or my own anything. He inspired fear, terror...and as a result of his parenting, I didn't know how to say "no", I didn't know what boundaries were. It's been a long road to even start to have appropriate boundaries.

I just can't imagine doing that to my child. I never saw something like making a child get his diaper changed when he is struggling and protesting as being in the same category as tickling a child until they pee, or whatever. But now I will have to rethink that.

I still think that kids need some limits to be set by their parents, and I agree with much of what dharmamama posted; I am not down with the TCS philosophy or radical non-coercion. But this thread has given me pause and made me realize that I need to think about how I will handle situations like this in the future so as to always respect DD and let her set boundaries when it comes to her body. So what I am thinking tentatively IRT this particular issue is that holding her down to change her diaper would never be OK, for example. Whereas getting her to watch a video to distract her for a change, would be totally fine with me.

Interesting thread and I'm glad it didn't get derailed by a smilie war.
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#76 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for your posts, everyone. I think scubamama articulated the thoughts that have been in the back of my mind but that I haven't really been able to consciously talk about.

I was never sexually abused, but my parents did NOT feel at all that they needed to respect me having any boundaries. There were several incidents by both parents which really violated my trust in them. One instance is when I had a loose tooth and my dad tied some floss around it, tied the floss to a door, and slammed the door shut. : Or, I was tickled way past the point anyone should be tickled several times. Or, the time that my mom pretended to hug me, and the hug was an opener for her to pick a little weird bump off of my neck (yes, that is weird, but I VIVIDLY remember this and how stupid and horrible it was).

These types of things have given me a determination that my son will have as much autonomy as I can give him, especially when it comes to having control over his body and feelings (i.e. he is never ordered to give someone a huge and kiss, or other things that the parents around here do).

This thread has given me a lot to think about, in terms of what a small child can and should be able to say "NO" to, versus the guardian's need to ensure the well being of their children and the family as a whole.

Aira - the steam cleaning is a really good suggestion! Thanks, it does help to think in those terms.

Uh-oh... DS is awake...
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#77 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 10:54 AM
 
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I think it's easier for me to see where people are coming from with this - what also seemed to me - extreme reluctance to guide your children through uncomfortable situations.

My mom was a classic hippy from the 1960s. We had all the freedom we wanted and more. And my dad was the kindest of men. Absolutely no infringement of personal boundaries in our household.

Until I was about 11. Then I was so completely out of control that my life sort of fell apart. I had the judgment of a child and the body of a young woman. True to the pattern of my upbringing, there was no one whom I entrusted to oversee my choices or veto my bad decisions. Sure, I loved my parents and continued to be close to them, but I had long since been accustomed to having the ultimate say in exactly what I did. In that way, they were not 'parents' in the classic sense of the word. The dangerous and reckless behaviors of youth looked pretty appealing to me, and I was easy prey for people who didn't care one whit about what was damaging to me.

So that's the other end of that extreme.

On a completely separate note, I can easily understand the horror of a young child being compelled to submit to physical affection against their will. In that case, the emotional injury has a lot to do with the fact that both child and parent KNOW that the action is soley in the interest of the parent. They both recognize that the parent is sacrificing the child's sense of trust and safety in order to appease his/her own pathological sexual or emotional need.

Very injurious indeed.

But that's very different than caring for your son's needs, Kristi. You're not molesting your son. You're helping him to feel clean and responsible. You're caring for his skin and his health and the integrity of the home that he and you and the rest of the family lives in. Believe me, he knows the difference.

The story about your mom pretending to cuddle so she could trick you into getting the lesion picked off your neck made a big impression on me. I'm absolutely unflagging in maintaining my daughter's trust, and I completely understand why this was so distressful for you.

I think it's scary for kids when they experience anger and resistence, especially when it's directed at their parents. Their little childish emotions just aren't mature enough to gauge when and what responses are appropriate to the situation - when they help, and when they HURT. That's your job, mom. When kiddo starts to react as though you changing his diaper is some sort of real trauma, that's when you help him to redefine the situation. That's when you emphasize that this is an appropriate time for TRUST. You help him to see and respond to situations in ways which are helpful rather than hurtful for him.

I hope that makes sense. I can see better where you're coming from now, and I'm hopeful that I can better show you what it is that I'm trying to convey.

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#78 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 01:22 PM
 
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On a completely separate note, I can easily understand the horror of a young child being compelled to submit to physical affection against their will. In that case, the emotional injury has a lot to do with the fact that both child and parent KNOW that the action is soley in the interest of the parent. They both recognize that the parent is sacrificing the child's sense of trust and safety in order to appease his/her own pathological sexual or emotional need.

Very injurious indeed.

But that's very different than caring for your son's needs, Kristi. You're not molesting your son. You're helping him to feel clean and responsible. You're caring for his skin and his health and the integrity of the home that he and you and the rest of the family lives in. Believe me, he knows the difference.
I totally agree with this. I was also molested by a family member as a child. I do not see an occasional protested diaper changing to be at all similar to what I went through, and frankly, I find the suggestion offensive. The motivations are completely different.

I think I mentioned it before in this thread or another similar one, but let me say it again: when we tried to be noncoercive with our daughter regarding diaper changes (in our case, we tried "Let us know when you're ready to be changed"), which meant that she stayed in wet and dirty diapers longer than is ideal, we ended up with a yeast diaper rash that was beyond horrible. That rash, which made my daughter shake in pain when she was wiped, made me feel much worse as a parent than it does to occasionally impose my will on her for a much-needed change (when all else fails).

I think sometimes a young child cannot be given the full right to make a decision about some things, particularly where physical health and safety are involved, because that child cannot be reasonably expected to understand and anticipate the consequences.

I wonder, too, how those of you who say you will always honor a child's "No" handle medical needs. For instance, a few days ago, our two-year-old told us she had put a kernel of popcorn up her nose, a potentially dangerous situation. We had to take her to an after-hours clinic, and although we tried to explain and be distracting and cooperative, in the end there was no alternative to holding her down while she cried while the doctors examined her nose. Did I enjoy this? Heck, no, and we apologized and explained profusely afterwards. But what were our alternatives? How could I safely honor my child's "bodily integrity" and "No" in that case? What about those mamas whose babies have to be tube-fed, and who fight the insertion of the tube? What about my brother, who developed type 1 diabetes at 2 and had to have multiple injections every day to stay alive? You better believe he didn't want those shots, and fought them and cried, but what is a parent to do? Most children will eventually have to experience some kind of physical or medical procedure against their will. I wish it wasn't this way, but I don't think these necessary evils can be compared to sexual molestation. I bristle at the very suggestion.

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#79 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 02:16 PM
 
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Yeah, what loraxc and blessed said.

I was rereading my post and I used the wrong word. Authoritarian parenting is not my cup of tea at all, sorry! I was really tired. I meant...I think...authoritative...like Coloroso's "backbone" parents. Not permissive, not authoritarian. I hope authoritative is the right word. I can't believe I wrote "authoritarian"! I'll edit my post.

I wrote that I do not think total non-coercion is my way, but I want to clarify that that doesn't mean I think coerciveness is good as a general strategy! I think more in terms of guidance, as PP have said. Gawd, I need to start expressing myself better.

And I really need to get some better sleep.
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#80 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 03:04 PM
 
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My son has recently not wanted to have his diaper changed or sit on the potty. Before, he loved both.

Two things that have worked:
1) Promise of Powder. Our little sensuous guy loves baby powder. So, I simply say, well... why don't we go put on some more baby powder???

2)Chaging his brother or his stuffed bear's diaper first. I ask him to come help me change their diaper... and then I say, can Bear change your diaper?? Or can Ali help change your diaper??? For some reason that works.

GOod luck

Mom to DS(8), DS(6), DD(4), and DS(1).  "Kids do as well as they can."

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#81 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 04:32 PM
 
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Blessed I'm trying to understand your pov. But I admit I'm a little confused.

Quote:
Teaching patience and compromise is part of parenting.
Quote:
Life deals us all sorts of unpleasant situations. Our kids need the tools to govern their own feelings and reactions to them, so that they can cope with them effectively.
I definitely agree with both of these quotes and think they are right on.

BUT I just don't see how this-

Quote:
'tough cookie, kid. It's gotta be done'
or this-

Quote:
But when she pulls away, cries or is physically resistent, she's told in firm tones "Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady", and so forth, all the while gently and firmly proceeding with the task at hand. She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.
teaches the child anything but submission and she that shouldn't even bother to cry or make a fuss because it will make no difference. A bit like the agruement one who would be for cry it out would make. 'Well the baby may cry for awhile but it has to learn to deal with sleeping on its own.' Finding alternatives and coming up with pleasant ways to do something unpleasant is a better way to teach the child. Not might makes right, IMO. I believe one of your posts even said you were okay with finding alternatives.

here it is-

Quote:
I talked to her and coaxed her and offered different approaches to see if one felt better than the other.
I guess you draw the line where you deem reasonable, what one attempt, two, three? I applaud the op for coming here for SUPPORT and IDEAS.

Quote:
But at the end of the day, she learned that screaming and fighting with me simply doesn't grant her immunity from carrying through with unpleasant tasks. Rather, what she learned was how to manage her feelings of frustration and anger when life hands you a situation that isn't exactly to her liking.
See from my pov I would worry that at the end of the day dc has learnt something far different. I would worry she has learned to CONTAIN her feelings and expressions of frustration and anger, not DEAL with them.

And I think the point scubamama and aira makes IS a valid one. If a dc learns to submit to something physically against their will and learns 'making a fuss' will not stop it, that is a dangerous lesson. And if a dc learns to cnstantly be looking to mom for cues on when something is ok or not, WHO will they look to when mom is not there? The nearest adult or authority figure. I shudder to think. I would not want to be the one to send my child to shcool at 6 or preschool or daycare even younger. You CAN teach a child some things are best to be done without physically forcing them. You can teach a child to cope with the full myriad of human emotions without physically forcing them. And by goodness I would think a parent could be creative and patient enough, with most children, to find a way to change a diaper with out forcing them too.

And Blessed as far as the AD/HD thing, Little Johnnie most often gets written up for lack of attentiveness, distractedness, and/or inability to focus while sitting still hours on end. NOT for throwing tantrums in school. Little Johnnie likely just does not learn in the same way as Sally and Sue. Little Johnnie would also likely excel in a hands on learning environment. Or perhaps Little Johnnie is truly just an introvert and beong around so many people for hours on end is actually painful for him. Little Johnnie would probably be able to discover this if he had a wise adult to guide him instead of medicating him. Here is a good book to read if you are interested- The Smart Parenting Revolution by Dawna Markova, Ph.D. She talks alot about focusing on succuesses instead of failures and assets rather than decifits. An interesting read. I can quote some statistics about AD/HD if you are interested. It truly is amazing how over diagnosed this condition is in the US.

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#82 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 05:07 PM
 
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Maybe it's a little unfair for me to even make comparisons because, honest to gosh, my baby just does not tantrum with me. I've never had to physically FORCE her to change her diaper, or anything else. I guess the most accurate term for what I do would probably be persuasion.

But I do see her tantrum with other people, most notably dad, for example. So I tend to think that I'm doing something right here. With dad, I've done some coaching at his request, and he is now able to elicit much better communication and cooperation from her.

Example: last night playing at the public library. When time to leave he announces 'we've got to go now, honey' and picks her up. She wails and protests. I take her in my arms and look into her eyes and say "oh honey, you know why we have to go? Because it's dinner time. Papa's hungry and he hasn't eaten all day. You've had fun here today haven't you? (she nods) Me too. I LIKE it when you come with me to the library (hug). We'll come back very soon, okay? But now it's dinner time so we have to go. Say goodbye to your friends!" She waves happily and turns for the door.

So far and away that is the nature of how I guide her through tough spots that otherwise might lead to her being unhappy. It's really all about trust. She trusts me to help frame the situation for her - when it really IS okay, despite her initial unhappy responses.

But that trust come by way of CONSISTENCY. That is so critical, to the point that I hardly think the one can exist without the other. Baby knows that if I'm persistent and firm about something that needs to be done, well then, it's important. She's learned to take cues from me and she follows my lead. NOW that is. After I've done groundwork in laying that basis. A big part of that had to do with being firm and consistent in the beginning, when the rules of the game weren't entirely clear to her. That pretty much means sticking by your guns even when she's challenging me every way possible.

My baby's a post-institutionalized child (aka orphan), and statistically is supposed to be high risk for attachment disorders and developmental delays. But the complete opposite is true. She is developmentally 'gifted' (starting to read at 24 months, for example), and is obviously deeply, deeply bonded to our family. It's not uncommon that other moms get tears in their eyes when they watch baby and I interact (moms always seem to 'get it', dad's not so much ), because they are so moved by how devoted we are to each other.

So, I don't have the answers for every mom, obviously, since kids are so, so different. Just trying to share what worked - and I mean really worked well, despite odds against us - in my own family.

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#83 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 05:11 PM
 
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You're not molesting your son. You're helping him to feel clean and responsible. You're caring for his skin and his health and the integrity of the home that he and you and the rest of the family lives in. Believe me, he knows the difference.
I don't mean any offense whatsoever, here, but what I have to say is pretty direct: How on earth can you know that? Why do you have the authority to even suggest what another person - who you've never even met - feels about encroachment into his personal space? His genitals, at that.


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I was also molested by a family member as a child. I do not see an occasional protested diaper changing to be at all similar to what I went through, and frankly, I find the suggestion offensive. The motivations are completely different.
A similar question here. Why are you offended by how another human is affected by and handles their abuse experience? Do you really feel it's your place to "find offence" in another person's interpretation of what happened to them?

I mean, tons of Americans think that circ is no biggie, and that boys and men who complain about the abuse they suffered should toughen up and not be such sissies. Does that make those people right? Why do those people, who know nothing of the lifes of the victim or what they are feeling about it, get to have an opinion that there was no abuse? The person who lost a foreskin gets to decide just how violated he was.

I suppose that's the whole point here, some people are unwilling to push past the boundaries of those who are feeling violated - true on many levels, I see...
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#84 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 05:15 PM
 
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Blessed, I'm glad to hear you are such a patient and consistent mom. I must've misread all the previous posts...
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#85 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 05:23 PM
 
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Blessed you sound like a very gentle mama who is very devoted and her dc.

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So, I don't have the answers for every mom, obviously, since kids are so, so different. Just trying to share what worked
I totally agree, I don't pretend to have all the answers. Mothering is a diverse, challenging thing.

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#86 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 05:36 PM
 
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I totally agree with this. I was also molested by a family member as a child. I do not see an occasional protested diaper changing to be at all similar to what I went through, and frankly, I find the suggestion offensive. The motivations are completely different.

I think I mentioned it before in this thread or another similar one, but let me say it again: when we tried to be noncoercive with our daughter regarding diaper changes (in our case, we tried "Let us know when you're ready to be changed"), which meant that she stayed in wet and dirty diapers longer than is ideal, we ended up with a yeast diaper rash that was beyond horrible. That rash, which made my daughter shake in pain when she was wiped, made me feel much worse as a parent than it does to occasionally impose my will on her for a much-needed change (when all else fails).

I think sometimes a young child cannot be given the full right to make a decision about some things, particularly where physical health and safety are involved, because that child cannot be reasonably expected to understand and anticipate the consequences.

I wonder, too, how those of you who say you will always honor a child's "No" handle medical needs. For instance, a few days ago, our two-year-old told us she had put a kernel of popcorn up her nose, a potentially dangerous situation. We had to take her to an after-hours clinic, and although we tried to explain and be distracting and cooperative, in the end there was no alternative to holding her down while she cried while the doctors examined her nose. Did I enjoy this? Heck, no, and we apologized and explained profusely afterwards. But what were our alternatives? How could I safely honor my child's "bodily integrity" and "No" in that case? What about those mamas whose babies have to be tube-fed, and who fight the insertion of the tube? What about my brother, who developed type 1 diabetes at 2 and had to have multiple injections every day to stay alive? You better believe he didn't want those shots, and fought them and cried, but what is a parent to do? Most children will eventually have to experience some kind of physical or medical procedure against their will. I wish it wasn't this way, but I don't think these necessary evils can be compared to sexual molestation. I bristle at the very suggestion.


That was a good post. And what a point. I also do not believe in micro-managing my childrens' every moves, but certain things are non-negotiable, like carseats/seatbelts, brushing teeth, washing, and of course changing diapers. If your child is allowed to sit in filth and gets a bad rash because of it, that is out and out negligence and you CAN get into major trouble for it.
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#87 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 09:53 PM
 
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Do you really feel it's your place to "find offence" in another person's interpretation of what happened to them?
Yes, I feel it is my place to object when a needed diaper change, or any routine parental care done for reasons of hygiene and necessity and out of love, is compared to sexual molestation. I find it inflammatory. It's a very charged comparison to make.

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#88 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 10:28 PM
 
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Ya know, my parents told me that my boundaries were violated out of love, caring, and necessity. Does that make it true? Do you know for sure if I'm talking about diaper changes, carseats, spankings, or sexual abuse? I didn't specify.

Does your being offended make even the slightest difference in my experience, how I perceive and process it, or in the implications it has in my parenting? Not even a little.

How exactly does one convey to a small child, "No one should ever touch you in ways that feel bad to you, except if it's for your own good. And if they say they love you. But not if it's molestation!" Do they become desensitized to having their genitals touched against their will by things like this:

Quote:
"Oh no! That's not how we act. Come here please. You heard me, young lady" (snip) She knows the diaper is getting done, period, so screaming, kicking and other drastic measures are not getting her anywhere.
How exactly would a child know what feeling to trust, if they needed to call upon that instinct, when they are talked out of feeling violated when they object to having their genitals wiped? Isn't that the essence of what forms a victim?
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#89 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 10:37 PM
 
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Yes, I feel it is my place to object when a needed diaper change, or any routine parental care done for reasons of hygiene and necessity and out of love, is compared to sexual molestation. I find it inflammatory. It's a very charged comparison to make.
I am sorry that you find it inflamatory. I believe the application of the philosphy of force is a slippery slope. I am not equating the violation of one to the other. I honestly consider the philosophy of the use of force to be commonly applied: The end justifies the means. It just depends on whose ends and who has the means....the assumption of parental prerogative defense is the same.

I didn't have the sense to protest at times, I was so stunned questioning myself 'is this ok, my parent is doing it. I don't like it but what legitimizes my feeling of dissent?' And even when I did protest my dissent was overruled. The action taken against my body when protested on many other occasions dimissed my authority over my own body integrity. How could I have the authority when I didn't like the touch in one situation, have the authority in another situation?

The issue is the disregard for the child's inherent instinct and teaching reliance on another authority figure to legitimize their feelings as 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' as deemed by an other person than himself is the similarity. And I believe this does not serve one to recognize and stand up for one's own personal boundaries through means other than adopting the same tools of conflict resolution that are modelled in childhood: the end justifies the means. Is this not the same philosophy of Bush, and other religious war mongering. It is the belief that might makes right.

Instead, seeking ways without defaulting to force, alters the tools that a child learns toward negotiation and peaceful conflict resolution. No matter what the ends, the means will be peaceful.

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#90 of 123 Old 01-31-2006, 10:47 PM
 
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Until I was about 11. Then I was so completely out of control that my life sort of fell apart. I had the judgment of a child and the body of a young woman. True to the pattern of my upbringing, there was no one whom I entrusted to oversee my choices or veto my bad decisions. Sure, I loved my parents and continued to be close to them, but I had long since been accustomed to having the ultimate say in exactly what I did. In that way, they were not 'parents' in the classic sense of the word. The dangerous and reckless behaviors of youth looked pretty appealing to me, and I was easy prey for people who didn't care one whit about what was damaging to me.

So that's the other end of that extreme.
I think that is interesting because I grew up in a GD home (though they didn't know the term ). There was no spanking, no grounding, no taking away privledges, etc. I found the outcome the exact opposite of you. I was the best equipped of all my friends to deal with the world. I was considered the most "mature", parents loved me, I did well in school, in all my jobs, etc. I really think it was because my parents treated me with respect and because we used the tools of the "adult" world - negotiation, talking, respecting, etc. instead of the tools typically used with children - threats and coercion. My parents were very involved in our lives. They shared their beliefs and the reasons behind him. It wasn't 'do it because I said so', it was 'here is WHY I believe this'. As a result, I do have many of the same beliefs and practices of my parents. My mom is from the south where things are polite and often formal I love that about her and I love the things she shared with me about those beliefs growing up.

So as we have shared in other forums, GD doesn't mean No parenting. It sounds like the latter might have applied in your situation.
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