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#121 of 134 Old 05-18-2006, 06:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brigianna



I wouldn't. I wouldn't consider him wrong to refuse to spend money on something like that. It would be a nice guy thing to do, but not his duty, I don't think.


Also, in my own opinion, I don't think intervening in a fight between two adults is at all the same thing as intervening in a child abuse situation. Adults have legal rights. They have options. They can stand up for themselves. If a man is standing in a public place yelling at his girlfriend, it's because she's choosing to stand there and fight with him (it takes two to fight, as the saying goes). A defenseless child has no rights and no options. So to me, it's a totally different situation--I would intervene for the child, but let the adults work it out themselves.
My issue is with the pleading and the obviouse lack of power the wife would have in that situation. In a marriage where one stays home to raise the children so the other can work to bring in dollars. Then it is both of their incomes and it is not completely his decision to "refuse" the wife. That aside, it is the obvious humiliation that is going on that I have issue with. I have stepped in between a man and his girlfriend/wife because there are times when the power balance shifts so much that it becomes abuse.
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#122 of 134 Old 05-18-2006, 08:19 PM
 
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I just don't see why it matters whether the parents humiliated her on-purpose or not.

The outcome is the same. The little girl is humiliated - and told them so repeatedly. At a minimum they just didn't care.
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#123 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 12:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mama8
My issue is with the pleading and the obviouse lack of power the wife would have in that situation. In a marriage where one stays home to raise the children so the other can work to bring in dollars. Then it is both of their incomes and it is not completely his decision to "refuse" the wife. That aside, it is the obvious humiliation that is going on that I have issue with. I have stepped in between a man and his girlfriend/wife because there are times when the power balance shifts so much that it becomes abuse.
This is off topic, but personally, in my own opinion, I would regard a spouse situation, or really any dispute between adults, as a private matter that is none of my business. I do understand your point about his income being both of their incomes so they should both have a say, and that is how it works in our family, but I wouldn't say that a couple who have a different arrangement are wrong.

I honestly don't think it's comparable to a child abuse situation at all. To me the difference is legal rights. An adult always has the right to leave, to make other arrangements, and to have recourse if her rights are being violated. Even between spouses, there is always the option of separation or divorce. Now, plenty of people don't believe in divorce--I don't. I would certainly never divorce my dh for refusing to buy me new clothes. But I have the legal right to do so. A child has *no* legal rights with regards to his parents, not even the most basic right to be free from physical violence. A child can't leave or divorce his parents if they mistreat him. So to me that is the fundamental difference.




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Originally Posted by aira
I just don't see why it matters whether the parents humiliated her on-purpose or not.

The outcome is the same. The little girl is humiliated - and told them so repeatedly. At a minimum they just didn't care.
Well, it doesn't matter as far as outcome. They were certainly wrong in their treatment of the girl. Even if, for whatever reason, they regarded it as absolutely non-negotiable that they get that particular swimsuit, they could have been a lot nicer about it. I just don't think it's fair to assume all these other things about their parenting (the swimsuit was punishment, they regularly humiliate her on purpose, they probably beat her, etc.).

And maybe they did care. Maybe she'd been whining all day (or all week, or all month) about how she wanted some particular swimsuit, and they'd gently, reasonably explaned over and over again why she couldn't have that one, and by that time they were just worn out.

I'm sure that some people have probably seen me in the store and thought I was demon-mommy for firmly saying, "no, we are not buying that" to a whining, crying child. What they wouldn't have known was that we were in about the 40th round of discussion about that. But still, I was wrong. And those parents that Nextcommercial saw were wrong. But I don't think it's *necessarily* part of a larger pattern of abuse and humiliation.
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#124 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 01:36 AM
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Well I see your point, but I think we'de have to be there. It all depends upon the tones of the voices, their body language, etc. But I'm pretty sure that if the OP felt the need to step in, she was probably pretty darn sure that they were humiliating her, not just that they couldn't afford the swimsuit or something.
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#125 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 02:06 AM
 
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ive had my dad humiliate me more than once. he still does and im 20 and have a child of my own. if someone would have stepped in i would have been so grateful. but he would have taken it out on me later for "making him look bad" thats just how he is. but im sure that little girl was grateful that someone stuck up for her...
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#126 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 11:00 AM
 
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Think a point that is being missed here is that they weren't refusing to buy her a suit as far as we know but forcing her to wear something that she felt ashamed to wear and then forcing her to parade across the store in public in it. So she wasn't whining to get something but pleading not to be made to do something she felt ashamed and humiliated in doing.
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#127 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 11:23 AM
 
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#128 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 11:41 AM
 
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I think you handled it exceptionally well. I would have said "something" but maybe not nearly as well as you put it.

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#129 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 05:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Mama8
Think a point that is being missed here is that they weren't refusing to buy her a suit as far as we know but forcing her to wear something that she felt ashamed to wear and then forcing her to parade across the store in public in it. So she wasn't whining to get something but pleading not to be made to do something she felt ashamed and humiliated in doing.
That is true. Although we don't really know whether she was ashamed or humiliated, just that she didn't want to do it. And still, we don't know what had been explained to her in advance, or anything. But they *definitely* shouldn't have made her wear something she didn't want to wear.
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#130 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 05:28 PM
 
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Well, I just don't see it as such a big leap. People don't *not want to do something* and plead, beg, or carry on unless they feel a strong aversion to the action.

Whatever you want to call that feeling - shame, humiliation, "her unhappy place", a rose - it's the same.

That level of semantical detail is irrelevant to that child, and therefore IMO this discussion.
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#131 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 05:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aira
Well, I just don't see it as such a big leap. People don't *not want to do something* and plead, beg, or carry on unless they feel a strong aversion to the action.

Whatever you want to call that feeling - shame, humiliation, "her unhappy place", a rose - it's the same.

That level of semantical detail is irrelevant to that child, and therefore IMO this discussion.
I agree, it's irrelevant to the child, but not to the parents' intent, which is the only thing I was meaning to address. But, yes, the child is wronged either way.
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#132 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 05:54 PM
 
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Well, I refer to what I said before...

At a minimum, they just didn't care. They forced her to do something that she pleaded not to do. That's enough intent in my book.

If we're looking for some line between typical authoritarian parenting and, say, sadism... Then I guess the distiction is important.
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#133 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by aira
Well, I refer to what I said before...

At a minimum, they just didn't care. They forced her to do something that she pleaded not to do. That's enough intent in my book.

If we're looking for some line between typical authoritarian parenting and, say, sadism... Then I guess the distiction is important.
I completely agree. Intent, we know what they say about the road to hell and what paves it right?

I don't think there was much speculation on the OP's end truthfully. It is one thing to have the child say "mooo ooooom, I don't like this one, can we look more?" or whatever. It is quite another to like, be begging and pleading and practically in tears while someone is forcing you to do something you are not okay with.

I mean, not to play Monday quarterback or anything but there were like 3204973209437240 reactions the parents could have had that would have been okay in my book -- maybe not things I would have done, but far better than humiliating their daughter and making her beg and plead.
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#134 of 134 Old 05-19-2006, 08:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by aira
Well, I refer to what I said before...

At a minimum, they just didn't care. They forced her to do something that she pleaded not to do. That's enough intent in my book.

If we're looking for some line between typical authoritarian parenting and, say, sadism... Then I guess the distiction is important.
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