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#121 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 04:33 PM
 
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Very eloquent post yoopervegan , and right on for me too.

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#122 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 04:51 PM
 
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Yooper - I love your posts


We went through a similar situation with the rash. It took one minor rash for dd to remember the expereince. Same with regulating her food intake. I help to guide her and give a background to her expereinces and to make those associations. - Like too much juice gives us an icky feeling tummy.

My basic feeling is that we need to get from point A to point B (for instance - from in our pjs to our day clothes) but the way we get there is open. Maybe this is a product of the age of the child, but at 2.5 dd knows we need to get dressed. I can dress her, she can dress herself, we can get dressed in her room, in my room, etc. If we do this respectfully of each other, we maintain a basic, fundamental trust that carries over into every aspect of our lives.
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#123 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
In all honesty, these situations really do not come up much. . . But 9 times out of 10 dd does not even question something. If I ask for help cleaning up her toys, she usually helps. And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a biggie since most things are not a biggie. It might take some tweaking or negotiation but it usually does not take much conscious thought. It is very rare that we get into a non-negotiable stalemate, if fact I cannot think of a time when it has happened (except the car in the parking lot example I stated before).
This is the perfect example how similar things look even when we appear to debate the "opposite sides" of this continuum.
THis is how things look at my house too.
I may say there are many things that are "non negotiable" or that I am fully willing to coerce. But 9 times out of 10 my toddlers don't even question something.
And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a "biggie" because we just get through it to the other side.
Only here among so many people who share 90% similarity (give or take) in what we actually do would we find so much to debate in the 10% or less!
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#124 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
"She may think that she likes making all these decisions, but it is making her nervous, depressed and anxious. You as the parents need to make some of these decisions."
*This* is my dd. This year, I am learning (by observing dd) what decisions she can handle, and what decisions she can not yet handle. When given all the decisions that affect her personally, she can get so fraught with anxiety that she doesn't even enjoy her choice--or, will drive us crazy by worrying over choices for days in advance! Although she will sometimes protest, she is overall MUCH happier when I "insist" on some decisions.

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There are some universal 'wrong' ways. No one will ever be happiest being hit or shamed. But getting it right takes many paths.
Every child is different!
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#125 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sweetest
We went through a similar situation with the rash. It took one minor rash for dd to remember the expereince. Same with regulating her food intake. I help to guide her and give a background to her expereinces and to make those associations. - Like too much juice gives us an icky feeling tummy.
Maybe my kid just isn't that perceptive or aware, I dunno, but my 2-year-old has had rashes, and still doesn't "get it"...I can talk to him for 5 minutes about not running in parking lots, but he just doesn't understand (and/or has no impulse control, normal for a 2 yr old) and will bolt when I set him down if I'm not holding his hand. I guess when I read the posts about those who have always offered information and options, and their child "gets it", and I wonder what's wrong with my kid. AND, I'm jealous. I WISH my son would understand more, and help me come up with solutions to situations that we both can agree on and nobody is being forced to do anything...but when he just stares at me and won't go for any of the options I've outlined, and isn't able to offer any options of his own, what am I supposed to do?

This is a serious, genuine post...

Maybe it's just getting back to the temperment thing, that different kids can understand and particpate in things at different ages...and mine happens to not be there yet.

I just can't wait until DS can actively participate in this, I'm sure I'll be less coercive then. For now, though, he doesn't seem to be able to grasp situations or have any ideas of his own (other than the ones that are NOT agreeable to me ), so I do the best I can to make us both as happy as possible, and get through it.

FWIW, our time is vastly coersion free, but sometimes, when his only idea is one that is not OK for me, but he doesn't like any of my alternatives and can't come up with any of his own, something has to give...

Any ideas or thoughts?

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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#126 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by donosmommy04
Maybe my kid just isn't that perceptive or aware, I dunno, but my 2-year-old has had rashes, and still doesn't "get it"...I can talk to him for 5 minutes about not running in parking lots, but he just doesn't understand and will bolt when I set him down if I'm not holding his hand. I guess when I read the posts about those who have always offered information and options, and their child "gets it", and I wonder what's wrong with my kid. AND, I'm jealous.
Yeah this is my kids too. I am always offering information. And I do give them lots of choices. But sometimes it just isnt enough.
Now my 3 year old is getting to a place where he really does get it, especially safety. HE is like "safety boy"!
But my 2 2 1/2 year olds? DS 2 still seems hell bent on getting himself killed.

And to add to it, about the whole food thing mentioned.
Only a few times in my entire life have I ever felt poorly or 'icky' after eating unhealthy food. I am simply not observant enough myself to notice unless it is huge thing, like thanksgiving dinner or an entire half gallon of ice cream.
So to me telling my child that if she wants to eat more x that is up to her but it might make her feel sick. But in my experience usually it doesnt. It might be lackign in necessary nutrients and contribute to poor overall health in the long run. But there has rarely ever been an immediate negative natural consequence for eating the wrong foods in the wrong amounts.
Is this me? Am I wierd this way? Gut of steel perhaps?
Anyway, having this experience I simply cannot imagine how letting my children self regulate junk food can possibly lead to healthy food choices.
I know that I can feel perfectly healthy (in the moment, not the long run) consuming only chocolate and dr pepper and hot pockets.
I know intellectually this is all junk. But I dont feel any different after eating these things.

OK I know this is entirely OT, but somebody mentioned it in a recent post and these questions had been building for a while!!!
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#127 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
I know that I can feel perfectly healthy (in the moment, not the long run) consuming only chocolate and dr pepper and hot pockets.
I know intellectually this is all junk. But I dont feel any different after eating these things.
love it....

Should I mention I just had half a bag of potato chips and M&M's for my afternoon snack? :

Thanks for the commiseration, I fele better knowing I'm not alone with the "pre understanding" kids!

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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#128 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by donosmommy04
Maybe my kid just isn't that perceptive or aware, I dunno, but my 2-year-old has had rashes, and still doesn't "get it"...I can talk to him for 5 minutes about not running in parking lots, but he just doesn't understand (and/or has no impulse control, normal for a 2 yr old) and will bolt when I set him down if I'm not holding his hand. I guess when I read the posts about those who have always offered information and options, and their child "gets it", and I wonder what's wrong with my kid. AND, I'm jealous. I WISH my son would understand more, and help me come up with solutions to situations that we both can agree on and nobody is being forced to do anything...but when he just stares at me and won't go for any of the options I've outlined, and isn't able to offer any options of his own, what am I supposed to do?

This is a serious, genuine post...

Maybe it's just getting back to the temperment thing, that different kids can understand and particpate in things at different ages...and mine happens to not be there yet.

I just can't wait until DS can actively participate in this, I'm sure I'll be less coercive then. For now, though, he doesn't seem to be able to grasp situations or have any ideas of his own (other than the ones that are NOT agreeable to me ), so I do the best I can to make us both as happy as possible, and get through it.

FWIW, our time is vastly coersion free, but sometimes, when his only idea is one that is not OK for me, but he doesn't like any of my alternatives and can't come up with any of his own, something has to give...

Any ideas or thoughts?
don't stress over it...sometimes our best efforts are in vain. My 8 yr old stepson can not deal with choices. He also does not learn from his past mistakes, his mother was VERY lax and did not make sure he knew the importance of self cleansing or toothbrushing, resaulting in painful cavities and even had a tooth fall out. Now that he is home with us more we discovered that he was not brushing his teeth we reminded him about the lost tooth, he recalled what happened and talked about his reaction to it, but we still have to oversee him to make sure he is brushing and not just standing there with his toothbrush in his mouth. As far as everything else, if you give him choices on what he can do he will eather stand in one spot until he forgets what he was deciding or start crying. My daughter on the other hand has always liked to have the choice on how to go about what needs to be done. But she is older now and we have more important things to deal with.With him it has to be one way or no way. Its just him. Not that you should give up on your son, by all means do what you can to teach him to make decisions, but if its his personality to not be able to, don't stress.
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#129 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:32 PM
 
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The parking lot is a good example of a discussion point.

Obviously I cannot let dd experience getting run over to see that running in a parking lot willy nilly is a bad idea. There are a lot of things that she can relatively safely experience (again and again if necessary) like mild hunger, thirst, a too much juice belly ache. But getting run over is not one of those We have not actually had a problem with this because we live in a small town, do not shop much, and dd likes the cart. She likes holding my hand and a few times when she did not want to or my hands were full she was more than content to hold on to my purse. But if this were to become a problem, there are two components that I would have to deal with. One is the then and there situation. As she is pulling away and stating she wants to run, the first thing I would do is get down to her level and survey the scene from her perspective. Point out moving cars, other walkers, places she could go out of my sight where she could not easily find me. The I would aknowledge that running is fun and see if we could not find a way that was mutually agreeable to get what she wants. Maybe hold hands to an empty part of the lot and let her run a few minutes. Maybe go to the park right afterwards. Or often times giving her the BIG JOB of carrying a bag or the car keys diffuses the moment.

Then there is the second component. Now that I know my dc wants to run without hand holding, it is time to learn about awareness, the dangers of cars, looking both ways, etc.... We have started some of this in preparation for her probably wanting to walk more come this spring. Dh and dd had a great time running over balloon animals (and various other disposable things) with the car. I drove back and forth in the driveway while they planted various objects in my path. Old food in plastic conatiners is a favorite. Dh wanted dd to see that the car was dangerous so she understood standing back when someone is backing out of the garage. They discussed how the things got hurt, the "guts" came out, they could not be put back together, and how this correlates with people. We could also check out library books on looking both ways and getting lost. We can play "parking lot" with little people cars and figurines. We can go in the driveway with the bikes and practice looking both ways and being aware of moving vehicles. We can sit in the window seat of the coffee shop and practice looking both ways and deciding when the road is "safe" for crossing. The possibilities are endless. Some kids need none of this, they seem to get it right away. Some kids will need all this and more. It will vary from kid to kid and situation to situation. My dd "got" diaper rashes without much issue. It has taken much more effort to learn about getting enough sleep. She seems to need a lot more experimentation, discussion, and research. I have no idea why.
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#130 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
This is the perfect example how similar things look even when we appear to debate the "opposite sides" of this continuum.
THis is how things look at my house too.
I may say there are many things that are "non negotiable" or that I am fully willing to coerce. But 9 times out of 10 my toddlers don't even question something.
And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a "biggie" because we just get through it to the other side.
Only here among so many people who share 90% similarity (give or take) in what we actually do would we find so much to debate in the 10% or less!
I know! Sometimes it seriously cracks me up the finer points we discuss to death when we probably do most things the same But it is fun to dissect that 10%, eh?
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#131 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
But 9 times out of 10 dd does not even question something. If I ask for help cleaning up her toys, she usually helps. And the 1 in 10 time is usually not a biggie since most things are not a biggie.
I agree, very helpful and eloquent post, yooper. I want to also chime in that, believe it or not, this is what life in my home looks like also these days (having gotten past some of my personal quirks and difficulties). We really all get along very pleasantly, we all cooperate very well. My kids have plenty of trust in me and my guidance and my ability to help them through difficulties. There just isn't a whole lot of struggle in our daily lives, we do manage to avoid it. We are all more alike than we are different.

donosmommy, I have a child who as a toddler (recently) got rashes but still didn't want to be changed (and she could not stand the feel of rash cream, either). We managed to get through it somehow without a lot of struggle, just a lot of waiting and reminding. Now, she hated having a poopy diaper so it was the pee that she was more than willing to sit in. Then she'd have a rash and she'd complain of her vulva hurting but she hated any sort of rash cream or powder. Thankfully, we are now done with diapers during the day and she joyfully sheds her nighttime diaper in the morning. It was frustrating. She outgrew it.

As to the parking lot, it takes time. My first two kids were awesome in the parking lot-no running, always holding my hand, nary a problem. My current toddler though, I avoided parking lots as much as possible or when in parking lots carried her in a backpack or she rode in a stroller or cart-if we could find a way to keep her off the ground (if she wanted to walk, there was no keeping her off the ground without major unpleasantness), we did. She just ran, and screamed when we would scoop her up, which was just always a miserable experience. What helped us most was when for awhile she walked right beside me ("you can walk right next to me, stay close, cars are coming") in some parking lots (the quietest ones) and I kept my hand on the back of her coat/shirt/head so I could grab her if need be-it gave her some freedom, and she never did run the times we did this. Eventually she got it, and now always willingly holds my hand in the parking lot so long as she is reassured that she can walk on her own when we get to safety (sidewalk).

Some kids just don't get things as easily/quickly. Some things just take time.
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#132 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by johub
Yeah this is my kids too. I am always offering information. And I do give them lots of choices. But sometimes it just isnt enough.
Now my 3 year old is getting to a place where he really does get it, especially safety. HE is like "safety boy"!
But my 2 2 1/2 year olds? DS 2 still seems hell bent on getting himself killed.

And to add to it, about the whole food thing mentioned.
Only a few times in my entire life have I ever felt poorly or 'icky' after eating unhealthy food. I am simply not observant enough myself to notice unless it is huge thing, like thanksgiving dinner or an entire half gallon of ice cream.
So to me telling my child that if she wants to eat more x that is up to her but it might make her feel sick. But in my experience usually it doesnt. It might be lackign in necessary nutrients and contribute to poor overall health in the long run. But there has rarely ever been an immediate negative natural consequence for eating the wrong foods in the wrong amounts.
Is this me? Am I wierd this way? Gut of steel perhaps?
Anyway, having this experience I simply cannot imagine how letting my children self regulate junk food can possibly lead to healthy food choices.
I know that I can feel perfectly healthy (in the moment, not the long run) consuming only chocolate and dr pepper and hot pockets.
I know intellectually this is all junk. But I dont feel any different after eating these things.

OK I know this is entirely OT, but somebody mentioned it in a recent post and these questions had been building for a while!!!
I used to be able to eat huge amounts of junk and not feel it either..... I do remember being in middle school and feeling sick when eating too much junk. My parents were almost non-coercive....except for food. My mom is quite overweight and was terrified that her kids would be too. We were never allowed to have junk food. Once I got old enough to get my hands on it myself, I would binge on it and feel bad. But I still did it over and over until it did not effect me. It took make years to break this habit. Now I am back to a healthy eating point and can no longer eat much junk without feeling it. I cannot drink a whole can of soda or eat more than a small piece of (very good gourmet) chocolate. I think each person is very different. I do not know how it affects dd. she is allowed to eat as much of whatever she wants, but since she cannot drive and buy food, she is limited by what is available at home and places we go. I have found that with unlimited access to her Hallowween candy (for instance) she seems to stop well before I expect her to. We have never discussed it, she just does. When I was a kid, I would eat my Halloween candy as fast as I could because I was afraid my mom would take it and do the dreaded you-can-only-have-two-pieces-a-day routine that she pulled on me every year.
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Thanks ladies, for the support....I guess I'm just *waiting* for the lightbulb to come on and him starting to be more able to discuss things with me. I think unitl then, it's goign to be tough for me to *not* coerce him, at least sometimes...believe me, it's my absolute last option, but when he cannot/does not participate, sometimes it's my only optoin to make the best of things and get them done.

I have a strange feeling he's gonna be one of those "learn the hard way" people, just like his dad

I think the thing that is most frustrating to me is that most of the time, he's fine with diapers, and holding my hand in parking lots, and getting in the car, and going downstairs when it's time for dinner, etc. No issues whatsoever, no coersion needed. But when he's not, MAN, he's not....and it seems that he is completely unwilling to negotiate anything that's not 100% his way....hmm, the more I write about this, the more it sounds like I'm describing DH!

Soooo, I'm just gonna keep on keeping on, doing what I can, explaining, empathizing, and talking, and just counting the days until we're able to have actual conversations that he can participate in!

Heather, WAHM to DS (01/04)DD (06/06). Wed to DH(09/97)
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#134 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 05:53 PM
 
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nd a few times we all got too involved doing something really fun that what I thought was 10 minutes truned into 30 and she got a minor rash. So we talked about rashes when she got them. We talked about what causes them, how to treat them, how to prevent them. Dd hated having her dipe changed and we made a lot of new games, places, methods, positions to help her. But she never refused because she knew that she would get a rash. This is part of learning.
I totally see how this would work with a three-year-old. In fact, it's quite possible that the reason my DD, who just turned two, is no longer fighting changes is because our explanations are now making sense to her. But she started fighting changes passionately at, I think, maybe 14-15 months old? What 15-month-old can understand this sort of thing? Not to be overproud, either, but my 15mo was speaking clearly and in sentences...still, an "if...then" equation did not function for her at that age.

I really notice that different kids have different capacities for understanding and being logical about these "if-then" explanatory ways of handling things. Actually, my DD seems to respond well to this sort of thing, generally, but I know a lot of kids who just seem to be too impulsive/active/nonverbal to "hear" these explanations, even at 2 or 3.

I just think there is not enough room for individual differences and age-appropriateness in this way of thinking.

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Now if I had the habit of forcing my dd to do things with her body that she did not want to do, I can see how this could have happened. Had I just "tried on" consensual living for that trip only or even for that week only, I can also see how my dd would not nessecarily have cooperated.
I am trying to be polite here, but what this sort of sounds like is, "Your child doesn't trust you. If she did, she wouldn't have had a problem with an invasive medical procedure." Um... I guess this is where this discussion continues to go south for me. I dislike the assumption that if at some point one's best efforts do not "work," it must be because one is a "lesser" parent. For your own sake, too, I hope that if someday, heaven forbid, you DO have to restrain your child for a medical procedure, you do not assume that it must be because you have failed as a gentle parent and yourt child doesn't trust in you any longer.

grateful mother to DD, 1/04, and DS, 2/08

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#135 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 06:03 PM
 
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As far as food goes, I am very strict about what is in our house. But dd can have anything she wants. And at preschool she is very good about regulating her own food intake. She amazes me that she can take a bite of a cookie and have enough (I cant )

Of course the most important thing is to know your child and thier capaciticies. That has been the biggest lesson for me overall as a parent - is to be able to step back and recognize age appropriate behavior as a fundamental tool of learning about the world (hmmmm, what happens when I take a handful of oatmeal and throw it against the wall?) and to not discourage it, but to give the child room to learn. There have been many threads on this.

Parenting my dd has really helped me recognize the same behaviors in myself - I need to debate and anaylze everything
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#136 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 06:50 PM
 
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I totally see how this would work with a three-year-old. In fact, it's quite possible that the reason my DD, who just turned two, is no longer fighting changes is because our explanations are now making sense to her. But she started fighting changes passionately at, I think, maybe 14-15 months old? What 15-month-old can understand this sort of thing? Not to be overproud, either, but my 15mo was speaking clearly and in sentences...still, an "if...then" equation did not function for her at that age.

I really notice that different kids have different capacities for understanding and being logical about these "if-then" explanatory ways of handling things. Actually, my DD seems to respond well to this sort of thing, generally, but I know a lot of kids who just seem to be too impulsive/active/nonverbal to "hear" these explanations, even at 2 or 3.

I just think there is not enough room for individual differences and age-appropriateness in this way of thinking.



I am trying to be polite here, but what this sort of sounds like is, "Your child doesn't trust you. If she did, she wouldn't have had a problem with an invasive medical procedure." Um... I guess this is where this discussion continues to go south for me. I dislike the assumption that if at some point one's best efforts do not "work," it must be because one is a "lesser" parent. For your own sake, too, I hope that if someday, heaven forbid, you DO have to restrain your child for a medical procedure, you do not assume that it must be because you have failed as a gentle parent and yourt child doesn't trust in you any longer.
I think you missed where I said that I was surprised the ER was not a problem. I was fully expecting dd to have issue with it and then I was prepared to work outside of my normal parenting parameters because it was an emergency. If we had another emergency tonight I would not necessarily think that it would all be roses. I might be fine, it might not. I think that having always done my best to protect dd's body integrity made it easier. But all I can do it speculate since I really do not know.

I was just trying to answer the questions that you claimed were going unaddressed. I answered with how I would or have handled them. That is all. I speculated on why I thought it went better than expected. If we had to resort to more coersive methods because it was an emergency, I certainly would not think I failed as a parent. I would feel bad for dd feeling violated, but if there was no other way, then I would have to accept that.

My 2.5 yo is potty savvy so the dipes have not been an issue in the recent past. However, it was when dd was under two that we had these struggles and what I posted is how I handled it. I do not think the rash explanation sunk it the first time it happened. In fact I know it didnt because it was when she was pre-verbal. We talked about rashes probably 15 times. How much she picked up in each conversation is a mystery. But at some point it did sink it. Once she was verbal she could actually tell me that leaving a poopy diaper made rashes. When she was preverbal we had to find other ways to help make diaper changing agreeable to everyone. 90% of the time that dd did not want a change, simply waiting 5 minutes was the solution. She just needed time for it to sink it that it was going to happen soon.

I agree with you 100% that different kids and different ages need different approaches. It is my belief that it is possible to live mostly (except for some emergencies) consenusally with different kids and different ages. But the approach might be VASTLY different. I have had to change my approaches almost monthly. Sometimes (most of the time) dd is just happy to go along. Sometimes (rarely) it takes what seems like a great deal of effort to explain something. Sometimes it seems that it does not sink in and we become stuck for a short amount on time where no one is right or wrong and we just hold that space for a while. Sometimes distraction helps. Soemtimes playfulness helps. Sometimes being there and being sad with dc helps. My only real full-time experience is my own and I have learned that while it was bumpy when we first decided to go in this direction, that most days are actually not any more difficult and often less difficult than where we were before we committed to strive to live consensually.

I do not know what else to say. I am sorry you feel bad. I do not think you are a bad parent or failed. We have different parenting styles because we both believe ours to be the best for our families. Of we feel it to tbe best for our families, we have reasons and I think it is OK and healthy to discuss those reasons. I tried to answer your questions because you felt no one had
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#137 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 07:37 PM
 
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I don't have time to look through all 7 pages of this thread, but it looks to me like many who have responded have eith only one or two kids, or their kids are still very young. I have 4 kids and one more on the way. My kids are 10, 8, 5 and 3. From my experience there are many things which are just worth forcing. Bed time, bath, t.v., diapers, leaving a friends house when mom or dad says so, not 10 minutes later, brushing teeth, homework, etc. It sounds mean, but I once negtiated all these things and take it from a mom who knows, kids will keep negotiating the same thing, day after day. For example, bath/shower. They say no. You say o.k. tomorrow. The next day, you say bath and they throw a fit and say tomorrow. It is never ending. On the other hand you could do what we do. We say shower and our 6 year old say, NOOOOOOOO! So we ask another time nice. If he still refuses, we hold him in the shower and do a quick shampoo and cleaning. The next day he goes to the shower on his own. I believe that kids need to know who is in charge. Oh and CHORES are non-negotiable. They can negotiate a different chore, but once the chore is decided on, you must do it before all other things.

Do I sound like a "hard ass"? I hope so, but I don't think my kids would call me one. I think compared to many parents I know, I am very easy going.
I must say that I believe in also giving my children privileges when they are older. They earn these by showing me they are responsible. My older two take the public bus home from school. We don't get a school bus. They may also take the dog for a walk and stay home by themselves for short times.
I don't have the time to wait for my children to decide to take a bath, or brush their teeth.
I have been told that I have great kids. I must be doing something right!
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#138 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 07:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
We have different parenting styles because we both believe ours to be the best for our families. Of we feel it to tbe best for our families, we have reasons and I think it is OK and healthy to discuss those reasons.
I agree, Yooper! Thanks for the explanation of how you've dealt with some of your issues.

And let me ask, in the parking lot example, when you get down next to dd, would you physically restrain her? Put a hand on her? I'm asking because my dd, who is a Safety First kind of gal anyway, has still occasionally been distracted right out of the store and tried to bolt. I usually have baby brother and a bag or something, but even if I didn't I don't think I could get her attention back before it was too late, and I've had to grab her, which I'd prefer to avoid! This has only happened a few times, but once all I could get was her hood, and her zipper scratcher her throat and really hurt her feelings. Maybe you have quicker reflexes? Or do you kind of get in front of her?

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#139 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 08:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by natensarah
I agree, Yooper! Thanks for the explanation of how you've dealt with some of your issues.

And let me ask, in the parking lot example, when you get down next to dd, would you physically restrain her? Put a hand on her? I'm asking because my dd, who is a Safety First kind of gal anyway, has still occasionally been distracted right out of the store and tried to bolt. I usually have baby brother and a bag or something, but even if I didn't I don't think I could get her attention back before it was too late, and I've had to grab her, which I'd prefer to avoid! This has only happened a few times, but once all I could get was her hood, and her zipper scratcher her throat and really hurt her feelings. Maybe you have quicker reflexes? Or do you kind of get in front of her?
That would be very situation specific. If we were in a non-crowded parking lot and I had time to see if a car was coming and there was not one coming, I would probably let her go, catch up, then do the "get down on her level thing". If I did not have time to assess the situation or could see a car coming, you bet I would grab her. We did have this problem in front of our house. We live on a semi-busy street and the only thing between the door and the road is 4 feet of sidewalk. When dd was first walking she would bolt out into the road. Once or twice I had to grab her and a few other times she ran into the street and I did not stop her as I could see no one was coming. In the cases when she ran into the road, I followed and tried to let her get her fill of whatever it was she wanted to see/do/feel about the road letting her know that I would help her to do that anytime it was safe. Unfortunately, going out the door is something that occurs mulitple times a day and I did not have time to really work on it with her before attempting it again. Like with the parking lot, if we were having an issue like that, we would not try a parking lot again until we had lots of time to dissect the experience then we would probably start with a very non-busy lot and work our way up. With our road, I found that even better than really researching the problem, I just started having chats with dd as I was getting her ready to go outside. Not sure how much sunk in as she was quite young but it seemed to "work". I would mention that I was really worried she would get hurt by a car and that it would give me peace of mind if she would either hold my hand or allow herself to be carried. She could not really answer as she couldn't talk. But then we went out and I gently held her hand and she consented by not pulling away. It was not perfect at first, but after a few days it became routine and I could stop the chats. She now always demands a hand to go out the door (especially after the squishing stuff with the car episodes). It sounds like a big ordeal when all spelled out, but we are only talking 10 second chats.

Then there is always the "what if she STILL wants to run into the road/parking lot" questions. And to be honest, I do not necessarily know. I do know that in each situation we have come to so far, there was a solution that we both agreed upon. What that is for each kid, I do not know. It might take some work. A lot of work! But my experience so far has been that most kids do not want to get squished, they just lack impulse control, good memory, or a grasp of the laws of physics at that moment and it is my job to try and help dd to develop whats he needs to be safe. And it usually (almost always) is not a big deal and does not require a great amount of work. Especially when they come to learn that your info is good, you have thier best interests in mind, and despite that (unless imediately life threatening) you will do what you can to find a mutually agreeable solution.

Man, it really sounds like I have to run to the library and squish things with the car every time some issue comes up. It sounds like a great deal of work. But it really isn't like that. It is very few issues that we have to go to those legnths with.
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#140 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 08:18 PM
 
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Originally Posted by robin4kids
I don't have time to look through all 7 pages of this thread, but it looks to me like many who have responded have eith only one or two kids, or their kids are still very young. I have 4 kids and one more on the way. My kids are 10, 8, 5 and 3. From my experience there are many things which are just worth forcing. Bed time, bath, t.v., diapers, leaving a friends house when mom or dad says so, not 10 minutes later, brushing teeth, homework, etc. It sounds mean, but I once negtiated all these things and take it from a mom who knows, kids will keep negotiating the same thing, day after day. For example, bath/shower. They say no. You say o.k. tomorrow. The next day, you say bath and they throw a fit and say tomorrow. It is never ending. On the other hand you could do what we do. We say shower and our 6 year old say, NOOOOOOOO! So we ask another time nice. If he still refuses, we hold him in the shower and do a quick shampoo and cleaning. The next day he goes to the shower on his own. I believe that kids need to know who is in charge. Oh and CHORES are non-negotiable. They can negotiate a different chore, but once the chore is decided on, you must do it before all other things.

Do I sound like a "hard ass"? I hope so, but I don't think my kids would call me one. I think compared to many parents I know, I am very easy going.
I must say that I believe in also giving my children privileges when they are older. They earn these by showing me they are responsible. My older two take the public bus home from school. We don't get a school bus. They may also take the dog for a walk and stay home by themselves for short times.
I don't have the time to wait for my children to decide to take a bath, or brush their teeth.
I have been told that I have great kids. I must be doing something right!
Me me! I have four kids and this is my house too. Although my 3 youngest are 3, 2, and 2 so there isnt much in the way of chores.
And my oldest, well, let's just say that chores are non-negotiable, but that doesnt mean they always get done :
My kids entire day is filled with "non negotiables" . It isnt that I am physically forcing them to do things. It is just that these things happen and they are expected to go along with it. I'll do what I can to make it easy on them. But when push comes to shove, I dont have the time or energy to negotiate every single process every day for four kids.
Instead of "would you like a shower or a bath?" "Would you like to take it before or after dinner?" "What toys do you want to play with?" etcetera in my home it is "bath time" or "Shower time" everybody take off their clothes. If ds1 says "But I dont want to take a shower, I want a bath instead." I tell him, we cant do a bath tonight but we will do a bath next time. And he says OK and we go on with it.
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#141 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 08:36 PM
 
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The key concept that I see as essential to both "consensual" parenting and "authoritative" parenting (don't know if those are the best words but ykwim) is TRUST between parents and children.
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#142 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 08:52 PM
 
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A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?
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#143 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 09:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?
First, thanks for your response to my question. Again, it's interesting how similar we are in the day-to-day parenting. I've done all this, except for the running things over with a car part. I think that would scare her to death, as she's already very cautious about it. The few times, she's been really, really distracted and excited by something, and just not realized where she was.

So, in response to your question.

If my dd doesn't want to do the chore, which at this age is really only picking up her toys and books, I try playful parenting, breaking it down, asking again, a few other things. If they don't work, I just do it. I actually don't do all of those things. I try not to be a naggin' Nancy. But sometimes I tell her the importance of helping out and that if we all work together it keeps our house clean, blah, blah, blah. Mostly she does it.

If she doesn't want to take a bath, I say "Yippeee!" She ALWAYS wants to take a 1 hour long bubble bath with LOTS of water, and I think it's wasteful, not to mention expensive. So for us, I guess the question would be, what if she wants to do that but can't? I say, "I'm sorry, we don't have time tonight for a long bath. Do you want to skip? Or do you want to have a quickie bath with a little bit of water? Or do you want to take a shower with me in the morning?" Occasionally she says, "I don't want any of those choices." To which I might respond, "Well, what do you think we should do?" or, depending on the situation, "I'm sorry you don't like them, but those are the only choices there are."

Every night, as my dd finishes reading books with my dh, nearly nodding off, she says, "I don't want to go to bed." I pick her up gently, she lays her tired head on my shoulder, and I say, "I know, but we have to let our bodies rest so we can have another fun day tomorrow. We had lots of fun today," and then I talk about a highlight of our day. Usually that's all she needs, sometimes she repeats that she doesn't want to go to bed, so I try to talk to her about the fun thing she can do tomorrow after she's rested. I don't offer choices about bedtime. Bedtime is a hot button issue for me, I've lost my temper with her for waking up her brother more than I'd like to admit, and this mellow, in control approach is working really well. It's not ideal, I'd like to do things differently, but it's the most harmonious approach we've come up with so far.

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#144 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 10:22 PM
 
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I was just trying to answer the questions that you claimed were going unaddressed. I answered with how I would or have handled them. That is all. I speculated on why I thought it went better than expected. If we had to resort to more coersive methods because it was an emergency, I certainly would not think I failed as a parent. I would feel bad for dd feeling violated, but if there was no other way, then I would have to accept that.
Thank you--this clarifies a little and helps. I do appreciate your answering my questions, and I did not say that before.

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What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?
I take it you mean that they will not do these things and that we have tried every technique we can think of, right? This is an interesting question that I can't answer quite yet, since I only have one kid and she is only two. If she will not help me pick up toys, I usually ask one more time, explain why I want it done, and then, if she still doesn't do it, I do it for her. The times when she DOES pick up toys, which these days is every time (yay!) I tell her how much that helps me and thank her.

If she did not do a chore as an older kid...hmm. I don't think I've decided yet. Right now we are no-punishment, but with an older kid I'm not sure my current method (ask, remind, then do it for her) is appropriate. I will have to think about that one when we get there, I guess.

She has never not wanted to take a bath. I guess she likes baths! I have occasionally forced the issue a bit--mildly, really mildly--with wiping off really dirty face or hands, especially with regard to clean hands before eating.

She also does not protest going to bed. Occasionally she will ask for one more story, which we at this point will do, because it has never gotten to be a problem. This is one that might verge on the occasional nonnegotiable with me, though, at least in terms of "It is bedtime and you need to stay in your room and stay quiet with the lights off." (No rule against us staying with her, but I can imagine requiring that she attempt to sleep and not play or run around, for instance.) Bed and sleep are pretty big ones for me, as I know that DD is a kid who really melts without enough sleep. Fortunately, we are not having issues with that these days.

grateful mother to DD, 1/04, and DS, 2/08

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#145 of 261 Old 02-03-2006, 10:54 PM
 
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A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?

1. Won't do the chore.
State that it needs to be done and that it is their job
If it does not happen and I want it done I do it for them THEN (and this was after age 4 or so:
"I had to pick up your toys. That is your job and you did not do it. Next time I expect you to do it."

2. Will not get in the bath or won't get into bed
State again that they need to get in bed or take a bath. THEN do "active waiting" where you just kind of stand there calmly but sort of like you are waiting for a bus to come.


I have found these all I ever needed to do. And like many here I get cooperation 95 precent of the time.
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#146 of 261 Old 02-04-2006, 12:17 AM
 
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A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?
For my 2 and 3 year olds chores are simple and I do them with them as a group activity so it really isnt an issue. If crayons are on the floor I tell them it is time for us to pick up the crayons and if they are reluctant Igive a more specific instruction such as "will you please give me that green crayon?" or "I will get the crayons under the table, can you get the ones under the chair."
But it is their responsibility to participate and while they are almost always happy to help (if I am doing it too) they will occasionally refuse and then I redirect them back to the job until it is engaged in.
As for my dd1, well, she is 13 and there are some issues. RIght now I am "choosing my battles" an awful lot. BUt in theory, if the chore isnt done, she doesnt get to do the next leisure thing she has planned. The problem is her day is full of non leisure things like school and rehearsal and sleep and dinner which I am not going to withhold until she does her work. So it sits sometimes till she has soemthing she wants to do.

If they will not get in the bath/shower, I place them in the bath/shower. If they will not get in bed I place them in their beds.
eta. Keep in mind that this is for the 2 and 3 year olds, not the 13 year old
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#147 of 261 Old 02-04-2006, 10:44 AM
 
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Originally Posted by yoopervegan
A question for the non-negotiables.....

What do you do if your child will not do the chore or will not get in the bath or will not get in the bed?
1) Chore

I tell my kids that we won't be moving on to Y until X has been completed. For example, the kids want to do Starfall (their latest obsession) but their dinosaurs are lying neglected all over the floor: "After you put away your dinosaurs, we can do Starfall." Efram: "Starfall! Starfall! Starfall!" Ramona: "But I'm too tiiiiiiiiiiiiiired/cooooooold/threeeeeeee years old to put them away!" Me: "Ok. I'll be unloading the dishwasher. Let me know when you have put them away and then we can do Starfall."

2) Bath

I never make my kids bathe if they don't want to. It's just not important enough to me. If they have just fallen into a mud puddle I will at least wipe off their faces and hands but actually that has never happened.

3) Bed

My kids don't have to be in bed at bedtime. They do have to be in their room, and I just tell them, "You don't have to go to sleep if you don't want to, you can play in your room if you want." Somehow my kids just know that they have to stay in their room. They have tested us, of course, and we have just taken them back to their rooms or given them a snack to take with them.

Namaste!
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#148 of 261 Old 02-04-2006, 12:19 PM
 
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Yooper, I LOVE your posts. They are inspiring. I will need you, scuba and cc over here to teach me more
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#149 of 261 Old 02-04-2006, 01:29 PM
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They do have to be in their room, and I just tell them, "You don't have to go to sleep if you don't want to, you can play in your room if you want."
Can someone explain that to me? I never understood that line of thinking. I am not trying to be snarky -- I just don't get that ... if your children can stay up as late as they want playing or whatever, why are they isolated in their rooms instead of being able to be with the rest of the family if they choose?

I am not picking on you, I have seen this in a lot of different posts and discussions and I am wondering what the reasoning is behind it?
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#150 of 261 Old 02-04-2006, 01:34 PM
 
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Thanks for answering my question

I was truly curious and it is interesting to see the different approaches. I think I have a "spirited" child. Well, I know I do which is what lead me to where I am. She would seriously freak to be put in her room. She does not (will not) sleep by herself and definitely also will not be in a room by herself unless she is getting into something really fun like my moisterizer this morning
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