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123 magic?

2K views 20 replies 14 participants last post by  Piglet68 
#1 ·
I haven't posted on this forum in a little while because reading these threads makes me feel like a terrible mother. We have some serious serious behaviorial issues with my 3 y.o. She is quite a challenge. We have been referred to the behavioral specialist at the local children's hospital. We went to the first appointment and they plan to have 2 more evaluation appointments before we finally get a plan going on how to deal with our situation, but he did say that as a start for children who display the type of behaviors that dd displays - that 123 magic is an excellent read.

Just in summary, brief summary, she has extreme, really really extreme defiance, not normal 3 yo defiance, but just over the top. she refuses to adopt any type of schedule no matter how leniant, she lives by her time only.
Anyway, I don't know anything about this book. I'm just wondering if anyone can comment on whether this book is worth purchasing?
Thoughts!
Sorry I'm not being more specific on her type of behaviors, but I could write an entire novel, I didn't really want to do that, just sort of get some thoughts about this book.
Thanks!
Amy
 
#2 ·
at one point when i was struggling with my 3yo not listening to anything ever, i started to read 123 magic...but decided that it wasn't gonna work for me (because i didn't agree with what he said should happen after "3"). but at the time, i asked about it on here and was pointed to several threads that had been devoted to it. if you do a search in this forum, under "123" or "1 2 3" i'm sure you'll find oodles!
: good luck...
 
#4 ·
I don't like it because it's a "one size fits all" kind of approach. It advocates time out as punishment (and it is punitive time out) for every kind of infraction. I'm a firm believer in natural consequences when possible and logical consequences when that's not. So, it's much more logical that our son misses a birthday party that he was really looking forward too because he's not ready to go in time than it is to send him to his room for a time out.

But, I've heard from several people that it's good place to start if things are out of control at your house and you feel you need to establish some limits with your child. It is good for the 'here's a limit, oh wait, maybe not this time' kind of parent who has trouble being consistent. (Lack of consistency will make any kind of behavior escalate, because the child never knows when it's going to work.)

'Love and Logic' is along those lines as well, but I find it better, as there are more natural consequences built in before time outs.

You might check the "sticky" at the top of the board for more reading recommendations too.
 
#5 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by LynnS6
(Lack of consistency will make any kind of behavior escalate, because the child never knows when it's going to work.)
Eh, I just have to disagree with this statement. I'm sure there are kids out there who need lots of consistency, but I'm not really that consistent, and I've never seen behavior "escalate" as a result. I'm sorry, I don't want to derail, but I've had times when I've felt like I had to be very consistent and stick to my guns no matter what and halfway into the battle, I've realized I regretted it. Because when it becomes a battle of will, I don't want to win. I don't want to "break" my dd, or "make her give in." I'd much rather figure out a cooperative way for us both to accomplish our goals, and I consider myself on the stricter end of GD.

Just my little caveat about books like this. I haven't read 123 Magic, but I read Elizabeth Pantley's discipline book which has the same message of sticking to your guns no matter what, and I just don't think it's realistic or honest.
 
#6 ·
Hi, I have never read the book. I had a very high spirited child in my older son when he was 2 to 5 years old. I used the 123 approach without even knowing it. AFter 3 well...I stuck to the time out approach. Even if we were at wal mart or something. I would drop what i was shopping and go find a seat somewhere for him. It worked. It honestly worked for him.
 
#7 ·
I don't advocate it because I'm a non-punishment type of parent.

I would ask yourself what is the real problem. In other words, is it her reaction that you find so upsetting? Is it that she doesn't cooperate or help out with things when you ask? Are you having difficulties getting things done during the day? Figure that out first.

Reactions are reactions and you don't have to get personally involved (although it's hard not to when it's your child!). When my child encounters a limit that there just isn't any way around, then I try to validate her feelings and give her what comfort she needs (or space, if that is what she wants) but I let her "get it out" even if that's a full-blown tantrum. It's okay for kids to have tantrums, it doesn't mean you have to do something to "stop them". And I think it's important for kids to go through that process of recognizing "futility" and moving to acceptance.

If you are having trouble getting her to do things then don't count on her doing them. Don't expect her to help out as much. If you are having trouble getting things done, then plan accordingly and don't try to do too much in one day.

I personally don't trust "parenting experts" that much, certainly not the medical professionals, so I would wonder what sort of philosophy that person has. I mean, 3 year olds are pretty darned defiant! If you are finding that it really is over the top (i.e. not related to being tired, hungry, overstimulated, etc) then you might want to look at diet. That can really affect behaviour.

But I don't think resorting to time outs is going to do anything except force her to suppress her negative feelings, while at the same time building a whole lot of resentment towards you for exerting yourself over her that way.
 
#8 ·
Quote:
you might want to look at diet. That can really affect behaviour.

But I don't think resorting to time outs is going to do anything except force her to suppress her negative feelings, while at the same time building a whole lot of resentment towards you for exerting yourself over her that way.
Yep!

I would first check out the Feingold Diet and dairy (there are lots of posts in the Health & Healing: Allergies forum re. dairy and behavior). When my kid has a reaction to food, he is out of his gourd--can't focus, can't listen, aggresive, hyper, and very uncooperative ("defiant").

From now on I'm just going to copy and post Piglet's posts. So much easier!
 
#9 ·
I watched the 1-2-3 magic video when my oldest was 3 or 4 & put it into practice & it worked very well. I stopped using it, even though it brought good results, because I decided I disagreed with the meathod. I don't want my kids behaving out of fear of isolation. I caution anyone to beware of "quick fixes" like this. Our kids are worth more. Thankfully with love & patience (more than I thought I had sometimes) my VERY spirited little boy has turned into a very responsible 8 yr. old who is a joy. Give it time & when you think you've had enough...give it MORE time. Spirited kids need a special type of parenting.
It's SO worth it!
 
#10 ·
I've read the book and I can give you a review.

The good: It helps parents understand that there is a value especially for difficult kids in having parental consistancy.

The bad: Everything else in the book. It is very us versus them. I believe what your kid needs to know is that you are on their side but this book is about conflict and someone winning or losing. There is no attempt in the method to encourage a parent to look critically at the situation - is the kid melting down because they are tired and just ate a bucket of candy, are they having trouble because we have 10,000 pointless rules, does this kid need more than "because I said so". There is no place in the method for teaching anything more complex than "do it because I say so". Most kids need a lot more than that. There is very little substance to the book or the approach. Really, if you want to try it you don't need a book. It goes like this. When your kid does something you don't like say 1, if they continue say 2 if they continue say three and send them to their room. That's it.

My alternative book suggestion would be The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. This method is about working together to learn to solve problems. http://www.ccps.info/ http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

My suggestion would be to read the Explosive Child. Do what you can to make your home environment peaceful - good food, not a lot of extra noise, plenty of exercise, low tension, etc. Keep a chart of what is going on - what is the child eating, how much are they sleeping, when are they having tantrums - do you see any patterns emerging? I know this is hard to do when you are tired and overwhelmed by what is going on with your child but it is necessary. I would also advise looking into food intolerances.
 
#11 ·
I think it can work to get a handle on things when they are really out of control, but as a long term strategy.....eh, I don't like it so much. Too rigid and cookie cutter.

Maybe see if your library has it or if you can borrow it from a friend, give it a read, and see what you think.
 
#12 ·
Quote:
watched the 1-2-3 magic video when my oldest was 3 or 4 & put it into practice & it worked very well. I stopped using it, even though it brought good results, because I decided I disagreed with the meathod. I don't want my kids behaving out of fear of isolation. I caution anyone to beware of "quick fixes" like this. Our kids are worth more. Thankfully with love & patience (more than I thought I had sometimes) my VERY spirited little boy has turned into a very responsible 8 yr. old who is a joy. Give it time & when you think you've had enough...give it MORE time. Spirited kids need a special type of parenting. It's SO worth it!
I agree with this. While 123 worked GREAT(you must always stick to the after 3 bit for it to work), I would never do it again because I have learned to be very patient with my older ds. He is 12 now, very confident and lots of joy, and no bad came from the 123 approach, however, I just wouldnt do it again, because as the quote says, our kids are worth more.
 
#14 ·
Hmm... I think all books on parenting are worth reading because they open your mind to new perspectives or at the very least allow you to come to the conclusion that "that" method is not for your family (whatever "that" may be...)
:

Personally, I have read 123 magic and I think it is worth reading. For a family that has no strategies it gives a very precise method to follow that is effective. The author (Phelan) is totally against corporal punishment and aggressive parenting. He believes that his method is gentle in that it prevents parental outbursts of angry frustration, thereby keeping the whole family happy and productive. I agree with a previous poster that it may help your family in the short term, but that you should continue to read in order to move past this method in the long term.

Now, I know that those of us who have also read Unconditional Parenting would agree that 123 magic is the opposite end of the discipline spectrum. However, a happy family is a functional family and while I am striving for the "unconditional" end of the discipline spectrum in our home I have to say that I needed 123 magic to give me a framework from which to start even thinking about how to cope with behaviour. I'm going way back here, but it was required reading when I was in teacher's college and I have seen it work time and time again.

So, yes I say buy the book and give it a try. At the end of the day, I'm glad I've read lots of conflicting books because not every situation is as black and white as each author would have you believe and I'm a big fan of having a large bag of tricks! Good luck!
 
#15 ·
I'm finally getting a chance to reply to this. Sorry I hadn't replied before. Thanks for all the replies. That is what I suspected, but I think I'll give the book a read and see what it has to say, because we do need help.

As far as the diet goes, yes diet is a big part of the puzzle, but because of some of the issues with my daughter, I dont' know how to make it better. We did elimanate dairy from her diet, and that made our situation go from completely intolerable to just crazy. However, my daughter is EXTREMELY stubborn about eating. She does not eat anything unless SHE decides she wants to eat. Her diet is junk, but I don't know what else to do about it. The theory that the child will eat once they are hungry does not apply to her. She has gone over a day and half without eating becuase we provided foods that she didn't like. She was so completely cranky one time and we took her in and they tested her blood sugar and it was critically low because SHE DOESN"T EAT! We have found a smattering of foods that she will eat, but they aren't what I would call healthy. So, I'm sure it would help if her diet was better, but it isn't and I dont' know how to fix it.
When I say that she is so completely over the top and not like the average 3 y.o. I really am serious. My one friend wasn't completely sure that I was serious about the diet thing until she came over to my house and tried to get Emily to eat an apple. Emily took a bite of the apple and thew up all over the place. So what am I supposed to do? Don't feed her? or give her junk? because if I give her healthy food, that has proven to be equivalent to not feeding her. So, these are just some of our struggles.

I also have problems with her extreme defiance because the defiance behaviors have involved her injuring my son on a regular basis. Some of the things I consider normal and some I don't. I dont' feel like I am in the norm because I do lurk here and read the posts and sometimes I just laugh because some of the suggestions would never ever ever work in our house. EVER! Sometimes the posts just seem down right laughable because it seems like we're not even talking about the same topics.
Some of the things I've read here, I've tried to implement and they just plain do not work. I've been putting off getting proffessional help for her for quite some time now and we do need it. I'm not wild about the concept of an outside person providing parenting advice either. But Emily isn't normal. she just isn't.
I dont' think its normal to throw up when you eat an apple becuase you don't like apples. I don't think its normal to go without eating for 36 hours and have a critically low blood sugar because you don't like the food your parents have provided. and I don't think its normal to do some of the behaviors that she does.
We'll see if the 123 book has anythign interesting to offer....if it does great, if not oh well.
Sorry if I'm rambling....I really have a lot of trouble putting into words how I feel about our problem. I could probably right an entire novel so I feel like summarizing is very difficult. I'm just trying to address why some of the suggestions just plain don't work for us.
Thanks for all the feedback though!
Amy
 
#16 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by roseselene
As far as the diet goes, yes diet is a big part of the puzzle, but because of some of the issues with my daughter, I dont' know how to make it better. We did elimanate dairy from her diet, and that made our situation go from completely intolerable to just crazy. However, my daughter is EXTREMELY stubborn about eating. She does not eat anything unless SHE decides she wants to eat. Her diet is junk, but I don't know what else to do about it. The theory that the child will eat once they are hungry does not apply to her. She has gone over a day and half without eating becuase we provided foods that she didn't like. She was so completely cranky one time and we took her in and they tested her blood sugar and it was critically low because SHE DOESN"T EAT! We have found a smattering of foods that she will eat, but they aren't what I would call healthy. So, I'm sure it would help if her diet was better, but it isn't and I dont' know how to fix it.
When I say that she is so completely over the top and not like the average 3 y.o. I really am serious. My one friend wasn't completely sure that I was serious about the diet thing until she came over to my house and tried to get Emily to eat an apple. Emily took a bite of the apple and thew up all over the place. So what am I supposed to do? Don't feed her? or give her junk? because if I give her healthy food, that has proven to be equivalent to not feeding her. So, these are just some of our struggles.
My kids have special needs, and some of the feeding issues you describe sound very similar to things we faced. One book that helped me was Just Take a Bite by Lori Ernsperger. I also spoke to the people at the Children's hospital oral feeding clinic and spoke to Kay Toomey (a web search will turn up many interviews with her). This part of it was not a discipline issue for us, but rather a sensory/oral motor/etc etc issue.

On another note, you might consider doing a search on the Special Needs forum. Even if your child doesn't have special needs, you may find something helpful there because we often need to develop strategies that don't fit any particular "box" when it comes to discipline.
 
#17 ·
"Just Take a Bite by Lori Ernsperger."

Excellent suggestion. I would also suggest "The Out of Sync Child" by Carol Kranowitz. You may also want to take a look at www.enzymestuff.com

The situation you are describing sounds like one where some professional help would be good to consider. An occupational therapist would be the one you'd want to see to evaluate for sensory integration problems.
 
#18 ·
Sorry you're going through this. I don't doubt that it's beyond some of the suggestions you read and more complicated. Anyway wrt the book, I watched the video and think it's worth a watch, although I'm not sure it's necessarily going to be a big, giant help considering the stuff you are dealing with. It seemed sort of elementary to me. I don't always have issues with time outs or counting, but I agree with Sarah here that consistency is exactly the problem I had with this book. I believe in always expecting the same out of my child and making that clear, but I don't always follow through the same way, for every minor infraction. It just seems too strict. He suggests counting and sending them to their room for everything. Now maybe that is necessary for extreme situations, until stuff gets under control, but that's what I didn't like about it.
 
#19 ·
If you believe that her behaviour is "not normal", then how do you envision 1,2,3 magic helping you?

The practice is based on the assumption that the child is able to comply with an order, and the only reason they don't is that the "consequences" are not unpleasant enough. I don't see how this fits in with a child who clearly has some underlying issues that are causing her "abnormal" behaviour.

Similarly, with the eating, it is not defiance. I was a very picky child and my mother and I battled every mealtime. What foods one wants to eat is based on more than just taste. It's also smell and textures, and I reacted violently to those. I feel for your DD (and you; my DD is similarly picky and it's a hot button issue for me) but again I don't see how coercing her into suppressing behaviours is going to help you here.
 
#20 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet68
If you believe that her behaviour is "not normal", then how do you envision 1,2,3 magic helping you?

The practice is based on the assumption that the child is able to comply with an order, and the only reason they don't is that the "consequences" are not unpleasant enough. I don't see how this fits in with a child who clearly has some underlying issues that are causing her "abnormal" behaviour.

Similarly, with the eating, it is not defiance. I was a very picky child and my mother and I battled every mealtime. What foods one wants to eat is based on more than just taste. It's also smell and textures, and I reacted violently to those. I feel for your DD (and you; my DD is similarly picky and it's a hot button issue for me) but again I don't see how coercing her into suppressing behaviours is going to help you here.
Well, I can't envision how it will help me because I haven't read it yet. I have no idea. I'm not into "coersion" but her constantly injuring my son has to stop.
I don't really think she is being defiant by not eating. I was just saying that I agree that her behavior would probably be better if she had a healthy diet; however, I have been completely unsuccessful at providing her a healthy diet -- that she will eat. I'm not associating her eating as a behavior problem. I'm associating her lack of eating as a root of the behavior problem but am at a complete lack of ideas on how to solve that since she won't eat anything.
Amy
 
#21 ·
Well, unless 1,2,3 Magic solves the eating problem then it seems it isn't going to help you. (btw, I am not saying you shouldn't read it; I agree with whoever that it's good to read everything you can)

And if you find a book that helps with the eating issue, pass it on to me!


Hang in there, mama.
 
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