Do you know anyone who spanks? - Page 5 - Mothering Forums

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#121 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 03:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Chanley
Lets call a spade a spade.

The real issue here is that some people call themselves AP and STILL consider hitting a useful tool in disciplining thier child. Spanking and AP do not go together. AP parents try to STOP spanking if they do it at all. They strive to find more attachment forming ways of communicating with thier child/ren.

So when you email API, make sure you just ask them what thier stance is on the usefulness of corporal punishment within the boundaries of AP. Let's not cloud the issue with defensive blather.
Nope, that's a completely separate issue and one we very specifically do not debate on this forum. The issue is whether it is useful or not useful to the AP movement to have one or more "deal breakers." API is one source of leadership in the AP movement. They seem to say quite clearly, you can still call yourself an "attachment parent" if you do not meet ideals.

Remember you said:
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Originally Posted by Chanley
But Gentle Discipline is a deal breaker with AP in my opinion. You simply cannot AP if you can defend spanking as a choice in your parenting tool box. There is NOTHING attachment forming in hitting another person.
You have every right to this well considered opinion, and whether one particular source of leadership among many agrees with you or not, does not make your opinion less valid. It simply shows disagreement among leadership.

I'll restate my position: If we want more children slept with, kept in close proximity to their primary caregiver in their tender years, held close, given positive discipline, etc., I don't think having deal breakers shunning parents from calling themselves AP is helpful.

I hear that you do because, as you stated, you think it sets a bad example for young women.

Did I hear something wrong?
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#122 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 03:40 PM
 
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Most of the parents I know spank, most of the parents I associate with do not spank. I don't tend to have a lot in common with people who think hitting children is acceptable. It's only one aspect of their lives, but it tells you a lot about their opinions on many other things, usually.
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#123 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Qtopia
I am a happy, active member of API.

But, they are not the be-all and end-all of attachment parenting. They are not the "keepers" of AP or the originators of the term/movement. Which is why I'm a little perplexed as to why you are even contacting them. What is your purpose is doing that? And how is it even relevant to this discussion? The way you are describing it, pigpokey, makes them sound like they are some kind of cult and we have to take all their official stances as just that, official. Hooey.
I don't feel that way at all (cult reference). I think they are one major source of leadership. They have put a great deal of thought into defining ideals of the movement and defining the movement. Clearly there are others who have done so also including board members.
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#124 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 04:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pigpokey
I'll restate my position: If we want more children slept with, kept in close proximity to their primary caregiver in their tender years, held close, given positive discipline, etc., I don't think having deal breakers shunning parents from calling themselves AP is helpful.
If that's your argument, I have to say "No thanks." I want all those things you describe, but I am not willing to have them by allowing people to think that beating their kids is okay.

If that makes me dogmatic, so be it. I'd rather be dogmatic than condone physical punishment.
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#125 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 05:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pigpokey


To those of you who see yourselves as leaders of the AP movement, and want people shunned who believe they are part of the movement but do strive to practice API's ideal # 7 of 8 (positive discipline) 100% of the time, perhaps you should send a strongly worded letter to API.
I don't view myself as a "leader of the AP movement" and I certainly am not arguing for anyone being "shunned." I generally don't like labels anyway. My point was that, sure people can strive to AP parent (and should!) and yet still make all sorts of mistakes. But to affirmatively argue that those mistakes foster attachment is just wrong. Hitting does NOT foster attachment. It is not something to rationalize or strive for. No matter what API says.

As someone else stated, I do not judge parents who lose it and hit. Who decided to ff without knowing the benefits of breasmilk. Who circ'ed without full disclosure. But I wouldn't try to rationalize those things as fostering attachment. They don't. That is what I personally have a problem with, not imperfect people striving for AP (like myself!). The people who argue that hitting IS AP are the ones making the big disconnect, IMO.

So while one can certainly self-identify with AP without practicing every tenet, I just can't get comfortable with rationalizing hitting as falling under the AP umbrella. For example, I might say that I follow most AP tenets but have never cloth-diapered. I would not defend disposable diapers as falling under the AP umbrella (not sure this is the best example but it's all I could think of at the moment). But I do still consider myself to strive for attachment parenting (I don't like labels much so I don't really call myself an "AP'er"). I hope that clarifies where I am coming from.
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#126 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 06:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtopia
If that's your argument, I have to say "No thanks." I want all those things you describe, but I am not willing to have them by allowing people to think that beating their kids is okay.

If that makes me dogmatic, so be it. I'd rather be dogmatic than condone physical punishment.
:

I see this argument about other issues as well - well we should soften our stance so more people will feel comfortable joining our group. Once they join we can work on what they do wrong. In many cases compromise is correct and the most peaceful way to solve an issue, but there are also many instances where it is not the way to go and this is one of them.

I will be proud to call myself dogmatic here. You cannot condone spanking and be AP. If you condone it then it means you have no understanding of what it means to be attached to your child. The most basic premise of AP, to me, isn't about CDing, slinging, bf, or co-sleeping. It is respecting your child as a human being with all of the rights and emotions (hopefully) afforded to any other human being. Condoning hitting a child demonstrates that you do not respect that child so I see absolutely no way that said person can be at all attached to their child. They can call themselves "attached" all day long, but they aren't.

edited to add: You want to hear what someone in a position of leadership in AP circles think how about we go to Dr. Sears. Seeing as he coined the termed "attachment parenting" I think he qualifies as a leader in the field:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp
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#127 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 07:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by peacelovingmama
For example, I might say that I follow most AP tenets but have never cloth-diapered. I would not defend disposable diapers as falling under the AP umbrella (not sure this is the best example but it's all I could think of at the moment).

Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?
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#128 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 07:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?
That's what I keep wondering, too! As long as their comfortable, I don't think kids give a crap what's on them, no pun intended. I doubt the type of diapers you choose is going to profoundly affect your child's psyche, but spanking them does.

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#129 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 07:19 PM
 
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i haven't had a chance to read all of the posts but i am here to say that spanking is still alive and strong where i live. in fact, when most people find out that i don't spank, they look at me like i'm a freak of nature. i'm one of six siblings and only two of us don't spank. my brother and SIL don't spank mainly because she's swedish. she said that it's not a common practice there and she couldn't imagine hitting her children. i have quite a few friends/acquaintances who seem very AP in most aspects and they still spank occasionally. alot of people from this area are misinformed by thinking that because you don't spank that your children just run amok. they think that somehow their children are better behaved b/c they're spanked. when our kids all get together, they all act pretty much the same (although many of the spanked kids are actually worse!). whenever they bring up spanking to me, i just point out that their kids don't act any better so obviously the spanking isn't more effective than what i do.
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#130 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 07:26 PM
 
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Somebody else answered this well earlier in the thread, but it may have gotten a little lost so I'll answer it here too.

It really has nothing to do with attachment to my way of thinking. It's NFL, but many people follow both and sort of use NFL examples in AP situations. It sounds to me like your decision was an AP one - you paid attention to how your child was most comfortable and went with that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maya44
Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?
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#131 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 08:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chann96
edited to add: You want to hear what someone in a position of leadership in AP circles think how about we go to Dr. Sears. Seeing as he coined the termed "attachment parenting" I think he qualifies as a leader in the field:

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp
Ummm but this article is another example of AP leadership against the "deal breaker" approach to attachment parenting.
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#132 of 154 Old 06-21-2006, 09:05 PM
 
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You know what - you're right and I rescind my endorsement of Dr. Sears on this topic.

I do not believe you can teach a child to be attached to you and to trust you if you hit them. And frankly, I find it difficult to see a situation where an attached parent would need or want to spank. Hitting my child would be like hitting myself and even with her extremely limited expressive language I have yet to have a situation so out of control that I even thought about hitting. Spanking is nothing more than hitting someone just because they are smaller and one can do it and it doesn't require actually paying attention to the situation and its roots and trying to actually solve the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pigpokey
Ummm but this article is another example of AP leadership against the "deal breaker" approach to attachment parenting.
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#133 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 12:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
Isn't the kind of diapers one uses irrelevant in terms of AP. I mean, its certainly NFL to use cloth. But I know for certain that my dd's were more comfortable in 'sposies (way less rashes in fact none) than they were when we used cloth at my SIL. She had all the best stuff but no matter, sposies kept my kids drier and more comfortable.

I certainly understand the environmental NFL reasons for using cloth, but how in the world does that foster more attachment?
Probably, yes. And my example was not a very effective one. I think that may be why there is so much friction around this (hitting kids) topic. There are many decisions that are not technically "AP" but that don't necessarily destroy a parent's attachment to a child.

Disposable diapers, for instance. And ffing can be done with love and attachment. Even circ is a one-time decision that a parent may make without enough information (and regret) and a parent can still be very attached to a circ'ed child. But to rationalize hitting is to again and again violate a child. And to pretend that is o.k.

As so many have already stated, hiitting a child absolutely erodes attachment. I think that seeing people who claim to be AP but who actually defend violence against their kids really rubs people the wrong way.

Maybe like a self-proclaimed "feminist" (also a broad term with lots of manifestations) claiming that men should still have the right to hit women. Sure, feminists come in many forms and with many beliefs. But justifying violence against women? Just disconnect, huge disconnect! Same with "attachment" parenting and hitting children.
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#134 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 12:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by peacelovingmama
There are many decisions that are not technically "AP" but that don't necessarily destroy a parent's attachment to a child.

Disposable diapers, for instance.

I 100 percent agree that hitting a child is simply not and can not be a part of AP.

I understand how formula feeding is "technically not AP' but can be done in a very loving and attached way.

But please explain why using disposable diapers is "technically not AP"
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#135 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 12:50 AM
 
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#136 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 12:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by chann96
I do not believe you can teach a child to be attached to you and to trust you if you hit them. And frankly, I find it difficult to see a situation where an attached parent would need or want to spank. Hitting my child would be like hitting myself and even with her extremely limited expressive language I have yet to have a situation so out of control that I even thought about hitting. Spanking is nothing more than hitting someone just because they are smaller and one can do it and it doesn't require actually paying attention to the situation and its roots and trying to actually solve the problem.
I think it's a pretty broad generalization to say that parents who spank have no attachment to their child. Or that their children don't trust them. I mean, it's just not that simple. I'm not arguing for spanking here, it does erode attachment, it does damage trust, but most often not to the complete destruction of the relationship.

And frankly, as an attached parent, there have been many, many situations where I have wanted to spank. I've never needed to (obviously), in all but one situation I've been able to resist, but I've still wanted to. I'm glad for you that you've never been so frustrated that you feel like lashing out, but many, many people have. Maybe that's what pigpokey's after, a little more acceptance of our humanity as parents.

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#137 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 01:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by maya44
I 100 percent agree that hitting a child is simply not and can not be a part of AP.

I understand how formula feeding is "technically not AP' but can be done in a very loving and attached way.

But please explain why using disposable diapers is "technically not AP"
I thought cloth-diapering was one of the practices embraced by the AP community. But I could be wrong. I don't do it myself and I don't feel that it affects attachment. I really just wanted to use an example to show that I too don't follow every "tenet" of AP. But if I am wrong on this one, that is ok.

The important point is that hitting kids DESTROYS attachment. Other decisions (what you put on their bottoms, how you feed them, whether or not you surgically alter their genitals) do not do this, although I don't think they are embraced by the AP community (circ, ffing).
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#138 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 01:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by natensarah
. Maybe that's what pigpokey's after, a little more acceptance of our humanity as parents.

I agree that this is a good thing! Some parents CIO, ff, circ, use cribs, hit, etc. and it doesn't mean they are bad parents. It does mean they are human. But when we are describing the ideal, what practices foster attachment, we simply cannot include hitting. So good parents may make mistakes. That still doesn't mean that hitting fosters attachment or is o.k.
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#139 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 11:08 AM
 
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jazluv99, I thought it was interesting that your SIL is Sweedish. One of my early memories (about age 9) was getting off a ferry boat with my parents in Sweden to see some of their friends. My brother had run off right as we were deboarding. My American dad found him and was livid, clearly about to spank, a police officer had stopped and was waching, and our Swedish friend ran over to my Dad to stop him. He was very respectful of my father but explained it was actually illegal to spank there and that he could get arrested.
Sadly, I was so used to spanking that the thought of it being illegal was just weird to me. I couldn't imagine a parent not spanking.
Anyway, now that I'm a parent I think it's absolutely fabulous that there are places like that in this world. So yay for Sweeden!
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#140 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 11:11 AM
 
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Um, yeah, just catching up on this thread.

Spanking is not AP. Not not not. There is no way around that. I don't care if we exclude spankers as self-identifying as AP, in fact I think that is a good thing.

Spanking is not okay, and it is most certainly not attachment-promoting.
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#141 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 12:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by thismama

Spanking is not AP. Not not not. There is no way around that. I don't care if we exclude spankers as self-identifying as AP, in fact I think that is a good thing.

Spanking is not okay, and it is most certainly not attachment-promoting.
Thank you for having the ovaries to say that! I agree completely.
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#142 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 12:43 PM
 
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I completely agree with thismama as usual.

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#143 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 03:18 PM
 
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I've witnessed my brother's GF smack their daughter (2 yrs old) over the last two years since she was born. It pisses me off to no end and they KNOW how I feel about disciplining a child. It's not my brother, however, it's his GF that does the discipline in front of people and she isn't embarrassed to smack their little girl for just touching something that isn't her's. She's smacked her in the past when she grabbed a toy from one of my kids and I would be like "they're all kids, just let them play!!!" I can't stand it!! At 6 mos old my brother's GF was trying to teach her not to take toys from the older kids by smacking her hand and putting her in time out, 6 mos old!!!! They've watched me raise two kids in front of them for the past 11 years and know how I feel about it too and still don't seem to care. :

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#144 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 07:46 PM
 
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if someone is trying to parent in an attatched manner then they would want to avoid spanking. however evryone comes from a different starting point ykwim?

if someone was raised by an ap parent, then i don't think spanking would occur to them as a means of discipline. but some of us are trying to overcome how we were raised and what the social norms are in our part of the world. not just that but some of us found ap when our kids were a little older. my oldest is 6 and i didn't have mdc til maybe this time last year. i nevr used spanking as my first line of discipline but i would have had no support for not spanking at all. now i'm in my own homw w/ just me dh and the kids so that makes it a little easier. but dd and i are still caught in the "cycle of violence". less and less though.

i'm one of the trying ones. i'm trying not to spank. i'm trying not to yell either. i think that can be just as bad. and having been on the gd forum a lot lately i'm starting to question time outs/sending her to her room. etc. i would nevr claim that spanking promotes attatchment though.

i am sort of lost at the moment as to how to get dd to mind. (and sometimes weather i need her to mind at all anyway) i don't want to dominate her. i don't want her to fear me but sometimes i want her to just go to bed or brush her teeth or whatever without all the drama and hassle ykwim?

so i'm still journeying.
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#145 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 07:48 PM
 
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I do think there is a difference between a parent who is trying to find alternate ways of discplining and a parent who think spanking is a-ok.

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#146 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 08:08 PM
 
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Practically everyone I know spanks to some degree.

Some think it's essential to a kid's spiritual and moral upbringing, and would never consider removing corporal punishment from their repertoire, no matter how many "secular studies" come out against the practice, no matter whether it becomes illegal, no matter what. These people frighten me a little.

Others take a more, "this is what's right for my family" approach, acknowleging that there are alternate methods of parenting.

Some reserve spanking for "emergency" situations; others use it as practically their only discipline method.

Some start in babyhood (!!!) while others start at the "age of reason," whenever that is. Some continue till their kids are older teens. Others stop sometime around puberty.

None of it is what I'd call attachment parenting. I miss the mark pretty regularly on the parenting gig, notably today, but I don't mind calling spanking "hitting a kid."
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#147 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 08:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tempestjewel
One thing I really hate is the word "spank". I hate how words exist that make something sound better then it really is, kwim? To me spanking = hitting and it should be called that.
Thank you for this! I totally agree, and will from now on refer to it as hitting, and nothing less. You have inspired me.

Unfortunately, the question for me is whether I know anyone else besides DH and I who do NOT hit our children. All of his family members do, and my MIL even told me once that she believes every child needs a good "spanking" now and then. As if it were a vitamin supplement or something! I have a SIL who truly believes her kids need a good kick in the butt sometimes, and honestly believes that without those regular kicks they would behave worse than they do. I think deep down she doesn't like hitting and kicking her kids, but truly sees no other way around it, as it gets the results she believes she needs. But maybe I give her too much credit, she also shames her kids regularly in public and believes anyone who would even CONSIDER homebirth needs a good kick in the butt, too. : There are two friends of mine who live near me who I know for certain don't hit their kids, and my best friend who lives far away from me. Both of my friends that live near me are considered odd and freaky among their other family and friends. That's everyone I know for certain. I might be able to convince a couple of my sisters and my brother that hitting isn't necessary when they decide to have kids, but who knows about their spouses/future spouses. I will definitely try, though.
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#148 of 154 Old 06-22-2006, 10:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by natensarah
I think it's a pretty broad generalization to say that parents who spank have no attachment to their child. Or that their children don't trust them. I mean, it's just not that simple. I'm not arguing for spanking here, it does erode attachment, it does damage trust, but most often not to the complete destruction of the relationship.

And frankly, as an attached parent, there have been many, many situations where I have wanted to spank. I've never needed to (obviously), in all but one situation I've been able to resist, but I've still wanted to. I'm glad for you that you've never been so frustrated that you feel like lashing out, but many, many people have. Maybe that's what pigpokey's after, a little more acceptance of our humanity as parents.
I think the point has been missed here. From what I can tell, pigpokey has been arguing that parents who hit their children but who otherwise claim to follow AP practices should certainly be considered AP by the rest of the community. No one is saying that a parent trying their hardest but who has slipped up before is not AP, or that a parent who used to use hitting as a discipline tool but who is struggling to learn not to, is not AP. It is the advocacy that spanking is "ok" and will not interfere with attachment that is being argued. I most certainly have gotten to the point where I feel like it would be easy just to spank my son to get him to stop whatever tantrum, etc. But thankfully I always realize that it is my own temper speaking - and how can my ds learn to control his temper if I can't control mine? Not only do I not physically assault my child in those situations but I also manage to empathize with him. THAT is attachment forming. Creating fear by hitting just is not anywhere on the AP spectrum, I'm a little baffled at the debate to be honest.

Me: married to my :fireman Mama to my littles: Toby 8/04 and Elina 10/08
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#149 of 154 Old 06-23-2006, 10:17 AM
 
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I only read the first page, but I'm right there with everyone else. EVERYONE in my family spanks (xcept my sibs, but they don't have kids yet, and I think when they do 4 out of the 5 of them will not spank!!! ).

My grandmother tells me about how my ds spirit needs breaking and a few good smacks to the a$$ would do it, my other one told me about how she used to spank her kids so hard it hurt her and they'd just laugh - but then tells me that sometimes there's just nothing else you can do. My MIL says that sometimes kids need to be spanked even if they aren't doing anything really bad because it sends a jolt up their spine and resets their brain or some such nonsense :

I have two IRL friends. One is pretty gentle most of the time, but her dh spanks and believes that it is necessary. The other I thought was pretty gentle, but she apparently puts soap in her dc's mouth and I don't know, but I have a sneaking suspicion that she has spanked before. I do know that she does little swats to their hands sometimes.

My best friend for YEARS and I drifted apart because when I told her and her dh that I had no intention of spanking my ds (he was 3 months at the time) and they laughed in my face and told me I was going to regret it and it wouldn't be long before I was bringing him over to get him 'straightened out'.

All my coworkers used to joke about 'fingerpainting that a$$' which I suppose is nicer than refering to it as "beating that a$$" which I hear alot more people say now. They laugh and joke about it and think it's funny.

I find alot of hostility from people who do spank that hear that I don't. On a scale of 1 to 10 in regards to behavior (10 being perfect) their kid can be a 3 and that's how they justify spanking. But for them to believe that not spanking is a legitimate way to raise a child they expect that my children will be about a 9 - very polite at all times, always listening, sitting knitting instead of running around the playground screaming with other kids. Otherwise they say "well, look, that isn't working for you. Your ds is socially innept" (heard that when we were discussing spanking while my ds decided that he wasn't going to play with a child who was calling him offensive names).
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#150 of 154 Old 06-23-2006, 10:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellyaellen
if someone is trying to parent in an attatched manner then they would want to avoid spanking. however evryone comes from a different starting point ykwim?
Yes, ITA. But this does not mean spanking falls within the definition of AP. Parents who spank may be striving toward AP, or may include many other AP practices in their parenting. But the spanking itself is not AP, and I think including it is misleading and waters down the definition of AP so much as to render it useless.

As an aside, many of us who choose not to spank our children come from spanking or abusive backgrounds. And ITA that making differing choices from how we were raised can be very challenging. I know for me I often feel at a loss in parenting, because I have no models for how to parent that are respectful and non-abusive.
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